Quick tyre Question

cormie

Just a quick question. If I've 2 decent tyres at the back and need 2 new ones, should I just buy the two for the front, or would it be much better to splash out and buy 4 altogether? Would this be seen as a sensible investment or just a lavish throw away of money that only perfectionists would do? The ones at the back are pretty much brand new and the ones at the front are on their last legs.

Also, if anyone can recommend a good set for 175/70/R14 I'd appreciate it. I could buy from eiretyres/camskill and get them fitted in Sandyford/Dundrum

Midnight_EG

Assuming it's a front wheel drive car here.
If they have 65% thread left on the back two, then do a process called rotation, whereby you put the two front tyres on the back, and the backs on the front. Should do for a while, assuming there's a good bit of thread left.

cormie

Nah, they definitely need new ones, thanks for the tip though

Prenderb

I wouldn't think there's any need to buy 4 tyres if 2 still have plenty of tread left. I would echo the 2nd poster's advice to put the newer tyres on the back. Once they're bedded in you'll have (ever so slightly) more grip at the back of the car which (some say) is a safer configuration. This becomes more important and noticeable as the 2 sets wear more.

Midnight_EG

In that case, continue with the rotation, but get two new tyres and put them straight on the back

cormie

Hmm, are you both saying the same thing:o

Never thought to put the new ones on the back, would this be just for RWD or FWD or both?

Midnight_EG

cormie wrote: »

Hmm, are you both saying the same thing:o

Never thought to put the new ones on the back, would this be just for RWD or FWD or both?

I got really confused and changed back to front.

Put the new ones on the back, let them wear in a bit because new tyres are generally slippier when brand new, so you wanna bed them in on the back, then rotate

Prenderb

Yeah, we are (were)(are again). New tyres to rear. I'd use this advice for FWD, RWD and 4WD. It means that the car's tendency will be to understeer rather than oversteer (or more obviously, more grip on the back means the back is less likely to slip on you)

Edit: Midnight changed his opinion - I haven't. Now we have a difference of opinion and need an expert!
Edit.1: We are in agreement again.

Midnight_EG

Prenderb wrote: »

Yeah, we are (were). New tyres to rear. I'd use this advice for FWD, RWD and 4WD. It means that the car's tendency will be to understeer rather than oversteer (or more obviously, more grip on the back means the back is less likely to slip on you)

Edit: Midnight changed his opinion - I haven't. Now we have a difference of opinion and need an expert!

I explained I got confused, I meant back!



:P

Prenderb

Recommendations will depend on a number of things -

Type of car
Type of driving
Budget.

I recommend spending as much as you possibly can on tyres. They ultimately do all the work on your car - they accelerate, they brake and they steer. The contact patch on each tyre is about the size of a fiver or thereabouts, so it's worth spending as much as you can to maximise the work that that contact patch can do.

In general, any of the major brand names make a good purchase - Pirelli, continental, bridgestone, semperit, uniroyal etc. I've had experience of non-major brands (cheap chinese tyres) that were on a car I bought and I really really hated them. Changed them for uniroyals recently and never looked back - I noticed a huge change for a reasonable cost difference.

Bear in mind that the difference between a 40 euro tyre and an 80 euro tyre might seem big when you're buying it, but bearing in mind that a tyre will last you about 16-20 thousand miles if not more, the cost difference disappears when you see the advantages over that time.

Oh, and put the new ones on the back. ;)

questioner

second that about the quality of the tyres, have had eagle f1s since the start and wouldnt put cheap **** on it - car/personal safety versus saving couple bucks that I'll blow anyway.

I dont know why you would put new tyres on the back of a FWD drive though - Traction not more important where your steering/accelerating from?

cormie

Thanks again for the advice, just looking at camskill.co.uk ( http://camskill.co.uk/products.php?plid=m4b0s387p0 ) and in my size of 175/70/R14, the top 9 most expensive are brands you haven't mentioned so I'm wondering are they still good? The most expensive being Goodyear, which I've definitely heard of before, Pirelli is 10th most expensive.

On eiretyres.com, Michelin are the most expensive at €85 a pop. I've got Michelin on my transit and spent a lot on them at the time.

Again, I wonder would I get the advantage out of a more expensive tyre by only getting 2, or would I need the 4?

corktina

i would always put the new tyres on the front.

Be careful when rotating the wheels as a lot of tyres nowadays are directional and should always be kept to the same side of the car.

questioner

questioner wrote: »

I dont know why you would put new tyres on the back of a FWD drive though - Traction not more important where your steering/accelerating from?

The view is that lose the front and you can probably get it back as you won't lose it that much anyway, lose the back and most drivers won't know what to do. In 10 years of driving 8 cars of my own, a company car and loads of rentals the only fwd car I found to be tail happy was a 2005 Astra, I had two for 6 weeks each while working abroad. Regardless of what crap tyres I had on any other car I have never found the rear to be slippy on a fwd unless I wanted it to be. Driving normally with 99% of fwd chassis the back won't be going anywhere.

However as understeer is easier to deal with than oversteer folks recommend best tyres in the back. Of course many folks would put them on the front as the front are the driving & steering wheels and also do most of the stopping.

You'd want to be very unlucky to regret where you put them really, very very very unlucky.

Prenderb

Michelin and Goodyear are also very good brands. Read a little about them first though, some of the brands make soft sporty tyres that are designed for lots of grip but compromise on tyre life.

To explain the "new tyre on back" position. Assuming that after a hundred miles or so, the new tyres will be worn in, there will be more grip on the back than on the front. I am of course not saying there's no grip on the front, but just that there will be a difference. Depending on the age and tread depth of the tyres.

This is A Good Thing because it means that in a grip-limited situation (too fast round a bend, for example) you will tend to lose the grip from the front tyres first (because they have some amount less, remember). This is a safer situation because whilst your car mightn't turn as much or as quickly as you'd like, it'll still stay broadly heading forwards and thus be more controllable.

Edit: Was posting at same time as RoverJames! While I agree with what he says about being unlucky to be in the situation where the above advice applies, it still maximises your safety and grip to put fresher tyres on the rear and it's little or no trouble to do it or have it done. Imagine if you were unlucky and had it done and it helped even a little!

If the situation was reversed, and you had more grip on the front, this is A Bad Thing. In the same scenario, too fast round the bend, your rear tyres will tend to lose grip before the fronts. (Has anyone had this happen?) This is Much Worse than before because the rear of the car will swing out and possibly pass you out. It's much harder to control.

I've taken the time to do a wee google and found this from michelin's website.

robbie99

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5YsQ_a_ijA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSz7cm6MwH0

Prenderb

Great videos, should be a sticky somewhere!

Drummerboy08

corktina wrote: »

i would always put the new tyres on the front.

Be careful when rotating the wheels as a lot of tyres nowadays are directional and should always be kept to the same side of the car.

I agree. I've always been told to put the new tyres to the front. Thats what I done to my own car a few months ago, and its perfect. Granted the rear tyres did have plenty of thread.

macnab

I put Vredestein QUATRAC 2's on the wifes Corolla Verso, I made a conscious decision to fit all-season tyres as I had a bad skid last winter. I will never fit "summer" tyres to the family car again, they just dont work below about 7 Degrees C.

cormie

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

I agree. I've always been told to put the new tyres to the front. Thats what I done to my own car a few months ago, and its perfect. Granted the rear tyres did have plenty of thread.

Would the above feedback and videos not change your mind at all? The consensus seems to definitely favour new on the rear..

I wonder what would happen if you had 4 brand new tyres, exact same thread and pressure going around a corner like in the vidjoes..

robbie99

cormie wrote: »

I wonder what would happen if you had 4 brand new tyres, exact same thread and pressure going around a corner like in the vidjoes..

You'd be able to corner even faster, with less understeer, before starting to lose grip.

cormie

Hi again folks, I still haven't ordered the two new tyres. Should I just go for the most expensive, or should I go for a particular type based on my driving? They'd be used doing an average speed of 100km ph, approximately 20,000 miles a year, in all conditions, all over the country, motorway and country roads.

Camskill and Eiretyres both have different brands so not sure which would be best to go for.

Any feedback appreciated, would like to get the order in asap

woody33

Probably best to stick to a European make.

Some tyre tests, though they are testing specific models in each brand :

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/products/total_tyre_guide_2009/242038/results.html

R.O.R

cormie wrote: »

Hi again folks, I still haven't ordered the two new tyres. Should I just go for the most expensive, or should I go for a particular type based on my driving? They'd be used doing an average speed of 100km ph, approximately 20,000 miles a year, in all conditions, all over the country, motorway and country roads.

Camskill and Eiretyres both have different brands so not sure which would be best to go for.

Any feedback appreciated, would like to get the order in asap

Van tyres are probably different, but if you pay for something decent you should get good mileage out of them.

A set of Conti Premium Contacts were fitted to my car when I bought it. My car is used only for commuting to / from work so it's mainly motorway or a decent R-Road. I've put just over 41,000km on the tyres since fitting and I checked them last week with a proper measuring device. Front's are the worst with 5mm of tread left, rears are about 6mm - tyres were rotated about 20,000km ago.

Grip in the cold is pretty ****e, but I've never had a lock up under braking - it's just wheelspin taking off. No real bends to cope with on it's journey so cornering grip isn't really an issue.

Fizman

I picked up a Mk5 GTI 3 weeks ago and it has 4 Bridgestone Potenzas on. The front 2 are nearing the end so I've been doing a bit of reading up on the owner forums.

Vredesteins are getting some very positive reviews from quite a lot of the users. I reckon I'll probably go for them in a month or so. May be worth your while looking into those OP.

questioner

good video, learned me right

Those cars in the US vid are quite likely to be rwd though. All the new tyres on the rear is all well and good, how many of us have actually encountered oversteer like on the skid track on a road.

In an emergency stop scenario I'd sooner have the better tyres on the front.

cormie

Thanks again for the replies.

Seems the continentals aren't available in 175/70/R14 on camskill or eiretyres so I'll probably go with either the goodyear or vredestein hi trac!

Infact, I'll probably go with the Vredestein!

zilog_jones

RoverJames wrote: »

Those cars in the US vid are quite likely to be rwd though.

The Ford Taurus (the white and blue cars tested) is FWD, as are the large majority of cars sold in the US these days outside of SUVs, pickups and barges like the Crown Vic.

Anyway it doesn't matter what wheels are being driven - the last thing you want in any car is losing traction on the rear wheels.

cormie

I was about to buy the Vredestein Hi Trac, but see that on eiretyres they are classed as summer tyres. Would it be better to go for an all season for Irish weather instead? Also, it says on the autoexpress link that fuel economy with them needs improving, I wonder how much economy would be effected?

If we have another Winter like we just had, I'll be getting winter tyres, but would all seasons be better for the typical weather we have throughout the rest of the year I wonder?

Could just go for the goodyear instead maybe..

cjt156

I got Vredestein Sportrac 3s fitted in November - the improvement over the Goodyear Eagles they replaced was amazing. By the time the ice and snow hit they were nicely scrubbed in and behaved very well. I would have had little confidence in the GYs in that weather.
Compared to Pirelli P6000s, ContiEcoContact and the GYs these Vreds are the best I've had on the 156 for grip. I'l be interested to see how they wear.

cormie

Thanks for the feedback

I don't see any sportrac available in my size, do you know if they are similar to the hitrac?

cpoh1

I always have put new tyres on the front and always will. It takes roughly 200-300miles to scrub the releasing compound used on new tyres to wear off and tyres to come good.

In REAL world driving conditions having more grip at the front wheels is the be all and end all - stopping distances are the most crucial thing. Its your front wheels that lock up under braking. At the end of the day your typical mother of three with a renault scenic wont be driving her car around town anywhere near the limits required to have the rear end break away even in poor weather conditions. That extra grip at the front for braking could be the difference between ending up someones backside or avoiding an accident however.

Its important to remember that those videos/demonstrations are all done on track with cars pushing their boundaries, something that doesnt (shouldnt!) happen on the road with 90% of cars. In these instances front wheel grip and braking effort is the most important factor. New tyres to the front for me please.

cjt156

cormie wrote: »

I don't see any sportrac available in my size, do you know if they are similar to the hitrac?

Similar; here's a comparison on the Camskill site - in my tyre size.

Linky-dink.

Highlight the Vredestein brand and click "apply filter".

R.O.R

cormie wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback

I don't see any sportrac available in my size, do you know if they are similar to the hitrac?

cormie - are these going on a car or a van?

If they are going on a van (even an Astra Van), don't forget to get the proper commercial rated tyres, otherwise it's a straight DOE fail and you'll have to shell out for another set.

What the tyres have to be, I don't know, but Slidey in the 4x4 forum would be able to tell you.

cormie

Thanks again for the replies everyone!

Jaysus ROR, I didn't realise it would have to be reinforced tyres on the Astra! Thanks for pointing that out! Guess that limits the options a lot then and means the Vredestein are out of the question

cormie

oh hang on, it appears the Vredestein ARE reinforced, infact, they are the only 175/70/R14 van tyres on either camskill or eiretyres, hows that for luck

http://ssl.delti.com/cgi-bin/rshop.pl?details=Ordern&cart_id=71814648.124.16678&typ=R-119186&ranzahl=4&Breite=175&Quer=70&Felge=14&Speed=H&weiter=0&kategorie=6&Ang_pro_Seite=15&rf=1&Transport=P&dsco=124

I think the XL in the product description means it's for extra load capacity?

cormie

Ok I'm a bit confused, the hi trac on camskill aren't listed in van tyres, infact, no 175/70/R14 is listed in the van tyre page. On Eiretyres, the only result for 175/70/R14 reinforced, is the Vredestein, and this model is stated as XL. The ply on the vredestein camskill page is also stated as XL. Camskill doesn't mention anything about it being a summer or winter tyre, Eiretyres says it's a summer tyre.

The two sites appear to have the same tyre, but they don't seem to be categorised the same

So much for the thread title anyway

This does highlight why it is often better to go to a tyre fitter (in real life) and have a chat and price some tyres. Compare the difference to buying tyres on line, factoring in that often you mightn't have a clue what you are buying and deciding that it may be wiser to buy them in a tyre outlet

cormie

Ah but where's the misery in that?

See the problem with me is, I like to put in the misery the first time I need something to be sure I'm getting exactly what's right for me (at the best price ), then I'll know for future reference and always be able to go for that option or from that source. I even based buying my Luton transit on the fact I had a transit already and knew a good place to get parts and a great transit mechanic and once I know about if these tyres are suitable for DOE, I'll probably keep buying them from the same place at the good price and getting them fitted at the same place (as I have before)

cormie

cormie wrote: »

Ok I'm a bit confused, the hi trac on camskill aren't listed in van tyres, infact, no 175/70/R14 is listed in the van tyre page. On Eiretyres, the only result for 175/70/R14 reinforced, is the Vredestein, and this model is stated as XL. The ply on the vredestein camskill page is also stated as XL. Camskill doesn't mention anything about it being a summer or winter tyre, Eiretyres says it's a summer tyre.

The two sites appear to have the same tyre, but they don't seem to be categorised the same

So much for the thread title anyway

Still confused about this, Googled and have read that 6pr is for commercial vans and 4pr is for normal cars, but the Vredesteins don't mention 6 or 4 anywhere!

This is the last thing I need to know before I order, just that they are ok for commercial DOE, any help would be appreciated

cormie

Another quick question actually, it says on eiretyres that the price includes VAT, however, I don't see anywhere stating that this is Irish VAT. As far as I know, they are based in Germany, so does anyone know if it's German VAT or Irish VAT (Which I can claim back in my return a LOT easier than if it was German).

colm_mcm

I don't think you need commercial tyres on an Astra van. From Toyotas I know that Yaris Vans, Auris vans and Corolla vans use the same tyres as the passengers, and commercial Touregs etc with 20 inch wheels don't use commercial tyres.
They're car derived vans, which would be different to say a Transit etc.

cormie

I checked the tyres on it and there's no mention of 6 ply, XL or anything like that, it just says 175/70/R14 T, and I think T is the speed rating so I'm not sure if the one on it, which would have passed the last DOE, are reinforced themselves

As long as the Vredestein are the ones I need and wont pose any problems with the DOE, then I'll buy them straight away, but I don't know if they are

colm_mcm

For example, the tyre size listed for a Combo is 175/70 R14 T

cormie

So do you think the Vredesteins would be ok then?

colm_mcm

If it was me, I'd buy them.

cormie

Yeah I've been putting it off long enough I think Would be interesting to hear what ROR thinks just incase he knows something we don't

Esel

Cormie, just follow your usual practice - do all the research, then buy the cheapest ones you can find!

R.O.R

cormie wrote: »

Yeah I've been putting it off long enough I think Would be interesting to hear what ROR thinks just incase he knows something we don't

I'm not 100% sure on the whole thing. I just know we recently had a DOE fail on a Navara because (along with other things) the tyres weren't the correct rating for a commercial. In the past I know a load of Combo's in 04 failed their first DOE as the factory tyres weren't the correct rating.

Slidey, one of the Mods in the 4x4 forum is a DOE tester, so would be the best man to ask. Car derived vans might not need commercials tyres, but I'd double check before buying them and having to replace them to pass a DOE.

cormie

Cool, I'll pop Slidey a PM and ask him to have a look here, he'll regret you telling me he's a DOE tester

Even if it DOES need commercial rated tyres, are the Vredesteins not suitable if they are rated XL?

Ah Esel, with tyres I'd go for the expensive options, got the best tyres I could find for the Transit, Michelin Agilis and they cost loads :eek: But I'll still drive on a near empty tank if I know there's cheaper fuel ahead