Car uprooted by a bollard in Dublin

Sleipnir

txpjl wrote: »

Is that water in the left front head light (1:10)?

no its the indicator going.

Head The Wall

JHMEG wrote: »

None of the guidelines were followed.

Why should we follow english guidelines, this happened in Ireland. We have our own laws (as useless as they seem at times)

So the owners have to follow guidelines but the driver doesn't have to follow the no entry/bus only guidelilnes. Real smart

Shane732

Hagar wrote: »

The UK Dept of Transport official view on rising bollards.



Source = Link to DOT Website

A warning sign similar to these should be used.



The driver should get themselves a good solicitor.

Yup I agree a good solicitor should be able to win this one....

Stark

Head The Wall wrote: »

Why should we follow english guidelines, this happened in Ireland. We have our own laws (as useless as they seem at times)

So the owners have to follow guidelines but the driver doesn't have to follow the no entry/bus only guidelilnes. Real smart

Irish law doesn't have provision for bus lane markings that private estate owners put down themselves.

ART6

mickdw wrote: »

I am sure these things would be found to be illegal if they were fully challenged. I mean if someone is to drive the required distance behind a bus thereby driving safely etc and the bollard is flush with the road surface while in view from the drivers eye position, the driver cannot be responsible. How could someone be responsible for something that was not there until a time that it was not longer in their area of vision.

I'm inclined to agree. I don't subscribe to the theory that the driver, male or female, was necessarily an idiot and deserved all they got. I don't see it as at all funny because I wouldn't consider it funny if it happened to me. If cameras are fitted and fines are issued then those who see the bus station as a short cut would soon be dissuaded. Those who made a genuine mistake would (ruefully) pay the fine and try to be more careful in future. None of them would have had their cars written off. Perhaps the laughter and the insults should only be the reserve of those drivers who have never made a mistake, never misjudged a situation. People in glass houses etc....

JHMEG

What local authority area is that in?

I'd like to check the planning permission and see were all the conditions met. A tenner says they weren't.

Hagar

Can anybody see any "Bus gate enforcement cameras" in any of the pictures?

vibe666

Stark wrote: »

Irish law doesn't have provision for bus lane markings that private estate owners put down themselves.

there's the thing, it's a private estate ans afaik as such not a public highway. i've often wondered how the rules and regulations of public highways affect private estates like that.

for instance, (and sorry for wandering slightly OT, but I think the question of the relevence of the ROTR is still on topic) there have been times in the business parks around there where the garda traffic corps have been in there pulling over foreign cars inside the estate for not having an Irish reg, but i would have thought that inside the estate, they are technically not on the public highway and not subject to the same laws, or am I wrong?

i always thought if i had been in that position i would argue that i was not on a public highway and there was feck all they could do until i was on one, then park up and then go home on the bus and come back when they were gone.

of course i have no idea if that would work or not, but i always thought it would have to be worth a go.

so the question really, is if that whole business park/estate is a private road with public access, how do the ROTR apply and would they come out in defense of the driver or property owner/management in this case?

also, how does this affect an insurance claim?

Hagar wrote: »

Can anybody see any "Bus gate enforcement cameras" in any of the pictures?

yeah, there's one on the top of the bollard.

what do you think they mean when they say "enforcement cameras"?

Run_to_da_hills

Hagar wrote: »

Can anybody see any "Bus gate enforcement cameras" in any of the pictures?

If staff & security were trying to prevent the OP taking photos from his mobile phone they are hardly going to have all this recorded on CCTV.

DirkVoodoo

vibe666 wrote: »

there's the thing, it's a private estate ans afaik as such not a public highway. i've often wondered how the rules and regulations of public highways affect private estates like that.

for instance, (and sorry for wandering slightly OT, but I think the question of the relevence of the ROTR is still on topic) there have been times in the business parks around there where the garda traffic corps have been in there pulling over foreign cars inside the estate for not having an Irish reg, but i would have thought that inside the estate, they are technically not on the public highway and not subject to the same laws, or am I wrong?

i always thought if i had been in that position i would argue that i was not on a public highway and there was feck all they could do until i was on one, then park up and then go home on the bus and come back when they were gone.

of course i have no idea if that would work or not, but i always thought it would have to be worth a go.

so the question really, is if that whole business park/estate is a private road with public access, how do the ROTR apply and would they come out in defense of the driver or property owner/management in this case?

also, how does this affect an insurance claim?



yeah, there's one on the top of the bollard.

what do you think they mean when they say "enforcement cameras"?

32. (1) A bus lane shall be indicated by means of traffic sign number RUS 028 or traffic sign number RUS 029 used in association with traffic sign number RRM 024, and a contra flow bus lane shall be indicated by means of traffic sign number RUS 030 used in association with traffic sign number RRM 024.


(2) A person shall not enter a bus lane with a vehicle other than an omnibus or a pedal cycle during the period of operation of the bus lane which shall be indicated on an information plate.


(3) A person shall not enter a contra flow bus lane with a vehicle other than an omnibus.


(4) A person shall not enter a bus only street with a vehicle other than an omnibus except for the purpose of access.


(5) ( a ) Sub-articles (1) and (2) shall not apply to a vehicle crossing a with flow bus lane or a contra flow bus lane solely for the purpose—


(i) of entering or leaving premises or property adjacent to such a bus lane, or


(ii) of entering or leaving a road inset adjacent to such a bus lane in order to load or unload goods.


( b ) Sub-article (2) shall not apply to a taxi or a wheelchair accessible taxi which is being used in the course of business.

A bus lane is a bus lane according to that, whether it is on a private road or not it is legal as long as the signage is correct.

Otherwise your logic could extend to any traffic and parking regulation on a private road: stop sign, yield, traffic light...all could be ignored. In terms of legality, and it's a genuine question not trying to be rhetorical, is a private road actually recognised under the road traffic act? I know in terms of property what a private road is and the rights of access, but I want to know if the RTA recognises a private road.

JHMEG

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

A bus lane is a bus lane according to that, whether it is on a private road or not it is legal as long as the signage is correct.

Private property is private property. Unless it has been taken into the care of the local authority road markings are meaningless.

stop

JHMEG wrote: »

Private property is private property. Unless it has been taken into the care of the local authority road markings are meaningless.

Open to public means it is treated as a public place under road traffic act.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0003.html wrote:

"public place" means any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;

Hagar

Would you point out any of these signs in the OP please?

32. (1) A bus lane shall be indicated by means of traffic sign number RUS 028 or traffic sign number RUS 029 used in association with traffic sign number RRM 024, and a contra flow bus lane shall be indicated by means of traffic sign number RUS 030 used in association with traffic sign number RRM 024.

If the so called "bus lane" isn't indicated by the signage above then it isn't a bus lane.

That "Bus gate encforcement camera" sign is distinctly UK looking design and layout and probably doesn't fulfil any Irish signage legal requirements.

Source Irish Statute Book.ie

Run_to_da_hills

What is the BMW worth?

mickdw

Well if its an 09 520d, its about 33 to 35k. If it was a 530d or 535d, alot more

TJJP

Depends on the year, mileage, spec and all that. It's a 520d post '07 so guessing it's 07/08 somewhere between 24-30k, more like 6-8k now though...

Big Nasty

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

What is the BMW worth?

Not half as much as it was last week!

mickdw

Just looking at the last picture in the OP there. It shows the road from where the car came and imo, the road layout looks odd. There is only the one driving lane in that direction which I presume all vehicles can use. Then there is 'BUS ONLY' written on the road only metres before the bollard. So at that point, what is the car sopposed to do? Stop? Do a U turn? There seems to be a junction on the right if viewed from direction of travel of this car. That seems to be the only option for vehicles other than buses. That being the case, the road should have been split into normal driving lane & bus lane sooner and the normal driving lane should continue into that junction. It appears that if a car driver was following the road, they were left with nowhere else to go but follow the bus

jhegarty

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

A bus lane is a bus lane according to that, whether it is on a private road or not it is legal as long as the signage is correct.

Otherwise your logic could extend to any traffic and parking regulation on a private road: stop sign, yield, traffic light...all could be ignored. In terms of legality, and it's a genuine question not trying to be rhetorical, is a private road actually recognised under the road traffic act? I know in terms of property what a private road is and the rights of access, but I want to know if the RTA recognises a private road.

That's the law on how to sign post a bus lane.

Putting up one of those signs doesn't make something a bus lane, any more than me putting a bugatti badge on my car makes it a bugatti.

Run_to_da_hills

TJJP wrote: »

Depends on the year, mileage, spec and all that. It's a 520d post '07 so guessing it's 07/08 somewhere between 24-30k, more like 6-8k now though...

So I guess we can see management of this bus corridore company snooping around Merlin Motor auction next week for a replacement.

JHMEG

stop wrote: »

Open to public means it is treated as a public place under road traffic act.

Statue Book wrote:

"public place" means any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;

So, as the bollard blocks the road to public vehicular access it is by defintion a private road and the markings don't apply.

fuelinjection

Ouch, hope she is okay. And had no kids in the car at the time.

On the other hand it was a stupid thing to do, following a bus into an industrial estate. Some of them have barriers that come down right after the bus goes in. You have to call security to get them to raise it again, and you go in/out one vehicle at a time. She would have wrecked the barrier if she had done the same thing there.

We can all learn from this I think.

Head The Wall

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

A bus lane is a bus lane according to that, whether it is on a private road or not it is legal as long as the signage is correct.

Otherwise your logic could extend to any traffic and parking regulation on a private road: stop sign, yield, traffic light...all could be ignored. In terms of legality, and it's a genuine question not trying to be rhetorical, is a private road actually recognised under the road traffic act? I know in terms of property what a private road is and the rights of access, but I want to know if the RTA recognises a private road.

My opinion would be that if the private property is publicly accessible then the police can enforce the rules of the road in there.

If that was not the case wouldn't all private estates be a free for all with no laws applying ala

Head The Wall

Hagar wrote: »

If the so called "bus lane" isn't indicated by the signage above then it isn't a bus lane.

This one is painted on the ground - check the dimensions

JHMEG wrote: »

So, as the bollard blocks the road to public vehicular access it is by defintion a private road and the markings don't apply.

You're twisting words The statute book states "public access" not "public vehicular access" Big difference here

Cyclists and pedestrians can also use this lane making it publicly accessible private property

Hagar

Head The Wall wrote: »

This one is painted on the ground - check the dimensions

No, it isn't.

The official one is as Gaeilge whereas the bogus sign is in English. :D

JHMEG

Head The Wall wrote: »

You're twisting words The statute book states "public access" not "public vehicular access" Big difference here

No, you are being selective. Again, just for you:

Statute Book wrote:

"public place" means any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;

Jip

JHMEG wrote: »

What local authority area is that in?

I'd like to check the planning permission and see were all the conditions met. A tenner says they weren't.

It's Fingal.

conneem-TT

I think you'll find that the bus co. persued the planning and had it installed, which is usually the case for these bollards even in these locations, so I would say the management company would have no responsibility. And I'd say they would know what procedures have to be followed and what is required by them.

vibe666

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

A bus lane is a bus lane according to that, whether it is on a private road or not it is legal as long as the signage is correct.

Otherwise your logic could extend to any traffic and parking regulation on a private road: stop sign, yield, traffic light...all could be ignored. In terms of legality, and it's a genuine question not trying to be rhetorical, is a private road actually recognised under the road traffic act? I know in terms of property what a private road is and the rights of access, but I want to know if the RTA recognises a private road.

that was kinda my point, i don't actually know the legal status of a private road like that.

there's no public highway involved, it's a road that links together two business parks directly so i'm not sure how the law stands.

if i own a business park and i decide to fill it full of roads and post random speed limit signs and various other road markings does that make them legal?

if i make the speed limit through the whole place 5km/h can i enforce those limits and if so, how?

i'm not trying to be argumentative, i honestly don't know so i'm asking if anyone actually does.

sesna

Ha ha brilliant, Im having a great laugh at the lady who ruined her brand new BMW. Serves her right.
Right back to wondering how Im ever going to flog my 13 year old corolla...