Living in Ireland as a Muslim

The Recliner

Originally Posted by EireMuzzie View Post
His religion should be respected and he reasonable religious accommodative measures should be in place according to the Shariah. The only place that this is not tolerated in the Hijaz, where only Islam can be the religion. It's a bit like the Vatican, one religion for that state etc.
OK

Was just wondering when you said Ireland should get with the times would you apply that in this case?

Any chance you might oblige with a reply to the question posed above?

Tom Dunne

Mark Hamill wrote: »

If you only respect somebody because you are outnumbered in their country then thats hardly respect, is it?

I don't think it's a case of respect because you are outnumbered, it's a case of being respectful because I am conscious of the fact that I live and work in a different culture and that things are done differently to what I am accustomed to.

Just as I would expect somebody from a non-Christian background to be conscious of in Ireland.

Nodin

EireMuzzie wrote: »

.......... the virtual absence of visibly practicing Muslims in the workforce (despite the fact that they are usually better qualified and educated than their white Irish counterparts). l

I find it hard to comprehend the mindset that could claim such a thing.
They're there from medicine to retail, to the stereotype of the small newsagents.

oceanclub

It's also a case of balancing people's religious wishes with what is practical in a multicultural country. The Christian holy day is Sunday; the Muslim day Friday, the Hindu day is Tuesday and the Jewish day is Saturday.

So, do we give everyone all the holy days off? if so, we'd be down to a 3 day week. (Sounds great but I don't think it would be practical economically speaking).

Do we give everyone their holy day of choice off? Probably not practical in some types of jobs. After all, everyone doesn't get Sunday off necessarily either, certainly not in the retail or hospitality industries.

Or do we apply "Sunday working" laws to the holy days of other religions?

EireMuzzie suggests that if a company should allow Muslims to pray together 5 times a day. I don't see a problem with this; companies should extend flexi-time to accommodate such wishes.

P.

wes

Just to add my 2 cents to the work place comments. Plenty of Khan's (just one example) in the multi-national I work for (in fact I keep getting one of the others emails, as we have the same name), and I have worked with people from Hindu, Sikh, Muslims, Christian, and Atheist etc back grounds.

**EDIT**
I also grow a full beard most of the time, so I am personally very visible.

Mark Hamill

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I don't think it's a case of respect because you are outnumbered, it's a case of being respectful because I am conscious of the fact that I live and work in a different culture and that things are done differently to what I am accustomed to.

Just as I would expect somebody from a non-Christian background to be conscious of in Ireland.

I was responding to Saab Eds post. He said:

Its just a fact of life that some parts of the world think and act different to others. Everybody should respect the local way of doing things.

But then said

There's not a hope in hell I'd chnge my working day for any religion be it Catholisism, Islam, what ever it is.

And these seem like a contradiction to me. That he only advocates respecting other cultures when he is in them and has no other choice.

Saab Ed

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Everybody should just respect everybody full stop. If you only respect somebody because you are outnumbered in their country then thats hardly respect, is it?

Yes but what does respect really involve. Western society by and large shows alot more respect to Eastern values than the other way around. Respect in my head is realizing that we are all different and to use the old saying " when in Rome do as the Romans do " another words when in a non muslim country ( i.e Ireland, that allows for the freedom of religious rights to all ) then you must abide by those ways of life. Like wise when someone of a non muslim backround is in a muslim country ( or any other Denomination for that matter ) then they must go by the ways of life there too. Lets not turn this into a world were everybody is supposed to be the same , this multi -cultural society clap trap we hear about all the time is just nonsense. We live in a society of multiple cultures which is entirely different.

This is catholic Ireland and like it or not it is what it is. Muslim countries are muslim countries and im sure they wouldnt want to change that either. Could you imagine asking for Sunday off in Iran just because you're a catholic. It just wouldnt happen and I've no problem with that.

oceanclub

Saab Ed wrote: »

This is catholic Ireland

No it's not.

P.

Mark Hamill

Saab Ed wrote: »

Yes but what does respect really involve. Western society by and large shows alot more respect to Eastern values than the other way around. Respect in my head is realizing that we are all different and to use the old saying " when in Rome do as the Romans do " another words when in a non muslim country ( i.e Ireland, that allows for the freedom of religious rights to all ) then you must abide by those ways of life.

How is "when in Rome, do as Romans" actually respectful? Where is the respect from the Romans, in that phrase? Should they not allow for the beliefs of others too?

Saab Ed wrote: »

Like wise when someone of a non muslim backround is in a muslim country ( or any other Denomination for that matter ) then they must go by the ways of life there too.

Oh they should, buts that because of the dangers of breaking the laws on different countries, but dont try to fool yourself into thinking that their is some kind of mutual respect going on here, there isn't.

Saab Ed wrote: »

Lets not turn this into a world were everybody is supposed to be the same , this multi -cultural society clap trap we hear about all the time is just nonsense.

Who said what now?

Saab Ed wrote: »

We live in a society of multiple cultures which is entirely different.

And respect in such a world is making allowances for all cultures, regardless of wether they are represented by an entire country or one single individual.

Saab Ed wrote: »

This is catholic Ireland and like it or not it is what it is.

Really? You said above that Ireland allows religious freedom to all, these two statements are contradicting each other.

Saab Ed wrote: »

Muslim countries are muslim countries and im sure they wouldnt want to change that either. Could you imagine asking for Sunday off in Iran just because you're a catholic. It just wouldnt happen and I've no problem with that.

Really? You are happy with every culture being the way it is? You dont think there is any chnages they should make in order to improve themselves? You are happy with the christian fundamentalist south of USA who have no problem with executing mentally unstable and think that creationism should be given equal time in science class as evolution? No problem with the fundamentalist muslims in somalia who execute raped women for adultery?

irishconvert

EireMuzzie, I and other posters have given you many examples of Muslims in the Irish workforce. You have not come up with any proof to back up your claims. Does your silence mean you accept you were wrong or do you plan to respond?

EireMuzzie

irishconvert wrote: »

EireMuzzie, I and other posters have given you many examples of Muslims in the Irish workforce. You have not come up with any proof to back up your claims. Does your silence mean you accept you were wrong or do you plan to respond?

I'm afraid it'll take more than a picture of a hijabed woman to convince me that the Irish workforce caters in any meaningful way for visibly practicing Muslims. Unsubstantiated 'I sit opposite a woman in hijab' claims simply don't count.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

I'm afraid it'll take more than a picture of a hijabed woman to convince me that the Irish workforce caters in any meaningful way for visibly practicing Muslims. Unsubstantiated 'I sit opposite a woman in hijab' claims simply don't count.

Well, your claim that "the Irish workforce [doesn't] cater in any meaningful way for visibly practicing Muslims" is also unsubstantiated. You should either back it up with statistics, or, as Hobbes has warned, withdraw it.

P.

irishconvert

EireMuzzie wrote: »

I'm afraid it'll take more than a picture of a hijabed woman to convince me that the Irish workforce caters in any meaningful way for visibly practicing Muslims. Unsubstantiated 'I sit opposite a woman in hijab' claims simply don't count.

When were you last in a hospital? Walk into any of the Dublin hospitals and you will see lots of Muslim doctors. Talk to people next time you are in the Mosque and ask how many are employed. You really don't have to look very far to find Muslims in the workforce. I even saw a hijab woman driving a Dublin Bus one day.

oceanclub

irishconvert wrote: »

When were you last in a hospital? Walk into any of the Dublin hospitals and you will see lots of Muslim doctors. Talk to people next time you are in the Mosque and ask how many are employed. You really don't have to look very far to find Muslims in the workforce. I even saw a hijab woman driving a Dublin Bus one day.

I was at a gig last night where I estimate there were 200-300 Muslims. Many were "visibly" so (hijabbed, for example). All the ones I talked to were working. Another anecdote of the pot there.

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

I was at a gig last night where I estimate there were 200-300 Muslims. Many were "visibly" so (hijabbed, for example). All the ones I talked to were working. Another anecdote of the pot there.

P.

At a gig - Muslims, well that says it all. Anyway could you please substantiate that claim or withdraw it.

EireMuzzie

irishconvert wrote: »

When were you last in a hospital? Walk into any of the Dublin hospitals and you will see lots of Muslim doctors. Talk to people next time you are in the Mosque and ask how many are employed. You really don't have to look very far to find Muslims in the workforce. I even saw a hijab woman driving a Dublin Bus one day.

How can you tell they are Muslim? Would you consider the medical profession mainstream?

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

At a gig - Muslims, well that says it all.

Says what all? Please explain. Or do you not count Muslims who listen to music? Are you now saying that it's actually "visible Muslims who don't listen to music" who are discriminated against in the Irish workplace?

Here's a pic (not sure if this is public):

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?pid=125119&id=100000443957107

P.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Would you consider the medical profession mainstream?

Hmm. So it's now "visible Muslims who don't listen to music and aren't in the medical profession" who you think are discriminated against?

Reminds me of this sketch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

Says what all? Please explain. Or do you not count Muslims who listen to music? Are you now saying that it's actually "visible Muslims who don't listen to music" who are discriminated against in the Irish workplace?

Here's a pic (not sure if this is public):

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?pid=125119&id=100000443957107

P.

As you ask, music is haram and forbidden to Muslims. But I'm not sure how 'muslims' at your 'gig' substantiates your claim that the Irish workforce caters in any meaningful way for visibly practicing Muslims

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

As you ask, music is haram and forbidden to Muslims.

So, just to be clear on this - you do not count Muslims who listen to music as Muslims for the purposes of this discussion?

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

So, just to be clear on this - you do not count Muslims who listen to music as Muslims for the purposes of this discussion?

P.

This sin does not suddenly make them non-Muslims.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

This sin does not suddenly make them non-Muslims.

That's grand so - in that case, your point about music in the context of a discussion about involvement in the job market was meaningless, and you should delete it.

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

That's grand so - in that case, your point about music in the context of a discussion about involvement in the job market was meaningless, and you should delete it.

P.

You mentioned 'Muslims' being at your 'gig', thereby introducing the aspect of music as if it were somehow normal in Islam. My correction of your error was and is necessary to this discussion.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

You mentioned 'Muslims' being at your 'gig', thereby introducing the aspect of music as if it were somehow normal in Islam. My correction of your error was and is necessary to this discussion.

Er, it wasn't my gig. (Incidentally, there were three bands who were either all or partly Muslim.)

I was just pointing out that I was at an event where there were Irish Muslims who had jobs. The music aspect of the event is incidental. There's no error, so please withdraw your remark.

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

Well, your claim that "the Irish workforce [doesn't] cater in any meaningful way for visibly practicing Muslims" is also unsubstantiated. You should either back it up with statistics, or, as Hobbes has warned, withdraw it.

P.

Your counter claim that it does cater for visibly practicing Muslims also needs verifying and should be backed up with statistics or, as Hobbes has warned, withdraw it.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

Er, it wasn't my gig. (Incidentally, there were three bands who were either all or partly Muslim.)

I was just pointing out that I was at an event where there were Irish Muslims who had jobs. The music aspect of the event is incidental. There's no error, so please withdraw your remark.

P.

And you spoke to these Muslims about their jobs? Could you verify that please or withdraw your remark.

The music aspect was introduced by you, if it wasn't important I'm sure you wouldn't have mentioned it.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Your counter claim that it does cater for visibly practicing Muslims also needs verifying and should be backed up with statistics or, as Hobbes has warned, withdraw it.

I actually made no counter claim whatsoever. I'm the one who pointed out that swapping anecdotes is meaningless. So there's nothing for Hobbes to do here. I'm neither claiming that Muslims are discriminated against or not and am agnostic about it.

However, you are the one who originally made the claim that Muslims are discriminated against. Therefore it's up to you to substantiate this claim by providing statistical evidence.

P.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

And you spoke to these Muslims about their jobs?

Yes, I did I'm not sure how I can verify I talked to people - I don't normally tape record all my conversations.

The music aspect was introduced by you, if it wasn't important I'm sure you wouldn't have mentioned it.

Well, let me just say I was at an event last night then, if it makes you feel more comfortable that I don't use the word "m*sic" in the discussion.

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

I actually made no counter claim whatsoever. I'm the one who pointed out that swapping anecdotes is meaningless. So there's nothing for Hobbes to do here. I'm neither claiming that Muslims are discriminated against or not and am agnostic about it.

However, you are the one who originally made the claim that Muslims are discriminated against. Therefore it's up to you to substantiate this claim by providing statistical evidence.

P.

You are asking for the impossible, and you know it. Statistical evidence isn't available simply because Islamophobia and religious discrimination against Muslims is not recognized as a crime.

There is however evidence that the Garda discriminate, and a well known Irish store also insists on men being 'clean-shaven' - whatever clean is supposed to mean??

Then of course we have two ministers from Fine Gael and Labour suggesting that the hijab is not part of Irish culture and Muslims should assimilate - it's not difficult to envisage a transfer of this kind of thinking to the workplace.

The HSE is a different issue, and should not be considered mainstream but specialist. It remains probably the only profession that has made any efforts to accommodate Muslims and other minorities.

hivizman

EireMuzzie wrote: »

There is however evidence that the Garda discriminate, and a well known Irish store also insists on men being 'clean-shaven' - whatever clean is supposed to mean??

Thanks for providing the link to the case involving the "well-known Irish store". What puzzles me, though, is that the store was found by the Labour Court to have discriminated against the male employee with the beard and was ordered to reinstate him:

Taking the dress code as a whole, the Court is satisfied that it operated in the case of the complainant in a way which restricted his freedom to determine his own appearance to a significantly greater degree than it does in the case of women. This constituted unfavourable treatment on grounds of gender. The complainant was dismissed solely because he refused to comply with this code. It follows that the dismissal was discriminatory and unlawful.

The case was heard in 2003. Was the decision overturned on appeal?

irishconvert

EireMuzzie, are YOU employed?

Out of all the Muslims you personally know, how many are employed and how many are unemployed?

The Recliner

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Your counter claim that it does cater for visibly practicing Muslims also needs verifying and should be backed up with statistics or, as Hobbes has warned, withdraw it.

Can you please stop pulling the verify card

You know that not everything can be backed up, you have used that defence yourself

Somebody talking to people at an event or people relaying info on their work mates cannot be verified but are personal experience, you know this so please stop using it to avoid discussion

EireMuzzie

hivizman wrote: »

Thanks for providing the link to the case involving the "well-known Irish store". What puzzles me, though, is that the store was found by the Labour Court to have discriminated against the male employee with the beard and was ordered to reinstate him:



The case was heard in 2003. Was the decision overturned on appeal?

It wasn't, but I understand it continues to be a condition imposed on men seeking employment there to this day.

EireMuzzie

irishconvert wrote: »

EireMuzzie, are YOU employed?

Out of all the Muslims you personally know, how many are employed and how many are unemployed?

Are you asking for an exact figure?

EireMuzzie

A 2008 survey found that 27% of Muslim respondents felt they were discriminated against. This study suggests that cases of discrimination reflected in Equality Tribunal cases are but the tip of the iceberg. And as has been mentioned previously, with Islamophobia not being recognized as a crime, coupled with the admission in this report - discrimination against minorities in general and Muslims specifically is a serious issue. Something I don't believe anyone should be 'agnostic' about.

irishconvert

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Are you asking for an exact figure?

Lets say I am asking for a reliable estimate.

And tell me, are you employed?

hivizman

EireMuzzie wrote: »

A 2008 survey found that 27% of Muslim respondents felt they were discriminated against. This study suggests that cases of discrimination reflected in Equality Tribunal cases are but the tip of the iceberg. And as has been mentioned previously, with Islamophobia not being recognized as a crime, coupled with the admission in this report - discrimination against minorities in general and Muslims specifically is a serious issue. Something I don't believe anyone should be 'agnostic' about.

Again, thanks for the link, this time to the study The Experience of Discrimination in Ireland, published in 2008 by the Equality Authority and the Economic and Social Research Institute. It is possible to download the full report, around 110 pages - there's a link on the Equality Authority's website.

The Report is interesting in that it makes clear that religious belief is one of the nine grounds on which it is illegal to discriminate in Ireland. Discrimination is usually understood as relating to employment and to the provision of goods and services, which means that there are large areas of human interaction not covered by the existing legislation. However, there is no question that it is illegal to discriminate against anyone in the workplace on grounds of religious belief. Whether in practice the law is effectively enforced is another matter.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

A 2008 survey found that 27% of Muslim respondents felt they were discriminated against.

EireMuzzie, in your original post in the thread, you said that "Islam cannot be practiced freely" because "Laws prohibit polyandry and Muslims are required to forsake this element of their religion". Presumably you feel that the current marriage law means you are discriminated against?

P.

hivizman

More material from The Experience of Discrimination in Ireland:

12.5% of Muslims felt discriminated against in the workplace and 16.7% felt discriminated against in looking for work. However, a factor complicating the interpretation of this statistic is that many Muslims in Ireland are in the category "Asian/Asian Irish", and of this category, 16.7% reported that they experienced discrimination in the workplace (though only 7.1% while looking for work). Interestingly, while workplace discrimination reported by Roman Catholics and members of the Church of Ireland was roughly the same (5%), as many as 10% of the members of other Christian denominations reported workplace discrimination.

Respondents to the survey reported in this document were asked to state the ground or grounds on which they considered that they had been discriminated against. The most common ground was age (19.3%), followed by nationality/race/ethnicity (16.3%). Religious belief was stated to be a ground in only 0.6% of cases. It was marginally more likely to be reported as a ground for discrimination by men than by women. Focusing just on work-related discrimination, religious belief was reported as a ground for discrimination in 1% of cases.

Page 46 of the Report includes an interesting passage:

Muslims record the highest “raw” rate of discrimination, however, when other factors are accounted for in the model, they do not differ significantly from Catholics, neither do Church of Ireland respondents. The model results do show that “other Christian”, “other religion” and “no religion” groups are all more vulnerable than Catholics, even after nationality and ethnicity have been controlled, and that these characteristics overlap.

I interpret this as suggesting that discrimination experienced by Muslims in Ireland isn't simply because they are Muslims, but rather it is the consequence of the fact (as shown in the 2006 Census data) that more Muslims in Ireland are not Irish citizens and are in minority ethnic groups than the national average.

oceanclub

hivizman wrote: »

"Muslims record the highest “raw” rate of discrimination, however, when other factors are accounted for in the model, they do not differ significantly from Catholics, neither do Church of Ireland respondents.

So essentially, Muslim discrimination mainly consists of racial discrimination against Asians in general; something I'm unfortunately not surprised about. In which case, only racial awareness, anti-racial measures, and enforcing anti-racist discrimination laws is the way to go - not, as EireMuzzie seems to suggest, legalising polygamy.

There's a long way to go for Ireland to treat all races equally. But it's an exaggeration to say as EireMuzzie does that Ireland doesn't allow Muslims to practise freely or treats Muslims with absolutely no respect.

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

So essentially, Muslim discrimination mainly consists of racial discrimination against Asians in general; something I'm unfortunately not surprised about. In which case, only racial awareness, anti-racial measures, and enforcing anti-racist discrimination laws is the way to go - not, as EireMuzzie seems to suggest, legalising polygamy.

There's a long way to go for Ireland to treat all races equally. But it's an exaggeration to say as EireMuzzie does that Ireland doesn't allow Muslims to practise freely or treats Muslims with absolutely no respect.

P.

There's an old saying Ocean, 'he who carries the coal, feels the heat'. Why not grow that goatee into a full beard, wear a thobe and see what it's like for a week or so - I'm confident you'd change your mind.

EireMuzzie

irishconvert wrote: »

Lets say I am asking for a reliable estimate.

And tell me, are you employed?

50/50 I'd say - and from the 50% that work it is mainly menial labour well below their qualifications. For example there's a fully qualified chemist working in a halal takeaway, etc.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

There's an old saying Ocean, 'he who carries the coal, feels the heat'. Why not grow that goatee into a full beard, wear a thobe and see what it's like for a week or so - I'm confident you'd change your mind.

Do you reckon that as an atheist, I would get the same reaction if I wore a long beard and robe?

P.

irishconvert

EireMuzzie wrote: »

50/50 I'd say - and from the 50% that work it is mainly menial labour well below their qualifications. For example there's a fully qualified chemist working in a halal takeaway, etc.

Does he think he can't get work as a chemist being Muslim or are there other factors (e.g. not many jobs in that sector). I have two non-Muslim Irish friends, both with Master Degrees in Science, both unemployed for over 6 months now.

You have not told us if you are employed despite me asking 3 times now.

donaghs

EireMuzzie wrote: »

There's an old saying Ocean, 'he who carries the coal, feels the heat'. Why not grow that goatee into a full beard, wear a thobe and see what it's like for a week or so - I'm confident you'd change your mind.

Try dressing up in full Orthodox Christian garb with a big beard, or as a Buddist monk, and you'll get some funny looks too. Get over yourself.

EireMuzzie

donaghs wrote: »

Try dressing up in full Orthodox Christian garb with a big beard, or as a Buddist monk, and you'll get some funny looks too. Get over yourself.

Are they obligatory dress codes for those faiths? If so, then it would be discriminatory for any potential employer to make the removal of said clothing/beards a condition of employment - try getting over yourself mate!

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Are they obligatory dress codes for those faiths? If so, then it would be discriminatory for any potential employer to make the removal of said clothing/beards a condition of employment - try getting over yourself mate!

I didn't realise that robes were obligatory garb for Muslims, no matter what their culture. Certainly, I've never seen Malaysian muslims wearing robes. Does this mean that you could never work in a job that required you to wear other than robes?

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

I didn't realise that robes were obligatory garb for Muslims, no matter what their culture. Certainly, I've never seen Malaysian muslims wearing robes. Does this mean that you could never work in a job that required you to wear other than robes?

P.

They aren't, but loose clothing that does not show the shape is a must for males. The garment should also be above the ankles and of course a fist-length beard is an obligation.
A thobe (robe) fits all the criteria regarding garments but isn't a must.

irishconvert

irishconvert wrote: »

You have not told us if you are employed despite me asking 3 times now.

Are you going to answer this or can we assume you are employed, thus your arguement about Muslims not being in employment is utter tosh?

Are you employed? If so, what are you employed as?

The Recliner

irishconvert wrote: »

Are you going to answer this or can we assume you are employed, thus your arguement about Muslims not being in employment is utter tosh?

Are you employed? If so, what are you employed as?

Can I also add to this

You have been asked direct questions several times in this thread which you have avoided answering or ignored

Boards is a place for discussion, if you get involved in a discussion then you reply to questions asked or at least acknowledge them

If you continue to ignore questions put to you (unless you have a valid reason for not answering) we will have to assume you are not interested in discussion and assume you have an agenda to push or are here to stir and take the appropriate steps as per the charter

This forum is a community, a small one maybe and we may not all get along or agree but that is ok, however in a community you engage with one another and if you aren't willing to do that then you have no part in the community