Living in Ireland as a Muslim

EireMuzzie

The Recliner wrote: »

Can I also add to this

You have been asked direct questions several times in this thread which you have avoided answering or ignored

Boards is a place for discussion, if you get involved in a discussion then you reply to questions asked or at least acknowledge them

If you continue to ignore questions put to you (unless you have a valid reason for not answering) we will have to assume you are not interested in discussion and assume you have an agenda to push or are here to stir and take the appropriate steps as per the charter

This forum is a community, a small one maybe and we may not all get along or agree but that is ok, however in a community you engage with one another and if you aren't willing to do that then you have no part in the community

It's a personal question, one which I'm under no obligation to answer, in fact from a charter perspective the questioner has been overly inquisitive and should be asked to cease.

Whether I'm employed or not is irrelevant to the topic at hand, one Muslim employed or not as the case may be does not detract from the claim that visibly practicing Muslims are relatively rare in the Irish workforce.

irishconvert

EireMuzzie wrote: »

It's a personal question, one which I'm under no obligation to answer, in fact from a charter perspective the questioner has been overly inquisitive and should be asked to cease.

Whether I'm employed or not is irrelevant to the topic at hand, one Muslim employed or not as the case may be does not detract from the claim that visibly practicing Muslims are relatively rare in the Irish workforce.

So reading between the lines you are employed.

Your original claim of :

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Evidence that Islam cannot be practiced freely is demonstrated by the absolute lack of visibly practicing Muslims in the mainstream job market

has now been watered down to

EireMuzzie wrote: »

visibly practicing Muslims are relatively rare in the Irish workforce

I suggest that you accept you were incorrect in your earlier claim.

In my opinion people such as yourself and MPAC do more damage to Irish Muslims than good with outrageous claims that do not stand up to scrutiny. MPAC and the people who support them are divisive and are trying to create tension between Muslims and non-Muslims as well as between Muslims. This is the reason Muslims are so weak in this day and age, because we spend so much time bickering and infighting. It makes me wonder who funds MPAC and what their true motives really are.

The Recliner

EireMuzzie wrote: »

It's a personal question, one which I'm under no obligation to answer, in fact from a charter perspective the questioner has been overly inquisitive and should be asked to cease.

Whether I'm employed or not is irrelevant to the topic at hand, one Muslim employed or not as the case may be does not detract from the claim that visibly practicing Muslims are relatively rare in the Irish workforce.

You are of course entitled not to answer questions for the reasons you have stated

However it would be appreciated if you acknowledged the questions and said such, it helps prevent tensions and ill feeling growing in a forum

And if there are posts that you think are against the charter then please feel free to use the report post button and we will look into them

Thanks
Rec

*edit* I do actually think the question is relevant to the debate as it helps inform the position you are posting from

EireMuzzie

irishconvert wrote: »

So reading between the lines you are employed.

Your original claim of :


has now been watered down to


I suggest that you accept you were incorrect in your earlier claim.

In my opinion people such as yourself and MPAC do more damage to Irish Muslims than good with outrageous claims that do not stand up to scrutiny. MPAC and the people who support them are divisive and are trying to create tension between Muslims and non-Muslims as well as between Muslims. This is the reason Muslims are so weak in this day and age, because we spend so much time bickering and infighting. It makes me wonder who funds MPAC and what their true motives really are.

Hardly watered down when the only evidence you have to the contrary is a picture of a woman in hijab on a hospital website and numerous anecdotal quips such as 'I saw one yesterday'.
I'm not keen on being lumped in with MPAC as I don't know enough about them to accept any association, but I do admire their position. They tell it as they see it, you don't seem to like that.

irishconvert

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Hardly watered down when the only evidence you have to the contrary is a picture of a woman in hijab on a hospital website and numerous anecdotal quips such as 'I saw one yesterday'.

I have provided evidence. I have told you where you can find evidence (walk into any hospital and you will find lots of Muslim doctors, ask brothers and sisters in the Mosque, lots of them have jobs in Ireland).

You made this claim without providing any back up:

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Evidence that Islam cannot be practiced freely is demonstrated by the absolute lack of visibly practicing Muslims in the mainstream job market. Veiled and modestly covered females and bearded males are notable by their absence.

I posted proof, a link to this video:

irishconvert wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1065406

At 8:10 you will see an interview with an Irish Rail engineer working at Limerick Junction. Her name is Huda Yousif, a Muslim woman who wears hijab.

You have provided absolutly NOTHING to back up your point. You do know that the charter of this forum requires you to back up what you say with evidence (rule #4)? Can you please provide some evidence or else withdraw your remark or you will face another ban

RosslareChap

EireMuzzie wrote: »

There's an old saying Ocean, 'he who carries the coal, feels the heat'. Why not grow that goatee into a full beard, wear a thobe and see what it's like for a week or so - I'm confident you'd change your mind.

The rules on beards in Islam is just enough beard so it can be seen from 30 yards or so, a few days unshaven is sufficient.

As for lack of women with hijabs in the Gardai, how many women without hijabs will you see in the Iranian Police force for example, or working in any government departments, or even being allowed to walk along the street without being arrested. Likewise in many Muslim countries!!

Sort your own house out first before starting to point out what is wrong in other peoples homes!!.

The descrimination ( if any ) against Muslims in Ireland is far less than that against non-Muslims in Muslim countries!!

EireMuzzie

RosslareChap wrote: »

The rules on beards in Islam is just enough beard so it can be seen from 30 yards or so, a few days unshaven is sufficient.

As for lack of women with hijabs in the Gardai, how many women without hijabs will you see in the Iranian Police force for example, or working in any government departments, or even being allowed to walk along the street without being arrested. Likewise in many Muslim countries!!

Sort your own house out first before starting to point out what is wrong in other peoples homes!!.

The descrimination ( if any ) against Muslims in Ireland is far less than that against non-Muslims in Muslim countries!!

I wasn't aware that a liberal democratic society measures itself against those who make no such claim Rosslare? If that's the case then at least be honest about it and drop the charade.
I'd really like to see evidence for your claim regarding the beard, from the Quran and Sunnah of course. You've now made a claim and IrishConvert has demonstrated he's a stickler for charter rules in this regard. So, substantiate the claim or you may be in line for a ban - if of course there is consistency.

EireMuzzie

irishconvert wrote: »

I have provided evidence. I have told you where you can find evidence (walk into any hospital and you will find lots of Muslim doctors, ask brothers and sisters in the Mosque, lots of them have jobs in Ireland).

You made this claim without providing any back up:


I posted proof, a link to this video:


You have provided absolutly NOTHING to back up your point. You do know that the charter of this forum requires you to back up what you say with evidence (rule #4)? Can you please provide some evidence or else withdraw your remark or you will face another ban

You've chosen ONE profession to bolster your claim Irishconvert, how about looking at the Education sector - any visibly practicing Muslims there (outside of the two Muslim schools that is)????Or the Gardai, any there? Or TDs, the Dail, etc - any there? In fact like our UK neighbours there is a woeful under representation of Muslims in higher professions and those fortunate enough to be working are more often than not marginalised in ethnic-based industries. There aren't any available surveys here because typically no one really cares until an issue is made of it. But suffice to say, if it is true of our UK neighbour then you can be doubly sure the situation is worse in this country.
If it's easier for you to ban, rather than face the facts - then so be it.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

So, substantiate the claim or you may be in line for a ban - if of course there is consistency.

I'll say this much - you have chutzpah.

P.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

There aren't any available surveys because typically no one really cares until an issue is made of it.

...apart from a 110 page report which you highlighted:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64520610&postcount=88

...which appears to conclude that discrimination against Muslims primarily consists of discrimination against Asians in general.

Yet, to you, the only issue is discrimination against Muslims, as if that kind of discrimination was exceptional in Ireland - hence your claim that:

the absolute lack of visibly practicing Muslims in the mainstream job market

That is to say, absolutely no visibly practising Muslims. This is has been shown to be false.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64545661#post64545661

As pointed out, you then started backtracking, saying that:

"visibly practicing Muslims are relatively rare in the Irish workforce"

This in itself is hardly a surprise. To you, a "visibly practising Muslim" is one with a long beard and a robe. Muslims wearing long beards and robe are relatively rare in Ireland, period. I lived and worked in the city centre until about a year ago. In that time, I saw a handful of people dressed as such. Of course, they are going to be relatively rare in the workforce.

But suffice to say, if it is true of our UK neighbour then you be doubly sure the situation is worse in this country.

Why? Is it a scientific fact that Ireland is twice as bad at everything as the UK? Now you're reduced to racist comments against your country.

The point being: yes, of course there is discrimination in Irish society. Against women, against gays, against Church of Ireland people, against Asians, against blacks, against travellers. No-one is denying this.

The answer to this problem is not to set up an artificial them vs us mentality, and accusing the mainstream population of hatred.

P.

EireMuzzie

Thank you Ocean

Now back to Irishconvert. Here are some interesting statistics from a country that actually cares about minorities and their standing in society (the measure of Ireland's commitment was evinced in its dismantling of virtually all equality bodies when cash was tight):
Muslim graduates underrepresented in work
the multiple inequalities Muslims face in Europe
Pakistani and Bangladeshi Muslim men and Black African Christian men suffer a ‘pay penalty’, earning 13-21 per cent less than white British Christian men.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Thank you Ocean

Now back to Irishconvert. Here are some interesting statistics from a country that actually cares about minorities and their standing in society (the measure of Ireland's commitment was evinced in its dismantling of virtually all equality bodies when cash was tight):
Muslim graduates underrepresented in work
the multiple inequalities Muslims face in Europe
Pakistani and Bangladeshi Muslim men and Black African Christian men suffer a ‘pay penalty’, earning 13-21 per cent less than white British Christian men.

Wow. I've never met someone who gives so many hostages to fortune. You actually give references to articles which contradict yourself.

The first link there says:

The United Kingdom is one of the world’s most unequal societies, with a poorer record than Ireland,

Yet you yourself were claiming a few minutes ago that Ireland was twice as unequal as the UK!

Do you even read the links you post?

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

...apart from a 110 page report which you highlighted:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64520610&postcount=88

...which appears to conclude that discrimination against Muslims primarily consists of discrimination against Asians in general.

Yet, to you, the only issue is discrimination against Muslims, as if that kind of discrimination was exceptional in Ireland - hence your claim that:



That is to say, absolutely no visibly practising Muslims. This is has been shown to be false.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64545661#post64545661

As pointed out, you then started backtracking, saying that:



This in itself is hardly a surprise. To you, a "visibly practising Muslim" is one with a long beard and a robe. Muslims wearing long beards and robe are relatively rare in Ireland, period. I lived and worked in the city centre until about a year ago. In that time, I saw a handful of people dressed as such. Of course, they are going to be relatively rare in the workforce.



Why? Is it a scientific fact that Ireland is twice as bad at everything as the UK? Now you're reduced to racist comments against your country.

The point being: yes, of course there is discrimination in Irish society. Against women, against gays, against Church of Ireland people, against Asians, against blacks, against travellers. No-one is denying this.

The answer to this problem is not to set up an artificial them vs us mentality, and accusing the mainstream population of hatred.

P.

The THEM vs Us isn't a Muslim construct, you need only look to the media to see where the blame lies. It isn't enough to simply say that the discrimination is against 'Asians', especially when terms like Paki etc are simply euphemisms for Muslim. I've been called a Paki by some guttersnipes in Dublin, and I don't even look Asian. It's clear that when derogatory slurs are made such as Paki or a-rab then what is meant is Muslim.

Again, propping up a picture of a woman in hijab and anecdotal quips are not evidence. Nor is singling out ONE profession and holding that up to counter the claim.

There was no intended slur upon Ireland. It has only recently emerged as a first world country but still evinces a third world mentality in many areas. Regrettably it will take some time for the changes that we see across the water, but the UK is a good example of where Ireland should be aiming for.

Mark Hamill

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Muslim graduates underrepresented in work
the multiple inequalities Muslims face in Europe
Pakistani and Bangladeshi Muslim men and Black African Christian men suffer a ‘pay penalty’, earning 13-21 per cent less than white British Christian men.

If how Muslim countries treat non-muslims is irrelevent to the discussion of how Ireland treats muslims, then I fail to see how the UK treats muslims is relevent.

Mark Hamill

EireMuzzie wrote: »

The THEM vs Us isn't a Muslim construct, you need only look to the media to see where the blame lies. It isn't enough to simply say that the discrimination is against 'Asians', especially when terms like Paki etc are simply euphemisms for Muslim. I've been called a Paki by some guttersnipes in Dublin, and I don't even look Asian. It's clear that when derogatory slurs are made such as Paki or a-rab then what is meant is Muslim.

And yet in your next paragraph you say: "anecdotal quips are not evidence". Why is that the rules you try to apply to us, are not applicable to you?

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Again, propping up a picture of a woman in hijab and anecdotal quips are not evidence. Nor is singling out ONE profession and holding that up to counter the claim.

I'm curious, then, as to what you would accept as evidence? In fact, I'm doubly curious as to what contrary evidence you have in the first place.

EireMuzzie wrote: »

There was no intended slur upon Ireland. It has only recently emerged as a first world country but still evinces a third world mentality in many areas. Regrettably it will take some time for the changes that we see across the water, but the UK is a good example of where Ireland should be aiming for.

And to counter such a claim, I will now link to the articles you yourself have only a short while ago linked to:
Muslim graduates underrepresented in work
the multiple inequalities Muslims face in Europe
Pakistani and Bangladeshi Muslim men and Black African Christian men suffer a ‘pay penalty’, earning 13-21 per cent less than white British Christian men.

The Recliner

EireMuzzie wrote: »

So, substantiate the claim or you may be in line for a ban - if of course there is consistency.

Rosslarechap if he posts again will have to provide evidence or he will face the same sanctions as anybody else, the charter applies to everyone equally

EireMuzzie wrote: »

It's clear that when derogatory slurs are made such as Paki or a-rab then what is meant is Muslim.

I highly doubt the type of people who use such terms are smart enough to associate one with the other

oceanclub

The Recliner wrote: »

I highly doubt the type of people who use such terms are smart enough to associate one with the other

The only time (fortunately) my wife has been abused in Ireland, was when she was called that word in Shannon, Limerick. She turned around and said "I'm a Malaysian, you moron."

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

The only time (fortunately) my wife has been abused in Ireland, was when she was called that word in Shannon, Limerick. She turned around and said "I'm a Malaysian, you moron."

P.

I'm sorry she had to hear that in the first place. The point is that these terms are euphemisms for Muslim and it is wrong to for the Gardai to record it as a race crime, unless they concede that derogatory and discriminatory behaviour toward Muslims is racism.

EireMuzzie

Mark Hamill:And yet in your next paragraph you say: "anecdotal quips are not evidence". Why is that the rules you try to apply to us, are not applicable to you?

Good point, but I'm not advancing a personal experience as evidence.

I'm curious, then, as to what you would accept as evidence? In fact, I'm doubly curious as to what contrary evidence you have in the first place.

Please read the thread

And to counter such a claim, I will now link to the articles you yourself have only a short while ago linked to:
Muslim graduates underrepresented in work
the multiple inequalities Muslims face in Europe
Pakistani and Bangladeshi Muslim men and Black African Christian men suffer a ‘pay penalty’, earning 13-21 per cent less than white British Christian men.

The main point of the articles is that the issue has been recognized and attempts are being made to address the problem. Compare that with here where posters think a woman in hijab in a picture from a hospital site means everything is fine.

EireMuzzie

Mark Hamill wrote: »

If how Muslim countries treat non-muslims is irrelevent to the discussion of how Ireland treats muslims, then I fail to see how the UK treats muslims is relevent.

Because like Ireland it claims to be a liberal democracy. If both make the claim, there should be some similarities, don't you think?

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

I'm sorry she had to hear that in the first place. The point is that these terms are euphemisms for Muslim

That word has been used since as least the 50s as a generic racist term for those who appears to be South Asian.

P.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

The THEM vs Us isn't a Muslim construct, you need only look to the media to see where the blame lies.

So you think setting up a them vs. us dichotomy is wrong? Well, I totally agree with you.

In that case, I'm baffled as to why you posting originally in this thread to support MPAC.ie, a group itself that has a lot of involvement in the media (Liam Egan writes for a newspaper and is a rentaquote for many right-wing journalists) and which itself creates a us-vs-them view of the world.

Again, propping up a picture of a woman in hijab and anecdotal quips are not evidence. Nor is singling out ONE profession and holding that up to counter the claim.

Noone claimed one profession. We've mentioned bus drivers, medical staff, lawyers, human resource personnel and accountants in the course of the thread. You were the one who claimed there was "absolutely" no sign of visible Muslims in the workplace.

There was no intended slur upon Ireland. It has only recently emerged as a first world country but still evinces a third world mentality in many areas. Regrettably it will take some time for the changes that we see across the water, but the UK is a good example of where Ireland should be aiming for.

Hey, I never claimed things can't improve. But nor am I claiming there is nothing good about this country, that the Irish will never like Muslims, that Muslims should never make friends with non-muslim Irish, and that Muslims are not represented at all in the Irish workplace.

P.

delta720

EireMuzzie wrote: »

The point is that these terms are euphemisms for Muslim

You must be joking. The types of people who say these things don't know what the word euphemism means. The reality is if your skin is a different colour or your not wearing a Celtic jersey there's a chance a scumbag is going to shout the first thing that comes into his/her head at you.

It's nothing got to do with religion the majority of the times I'd guess. If your hair is long your going to be called a grunger etc. Reading too much into the reasons for such abuse is pointless because unless your a scumbag like them you'll get something shouted at you.

Tefral

Eiremuzzie 2 Muslim women in my company working as Quantity Surveyors had all the rights there that you are saying that are restricted.

I remember they were even helped through some fast they were doing where they couldnt eat during daylight hours or something.

If your getting subjected because of your religion then i would suggest moving to a different company.

Also when Irish people go to work in Islamic countries we obey the rules, we dont go forcing those we work with to have christmas, Sundays off etc. (Fellow Quantity Surveyors i know working in Saudi etc have to work sunday as its a normal day of the week). While i fully agree we should be liberal, and embrace multi cultures. I do not believe we should change all our national holidays because they dont suit minoritys. In this country days like Good Friday which are important to Catholics etc arent National Holidays, i have to take this day off out of my personal holidays.

When i go to another country, i respect the local values, and try to learn as much of the language etc as possible so as to not to offend if possible, even though in my experience non english speaking country folk tend to try converse in english (or irish) to be polite and also because they dont get the chance to converse in a language they may have been learning etc.

I would expect no less of anyone coming in Ireland. Items like the Garda uniform shouldnt be changed to suit a minority, school uniforms shouldnt be changed, these are UNIFORMS, the very meaning of the word means that they are all the same.

I firmly believe the saying "When in Rome do as the Romans do"

irishconvert

EireMuzzie will be taking a little break for two weeks while he decides if he wants to play by the rules of this forum or not.

Son Of A Vidic

Eiremuzzie, will you wake up and smell the coffee man! I've worked in the medical business for many years and I've spent a lot of time in London. I have noticed there is a lot more hospital staff in Ireland of the Islamic faith than London, especially when you consider population sizes etc. Consultants, Registrars, junior Doctors, nurses, male and female staff with their Hijab etc. Walk around any Irish hospital and you will see them, they are a valued and integral part of our health service. During Ramadan we would look-out for our Muslim colleagues, because of the long, tiring fast they would endure during long days in Theatre etc. We had no issue with this, in fact we always admired their discipline and devotion. So cop on to yourself! stop wishing for the getthoisation of Islam and trying to create issues that don't exist.

Mark Hamill

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Because like Ireland it claims to be a liberal democracy. If both make the claim, there should be some similarities, don't you think?

No, not at all. Ireland and the UK have different governmental systems, with different laws, currencies and education systems. They are massively different, so how one country deals with discrimination is not at all going to be indicative of how the other deals with it. To try to tar one country with the same brush as you tar another, simply because they are both "liberal democracies", is as stupid and racist as saying that all muslim countries must support what one country claiming to be muslim does.
I realise you wont be answering this anytime soon, but it will be waiting here for you, if you decide to return with some evidence for your previous claims.

RosslareChap

The Recliner wrote: »

Rosslarechap if he posts again will have to provide evidence or he will face the same sanctions as anybody else, the charter applies to everyone equally

Shia Muslims believe a short'ish beard is permissible. Can the other poster show evidence that a long beard is a must for Muslims, or just that anything that can be classified as a beard is ok.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234969335-can-anyone-show-me-a-pic-of-a-2mm-beard/

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/9060-length-of-beard-hair/

Kotek Besar

RosslareChap wrote: »

Shia Muslims believe a short'ish beard is permissible. Can the other poster show evidence that a long beard is a must for Muslims, or just that anything that can be classified as a beard is ok.

Keeping a beard is only a sunnah (recommendation) anyway. It's not mandatory. I don't keep a beard at all.

From what I know (which isn't a lot, I'm sorry to say), if a Muslim keeps a beard he's supposed to keep it neat and tidy anyway.

hivizman

Kotek Besar wrote: »

Keeping a beard is only a sunnah (recommendation) anyway. It's not mandatory. I don't keep a beard at all.

From what I know (which isn't a lot, I'm sorry to say), if a Muslim keeps a beard he's supposed to keep it neat and tidy anyway.

This certainly seems to be the general consensus - see this comment on the IslamOnline.net website.

There are various hadiths on growing the beard - see here for a selection based on the sayings and actions of Muhammad. Many of the beard-related traditions actually report the practices of the companions rather than of the prophet, for example the argument that men should not trim their beard until it is long enough to fill the hand if you make it into the shape of a fist.

As an aside, I've been growing my own beard since last summer (when I was on holiday in the Turkish mountains and didn't have access to hot water for shaving for a couple of weeks). The beard was certainly useful during the very cold weather over the past couple of months - it keeps the chin and neck warmer than even the best quality thermal scarf.

ronaldoshaky

irishconvert wrote: »

http://mpac.ie/2010/02/05/so-the-irish-want-our-money/

I just saw the above article on the MPAC.ie site and the following quote stuck out



I have to say I have no idea what this guy is talking about. As an Irish convert to Islam I have never felt marginalised and excluded. I think we can practice our religion very freely and openly in Ireland and I have never come across any problems in this regard.

I am wondering how other Muslims in Ireland feel about this. Do you feel distance, marginalised and excluded by Irish people?

Yes, but you are not from Arab countries or, the Asian continent are you.

irishconvert

ronaldoshaky wrote: »

Yes, but you are not from Arab countries or, the Asian continent are you.

Either is the guy who wrote the article.

oceanclub

irishconvert wrote: »

Either is the guy who wrote the article.

I believe he's from that mysterious Wahabbist state known as "Gorey".

P.

EireMuzzie

Kotek Besar wrote: »

Keeping a beard is only a sunnah (recommendation) anyway. It's not mandatory. I don't keep a beard at all.

From what I know (which isn't a lot, I'm sorry to say), if a Muslim keeps a beard he's supposed to keep it neat and tidy anyway.

Can you cite evidence that the beard is only sunnah?

I find it odd that some can say whatever they wish without any need to substantiate it, while others are censured and even banned.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Can you cite evidence that the beard is only sunnah?

I find it odd that some can say whatever they wish without any need to substantiate it, while others are censured and even banned.

On a tangent to this, can anyone explain to me: how can anything be mandatory in Islam when there is no Pope-like central authority, but rather a myriad of Islamic scholars who can each issue rulings based on the Koran and other texts?

P.

wes

oceanclub wrote: »

On a tangent to this, can anyone explain to me: how can anything be mandatory in Islam when there is no Pope-like central authority, but rather a myriad of Islamic scholars who can each issue rulings based on the Koran and other texts?

P.

Pretty much goes down to which school of taught you adhere to, so some people will say the beard is mandatory and other will say its nice to have. So what is and isn't mandatory is essentially a matter of what you believe.

Also, in Shia Islam, they do have Central Authorities, one would be the Ayotollah in Iran (and the various others about the place), and there would be the Agha Khan, who is the leader of the Ismaili Muslims. So, its Sunni Islam that no longer has a central authority of any kind.

oceanclub

wes wrote: »

Pretty much goes down to which school of taught you adhere to, so some people will say the beard is mandatory and other will say its nice to have. So what is and isn't mandatory is essentially a matter of what you believe.

Ah, but presumably there are some people who think there is no such thing as "schools of thought" - that you're either a Muslim or you're not, and that there are indeed a set of mandatory beliefs?

PS: I do feel there should a ruling against people who play Gears of Wars and have barely touched Bioshock 2 or Dragon Age Origins. Yes, I feel very strongly about that.



P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

On a tangent to this, can anyone explain to me: how can anything be mandatory in Islam when there is no Pope-like central authority, but rather a myriad of Islamic scholars who can each issue rulings based on the Koran and other texts?

P.

Because practicing Muslims return to the Quran and Sunnah upon the understanding of the salaf NOT renegades who curse the companions such as the Shia murtids.

wes

oceanclub wrote: »

Ah, but presumably there are some people who think there is no such thing as "schools of thought" - that you're either a Muslim or you're not, and that there are indeed a set of mandatory beliefs?

Well, the schools of though are pretty mainstream concept in Islam, so I don't think there would be many who would deny them outright.

oceanclub wrote: »

PS: I do feel there should a ruling against people who play Gears of Wars and have barely touched Bioshock 2 or Dragon Age Origins. Yes, I feel very strongly about that.

My cousin is the one playing Gears 2 all the time, I haven't touched it since I beat. I am still trying to beat God of War 1 & 2 before number 3 comes out, so Bioshock 2, and DA: Origins have to wait.

wes

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Because practicing Muslims return to the Quran and Sunnah upon the understanding of the salaf NOT renegades who curse the companions such as the Shia murtids.

No need for sectarianism. Views such as yours have lead to a lot of unneccessary death and destuction in Iraq for example. It is better to agree to disagree imho.

BennyLava

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Because practicing Muslims return to the Quran and Sunnah upon the understanding of the salaf NOT renegades who curse the companions such as the Shia murtids.

Have been reading this post with interest

surely incitement to sectarian hatred isn't permitted?

EireMuzzie, where are you from? Are you an Irish convert or are you from a traditional Islamic country? Just curious, as to how you have come to see so much discrimination around you when others can't.
You appear to be actively seeking out islamophobia, in the 50's America your mindset would have been called McCarthyism

EireMuzzie

BennyLava wrote: »

Have been reading this post with interest

surely incitement to sectarian hatred isn't permitted?

EireMuzzie, where are you from? Are you an Irish convert or are you from a traditional Islamic country? Just curious, as to how you have come to see so much discrimination around you when others can't.
You appear to be actively seeking out islamophobia, in the 50's America your mindset would have been called McCarthyism

Ah sure Ireland is bliss, everyone is equal and pigs fly too.

EireMuzzie

wes wrote: »

No need for sectarianism. Views such as yours have lead to a lot of unneccessary death and destuction in Iraq for example. It is better to agree to disagree imho.

That's a wrong statement to make considering its the scholars past and present who have rightly condemned the extreme Shia. It is not better to agree to disagree and you have no scholarly statement that would uphold what you have just expressed. Please keep ur opinions to yourself when it comes to Islam.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

That's a wrong statement to make considering its the scholars past and present who have rightly condemned the extreme Shia.

I hate him too. He really ruined "Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull" for me.

P.

wes

EireMuzzie wrote: »

That's a wrong statement to make considering its the scholars past and present who have rightly condemned the extreme Shia. It is not better to agree to disagree and you have no scholarly statement that would uphold what you have just expressed. Please keep ur opinions to yourself when it comes to Islam.

Oh dear, you really are going to run with this, aren't you?

Look the forum here, has Muslims posting from various sects and what not. Secterian stuff that you spout on here, will only make it uncomfortable for people.

As I said earlier, attitudes like yours, lead to a lot of death and descruction, and I will once again point to the example of Iraq. Agreeing to disagree is a perfectly reasonable position to take imho, tends to lead to people getting along in a more civil manner. Also, due to the dangers of sectarianism, I feel that I can't shut up and let such things go unchalleneged. Sectarianism is bad for everyone involved, and there is no reason to bad mouth another sect, as it will lead to an adversarial nature, that the forum doesn't need.

**EDIT**
Oh and my position of "agree to disagree", is supported by main stream Islamic scholars btw, they don't use the same phrase, I do, but its the same general idea:

The Amman Message

Summary

The Amman Message started as a detailed statement released the eve of the 27th of Ramadan 1425 AH / 9th November 2004 CE by H.M. King Abdullah II bin Al-Hussein in Amman, Jordan. It sought to declare what Islam is and what it is not, and what actions represent it and what actions do not. Its goal was to clarify to the modern world the true nature of Islam and the nature of true Islam.

In order to give this statement more religious authority, H.M. King Abdullah II then sent the following three questions to 24 of the most senior religious scholars from all around the world representing all the branches and schools of Islam: (1) Who is a Muslim? (2) Is it permissible to declare someone an apostate (takfir)? (3) Who has the right to undertake issuing fatwas (legal rulings)?

Based on the fatwas provided by these great scholars (who included the Shaykh Al-Azhar; Ayatollah Sistani and Sheikh Qaradawi), in July 2005 CE, H.M. King Abdullah II convened an international Islamic conference of 200 of the world's leading Islamic scholars 'Ulama) from 50 countries. In Amman, the scholars unanimously issued a ruling on three fundamental issues (which became known as the 'Three Points of the Amman Message'):

1. They specifically recognized the validity of all 8 Mathhabs (legal schools) of Sunni, Shi'a and Ibadhi Islam; of traditional Islamic Theology (Ash'arism); of Islamic Mysticism (Sufism), and of true Salafi thought, and came to a precise definition of who is a Muslim.
2. Based upon this definition they forbade takfir (declarations of apostasy) between Muslims.
3. Based upon the Mathahib they set forth the subjective and objective preconditions for the issuing of fatwas, thereby exposing ignorant and illegitimate edicts in the name of Islam.

These Three Points were then unanimously adopted by the Islamic World's political and temporal leaderships at the Organization of the Islamic Conference summit at Mecca in December 2005. And over a period of one year from July 2005 to July 2006, the Three Points were also unanimously adopted by six other international Islamic scholarly assemblies, culminating with the International Islamic Fiqh Academy of Jeddah, in July 2006. In total, over 500 leading Muslim scholars worldwide as can be seen on this website [click here to see the entire list] unanimously endorsed the Amman Message and its Three Points.

This amounts to a historical, universal and unanimous religious and political consensus (ijma') of the Ummah (nation) of Islam in our day, and a consolidation of traditional, orthodox Islam. The significance of this is: (1) that it is the first time in over a thousand years that the Ummah has formally and specifically come to such a pluralistic mutual inter-recognition; and (2) that such a recognition is religiously legally binding on Muslims since the Prophet (may peace and blessings be upon him) said: My Ummah will not agree upon an error (Ibn Majah, Sunan, Kitab al-Fitan, Hadith no.4085).

This is good news not only for Muslims, for whom it provides a basis for unity and a solution to infighting, but also for non-Muslims. For the safeguarding of the legal methodologies of Islam (the Mathahib) necessarily means inherently preserving traditional Islam's internal 'checks and balances'. It thus assures balanced Islamic solutions for essential issues like human rights; women's rights; freedom of religion; legitimate jihad; good citizenship of Muslims in non-Muslim countries, and just and democratic government. It also exposes the illegitimate opinions of radical fundamentalists and terrorists from the point of view of true Islam. As George Yeo, the Foreign Minister of Singapore, declared in the 60th Session of the U.N. General Assembly (about the Amman Message): "Without this clarification, the war against terrorism would be much harder to fight."

Finally, whilst this by the Grace of God is a historical achievement, it will clearly remain only principial unless it is put into practice everywhere. For this reason, H.M. King Abdullah II is now seeking to implement it, God willing, through various pragmatic measures, including (1) inter-Islamic treaties; (2) national and international legislation using the Three Points of the Amman Message to define Islam and forbid takfir; (3) the use of publishing and the multi-media in all their aspects to spread the Amman Message; (4) instituting the teaching of the Amman Message in school curricula and university courses worldwide; and (5) making it part of the training of mosque Imams and making it included in their sermons.

God says in the Holy Qur'an says:

There is no good in much of their secret conferences save (in) whosoever enjoineth charity and fairness and peace-making among the people and whoso doeth that, seeking the good pleasure of God, We shall bestow on him a vast reward. (Al-Nisa, 4:114).

So is the above good enough? Main stream scholars, from different Islamic sects, and schools of taught, and all the information easily avaliable online. Its backed by the OIC, which is probably the most representative body for Muslims right now, and many other organizations.

So can we please drop the secterianism, now? It make things uncomfortable for people from differing sects.

EireMuzzie

wes wrote: »

Oh dear, you really are going to run with this, aren't you?

Look the forum here, has Muslims posting from various sects and what not. Secterian stuff that you spout on here, will only make it uncomfortable for people.

As I said earlier, attitudes like yours, lead to a lot of death and descruction, and I will once again point to the example of Iraq. Agreeing to disagree is a perfectly reasonable position to take imho, tends to lead to people getting along in a more civil manner. Also, due to the dangers of sectarianism, I feel that I can't shut up and let such things go unchalleneged. Sectarianism is bad for everyone involved, and there is no reason to bad mouth another sect, as it will lead to an adversarial nature, that the forum doesn't need.

Given some of the less than orthodox views you have expressed on this forum I can understand why you would take such a position. The irony of course is in the fact that such a view is sectarian in itself.

I make no apologies that I do not subscribe to the 'everyone is right' mantra.

bermuda

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Practicing Muslims (and I must make the distinction) must pray 5 times per day, in congregation if possible. The Dhur and Asr prayers at certain time in the year fall within working hours. So Muslims would need about 10mins for each prayer. Do you know of any firm that makes this provision, if so please post full company name and address for confirmation - we don't want to rely on Ocean's 'oh, I know such-and-such)?
Practicing Muslims only celebrate two holidays per year, the eid-ul-fitr and the eid-ul-adha celebrations. No company in Ireland allows these as holiday and even school children are forced to take a day or two off as it is not recognized. It seems secular Ireland still defers to Christian holidays.

PwC Ireland - the Dublin office has a prayer room and the muslims so inclined are welcome to congregate and pray. Its a general prayer room so anyone of any faith is welcome to use the facility.

bermuda

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Practicing Muslims (and I must make the distinction) must pray 5 times per day, in congregation if possible. The Dhur and Asr prayers at certain time in the year fall within working hours. So Muslims would need about 10mins for each prayer. Do you know of any firm that makes this provision, if so please post full company name and address for confirmation - we don't want to rely on Ocean's 'oh, I know such-and-such)?

Practicing Muslims only celebrate two holidays per year, the eid-ul-fitr and the eid-ul-adha celebrations. No company in Ireland allows these as holiday and even school children are forced to take a day or two off as it is not recognized. It seems secular Ireland still defers to Christian holidays.

And no country in the Middle East which has an extremely high number of western expats recognizes the Christian holidays. ( its called cultural differences and so people use their annual leave, nothing wrong with that mate!).

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

I make no apologies that I do not subscribe to the 'everyone is right' mantra.

There's no harm in that, but you appear to subscribe to the "absolutely everyone else is wrong" mantra.

I mean, both here and on politics.ie, where you are currently displaying a rather prurient interest in what goes on in Senator David Norris's trousers (and on the verge of being banned yet again - that's your second account I believe), you seem to go out of your way to be abusive and unpopular to an almost self-destructive extent. Which is ironic for someone who appears to want to convince others to convert to their beliefs. I've never seen you admit that someone else's point might have any kind of validity or try to meet them - well, never mind half-way, even 1/10th of the way.

Sometimes in life you will get further with a joke and a kind word than you will by shouting "you're wrong" ad infinitum.

P.

EireMuzzie

The people of Al Azhar and Qaradawi are hardly mainstream...:rolleyes:

Tell me, do you consider the Allawi and the Qadianis to be OK? What about the Rawafid Shia'a who believe the angel Jibrail made a mistake in giving the message to Muhammad, and what of their cursing the Sahabah?

Here's a petition that calls for the rejection: http://www.petitiononline.com/amanfitn/petition.html