Living in Ireland as a Muslim

Palmach

caseyann wrote: »

S
Friends of mine moved to Saudi and had to be home schooled.
If people are moving to a predominately catholic country and they are Muslim then they should either put up with it or home school their kids.
If they want their own schools then they should fund it for themselves,but expecting to get special privileges because they come in to the country and choose to and choose to go to our schools,not Irish problem tbh.
We dont have to change out country to suit them,they choose to move here.
If you dont like catholic religion not our problem.

Saudi Arabia is a primitive backward theocracy so can't compare us to them. We are an advanced democracy. Only in democracies where people vote for the government should people accept the law of the land. Saudi Arabia is not such a place and so should be castigated when ever possible for its laws and culture which are forced on people.

If there are Irish Muslims and they want their kids taught religion they should have it if other religions are having it. After school religous instruction should be provided for any religion that wants it provided this instruction don't descend into preaching hatred and exclusion. The schools themselves should be secular. Irish Muslims should get the same shake as everyone else.

irishconvert

Palmach wrote: »

Saudi Arabia is a primitive backward theocracy so can't compare us to them. We are an advanced democracy. Only in democracies where people vote for the government should people accept the law of the land. Saudi Arabia is not such a place and so should be castigated when ever possible for its laws and culture which are forced on people.

I second that. Saudi Arabia also shouldn't be used as an example of an Islamic state. It is very far from how an Islamic country should be, in fact it is probably the worst Islamic country in the world.

Palmach wrote: »

If there are Irish Muslims and they want their kids taught religion they should have it if other religions are having it. After school religous instruction should be provided for any religion that wants it provided this instruction don't descend into preaching hatred and exclusion. The schools themselves should be secular. Irish Muslims should get the same shake as everyone else.

My opinion is that religious class should be used simply to educate the children about all the major religions of the world. It shouldn't be biased in favour of any one religion and teach the children to practise that religion (unless it is a religious school of course).

the_syco

lauddly_irish wrote: »

Personnaly i think that veil should be banned in oublic places because it is against the rights of women..

Although I agree, I still have to LoL, as you are sayin we must restrict the womens right in an effort to give her more rights...

Palmach wrote: »

1. A women's testimony in court is half that of a man's.
2. A women's inheritance is half that of a man.
3. Men have the right to beat their wives when they are disobedient.
4. A man gets custody of the children in a divorce once they reach the age of 7.
5. A man needs to say "I divorce you" 3 times for the divorce to be legal on the other hand the procedure for a woman to initiate divorce is long and complex.
6. Under Sharia law a women cannot be a judge nor hold high sttae office.

Sounds like the laws of a messed up country, rather than the rules of the religion... a big difference.

Palmach

the_syco wrote: »

Sounds like the laws of a f**ked up country, rather than the rules of the religion... a big difference.

No the above are Islamic rules alright. Not every Muslim might follow them but if they have Sharia as in Saudi or Iran or Aceh or Kalamantan (sp) then the above rules tend to be transposed into law.

oceanclub

caseyann wrote: »

Oh so whats a lapsed catholic to you :rolleyes:

Well, you admit yourself it was just a teen thing, peer pressure, etc and that you're religious again. "Lapsed Catholic" unusually refers to an adult who has undergone a crisis of faith and left the church; not someone who just didn't go to church for a while as a teenager because they discovered boys and music. I imagine in that case, most people in the country, including most bishops, were "lapsed Catholics".

P.

irishconvert

caseyann and oceanclub, if you want to discuss catholism please take it to another forum or PM. This is off-topic in this discussion and forum.

Thanks.

irishconvert

Palmach wrote: »

No the above are Islamic rules alright. Not every Muslim might follow them but if they have Sharia as in Saudi or Iran or Aceh or Kalamantan (sp) then the above rules tend to be transposed into law.

Can you please back up this point as it is not my understanding:

"5. A man needs to say "I divorce you" 3 times for the divorce to be legal on the other hand the procedure for a woman to initiate divorce is long and complex. "

saa

caseyann wrote: »

Or parent: we are Muslim: Teacher: would you like them to be apart of the class and listen or moved to another class while religion is been taught:
Is how it is handled.
If parents havent got balls to stand up and say i would like my child not to partake in religion class not schools problem.Parents problem.

Got balls anyone?

Most parents don't know its a problem for their child because the child can't speak up for itself, doesn't want to disrupt or make their child seem different or excluded (one of the main reasons why many parents go through the whole rigmarole of communion confirmation etc. meaning those parents would not partake in these ceremonies if they were not conducted through the education system)


Teaching and collectively practicing one religion as a truth in schools is completely problematic especially in a multicultural society, you yourself deemed it to be the parents problem.
The schools responsibility is to best cater for all their students and avoid scenarios of exclusion). Religion should be taught by parents if they so wish to do that, if a child is brought up by parents who do not do this s/he will eventually find religion as an educated person if this is the correct spiritual path for that individual.

deravarra

Palmach wrote: »

Ok I am going to give some statements about women in Islam that to me, an atheist, tells me they are very much second class citizens.

1. A women's testimony in court is half that of a man's.
2. A women's inheritance is half that of a man.
3. Men have the right to beat their wives when they are disobedient.
4. A man gets custody of the children in a divorce once they reach the age of 7.
5. A man needs to say "I divorce you" 3 times for the divorce to be legal on the other hand the procedure for a woman to initiate divorce is long and complex.
6. Under Sharia law a women cannot be a judge nor hold high sttae office.


Now is there any of the above I have wrong? I don't think so.

I know its late jumping in on this posting - but man, what a load of garbage. So many points are blatantly untrue.

Where did you "learn" all this?

Palmach

irishconvert wrote: »

Can you please back up this point as it is not my understanding:

"5. A man needs to say "I divorce you" 3 times for the divorce to be legal on the other hand the procedure for a woman to initiate divorce is long and complex. "

That is what I have been told. It was also in the Sunday Telegraph yesterday. The above is the situation.

Palmach

deravarra wrote: »

I know its late jumping in on this posting - but man, what a load of garbage. So many points are blatantly untrue.

Where did you "learn" all this?

Ok I am prepared to be shown the real truth as per yourself so tell me what is the position as regard to the above. All the above have been confirmed by Muslims I know.

Jaafa

Palmach wrote: »

Ok I am prepared to be shown the real truth as per yourself so tell me what is the position as regard to the above. All the above have been confirmed by Muslims I know.

I will address your first point. Maybe you will learn not to take what people say as the truth without researching the subject from both sides your self. Even if they are Muslim.

The only verse that implies a woman's word is half of a man in court is that of 2:282. Any other verse that mentions witnesses (of which there are 5 more IIRC) do not mention gender at all.

So you will note that this must be a specific case. And indeed it refers to the matter of a contract of debt.

Here is the verse: 'When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligation in a fixed period of time reduce them to writing and get two witnesses out of your own men and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses so that if one of them errs the other can remind her'

So as you can see the subject matter is financial. Now who would have been the more knowledgeable in financial matters back then? (and in some cases to this day) Generally speaking men. As they were the main breadwinners. So two men would be called for. If not two men, one man and two women.

Not because the women's word is worth less but simply 'so that if one of them errs the other can remind her' as women likely would have been less knowledgeable in these matters back then. Nowadays of course women are at least as knowledgeable on financial matters as men so I don't think this verse applies any longer.

So please next time look into it for your self and always remember to keep the time and context of the verse in mind.

oceanclub

Jaafa wrote: »

I will address your first point. Maybe you will learn not to take what people say as the truth without researching the subject from both sides your self. Even if they are Muslim.

The only verse that implies a woman's word is half of a man in court is that of 2:282. Any other verse that mentions witnesses (of which there are 5 more IIRC) do not mention gender at all.

Am curious - which Islamic/predominant Islamic countries have sharia courts that give women's testimony equal weight?

P.

Jaafa

oceanclub wrote: »

Am curious - which Islamic/predominant Islamic countries have sharia courts that give women's testimony equal weight?

P.

I'm not knowledgeable on sharia or court systems in other countries so I can't answer that.

oceanclub

Jaafa wrote: »

I'm not knowledgeable on sharia or court systems in other countries so I can't answer that.

As far as I'm aware, none do (I'm open to correction on this), so it all reminds me of the No True Scotsman argument:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

P.

Jaafa

oceanclub wrote: »

As far as I'm aware, none do (I'm open to correction on this), so it all reminds me of the No True Scotsman argument:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

P.

Indeed. It would seem if what you say is true then the no true Scotsman argument may apply.

Can you also give me an example of which countries do not give equal weight to women in court?

Palmach

Jaafa wrote: »

Can you also give me an example of which countries do not give equal weight to women in court?

Saudi Arabia.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=182

"A woman is not considered a full person before the court. In accordance with the Saudi interpretation of Shari'a, the testimony of one man is equivalent to that of two women."

Jaafa

Palmach wrote: »

Saudi Arabia.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=182

"A woman is not considered a full person before the court. In accordance with the Saudi interpretation of Shari'a, the testimony of one man is equivalent to that of two women."

Well let me just say that is a disgrace and a clear misinterpretation of the Quran as I outlined above. (I know I know true Scotsman and all that) We both know Saudi Arabia treats its women as second class in some regards but Saudi Arabia has never represented Islam.

Also Palmach if I may now challenge your 4th point about cutody of a child. Allow me to show your are incorrect on that point too. From this source:http://www.islamic-sharia.org/children/islamic-perspective-on-child-custody-after-divorce.html


In recognition of an infant’s need for female care, all the juristic schools give first preference to a mother’s claim to physical custody of her young child provided that she satisfies all the requirements for a female custodian. After divorce during the period of the mother’s custody, she is generally entitled to receive custody wages from the father to help her maintain the child. Islamic Jurisprudential inferences Islamic law on custody of children after divorce is based on several hadith relating to how the Prophet sallalahu Alaihe wasallam dealt with cases brought before him. One of the key relevant hadith is the following: According to Amr Ibn Shu'aib, a woman came to the Prophet* and said: 'Truly my belly served as a container for my son here, and my breast served as a skin-bag for him (to drink out of) and my bosom served as a refuge for him; and now his father has divorced me, and he (also) desires to take him away from me.' The Prophet sallalahu Alaihe wasallam said: 'You have a better right to have him, as long as you do not marry again.

Palmach

Jaafa wrote: »

Well let me just say that is a disgrace and a clear misinterpretation of the Quran as I outlined above. (I know I know true Scotsman and all that) We both know Saudi Arabia treats its women as second class in some regards but Saudi Arabia has never represented Islam.

Also Palmach if I may now challenge your 4th point about cutody of a child. Allow me to show your are incorrect on that point too. From this source:http://www.islamic-sharia.org/children/islamic-perspective-on-child-custody-after-divorce.html


In recognition of an infant’s need for female care, all the juristic schools give first preference to a mother’s claim to physical custody of her young child provided that she satisfies all the requirements for a female custodian. After divorce during the period of the mother’s custody, she is generally entitled to receive custody wages from the father to help her maintain the child. Islamic Jurisprudential inferences Islamic law on custody of children after divorce is based on several hadith relating to how the Prophet sallalahu Alaihe wasallam dealt with cases brought before him. One of the key relevant hadith is the following: According to Amr Ibn Shu'aib, a woman came to the Prophet* and said: 'Truly my belly served as a container for my son here, and my breast served as a skin-bag for him (to drink out of) and my bosom served as a refuge for him; and now his father has divorced me, and he (also) desires to take him away from me.' The Prophet sallalahu Alaihe wasallam said: 'You have a better right to have him, as long as you do not marry again.

Thanks for answering. I have a question. If one reads Anti-Islam sites like Jiahdwatch the interpretation of Sharia as per Saudi Arabia as the correct interpretation of Sharia. You clealry disagree and as a Muslim say Saudi Arabia doesn't represent Islam. So where is a good example of Islam in action? Is there an example of Sharia with equality and fairness? I ask because the other countries were Sharia is loudly proclamation like Iran, Afghanistan and Aceh are the antithesis of just tolerant fair socities in my book.

I also have been speaking to Muslims living in Ireland who are quite devout and say they have no problem living here so I presumed there was no great barrier to being devout and not living under the Sharia version as practiced in places like Saudi Arabia.

dead one

Palmach wrote: »

. So where is a good example of Islam in action?
.

See, prophet muahmmad, his companions and generations after them... They are true example of islam in action... Majority of Muslim countries don't represent islam or sharia....... Don't judge Islam by using the example of Saudi Arabia or afghanistan or iran..... Their government don't represent true islamic government.... Take example of Pakistan, pakistani government has nothing to do with islam... they believe more in American government than God or islam...

Jaafa

Palmach wrote: »

Thanks for answering. I have a question. If one reads Anti-Islam sites like Jiahdwatch the interpretation of Sharia as per Saudi Arabia as the correct interpretation of Sharia. You clealry disagree and as a Muslim say Saudi Arabia doesn't represent Islam. So where is a good example of Islam in action? Is there an example of Sharia with equality and fairness? I ask because the other countries were Sharia is loudly proclamation like Iran, Afghanistan and Aceh are the antithesis of just tolerant fair socities in my book.

I also have been speaking to Muslims living in Ireland who are quite devout and say they have no problem living here so I presumed there was no great barrier to being devout and not living under the Sharia version as practiced in places like Saudi Arabia.

Unfortunately I don't think there is a very good interpretation of Sharia at state level to my limited knowledge. Then again as I said before I haven't looked into it much. I think for it to fit on that scale it needs to be altered in places.

And of course like you say Sharia is not absolutely necessary for a Muslim to live under.