I wish I had my faith back

chozometroid

doctoremma wrote: »

Hang on. You say the analogy doesn't strike you. Then you say it's quite similar to one you use to view the passage of time. Then you reiterate that you don't like it

Anyway, you miss the point. The laser/ruler analogy is how Dawkins imagines it. It's his personal imagery. I understand it but don't find it particularly striking - I prefer my fireworks.

You are under no obligation to like either Dawkins laser/ruler or my fireworks/earth stuff. Nor am I obliged to try to invent other scenarios that you may prefer Do you have any personal imagery you would like to share or was this simply an opportunity to slag Dawkins?

I said it was similar to an idea I had, but that does not mean it had the effect Dawkins wanted to give. My idea was not to try to give any value to life, but merely to think of a model of how it works.

Your fireworks analogy I had not yet read at the time, so forgive me. I don't find that it represents the same thing, however. Dawkin's seemed to represent the flow of time and the narrow window through which life shines upon us. It doesn't deal much with what we do with our life or how our interactions with others are somehow meaningful.

No, you are not obligated to do anything at all for me. Sorry I asked anything of you.

I'm not slagging Dawkins, either. I just didn't find this analogy he used to be as great as he probably thought it was. I'm sure it was profound to many others, however, and congrats to him for that.

Zombrex

chozometroid wrote: »

I said it was similar to an idea I had, but that does not mean it had the effect Dawkins wanted to give. My idea was not to try to give any value to life, but merely to think of a model of how it works.

Your fireworks analogy I had not yet read at the time, so forgive me. I don't find that it represents the same thing, however. Dawkin's seemed to represent the flow of time and the narrow window through which life shines upon us. It doesn't deal much with what we do with our life or how our interactions with others are somehow meaningful.

No, you are not obligated to do anything at all for me. Sorry I asked anything of you.

I'm not slagging Dawkins, either. I just didn't find this analogy he used to be as great as he probably thought it was. I'm sure it was profound to many others, however, and congrats to him for that.

I think the point of the analogy is to counter the very religious idea that our lives don't matter unless they last for eternity in heaven or some such.

The idea is that something very short can still be very bright and beautiful. And in fact it's shortness should make us cherish it even more.

pclancy

I don't remember a thing about the 1.7 Billion years that went past before I was born so the thought of the rest of eternity after I die is equally unscary.

Goduznt Xzst

OP... what you are going through is natural. Just remember it's always darkest before the dawn.

Like with a lot of human proverbs, it takes a feeling of despair and disillusionment before you reorganize and accept, like a phoenix rising from the ashes.

There will come a point when you will hit a rough patch, and you won't feel the longing to pray, and you will come out of it knowing that you alone will have solved it without the crutch of your God.

At that point you will wonder why you ever needed that belief in a God at all.

Part of the reason why Atheists do tend to talk about their lack of belief a lot is that when you finally break away from it and see it from a fresh perspective, you begin to see how many other people are also enslaved to this numbing mindset of praying for help when they alone have all the tools to help themselves.

chozometroid

Wicknight wrote: »

I think the point of the analogy is to counter the very religious idea that our lives don't matter unless they last for eternity in heaven or some such.

The idea is that something very short can still be very bright and beautiful. And in fact it's shortness should make us cherish it even more.

Oh, if it's to counter that semi-strawman religous idea, I get the significance, although I still don't see how it's beautiful since no one is able to recognize the beauty. There is no outside observer or a guaranteed memory passed down of all things meaningful about the billions of unique and sometimes awe-inspiring individual stories we have on Earth.

pH

pclancy wrote: »

I don't remember a thing about the 1.7 Billion years that went past before I was born so the thought of the rest of eternity after I die is equally unscary.

13.7 actually.

Anyway OP, can you address the question of hell. In your post you make it out that faith gives you heaven for eternity, which is not strictly true, unless you were practicing a faith you'd invented yourself.

Most Christian faiths teach about hell, and most point out that getting into heaven isn't easy, which implies a large proportion of us don't make it.

So given the choice between eternal torment or non-existence, which seems preferable to you?

Zombrex

chozometroid wrote: »

There is no outside observer or a guaranteed memory passed down of all things meaningful about the billions of unique and sometimes awe-inspiring individual stories we have on Earth.

That is in fact the point, that is what makes it so painfully beautiful. The observers are us, the beings that exist for such a brief flash.

Have you ever heard the phrase sometimes it is good to just stop and take a look around because life passes so quickly?

It is gone just like that, like a snow flake melting in the palm of your hand.

You either look and appreciate the beauty of the present or it is gone just like that and never comes back.

Therefore to not appreciate life, to not appreciate ever second, to focus on the future and what will happen (as so many religious people do) is to waste the true beauty of existence which is the present.

That is the theory anyway :pac:

Tim Robbins

Dean820 wrote: »

I was asked to make a thread here after I made this comment in the Christianity forum 'I wish had my faith back and losing it was of the worst experiences in your life.' And I really do believe that. Its not about being right or wrong to me, although it would be nice to know what I believe in is right.
Okay.

If you have faith and you're wrong, it means a good deal of your life was based on delusions. I think it's better to see the world and your life for what it really is and know that the only way you can change it for the better is by taking responsibility for it yourself, instead of relying on a far fetched unscientific, illogical cosmic force.

Wacker

pclancy wrote: »

I don't remember a thing about the 1.7 Billion years that went past before I was born so the thought of the rest of eternity after I die is equally unscary.

I don't remember a thing about the 5,972 years that passed before I was born :pac:

Dades

pclancy wrote:

I don't remember a thing about the 1.7 Billion years that went past before I was born so the thought of the rest of eternity after I die is equally unscary.

I'm more scared about the bits of Saturday night I can't remember!

Damned early Six Nations kick-off...

Zombrex

Wacker wrote: »

I don't remember a thing about the 5,972 years that passed before I was born :pac:

ROFL

Galvasean

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Dean, why is eternal life so appealing? Think about it. You never die. It never ends. Ever. Eventually you will surely reach the point where you want out. But you can't get out. It's life eternal. I can't imagine a worse fate. Know and realise that your existence is finite and precious. Let that knowledge spur you on to make the best of it.

An episode of the Twighlight Zone actually dealt with this theme once. A criminal dies and meets up with his guardian angel who shows him the ropes around heaven. So he goes about livin' up th good life, having loads of fun etc. Eventually though, he starts to get bore of eternal bliss because everything is too easty, too on a plate, no challenge.
So he goes about checking up the file on his life. He reads about all the bad things he did and says to his guardian angel, "If I lived such a rotten life then how come I ended up here and not the other place?"
"What do you mean?" replies the angel, "This IS the other place! Mwhahahaaha!!!!!!"

Now that's some quality television.

Undergod

Dean820 wrote: »

I was asked to make a thread here after I made this comment in the Christianity forum 'I wish had my faith back and losing it was of the worst experiences in your life.' And I really do believe that. Its not about being right or wrong to me, although it would be nice to know what I believe in is right. Before everything was nice and simple, everything was in black and white. And in a way I guess that was comforting? I dunno. Now I believe when I die its just darkness, there's nothing there. And thats a depression thought. I used prey a lot when I was young and it used help calm me, I used get a nice feeling after doing it. But now even if I try I know I'm only fooling myself, I don't believe I'm actually talking to another thing or person anymore, its just me talking to myself. Again, thats a depressing thought. I just feel like I'm by myself now and that the entire universe and human race was one big accident that just happened to occur.

I'm sure there's other things but I can't think of them now. But is there anyone else here who's annoyed they don't have faith anymore?



Anyone?




Okay.

I find the idea of oblivion after death pretty ****ing terrifying. But it doesn't change the fact that it's what I think happens. I'm not going to lie to myself about believing in God and heaven, if I truly don't believe it. Faith based in fear doesn't seem like faith at all to me.

duvlinia

I felt sad for you reading your post.

I lost my father only 2 weeks ago and the whole experience has helped not only me, but my whole family restore our faith.

Like most Irish families we were raised on the backbone of the catholic faith. Liek most people we struggled to come to terms with recent revelations and just growing up through the torture that is sometimes life.

But some amazing things happend to us during our fathers death that convinces me of the afterlife and in God.

For me the question is What? or Who?.. is god?

For me God is the whole universe. Rather than seeing God as a person (mans arrogance) I see it as being absolutely everyone. We are all part of one organism that includes the sun and the stars, the cosmos, the earth, the trees, you and me, all working together in harmony... As ONE. To me the "ONE" whole thing is God.

I think that if someone so powerful can create all around us, then SURE he can send his son down to earth. Basically he can do anything.. Isnt that the point? So I can see that too.

I am far from being a bible basher, but it seems to me everyone is easily able to follow and admire great people such as John Lennon, and Mandela, and not so great like Simaon Cowel and Take that .. on a whim.

Dads death convinced me that there is an afterlife. What that afterlife is is pure speculation. But its there. I have witnessed it.

I am not critising or judging anyone. I believe in each to theri own. This is only my perspective and maybe it might ring a bell. Maybe nobody will read it. Thats how these things work.

But what I saw, witnessed and feel since and during my fathers passing is that he is still very much present. Personally I believe he has gone to heaven. But when he was alive he was part of this ONE organism as I put it. Just because his body has given up doenst mean he leaves the organism.

We need to stop seeing the body as the life force within us. It is our soul and the love it exudes which is the light and life within us.

To go through this agony and this extacy in our living year and then just cease to exist doesnt make sence. Even when a candle is extinquished it creates carbon dioxide which goes on to create something else.

There you go.. my thoughts on the subject.

First ever post too. Just joined.

Galvasean

duvlinia wrote: »

Dads death convinced me that there is an afterlife. What that afterlife is is pure speculation. But its there. I have witnessed it.

If I may ask, what exactly was it that you witnessed? Did something happen that hinted at an afterlife?

iUseVi

duvlinia wrote: »

There you go.. my thoughts on the subject.

First ever post too. Just joined.

Welcome.

duvlinia

Galvasean wrote: »

If I may ask, what exactly was it that you witnessed? Did something happen that hinted at an afterlife?

To be honest. It doesnt feel right embelishing here. But I witnessed around 20 different things. We all did.

The care nurse told us it was very common also.

I would liek to keep that part private out of respect.

Turtwig

Imagine I've just given you a tenner to buy a big pouch of scrumptious Malteasers but you decide to refuse those Malteasers because you hope that in 70 years time you'll have all the Malteasers in the world that were promised to by this ancient bearded guy as long as you follow his rules without question. To put in another way you would rather sacrifice something you already have for the hope (greed more like) of having something more when you die. You have a life now; live it, because it's the only thing you're ever guaranteed to actually have.

Dades

Welcome duvlinia, and sorry about your Dad.

You sound more like an optimistic Deist, than anything.

Mark Hamill

duvlinia wrote: »

To be honest. It doesnt feel right embelishing here. But I witnessed around 20 different things. We all did.

The care nurse told us it was very common also.

I would liek to keep that part private out of respect.

Then why mention it all? Without even explaining what you saw, why should any atheist pay any heed to what you claim?

Handsome Bob

Dean820 wrote: »

I'm sure there's other things but I can't think of them now. But is there anyone else here who's annoyed they don't have faith anymore?

Kind of, faith once gave me a lot of comfort. When bad things would happen or people would do bad things to me, I used to just tell myself "God will reward me one day." I know someone might say isn't it good though to know you control your own destiny and have free will. Not really, because socio-economic factors limit the scope to which someone can live to their full potential. I used to think that all I needed to do was be a good person and that God would eventually give me the things I wanted. Once I stopped believing however, I saw my realistic life chances in the cold light of day for the first time.

Also, there's the death aspect, all of a sudden you go from thinking you'll be with your loved ones for eternity to realising you have so few years left with them.

So yeah, basically, life has just been that little bit more ****tier ever since I lost my faith. I know that's not the deal for everyone, but we're all different people with different circumstances in life.

liamw

duvlinia wrote: »

The care nurse told us it was very common also.

Sorry about your loss but that pretty much says it all. At the best of times, the human brain is prone to delusional thoughts and experiences, so it doesn't surpise me that in a time of such emotional stress that can be multiplied.

Zillah

duvlinia wrote: »

But its there. I have witnessed it.

Here we have it ladies and gentlemen. The one, single greatest reason that religion exists and is so powerful. Someone lost their father, whom they loved very much, and they do not want to believe that person no longer exists.

I am genuinely sorry for your loss Duvlinia, but it far more reasonable to conclude that a grief stricken mind reached out for hope and took whatever was offered, rather than you some how experiencing a fantastical existence beyond this, the only one we've ever known.

It is truly regrettable that such an understandable and seemingly harmless chain of thought has created the divisive and inhuman behemoths that are modern religions. If it went no further than this, a harmless comfort, then I would be a far more silent atheist.