Living in Ireland as a Muslim

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

There's no harm in that, but you appear to subscribe to the "absolutely everyone else is wrong" mantra.

I mean, both here and on politics.ie, where you are currently displaying a rather prurient interest in what goes on in Senator David Norris's trousers (and on the verge of being banned yet again - that's your second account I believe), you seem to go out of your way to be abusive and unpopular to an almost self-destructive extent. Which is ironic for someone who appears to want to convince others to convert to their beliefs. I've never seen you admit that someone else's point might have any kind of validity or try to meet them - well, never mind half-way, even 1/10th of the way.

Sometimes in life you will get further with a joke and a kind word than you will by shouting "you're wrong" ad infinitum.

P.

You're wrong

EireMuzzie

The Position of Ahlus Sunnah on Differences

QUESTION: Is there harm in warning against these Sects that are in opposition to the Methodology of Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah?

ANSWER: "We warn against all those who oppose [the Salaf] generally and we say: 'We adhere to the path of Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah and we we abandon those who oppose Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah regardless of whether their opposition is MAJOR or MINOR. This is because if we are lenient with the opposition, then perhaps it may grow and increase. So opposition is not allowed AT ALL.

Furthermore, it is obligatory to adhere to the path of Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah in both major and minor issues."

QUESTION: Are we require to mention the good qualities of those we warn against?

ANSWER: "If you mention their good qualities, then this means that you have called (the people) to follow them. Know, DO NOT MENTION THEIR GOOD QUALITIES. Mention the error they are upon only. You are not entrusted to praise and approve of their actions - you are ONLY entrusted with exposing the error they are upon so that they may repent from it, and so others can beware of it.

It may even be that the error that they are upon wipes away their good deeds if it is kufr or shirk. It could also be that this error outweighs their good deeds. And perhaps it may seem like they are good deeds in your eyes, yet they ARE NOT SO IN THE SIGHT OF ALLAAH."

("Al-Ajwibatul-Mufeedah 'an As'ilatil-Manaahijil-Jadeedah", Shaykh Saaleh al-Fawzaan)

[FONT=MS Sans Serif,arial,verdana,helvetica]The position of Ahl us-Sunnah is that
[/FONT]

[FONT=MS Sans Serif,arial,verdana,helvetica]
[*] The groups and sects are to be shunned. Their callers refuted and boycotted and warned against. Their books refuted (by those capable, the scholars) and the general folk warned against their evil and their opposition to the Sunnah. This is the clear ruling in the Book and the Sunnah.
[*] There is no co-operation in affairs of da'wah whatsover with Ahl ul-Bid'ah, not until they abandon what they are upon.
[*] The scholars are to refute/advise the groups and sects.
[*] Ahl ul-Bid'ah, the callers, are refuted against and warned against: by name, by book, by belief, by ideology, by manhaj - this is the way of orthodox Sunni Scholarship (as specifically defined)
[*] The general folk amongst the innovators who are not callers and who don't really know what they are upon are to be given da'wah but by qualified people and only with the intention of correcting them and inviting them to the truth. This is a restricted affair, with conditions and guidelines and not an absolute one.[/FONT]

wes

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Given some of the less than orthodox views you have expressed on this forum I can understand why you would take such a position. The irony of course is in the fact that such a view is sectarian in itself.

I make no apologies that I do not subscribe to the 'everyone is right' mantra.

My views in this regard are perfectly Ortodox. The Amman message speaks for itself, it is very much a main stream opinion.

You can disagree all you like, but lets not pretend something backed by the OIC isn't main stream.

wes

EireMuzzie wrote: »

The people of Al Azhar and Qaradawi are hardly mainstream...:rolleyes:

You clearly did't read the thing, as the list is endorsed by a lot of people, not only Islamic scholars, but Presidents and Prime Ministers as well.

Its is also backed by the OIC, which is the Muslim version of the EU. The OIC is basically an organization, which counts amongs its members most of the world Muslim majority states. To say that the Amman message is not mainstream is ludicrous. On the basis of backing of the OIC alone, shows it is main stream.

Again, read the list of who supports it, plenty of name you will recognise. There are a lot of mainstream groups who back it, and those who are against it are imho, extremists, whose views have caused a ton of death and destruction in Iraq, and these people need to be challenged.

Now your entitled to your beliefs, but I have no issue saying yours views are extreme, and I backed up what I was saying with an unprecendented coming together of Islamic scholars, that cannot be matched by extremists, but you instead, dismiss the message, backed by mainstream Muslim organisations such as the OIC.

You can see the countries who are members of the OIC here:
http://www.oic-oci.org/member_states.asp

How exactly is such an organisation not main stream?

Also, its isn't just the OIC, but many others who endorse it.

EireMuzzie

wes wrote: »

You clearly did't read the thing, as the list is endorsed by a lot of people, not only Islamic scholars, but Presidents and Prime Ministers as well.

Its is also backed by the OIC, which is the Muslim version of the EU. The OIC is basically an organization, which counts amongs its members most of the world Muslim majority states. To say that the Amman message is not mainstream is ludicrous. On the basis of backing of the OIC alone, shows it is main stream.

Again, read the list of who supports it, plenty of name you will recognise. There are a lot of mainstream groups who back it, and those who are against it are imho, extremists, whose views have caused a ton of death and destruction in Iraq, and these people need to be challenged.

Now your entitled to your beliefs, but I have no issue saying yours views are extreme, and I backed up what I was saying with an unprecendented coming together of Islamic scholars, that cannot be matched by extremists, but you instead, dismiss the message, backed by mainstream Muslim organisations such as the OIC.

You can see the countries who are members of the OIC here:
http://www.oic-oci.org/member_states.asp

How exactly is such an organisation not main stream?

Also, its isn't just the OIC, but many others who endorse it.

Yawn...you present the OIC as your evidence, I the Quran and Sunnah. It is clear who is in error, for if there is a dispute then we take it back to the Quran and Sunnah. Anyone who signed that accord, is an extremist who has strayed from the true path - there can be NO unity upon error.

By the way, I see another group you've not spoken well of has been in the news again:

An Irish Islamic website which argues for the introduction of Sharia law here and extols the benefits of Islamic rules for women claims to have had nearly 270,000 hits last month alone.


Targeted at what it called Irish "O'Muslims", the Muslim Public Affairs Council website, www.mpac.ie, also warns readers about the dangers of imitating the Kuffar (non-believers in Islam). http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2010/mar/07/irish-sharia-law-website-gets-270000-hits-a-month/

They even claim:

From a religious perspective we believe we represent a mainstream Islamic position...

wes

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Yawn...you present the OIC as your evidence, I the Quran and Sunnah. It is clear who is in error, for if there is a dispute then we take it back to the Quran and Sunnah. Anyone who signed that accord, is an extremist who has strayed from the true path - there can be NO unity upon error.

Man, you don't even read the stuff other people post do you? The OIC is just one organisation, albeit one that is has pretty much every Muslim majority nation on the planet as a member, but also multiple Islamic scholars backed the Amman message.

You asked for a scholarly opinions, I gave you one, with unprecedented backing. You can call them extreme, or whatever you like, but it doesn't change the fact that many main stream Islamic scholars disagree with you. The Amman message is unprecendented in its backing by Islamic scholars, which of course is massive blow to sectarian bigotry.

EireMuzzie wrote: »

By the way, I see another group you've not spoken well of has been in the news again:


They even claim:

Could care less about MPAC tbh, also pretty sure its your web site.

oceanclub

I must admit I'm amazed that a national newspaper thought that the unverified web statistics of a fringe right-wing religious group was worthy of a news article. Especially as even a cursory investigation would have discovered that, before they took their forum down, they had a grand total of 15 members:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64332824&postcount=28

Jesus, I wonder why I'm not a journalist? Maybe it's because I stil have an ounce of self-respect.

P.

EireMuzzie

wes wrote: »

Man, you don't even read the stuff other people post do you? The OIC is just one organisation, albeit one that is has pretty much every Muslim majority nation on the planet as a member, but also multiple Islamic scholars backed the Amman message.

You asked for a scholarly opinions, I gave you one, with unprecedented backing. You can call them extreme, or whatever you like, but it doesn't change the fact that many main stream Islamic scholars disagree with you. The Amman message is unprecendented in its backing by Islamic scholars, which of course is massive blow to sectarian bigotry.

By the way, I'm sure those at MPAC care even less about your sort.

Could care less about MPAC tbh, also pretty sure its your web site.

I've reported your post for unsubstantiated accusations.

The sectarian bigotry you evince in your post above is akin to the circus surrounding Tahir-ul-Qadri's puerile 600 coma inducing 'fatwa' (only real scholars should issue those, not charlatans who call themselves 'Shaikh ul Islam').

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

I must admit I'm amazed that a national newspaper thought that the unverified web statistics of a fringe right-wing religious group was worthy of a news article. Especially as even a cursory investigation would have discovered that, before they took their forum down, they had a grand total of 15 members:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64332824&postcount=28

Jesus, I wonder why I'm not a journalist? Maybe it's because I stil have an ounce of self-respect.

P.

Have you bothered checking? Or do you make it a habit to accuse without evidence?

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Have you bothered checking? Or do you make it a habit to accuse without evidence?

The first paragraph of the article says:

"An Irish Islamic website which argues for the introduction of Sharia law here and extols the benefits of Islamic rules for women claims to have had nearly 270,000 hits last month alone. "

If a site which could only manage to attract 15 members to its forum before it was closed can manage that many hits, it's unbelieveable.

Oh, and what proportion of hits that you get every month do you think are right-wing Islamophobes going there to confirm their worst prejudices?

P.

EireMuzzie

oceanclub wrote: »

The first paragraph of the article says:




If a site which could only manage to attract 15 members to its forum before it was closed can manage that many hits, it's unbelieveable.

Oh, and what proportion of hits that you get every month do you think are right-wing Islamophobes going there to confirm their worst prejudices?

P.

That I get? Are you doing a Wes now? What forum are you talking about - they don't have one.

So you haven't checked I take it, just unwarranted supposition on your part.

oceanclub

EireMuzzie wrote: »

That I get? Are you doing a Wes now? What forum are you talking about - they don't have one.

Yup, you're right - they now don't. Perhaps it was during a period you were banned; you can read the story here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64308725#post64308725

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64332824&postcount=28

To sum up - on 4th Feb I posted a link to MPAC's forum noting it had 15 members. By the next day, they took down the forum.

P.

irishconvert

Can we get this thread back on topic please? I don't want to see any more posts about sects or schools of thought.

And on that topic I would like to point you to the charter rule which states that attacks on or belittling any religon is not allowed.

Edit: And keep the MPAC comments for the MPAC thread.

irishconvert

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Can you cite evidence that the beard is only sunnah?

I find it odd that some can say whatever they wish without any need to substantiate it, while others are censured and even banned.

People only need to back up if they are asked to do so. You have now done so, so let's see his response. Read the charter and leave the moderation to the mods. If you have a problem report a post but don't argue about it here.

Fuhrer

oceanclub wrote: »

Eoin, in the last 2 software companies I have worked in, in both companies worked Muslim women who wore hijab. If you have any _statistical_ evidence that practising Muslims are discriminated against in Ireland, please publish it. Otherwise, it just looks like another attempt by MPAC to create an artificial divide between Irish muslims and Irish non-muslims.

P

Last company I worked in had a prayer room for Muslims


Or is that Discriminating for rather then against?

Fuhrer

EireMuzzie wrote: »

Evidence that Islam cannot be practiced freely is demonstrated by the absolute lack of visibly practicing Muslims in the mainstream job market.

Awful arguement.


By your standards Evidence that the Sun doesnt exist is that it cant be seen at night.

Suff

interesting,...

I've lived in Ireland for 14 years and can honestly say that I have never felt discrimination of any sort during that period. I have integrated well into Irish society, and that did not stop me from practicing my faith. For example, when I could pray at work I would, otherwise I would do the prayers I've missed when I got back home. As for Ramadan, many of my friends and colleagues openly admired the commitment.

I think it depends largely on how cultured is one's social circle.

hivizman

Suff wrote: »

interesting,...

I've lived in Ireland for 14 years and can honestly say that I have never felt discrimination of any sort during that period. I have integrated well into Irish society, and that did not stop me from practicing my faith. For example, when I could pray at work I would, otherwise I would do the prayers I've missed when I got back home. As for Ramadan, many of my friends and colleagues openly admired the commitment.

I think it depends largely on how cultured is one's social circle.

I believe that most people are tolerant and don't want to make a fuss. I had a few days off work last week and, as an experiment, I went out wearing a thobe and kufi (I'm not a Muslim, by the way, and I'd ordered these clothes on-line). I didn't get any direct comments and didn't notice any negative looks from people, even though I met and chatted with several acquaintances while I was in the city. The only personal remark I heard wasn't to do with what I was wearing: a boy aged about five said to his mother: "Why does that man have a big beard?" Most people have a much broader experience (through TV and cinema, in particular) than they did a generation ago, so things that would have been challenged in the past are now ignored.

Incidentally, the thobe was comfortable to wear (it was made out of a quite heavy cotton fabric so it was warm), but I had to get into a particular way of walking to stop the bottom of the thobe getting tangled between my legs and constricting my movement. Also, there were a couple of times when the breeze lifted the bottom hem up so that bare legs were showing.

Obviously this is just one person's experience of walking through a cosmopolitan city during the daytime in a thobe, but I think it supports the general view on this thread that direct discrimination against Muslims in Ireland is not a universal feature of our modern society.

oceanclub

hivizman wrote: »

I had a few days off work last week and, as an experiment, I went out wearing a thobe and kufi (I'm not a Muslim, by the way, and I'd ordered these clothes on-line).

Do you normally do things like this on your days off?

Interesting experiment, alright; I'd say these days you'd get far stranger looks dressed as a Catholic priest.

P.

hivizman

oceanclub wrote: »

Do you normally do things like this on your days off?

No - I wear the thobe a lot at home as a sort of lazy leisure garment, but previously I'd felt nervous about wearing it outside. Put it down to spring fever.

oceanclub wrote: »

Interesting experiment, alright; I'd say these days you'd get far stranger looks dressed as a Catholic priest.

You're not wrong there! In Britain in the 1980s and 1990s, soldiers weren't allowed out of camp in uniform, because of the fear that they'd be terrorist targets. Is something similar happening to priests and other religious - they have to wear "civvies" to avoid the risk of a citizen's arrest?

Fanny Cradock

hivizman wrote: »

I believe that most people are tolerant and don't want to make a fuss. I had a few days off work last week and, as an experiment, I went out wearing a thobe and kufi (I'm not a Muslim, by the way, and I'd ordered these clothes on-line). I didn't get any direct comments and didn't notice any negative looks from people, even though I met and chatted with several acquaintances while I was in the city. The only personal remark I heard wasn't to do with what I was wearing: a boy aged about five said to his mother: "Why does that man have a big beard?" Most people have a much broader experience (through TV and cinema, in particular) than they did a generation ago, so things that would have been challenged in the past are now ignored.

Incidentally, the thobe was comfortable to wear (it was made out of a quite heavy cotton fabric so it was warm), but I had to get into a particular way of walking to stop the bottom of the thobe getting tangled between my legs and constricting my movement. Also, there were a couple of times when the breeze lifted the bottom hem up so that bare legs were showing.

Obviously this is just one person's experience of walking through a cosmopolitan city during the daytime in a thobe, but I think it supports the general view on this thread that direct discrimination against Muslims in Ireland is not a universal feature of our modern society.

A fantastic story. Will you be sporting it again?

hivizman

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

A fantastic story. Will you be sporting it again?

Definitely not on a windy day!

irishconvert

hivizman wrote: »

Definitely not on a windy day!

You are supposed to wear trousers (pyjama ends!) under it!

threeleggedhors

irishconvert wrote: »

I think he means that Muslims in Ireland are not given time off to pray the five daily prayers while at work, time off for Friday prayers or given days off for Eid-ul-Fitr and Adha

Christians working in the middle east don't get Sunday off and have to take the Friday instead and have to work while their Muslim co-workers go off praying during work hours so as far as I'm concerned it all balances out ...

hivizman

irishconvert wrote: »

You are supposed to wear trousers (pyjama ends!) under it!

I guess like the guy in the front wearing the cream thobe?

Miranda7

There are a number of issues here. The hijab is usually worn in Muslim countries where women do not have equal rights. There are few if any women professionals in these countries and they are all subservient to their fathers, husbands or sometimes even their younger brothers. I appreciate that there are religious reasons for covering up the human body but covering the face de-humanises the person. It is very easy to abuse some-one some one if you can't see their face while you are doing it. Also it is only the women who are required to cover up. I was once on a beach in Galway and I saw three Asian people, two men and one woman arrive. The men were dressed in European style clothing but the woman was covered from head to toe (excluding her face) in what I think is called a shalwar kamize. They decided to go for a swim. The men changed into swim wear and the woman went in fully clothed and then had sit in wet clothes for the rest of the day. If the rules around modesty were applied equally to men as well as women there might be some point but that is not the case. I don't think Muslim are discriminated against on the jobs market here - two of my children have worked with Muslims. However, I have never seen an obviously muslim women in the work place - except perhaps in a hospital. I sort of thought this could be because in their culture women are not encouraged to work outside the home.

Kotek Besar

Miranda7 wrote: »

There are a number of issues here. The hijab is usually worn in Muslim countries where women do not have equal rights. There are few if any women professionals in these countries and they are all subservient to their fathers, husbands or sometimes even their younger brothers. I appreciate that there are religious reasons for covering up the human body but covering the face de-humanises the person. It is very easy to abuse some-one some one if you can't see their face while you are doing it. Also it is only the women who are required to cover up. I was once on a beach in Galway and I saw three Asian people, two men and one woman arrive. The men were dressed in European style clothing but the woman was covered from head to toe (excluding her face) in what I think is called a shalwar kamize. They decided to go for a swim. The men changed into swim wear and the woman went in fully clothed and then had sit in wet clothes for the rest of the day. If the rules around modesty were applied equally to men as well as women there might be some point but that is not the case. I don't think Muslim are discriminated against on the jobs market here - two of my children have worked with Muslims. However, I have never seen an obviously muslim women in the work place - except perhaps in a hospital. I sort of thought this could be because in their culture women are not encouraged to work outside the home.

While this makes for interesting reading, it is merely someone's opinion of what they believe to be the truth.

irishconvert

Miranda7 wrote: »

There are a number of issues here. The hijab is usually worn in Muslim countries where women do not have equal rights.

This is only your opinion but factually it is complete rubbish and without substance or proof. I live in UK, where women do have equal rights, and Muslim women wear it. I have been to Muslim countries and lots of women do not wear it. Even if you watch TV in arab countries the women presenters do not usully wear it.

Miranda7 wrote: »

There are few if any women professionals in these countries and they are all subservient to their fathers, husbands or sometimes even their younger brothers.

Where are you getting this nonsense? How many muslim countries have u been to? How many Muslim friends do you have? Does your experience of visiting Muslim countries and your first hand experience with Muslims back this up?

Piste

Even in the Middle East there seems to be a fair amount of choice. I know a load of Arab girls from the ME who don't wear Hijabs. That said, maybe they wear them at home with their family and aren't bothered here.

springwell7616

hhey, if you don't like the setup in this country, go to an Islamic state where you can practice your religion freely and openly with like minded sisters and brothers.
This is a Christian country with Christian ideals, so get used to it or leave.

springwell7616

springwell7616 wrote: »

This is a Christian country with Christian ideals, so get used to it or leave.

lol?
Is it now

Kotek Besar

springwell7616 wrote: »

hhey, if you don't like the setup in this country, go to an Islamic state where you can practice your religion freely and openly with like minded sisters and brothers.

You might want to do a little research there matey. Any religion can be practised freely and openly in Ireland, it's in Article 44 of the constitution.

Miranda7

irishconvert wrote: »

This is only your opinion but factually it is complete rubbish and without substance or proof. I live in UK, where women do have equal rights, and Muslim women wear it. I have been to Muslim countries and lots of women do not wear it. Even if you watch TV in arab countries the women presenters do not usully wear it.


Where are you getting this nonsense? How many muslim countries have u been to? How many Muslim friends do you have? Does your experience of visiting Muslim countries and your first hand experience with Muslims back this up?

I don't mean to be offensive and I agree that some what I have said is a generalisation. However I have visited Pakistan for several weeks. I visited poorer areas butI found that in general women were more restricted than men. In a restuarant one night in Islamadbad of about 60 tables there was one table other than the one I was at which had only women. Most of the others were occupied by men and a few were occupied by families which included women and girls. On another occasion in the Provence of Sindh we were invited to the home of a colleague. We were greeted by the man, his wife and daughter but the women did not eat with us nor did they appear again that night. I didn't like to ask the reason for this but I thought it strange. It was a really lovely evening which would have been enhanced by the presence of the women of the house. I have no Muslim friends but in my work here I met an Irish convert to Islam - a women - whose husband was away for several weeks. She had quite a large problem which she needed to sort out but she said she couldn't let a man into her house nor could she meet a man in a public place. The problem was a matter for negotiation but she could not negotiate with a man unless her husband was present. In this case this women chose to live this restricted life but like in Christian countries, in Islamic countries people are born into this type of culture.

Tom Dunne

Miranda7 wrote: »

I don't mean to be offensive and I agree that some what I have said is a generalisation. However I have visited Pakistan for several weeks. I visited poorer areas butI found that in general women were more restricted than men. In a restuarant one night in Islamadbad of about 60 tables there was one table other than the one I was at which had only women. Most of the others were occupied by men and a few were occupied by families which included women and girls. On another occasion in the Provence of Sindh we were invited to the home of a colleague. We were greeted by the man, his wife and daughter but the women did not eat with us nor did they appear again that night. I didn't like to ask the reason for this but I thought it strange. It was a really lovely evening which would have been enhanced by the presence of the women of the house. I have no Muslim friends but in my work here I met an Irish convert to Islam - a women - whose husband was away for several weeks. She had quite a large problem which she needed to sort out but she said she couldn't let a man into her house nor could she meet a man in a public place. The problem was a matter for negotiation but she could not negotiate with a man unless her husband was present. In this case this women chose to live this restricted life but like in Christian countries, in Islamic countries people are born into this type of culture.

Ask yourself a few questions about Western and Irish culture - when did women get the vote? Was it the same time as men? What about in Ireland where women were not allowed into pubs (wasn't that up to relatively recently, the 1960's possibly)? Isn't there a certain golf club in Dublin that still doesn't allow women members? Are women paid the same as men (especially in higher levels of management)?

You visited a country that could probably be described as a third world country - very little development outside the big cities, even the cities could be described as underdeveloped, very little wealth, relatively low levels of education compared to the West. Coupled with a very traditional, conservative, tribal society, it should go some way to explain what you saw.

How about you go to rural India and compare what you see there to what you saw in Pakistan. While I have never been to either country, I would imagine there would be a number of similarities.

Nothing to do with religion either, I would wager.

oceanclub

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Ask yourself a few questions about Western and Irish culture - when did women get the vote? Was it the same time as men? What about in Ireland where women were not allowed into pubs (wasn't that up to relatively recently, the 1960's possibly)? Isn't there a certain golf club in Dublin that still doesn't allow women members? Are women paid the same as men (especially in higher levels of management)?

Just to add that much equality and social legislation that we now take for granted here (equal pay for men/women, gay rights, condoms) were pretty forced on us by the EU.

(I believe there's a newspaper advert from the 70s where, after the EU forced equal pay on us, the government advertised a position for an enforcer for the role. With different pay grades for men and women!)

P.

irishconvert

Piste wrote: »

Even in the Middle East there seems to be a fair amount of choice. I know a load of Arab girls from the ME who don't wear Hijabs. That said, maybe they wear them at home with their family and aren't bothered here.

It depends on the country. If you watch Arab tv channels you will see lots of women who don't wear them depending on the channel and country.

lauddly_irish

EireMuzzie wrote: »

They have, and I can tell you that a major store in Ireland(we're Irish) has a specific no beard clause and the Gardai actively discriminate against the hijab. That's but two prime examples. Even if we were to accept your unsubstantiated claims, that's but 5 out of 50,000. Hardly representative.

Women should be equal to men. Women should not submissive to men and should be allow to speak and shake hands of men.
I know some muslim men on TV who do not want to shake the hands on women.

Personnaly i think that veil should be banned in oublic places because it is against the rights of women..
Besides veil is not compulsary in Islam. Veil was necessary in islamic society because of the sun. Even men would wear a veil at that time.7
But in western societies veil has no relevance..

In France we have banned full veil and hijab/burkah because of its menaing.
I believe that veil is oppresive for woomen.
I think Europe should adopt the same law too;).

PS : i got a warning for this post but i dont knoe why ?

Kotek Besar

lauddly_irish wrote: »

Women should be equal to men. Women should not submissive to men and should be allow to speak and shake hands of men.
I know some muslim men on TV who do not want to shake the hands on women.

Personnaly i think that veil should be banned in oublic places because it is against the rights of women..
Besides veil is not compulsary in Islam. Veil was necessary in islamic society because of the sun. Even men would wear a veil at that time.7
But in western societies veil has no relevance..

In France we have banned full veil and hijab/burkah because of its menaing.
I believe that veil is oppresive for woomen.
I think Europe should adopt the same law too;).

PS : i got a warning for this post but i dont knoe why ?

You seem to think that a woman who wears a veil does so not through her own choice...?

Believe it or not, in Islam women ARE equal to men and have the right to do as they please. Just as a man, what a woman decides to do or not to do is between herself and God and not anybody else.

I know that a misconception exists where some people think that in Islam a woman does as she's told by her husband or father and disobeys at her peril. Frankly, that's codswallop. A muslim woman can be as strong-headed as any non-muslim woman - believe you me!

A woman who wears a burka does so because she has made a decision to do so. I will not say here whether I like or dislike the burka in Ireland. What I will say though, is that the decision to where one is a decision made by a woman who lives in a society which grants her the right to make that decision freely and lawfully, and we should respect that if nothing else.

irishconvert

lauddly_irish wrote: »

Women should be equal to men. Women should not submissive to men and should be allow to speak and shake hands of men.
I know some muslim men on TV who do not want to shake the hands on women.

Personnaly i think that veil should be banned in oublic places because it is against the rights of women..
Besides veil is not compulsary in Islam. Veil was necessary in islamic society because of the sun. Even men would wear a veil at that time.7
But in western societies veil has no relevance..

In France we have banned full veil and hijab/burkah because of its menaing.
I believe that veil is oppresive for woomen.
I think Europe should adopt the same law too;).

PS : i got a warning for this post but i dont knoe why ?

I didn't give you the warning but I assume it is because of the attacks on and ignorance of Islam you are displaying here.

Palmach

Kotek Besar wrote: »

Y
Believe it or not, in Islam women ARE equal to men and have the right to do as they please. Just as a man, what a woman decides to do or not to do is between herself and God and not anybody else.

I know that a misconception exists where some people think that in Islam a woman does as she's told by her husband or father and disobeys at her peril. Frankly, that's codswallop. A muslim woman can be as strong-headed as any non-muslim woman - believe you me!
.

The above post is a blatant lie and utterly untrue. Not for the first time I have seen Muslims engaging in Taqqiya to hide the more unpalatable parts of their belief system.

threeleggedhors

Palmach wrote: »

The above post is a blatant lie and utterly untrue. Not for the first time I have seen Muslims engaging in Taqqiya to hide the more unpalatable parts of their belief system.

Here here, well said

irishconvert

Enough of the muppetery please. If this thread doesn't go back on topic very quickly it will be closed.

Kotek Besar

Palmach wrote: »

The above post is a blatant lie and utterly untrue. Not for the first time I have seen Muslims engaging in Taqqiya to hide the more unpalatable parts of their belief system.

Sigh.. Oh dear.

threeleggedhors wrote: »

Here here, well said

Hear Hear, if you please.

Palmach

Kotek Besar wrote: »

Sigh.. Oh dear.

Ok I am going to give some statements about women in Islam that to me, an atheist, tells me they are very much second class citizens.

1. A women's testimony in court is half that of a man's.
2. A women's inheritance is half that of a man.
3. Men have the right to beat their wives when they are disobedient.
4. A man gets custody of the children in a divorce once they reach the age of 7.
5. A man needs to say "I divorce you" 3 times for the divorce to be legal on the other hand the procedure for a woman to initiate divorce is long and complex.
6. Under Sharia law a women cannot be a judge nor hold high sttae office.


Now is there any of the above I have wrong? I don't think so.

caseyann

oceanclub wrote: »

That's weird - most of us who were born Catholics had issues with them.



P.

Speak for yourself
Personally loved it in primary and no one i know had a problem with it.
It got tedious in secondary school as you already learned it all before.Now if it was changed to a section of history it would be more interesting for older age group.
Also parents who forced their kids to go to any religious mass such as mosque or synagogue,after they became of age and able to choose to want to go or not and didn't let them make that choice is wrong.That goes for Muslims and every religion in world.

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Everyone who isn't a Catholic would feel that way; I know I did.

Secular schools would treat all people equally without prejudice to their religion.

Muslim kids in my school didn't partake in Catholicism by choice of parents,over on atheism forum they consider that child abuse and indoctrination,because not giving their children the chance to learn other beliefs.
The ones i worked with in schools didnt even notice,they coloured in pictures and were given other work to do during religion class if they couldn't move them to another class.If the parents were overly Religious,they had a choice not to move here and expect our religion to be put on back burner to suit them. Wouldn't happen in their countries for us if we lived there!
Friends of mine moved to Saudi and had to be home schooled.
If people are moving to a predominately catholic country and they are Muslim then they should either put up with it or home school their kids.
If they want their own schools then they should fund it for themselves,but expecting to get special privileges because they come in to the country and choose to and choose to go to our schools,not Irish problem tbh.
We dont have to change out country to suit them,they choose to move here.
If you dont like catholic religion not our problem.
Catholic schools are in the majority not prejudice against any other religion,not stopping it and not teaching a religion that is not apart of our lives is not prejudiced either.
Parent: my child doesn't do religion,face of oh surprise but Teacher: ok what you would like them to do,Is it ok if they partake in the class or would you like them to be moved to another class while religion is been taught?
Or parent: we are Muslim: Teacher: would you like them to be apart of the class and listen or moved to another class while religion is been taught:
Is how it is handled.
If parents havent got balls to stand up and say i would like my child not to partake in religion class not schools problem.Parents problem.

Why exactly did you feel that way in school?

oceanclub

Personally loved it in primary and no one i know had a problem with it.

You don't know any lapsed Catholics who had a problem with school as a kid? How old are you, by any chance?

P.

caseyann

oceanclub wrote: »

You don't know any lapsed Catholics who had a problem with school as a kid? How old are you, by any chance?

P.

I was a lapsed catholic myself at one time,but that was due to been a teen and not bothered about things like that.I had to worry about growing up and peer pressure among hardships in life.I forgot about religion for long time.And i questioned it for a while not because of school,it was finding my own way and i did.
But no i dont know anyone who is lapsed catholic or as a kid who had problem with religion.
My age is not relevant I am young

oceanclub

caseyann wrote: »

I was a lapsed catholic myself at one time,but that was due to been a teen and not bothered about things like that.

Er, not being religious during your teen years is hardly being a lapsed Catholic.

P.

caseyann

oceanclub wrote: »

Er, not being religious during your teen years is hardly being a lapsed Catholic.

P.

Oh so whats a lapsed catholic to you :rolleyes:

iceman7

in the words of john lennon,[whatever gets you through the night];)