Living in Ireland as a Muslim

irishconvert

http://mpac.ie/2010/02/05/so-the-irish-want-our-money/

I just saw the above article on the MPAC.ie site and the following quote stuck out

So Muslim money is good enough for the Irish, but not our rights? What’s the incentive on our part as Muslims? You’ve done little to encourage Islam, nothing to garner trust and everything to distance, marginalize and exclude us.

I have to say I have no idea what this guy is talking about. As an Irish convert to Islam I have never felt marginalised and excluded. I think we can practice our religion very freely and openly in Ireland and I have never come across any problems in this regard.

I am wondering how other Muslims in Ireland feel about this. Do you feel distance, marginalised and excluded by Irish people?

Z4K

Yeah kinda i suppose. I'm a muslim in a catholic school how do you think I feel

oceanclub

irishconvert wrote: »

http://mpac.ie/2010/02/05/so-the-irish-want-our-money/

I have to say I have no idea what this guy is talking about.

It's also worrying that Liam says (my highlighting):

So Muslim money is good enough for the Irish, but not our rights?

He saying there's no such thing as Irish muslims - there's Irish, and there's Muslims, two separate things. Language like this plays straight into the hands of racists and the hard-right.

It's almost as if MPAC want to deliberately stir up antagonism...

P.

oceanclub

Z4K wrote: »

Yeah kinda i suppose. I'm a muslim in a catholic school how do you think I feel

Sorry to hear that! Is there no local Educate Together school you could attend?

P.

wes

Well, I went to a Catholic school as a kid and never had any issues with it really, but that was just my experience.

I think the linked article is nonsensical. Personally, things are pretty good here for most people. Of course, being a part of a minority group, there will always be racism/bigotry, but personally I have found this to be rare, and the vast majority of people leave people to it.

oceanclub

wes wrote: »

Well, I went to a Catholic school as a kid and never had any issues with it

That's weird - most of us who were born Catholics had issues with them.



P.

wes

oceanclub wrote: »

That's weird - most of us who were born Catholics had issues with them.



P.

I got to skip all the Religious stuff, so I guess I got a better impression due to that.

oceanclub

wes wrote: »

I got to skip all the Religious stuff, so I guess I got a better impression due to that.

Actually, religion class back in my day (before '88) was grand, though I did get thrown out of class at least twice for arguing (I've never stopped since.) It was the Christian Brothers in general who were just, well, a little odd (one fella was a nice guy, the others, well....). I imagine it is very different these days!

P.

donaghs

Z4K wrote: »

Yeah kinda i suppose. I'm a muslim in a catholic school how do you think I feel

Is it bad?

My experience of Catholic school, and most people I know educated post-1980s was that there was very little Catholicism present. That was fine with me, although I don't think I only actually understood Catholicism properly until I read history in more detail, e.g. the Reformation. Most Religion in my school was of a very post-hippy variety - "its all the same God", "people should try and love one another", etc. Nice, worthy sentiments. But very short on specifics. All the same, I'm glad kids aren't having the Catechism beaten into them. There were some Muslim kids in my school and they were allowed to skip the religion class. They were normally able to to get a head start on homework and study, which seemed like an advantage.

ChocolateSauce

Z4K wrote: »

Yeah kinda i suppose. I'm a muslim in a catholic school how do you think I feel

Everyone who isn't a Catholic would feel that way; I know I did.

Secular schools would treat all people equally without prejudice to their religion.

EireMuzzie

irishconvert wrote: »

http://mpac.ie/2010/02/05/so-the-irish-want-our-money/

I just saw the above article on the MPAC.ie site and the following quote stuck out



I have to say I have no idea what this guy is talking about. As an Irish convert to Islam I have never felt marginalised and excluded. I think we can practice our religion very freely and openly in Ireland and I have never come across any problems in this regard.

I am wondering how other Muslims in Ireland feel about this. Do you feel distance, marginalised and excluded by Irish people?

Evidence that Islam cannot be practiced freely is demonstrated by the absolute lack of visibly practicing Muslims in the mainstream job market. Veiled and modestly covered females and bearded males are notable by their absence. Laws prohibit polyandry and Muslims are required to forsake this element of their religion. Then there's prayer times during the day, Friday prayer allowances, Eid-ul-Fitr and Adha holidays and that's only scratching the surface.

I'm personally happy that you feel that you can practice your religion without any bother, but please do not presume to posit your experience as the norm - it is not!

Tom Dunne

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Then there's prayer times during the day, Friday prayer allowances, Eid-ul-Fitr and Adha holidays and that's only scratching the surface.

I don't understand this bit. Could you clarify what exactly you mean by this?

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Evidence that Islam cannot be practiced freely is demonstrated by the absolute lack of visibly practicing Muslims in the mainstream job market. Veiled and modestly covered females and bearded males are notable by their absence. Laws prohibit polyandry and Muslims are required to forsake this element of their religion. Then there's prayer times during the day, Friday prayer allowances, Eid-ul-Fitr and Adha holidays and that's only scratching the surface.

I'm personally happy that you feel that you can practice your religion without any bother, but please do not presume to posit your experience as the norm - it is not!

Eoin, in the last 2 software companies I have worked in, in both companies worked Muslim women who wore hijab. If you have any _statistical_ evidence that practising Muslims are discriminated against in Ireland, please publish it. Otherwise, it just looks like another attempt by MPAC to create an artificial divide between Irish muslims and Irish non-muslims.

P

irishconvert

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I don't understand this bit. Could you clarify what exactly you mean by this?

I think he means that Muslims in Ireland are not given time off to pray the five daily prayers while at work, time off for Friday prayers or given days off for Eid-ul-Fitr and Adha

Tom Dunne

irishconvert wrote: »

I think he means that Muslims in Ireland are not given time off to pray the five daily prayers while at work, time off for Friday prayers or given days off for Eid-ul-Fitr and Adha

That's what I thought, just needed to clarify.

I would also like to clarify that as a Christian living in a Muslim country, the exact same applies - I don't get Sunday off, nor do I get Christmas, Easter, or any religious holiday, so it's a moot point.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

Eoin, in the last 2 software companies I have worked in, in both companies worked Muslim women who wore hijab. If you have any _statistical_ evidence that practising Muslims are discriminated against in Ireland, please publish it. Otherwise, it just looks like another attempt by MPAC to create an artificial divide between Irish muslims and Irish non-muslims.

P

I guess we'll have to take your word for that Ocean, I also saw a pig fly as we're telling stories. But even if we go along with your 'two' women in hijab, do you think 2 out of 50,000 is an indication that there is no discrimination?

EireMuzzie

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I don't understand this bit. Could you clarify what exactly you mean by this?

Practicing Muslims (and I must make the distinction) must pray 5 times per day, in congregation if possible. The Dhur and Asr prayers at certain time in the year fall within working hours. So Muslims would need about 10mins for each prayer. Do you know of any firm that makes this provision, if so please post full company name and address for confirmation - we don't want to rely on Ocean's 'oh, I know such-and-such)?

Practicing Muslims only celebrate two holidays per year, the eid-ul-fitr and the eid-ul-adha celebrations. No company in Ireland allows these as holiday and even school children are forced to take a day or two off as it is not recognized. It seems secular Ireland still defers to Christian holidays.

Frank Grimes

EireMuzzie wrote: »

I guess we'll have to take your word for that Ocean, I also saw a pig fly as we're telling stories. But even if we go along with your 'two' women in hijab, do you think 2 out of 50,000 is an indication that there is no discrimination?

I've also seen women in hijab working around Dublin as well as men with beards - in my last job there was at least 3 'visibly' Muslim guys working there. If you know people who are being actively discriminated against because they are Muslims you should get them to make a complaint under the equality legislation that's in place rather than posting vague statements on message boards, it would be more constructive for everyone.

EireMuzzie

Frank Grimes wrote: »

I've also seen women in hijab working around Dublin as well as men with beards - in my last job there was at least 3 'visibly' Muslim guys working there. If you know people who are being actively discriminated against because they are Muslims you should get them to make a complaint under the equality legislation that's in place rather than posting vague statements on message boards, it would be more constructive for everyone.

I haven't seen anything of the sort, no what makes your claim more valid than mine?

Saab Ed

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Practicing Muslims (and I must make the distinction) must pray 5 times per day, in congregation if possible. The Dhur and Asr prayers at certain time in the year fall within working hours. So Muslims would need about 10mins for each prayer. Do you know of any firm that makes this provision, if so please post full company name and address for confirmation - we don't want to rely on Ocean's 'oh, I know such-and-such)?

Practicing Muslims only celebrate two holidays per year, the eid-ul-fitr and the eid-ul-adha celebrations. No company in Ireland allows these as holiday and even school children are forced to take a day or two off as it is not recognized. It seems secular Ireland still defers to Christian holidays.

With all due respect this is still Catholic Ireland that we live in. As a non praticing catholic I really couldnt care less which holidays are observed at what ever time but to think that being a Muslim should entitle you in some way to sepearte working hours from the masses is just nuts. This is not a country governed by Religion, its a modern Western Democracy in which you either work the hours that you can work or you can freely choose to put your religion first and get a job that better fits thoses hours. You might notice if you look out the window that there are plenty of Catholics working today on the Sabath. Maybe Islam needs a rather large shake up to be brought into modern society if its really hindering your day so much.

Frank Grimes

EireMuzzie wrote: »

I haven't seen anything of the sort, no what makes your claim more valid than mine?

I never said your claim was invalid. You implied there is an active form of discrimination going on because of the absence of visibly practising Muslims in the workplace in Ireland. Myself and oceanclub have stated that we have seen visibly practising Muslims here. You are making the accusation, you need to substantiate your claim.

As I said, if you know people who have been discriminated against because they have a beard or wear a headscarf you should encourage them to make a complaint to the relevant bodies here.

EireMuzzie

Frank Grimes wrote: »

I never said your claim was invalid. You implied there is an active form of discrimination going on because of the absence of visibly practising Muslims in the workplace in Ireland. Myself and oceanclub have stated that we have seen visibly practising Muslims here. You are making the accusation, you need to substantiate your claim.

As I said, if you know people who have been discriminated against because they have a beard or wear a headscarf you should encourage them to make a complaint to the relevant bodies here.

They have, and I can tell you that a major store in Ireland(we're Irish) has a specific no beard clause and the Gardai actively discriminate against the hijab. That's but two prime examples. Even if we were to accept your unsubstantiated claims, that's but 5 out of 50,000. Hardly representative.

EireMuzzie

Saab Ed wrote: »

With all due respect this is still Catholic Ireland that we live in. As a non praticing catholic I really couldnt care less which holidays are observed at what ever time but to think that being a Muslim should entitle you in some way to sepearte working hours from the masses is just nuts. This is not a country governed by Religion, its a modern Western Democracy in which you either work the hours that you can work or you can freely choose to put your religion first and get a job that better fits thoses hours. You might notice if you look out the window that there are plenty of Catholics working today on the Sabath. Maybe Islam needs a rather large shake up to be brought into modern society if its really hindering your day so much.

It's called reasonable religious accommodation Saab, most modern liberal democracies employ it in some manner, Ireland needs to catch up. If Ireland as you claim is not ruled by religion, then the imposition of Christian holidays upon the masses is wholly unjustified. The Muslim call for some respect in relation to their needs is neither unreasonable nor a claim to being 'special'.

Frank Grimes

EireMuzzie wrote: »

They have, and I can tell you that a major store in Ireland(we're Irish) has a specific no beard clause and the Gardai actively discriminate against the hijab. That's but two prime examples. Even if we were to accept your unsubstantiated claims, that's but 5 out of 50,000. Hardly representative.

I agree that the Gardaí uniform policy needs to be updated, I don't know about the store you are referring to but that ban affects all men with beards, not just Muslims. Your original point was:

Evidence that Islam cannot be practiced freely is demonstrated by the absolute lack of visibly practicing Muslims in the mainstream job market.

You were not saying that there are certain aspects of Irish society that might hinder practising Muslims.

To further answer your original point, I completely forgot about hospitals here. Have you never seen a Muslim woman in a hijab working in a hospital over here? St. Vincent's even have a picture of one on their site: http://www.stvincents.ie/About_Us/About_Us.htm

EireMuzzie

Frank Grimes wrote: »

I agree that the Gardaí uniform policy needs to be updated, I don't know about the store you are referring to but that ban affects all men with beards, not just Muslims. Your original point was:

You were not saying that there are certain aspects of Irish society that might hinder practising Muslims.

To further answer your original point, I completely forgot about hospitals here. Have you never seen a Muslim woman in a hijab working in a hospital over here? St. Vincent's even have a picture of one on their site: http://www.stvincents.ie/About_Us/About_Us.htm

With regard to the store, and I'll paraphrase Egan on this - the store in question does indeed have this blanket ban, but this ban places more of a burden on practicing Muslim, Sikh and Jewish males than it does on other members of society. It indirectly discriminates.

I appreciate the St Vincents pic, there's even a token black person too - hardly the most compelling piece of evidence.

Frank Grimes

EireMuzzie wrote: »

I appreciate the St Vincents pic, there's even a token black person too - hardly the most compelling piece of evidence.

It's more evidence than you've produced.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

I appreciate the St Vincents pic, there's even a token black person too - hardly the most compelling piece of evidence.

If your organisation MPAC think that devout Muslims are being discriminated against, there is nothing stopping you employing an independent polling organization to get some objective figures on the issue. Otherwise, as Frank Grime points out, it just looks like another attempt to MPAC to stir up divisiveness.

Just to note that the campaign to remove restrictions on bearded Gardai is certainly one I would support.

P.

EireMuzzie

Frank Grimes wrote: »

It's more evidence than you've produced.

Really, a pic of a Muslim lady on the St. Vincents' site is your evidence? The Garda ban on hijabs is evidence, the ban on beards in a major store (we're Irish) is also evidence and the virtual absence of visible practicing Muslims in mainstream employment is the most damning indictment.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

If your organisation MPAC think that devout Muslims are being discriminated against, there is nothing stopping you employing an independent polling organization to get some objective figures on the issue. Otherwise, as Frank Grime points out, it just looks like another attempt to MPAC to stir up divisiveness.

Just to note that the campaign to remove restrictions on bearded Gardai is certainly one I would support.

P.

It isn't my organisation, unless you count my visits to the site as participation - in which case I'm also involved with boards.ie.

If pointing out the inadequacies of inclusion is divisive, then it's divisive.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

It isn't my organisation, unless you count my visits to the site as participation - in which case I'm also involved with boards.ie.

It's strange to claim to be merely an interested observer, when you set up your boards.ie account specifically to defend a claim about MPAC.ie, and have only ever posted about MPAC.ie.

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

It's strange to claim to be merely an interested observer, when you set up your boards.ie account specifically to defend a claim about MPAC.ie, and have only ever posted about MPAC.ie.

P.

Are you suggesting it is wrong to speak up against error? Should I simply let you continue to slander a Muslim while I know that the site doesn't say those things?

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Are you suggesting it is wrong to speak up against error? Should I simply let you continue to slander a Muslim while I know that the site doesn't say those things?

You seem to have a hard time following arguments. Let me lead you through this again:

1. You claim to be not involved in MPAC.ie.
2. However, you set up your user account on boards.ie specifically to defend MPAC.ie.
3. Also, you only ever post in relation to MPAC.ie.
4. You have never posted about any other topic other than MPAC.ie
5. Therefore, your claim to be not involved in MPAC.ie seems suspect.

I hope you are at least able to follow this; I can't really make myself any plainer.

P.

Frank Grimes

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Really, a pic of a Muslim lady on the St. Vincents' site is your evidence? The Garda ban on hijabs is evidence, the ban on beards in a major store (we're Irish) is also evidence and the virtual absence of visible practicing Muslims in mainstream employment is the most damning indictment.

Yet again, you said (and I'll emphasise the important bit):

Evidence that Islam cannot be practiced freely is demonstrated by the absolute lack of visibly practicing Muslims in the mainstream job market.

There is not an absolute lack of visibly practising Muslims in employment in Irish society. You are choosing to completely ignore what myself and oceanclub are saying about the Muslims we've worked with and have seen employed in Ireland.

If there was an absolute lack of visibly practising Muslims in Ireland why did Beaumount adapt their surgical uniform a few years back? (link)

The inflexibility re. Garda uniform and a store banning beards does not constitute a denial of the practise of Islam in Ireland, and equating these is not making your case any more credible than your passing of sarcastic remarks about posts that are contrary to what you're trying to put forward. You are trivialising discrimination by making these baseless claims.

EireMuzzie

1. You claim to be not involved in MPAC.ie.
Beyond visiting their site to check what you claim, I'm not - at the moment.
2. However, you set up your user account on boards.ie specifically to defend MPAC.ie.
Specifically? And your evidence for that is?
3. Also, you only ever post in relation to MPAC.ie.
And? I've only been here a while and was banned for a week. I am responding to what you have written and think if I did so on another thread it would make little sense.
4. You have never posted about any other topic other than MPAC.ie
When there's a topic of interest or when lies are told I will.
5. Therefore, your claim to be not involved in MPAC.ie seems suspect.
Suspect is the claim that defending the honour of a Muslim is equal to involvement.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

2. However, you set up your user account on boards.ie specifically to defend MPAC.ie.
Specifically? And your evidence for that is?

You registered your account on 3rd February of this year:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/member.php?u=304671

Your first post, on the same day, was in response to FriarMo's article about MPAC.ie on Feb 1st:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64302859#post64302859

Really, you're too easy. Tell Liam to send someone with a bit of brains (like Beverley) over here.

P.

dvpower

mpac.ie wrote:

Ireland shouldn’t get a sniff of the dinar and dirham until it respects Islam and Muslims and puts in place tangible measures to ensure that dignity and honour is enshrined in Irish law. As the old saying goes – You scratch our back, and we’ll scratch yours.

You'd think from reading this that MPAC.ie wasn't an Irish website at all.

Muslims in Ireland (Irish or not) benefit from the Irish economy; this sentiment smacks of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

The Recliner

EireMuzzie wrote: »

It's called reasonable religious accommodation Saab, most modern liberal democracies employ it in some manner, Ireland needs to catch up. If Ireland as you claim is not ruled by religion, then the imposition of Christian holidays upon the masses is wholly unjustified. The Muslim call for some respect in relation to their needs is neither unreasonable nor a claim to being 'special'.

Given this is your stance on the matter

Tom Dunne wrote: »

That's what I thought, just needed to clarify.

I would also like to clarify that as a Christian living in a Muslim country, the exact same applies - I don't get Sunday off, nor do I get Christmas, Easter, or any religious holiday, so it's a moot point.

How do you respond to this?

Iwasfrozen

Why did a person, who claims to stand for Islam call himself "Eiremuzzie", "Muzzie" being a racist term for "Muslim" ?

EireMuzzie

The Recliner wrote: »

Given this is your stance on the matter



How do you respond to this?

His religion should be respected and he reasonable religious accommodative measures should be in place according to the Shariah. The only place that this is not tolerated in the Hijaz, where only Islam can be the religion. It's a bit like the Vatican, one religion for that state etc.

The Recliner

EireMuzzie wrote: »

His religion should be respected and he reasonable religious accommodative measures should be in place according to the Shariah. The only place that this is not tolerated in the Hijaz, where only Islam can be the religion. It's a bit like the Vatican, one religion for that state etc.

OK

Was just wondering when you said Ireland should get with the times would you apply that in this case?

irishconvert

EireMuzzie wrote: »

I guess we'll have to take your word for that Ocean, I also saw a pig fly as we're telling stories. But even if we go along with your 'two' women in hijab, do you think 2 out of 50,000 is an indication that there is no discrimination?

I didn't know there were 50,000 hijab wearing Muslims in Ireland. Where did you get these figures from?

If you want proof that Muslim women are not discriminated watch this episode of Nationwide:

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1065406

At 8:10 you will see an interview with an Irish Rail engineer working at Limerick Junction. Her name is Huda Yousif, a Muslim woman who wears hijab.

oceanclub

irishconvert wrote: »

I didn't know there were 50,000 hijab wearing Muslims in Ireland. Where did you get these figures from?

I would love to know too. According to the 2006 census, there were 13,000 Muslim women in total in Ireland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Ireland

According to the 2006 Irish census, there are 32,539 Muslims (19,372 males and 13,167 females) living in the Republic of Ireland.[6] representing a 69% increase over the figures for the 2002 census (19.147). In 1991, the number of Muslims was below 4000 (3.873).[7]

The figure comes from here:

http://www.nccri.ie/pdf/spectrum9.pdf

P.

EireMuzzie

irishconvert wrote: »

I didn't know there were 50,000 hijab wearing Muslims in Ireland. Where did you get these figures from?

If you want proof that Muslim women are not discriminated watch this episode of Nationwide:

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1065406

At 8:10 you will see an interview with an Irish Rail engineer working at Limerick Junction. Her name is Huda Yousif, a Muslim woman who wears hijab.

Do you remember the token black man that firms would roll out in front of the papers and news to show how very forward thinking they were - you're sounding a bit like that at the moment.

I've already pointed out clear cases of indirect discrimination (Garda, stores), the virtual absence of visibly practicing Muslims in the workforce (despite the fact that they are usually better qualified and educated than their white Irish counterparts). It's difficult to get exact figures of employment discrimination toward Muslims because Islamophobia isn't recognized as a crime here (there's a surprise) but I've managed to find a few cases from the equality tribunal and will post later.

The fact is there is a problem, and the law as it stands compounds that problem by not recognizing specific prejudices toward visibly practicing Muslims.

As for the number, until the next census the figures are believed to be between 50 -58,000 http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/stephen-king/wearing-face-veils-in-modern-ireland-is-preposterous-but-dont-ban-them-111822.html

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

As for the number, until the next census the figures are believed to be between 50 -58,000 http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/stephen-king/wearing-face-veils-in-modern-ireland-is-preposterous-but-dont-ban-them-111822.html

A figure, preceded by "perhaps", plucked from the air by an Indo columnist, with no reference to its source.

Not only that, but it says "50,000 Muslims" while you use it to mean "50,000 Muslim women".

I take it you've never been in academia.

It's difficult to get exact figures of employment discrimination toward Muslims because Islamophobia isn't recognized as a crime here (there's a surprise)

http://www.equality.ie/index.asp?locID=75&docID=48#q2

Discrimimation in employment due to religion is specifically covered under equality legislation; there is no need to any further legislation and any Muslim can avail of it:

What are the nine grounds of discrimination?
The legislation prohibits discrimination on the following nine grounds:

[...]

•The religion ground: Different religious belief, background, outlook or none;

By the way, are you still denying you set up your boards.ie account specifically to respond to an anti-MPAC article? You've gone mum on that one:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64465412&postcount=35

P.

Saab Ed

EireMuzzie wrote: »

It's called reasonable religious accommodation Saab, most modern liberal democracies employ it in some manner, Ireland needs to catch up. If Ireland as you claim is not ruled by religion, then the imposition of Christian holidays upon the masses is wholly unjustified. The Muslim call for some respect in relation to their needs is neither unreasonable nor a claim to being 'special'.

You're having a laugh are you! " Reasonable religious accomodation" . In all fairness I doubt many muslim countries employ such a policy, infact I'd think its fair to say the very opposite would be true. Why should Western society change its day to day way of doing things to accomodate an Eastern belief. Secondly it doesnt even apply to Catholics here. If you're supposed to be driving a bus a 11am on a Sunday morning then you've got to drive the bus, end of. I fully respect your right to pratice your religion and as I said in my previous post Im not a religious person myself but I would consider myself a spiritual person. Should anybody suggest what I should think and believe then I would be greatly angered but if my religion would start to intrude on my day to day working life then thats my problem and not society. Day to day life and our routines in Ireland might have come from our past religious affinity but no religion dominates day to day life here anymore. Its just the way things are done for everybody. Islam didnt migrate west because of an affinity from non islamic people towards the religion, it came west with economic migration, another words a better life. Nodody here will tell you what to think , what religion to pratice etc etc. How much would you like to change? What if we just make Ireland a muslim country, then the very reason most economic migrants come here in the first place is gone. I like the Ireland were we can all think and pratice freely what we like when we like.

irishconvert

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Do you remember the token black man that firms would roll out in front of the papers and news to show how very forward thinking they were - you're sounding a bit like that at the moment.

You are the one who said there is an absence of visibly practicing Muslims in the workforce. I and other posters have pointed out examples to disprove what you say. You have yet to come up with any proof to back up your point. Have you never been to any hospital in the country? I would estimate that at least 25% of the doctors are Muslim.

EireMuzzie wrote: »

I've already pointed out clear cases of indirect discrimination (Garda, stores),

Ok, fair point about the Garda, although I'm sure if a Muslim man actually applied and was refused on the basis of his beard he would win an equality case and the rule would be changed. That rule had been here long before there were Muslims in Ireland and to date it has yet to be challenged. If you (or MPAC) are so concerned why don't you take a test case with the Equality Commission?

EireMuzzie wrote: »

the virtual absence of visibly practicing Muslims in the workforce (despite the fact that they are usually better qualified and educated than their white Irish counterparts).

Absolute rubbish. Are you telling me if I take a survey at Jummah prayer on Friday that all of the Muslims there will tell me they are unemployed? Are you employed?

EireMuzzie wrote: »

It's difficult to get exact figures of employment discrimination toward Muslims because Islamophobia isn't recognized as a crime here (there's a surprise) but I've managed to find a few cases from the equality tribunal and will post later.

The fact is there is a problem, and the law as it stands compounds that problem by not recognizing specific prejudices toward visibly practicing Muslims.

So have you taken any Equality cases? What are you doing apart from ranting and raving and trying to create tensions between Muslims and non-Muslims?

EireMuzzie wrote: »

As for the number, until the next census the figures are believed to be between 50 -58,000 http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/stephen-king/wearing-face-veils-in-modern-ireland-is-preposterous-but-dont-ban-them-111822.html

As oceanclub pointed out, there is no basis for that figure. The last census says there are approx 30,000 Muslims in Ireland. Unless the Examiner has reliable stats to back up their figure we cannot take it as being true.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie, has MPAC written to the Equality Authority asking if they would bring a case on behalf of a Muslim man denied permission to apply to the Gardai based on his facial hair?

P.

Tom Dunne

EirieMuzzie,I can't help but think you feel somewhat oppressed living in Ireland and feel you are a victim whose rights are being ignored.

As I have said, I live in a Muslim country, I don't get any Christian holidays off, I start my working week on a Sunday. I live within the restrictions put on consuming alcohol and consuming pork, two products which form an integral part of my life back home in Ireland. Ramadan last year was certainly an interesting introduction to Muslim culture for me, but I quite happily and respectfully observed the various customs and requirements that were in place for that time.

Yet you don't see me claiming oppression and demanding the local government be more accommodating to my needs and my beliefs. In fact, I have a fair idea that if I did start complaining about my needs and my beliefs, I would be directed towards the airport and the next flight home.

Saab Ed

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Yet you don't see me claiming oppression and demanding the local government be more accommodating to my needs and my beliefs. In fact, I have a fair idea that if I did start complaining about my needs and my beliefs, I would be directed towards the airport and the next flight home.

....and do you know what, proper order if you were shown the door. Its just a fact of life that some parts of the world think and act different to others. Everybody should respect the local way of doing things. There's not a hope in hell I'd chnge my working day for any religion be it Catholisism, Islam, what ever it is.

Mark Hamill

EireMuzzie wrote: »

the virtual absence of visibly practicing Muslims in the workforce

There is a muslim woman working at the desk in front of me, and a muslim woman working at the desk behind me. Altogether, there are over a dozen muslims working in the building I work (a science department in dublin university) and from talking to the muslims I work with (and from attending inter-university seminars), I know that there are plenty of muslims working in the science departments (and others) of other universities in Ireland, such as Trinity, UCD, DCU, DIT etc. so I dont know where you are getting your idea that there are no practising muslims in the workforce.

EireMuzzie wrote: »

(despite the fact that they are usually better qualified and educated than their white Irish counterparts).

Evidence please.

EireMuzzie wrote: »

The fact is there is a problem, and the law as it stands compounds that problem by not recognizing specific prejudices toward visibly practicing Muslims.

Well no, but thats because the law recognises discrimination against everyone equally. If the law was specific to recognising discrimination against muslims, then the law would be discriminating itself.

Mark Hamill

Saab Ed wrote: »

....and do you know what, proper order if you were shown the door. Its just a fact of life that some parts of the world think and act different to others. Everybody should respect the local way of doing things. There's not a hope in hell I'd chnge my working day for any religion be it Catholisism, Islam, what ever it is.

Everybody should just respect everybody full stop. If you only respect somebody because you are outnumbered in their country then thats hardly respect, is it?