96% of Convictions get no Penalty Points Applied

Stingray

Unbelievable as per todays Indo, go to Court and even if convicted you've a 96% chance of no points being applied, something wrong here. A great line from the Courts Service

"There is no issue with enforcing the law," one source said. "The gardai are stopping people, the summonses are being sent out and people are being convicted. The problem is they're not getting the points.

?????

Reckless drivers let off the hook on points
Legal loophole allows 17,656 to escape sanction

By Paul Melia


Monday February 08 2010

THOUSANDS of the country's most reckless drivers are escaping penalty points because of a legal loophole.

Motorists convicted in court of some of the most serious road traffic offences are not having points applied to their licences, the Irish Independent has learned.

This is because court clerks are not recording the guilty drivers' licence numbers and sending them to the Road Safety Authority (RSA), which is the body charged with applying the points.

The reason why the clerks are not recording the numbers is because there is no legal requirement for them to do so. However, a small number do pass on the information to the RSA.

Figures obtained from the RSA show that, since 2003, 18,383 drivers have been convicted of any one of 10 offences that involve a mandatory court appearance. But the Irish Independent has learned that just 727 of these had the points applied, meaning 17,656 escaped punishment.

If applied, the points would have a major bearing on the insurance premiums of the drivers in question.

The problem covers 10 of the most serious driving offences, including driving without insurance, careless driving, not having a valid NCT and driving a dangerously defective vehicle.

Drivers found guilty of any one of the 10 offences should have three or five points applied to their licence, depending on the severity of the offence.

The figures show:

• 13,220 drivers were convicted of driving with no insurance. In 12,691 cases, no driver number was recorded and no penalty points were issued.

• Some 194 drivers have been convicted of not having a valid NCT since the law was introduced last May. Just 16 received penalty points.

• There have been 3,953 convictions for dangerous driving. In 3,805 cases, no driver number was recorded.

The Government has repeatedly stressed the role penalty points play in changing driver behaviour and in reducing fatalities on the roads.

Disqualified

Since the scheme was first introduced, more than 660,000 drivers have been issued with penalty points and 164 have been disqualified after receiving 12 points over a three-year period.

However, the lack of enforcement of points for the most serious offences will come as a major embarrassment to Transport Minister Noel Dempsey.

Mr Dempsey has now moved to close the loophole by introducing a new section in the Road Traffic Bill 2009 which will make it the responsibility of court clerks to pass on the driving licence information to the RSA.

The reason so few points have been issued is because court clerks often fail to record the guilty driver's licence number -- which means the points cannot be applied.

The problem arose because the Government relied on existing legislation which required motorists to produce their licence in court if charged with breaking road traffic laws. But there was no legal requirement for the details, including the driver number, to be recorded.

As a result, some court clerks were not bothering to do so.

"There is no issue with enforcing the law," one source said. "The gardai are stopping people, the summonses are being sent out and people are being convicted. The problem is they're not getting the points.

"It all relates to going to court and being found guilty and penalty points being applied. The Courts Service take your driver number and details and all that detail is sent to the RSA which inputs it into the national driver file.

"The Courts Service won't handle the information. Once the conviction happens, there's no legal requirement to hand the licence up and the Courts Service is not required to do it," the source added.

But the Courts Service said it was doing what it was required to do. A spokesman said that when someone was convicted of an offence the information was passed on to the RSA, but admitted that when no driving licence was produced it could not provide a driver number.

"We can, and do, put the information in and send it forward (to the RSA)," the spokesman said. "Where an issue may arise is if someone doesn't produce their licence.

"This means we are not in a position to pass on the information about the points. If they can't produce the licence, we can't provide the information to the RSA. Where it isn't happening, we don't have any role in following that up."

- Paul Melia

Irish Independent

MagicMarker

Heard this on Newstalk this morning, couldn't believe it!!

How much more incompetent can you actually get? It's beyond a joke!

Dublin1600

Welcome to backward Ireland :eek:

Wishbone Ash

If applied, the points would have a major bearing on the insurance premiums of the drivers in question.

But.......

• 13,220 drivers were convicted of driving with no insurance.

biko

Hmmm, this changes everything...

Carstuck

Remember the slogan they had 'Get the point, not the points'. :rolleyes: Typical!:D

rebel.ranter

Carstuck wrote: »

Remember the slogan they had 'Get the point, not the points'. :rolleyes: Typical!:D

I like it!

Deedsie

Will they be contacting the said offenders and getting there licence numbers? Were the fines paid i wonder?

Sickening stuff. Everyones else pays high insurance premiums because of these people. Road tax for shockingly bad roads. And the NCT. I hope they are going to follow up and apply these points retrospectively

Rovi

On Pat Penny (RTE Radio 1) right now!

MagicMarker

Rovi wrote: »

On Pat Penny (RTE Radio 1) right now!

Is Frontline on tonight? I'd say that would be worth tuning into

MunsterCycling

NO run the plank is on the loose again, I though they'd canned that fool.

peasant

So in 17.000 odd cases a court clerk "couldn't be bothered" to do their job or even just ask a few questions as to why recording the number wasn't a legal requirement?

Sack them all, I'd say

Stark

Remind me again what's being done differently during this current public service "work to rule"?

Cookie_Monster

Stark wrote: »

Remind me again what's being done differently during this current public service "work to rule"?

more tea

Seth Brundle

peasant wrote: »

So in 17.000 odd cases a court clerk "couldn't be bothered" to do their job or even just ask a few questions as to why recording the number wasn't a legal requirement?

Sack them all, I'd say

I don't know the specific causes but its possible that the clerks weren't given the IT resources to update the points system and also maybe they were vocal about it but nobody else did anything.

peasant

kbannon wrote: »

maybe they were vocal about it but nobody else did anything.

even more people to sack then

Henry Ford III

That's nuts.

The court cases referred to include some of the very worst drivers, and they get no penalty points.

An ordinary motorist going a few kph over the limit however gets hit.

JimsAlterEgo

from what head of the RSA is saying they have always been aware of this, if thats the case his head should roll.
Surely if they have the names and addresses they can still get most of them.

CJhaughey

Just like everything else, no accountability.
No-one will face any sanction or punishment apart from the poor fools that actually brought their license into court and gave the number to the clerk.
Just like everything else here only the honest will suffer.

_Kaiser_

Saw this in the Indo earlier and had a rueful laugh at good ole arseways Ireland. It actually backs up what I said in another thread here only the other day.

The reason why the clerks are not recording the numbers is because there is no legal requirement for them to do so. However, a small number do pass on the information to the RSA.

So as I said in that other thread, it's basically "If I don't HAVE to do something, I won't!" eh? :rolleyes: No wonder things are the way they are.
Our government's/public sector's inability to do "joined up" thinking is scandalous.

Here's another example I heard the other day.. the Department of Social Welfare send out notifications to those on Jobseekers Benefit to tell them when they've to sign on (anytime during a specified week) - BUT when you turn up, you're told to come back on the day that individual office processes these, and there's no way to send out the correct days in these notifications as it's automated and centralised. :rolleyes:

But it gets better.. even though many people have to sign for their dole weekly in the local Post Office, this is all because it would take up to 4 MONTHS to get confirmation of this from An Post to the local Welfare Office.

Is it any wonder this country is the corrupt, underdeveloped and mismanaged haven for the incompetent, the lazy and the greedy that it is? Here we give them cushy government jobs and let them work away. :mad:

unkel

Shocking. Unbelievable. I hope this makes the international news so it wil bring a lot of embarrassment and shame. The minister for justice should resign over this...

_Kaiser_

unkel wrote: »

The minister for justice should resign over this...

He should, but he won't - no more than any of the rest of his colleagues (on either side of the Dail) would (or have) for similar scandals.
Compare this to say the expenses scandal in the UK a few months back and you see just how bad we are.

It's bad enough that enforcement is largely non-existant (unless it's a revenue generating speed trap that is), but to then have people who ARE caught get away with it because someone can't be arsed taking down their license number is farcical!

Only in Ireland (or perhaps some 3rd world backwater) eh? :rolleyes:

CJhaughey

unkel wrote: »

Shocking. Unbelievable. I hope this makes the international news so it wil bring a lot of embarrassment and shame. The minister for justice should resign over this...

:D:D:D That will be the day.

Cookie_Monster

And it gets worse...

THE Government has known for up to two years about the legal loophole that allows reckless drivers to escape penalty points -- yet it still cannot provide a date for when it will be closed.

Court clerks are not recording the licence numbers of guilty drivers who fail to produce their licences. The result is that the Road Safety Authority (RSA) cannot apply the points.

The Department of Transport said the loophole had been spotted during the "very extensive discussions" that preceded the drafting of the new Road Traffic Bill.

These discussions with the RSA, the gardai and others were under way as far back as June 2008. Yet the bill was only published last October, with the inclusion of the measure to lower the drink-driving limit being blamed for the delay.

The Labour Party's transport spokesman, Tommy Broughan, said the failure to introduce the bill was indicative of incompetence at the highest level in the department.

He added: "Yet again, Transport Minister Noel Dempsey has lot the plot, rendering our road-safety laws virtually useless in many instances."

Yesterday, however, Taoiseach Brian Cowen said he expected that the current legal loophole would be closed off by the forthcoming road traffic bill.

Last night, a Government spokesman was unable to provide a specific date when the bill would be pushed through the Dail in order to close the loophole but said it was expected that this would be before the summer.

This means that in the meantime, reckless drivers will continue to avoid penalty points if they fail to bring their licences to court.

Yesterday, the Irish Independent revealed that since 2003 18,383 drivers had been convicted of any one of 10 offences that involve a mandatory court appearance. But just 727 of these had actually had the points applied. The remaining 17,656 escaped punishment.

Undermining

A spokeswoman for the department said there was already an obligation on drivers to bring their licences to court and that the new bill would also oblige them to bring photocopies..

The Courts Service yesterday pledged to co-operate with the forthcoming legislation. However, it said that as things stood it did not have a policing role and it was therefore up to the gardai to pursue drivers who failed to produce their licences.

Meanwhile, the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport Ireland described yesterday's revelation in this newspaper as "entirely undermining the logic of the penalty points system and jeopardising lives and safety on Irish roads".

Its president, Paul Mallee, said the anomaly was the worst type of example of the absence of joined-up thinking between various arms of the State.

He added: "Almost nine years after the introduction of penalty points, it is entirely self-defeating that so many drivers are getting away scot-free for offences that, ultimately, put lives at risk on our roads."

MagicMarker

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

And it gets worse...

Since 2003!!! :eek:

I knew the numbers but I thought that was only for the last year or two!!

So basically since 2003 only 2 people per week have been punished for driving offences that warranted a court appearance. Ridiculous, how much have those court appearances cost the state?

Saab Ed

MagicMarker wrote: »

So basically since 2003 only 2 people per week have been punished for driving offences that warranted a court appearance. Ridiculous, how much have those court appearances cost the state?

In essence , if you're caught speeding (i.e 35kmh on Burgh Quay at 3:52am of a Sunday morning) then just go to court, forget your license and get off scott free..... It never changes this country, we must be such a panic at European level

BESman

Whats the story with traffic corps cars parked on side roads facing the main road, surely they have speed cameras? If your going 65mph on a 60mph road will they bother fining you etc?

galwaytt

peasant wrote: »

So in 17.000 odd cases a court clerk "couldn't be bothered" to do their job or even just ask a few questions as to why recording the number wasn't a legal requirement?

Sack them all, I'd say

...indeed, but you're missing something: you're assuming the CoC have the licence info, from the Defendant, to pass on in the first place.

The cute hoors amongst the 'audience' know that if you don't bring/'forget to bring' your licence to court, that CoC's can't compel you to give it to them if you bring it, or produce it if you 'forget'....;) ...in which case........they have no info to forward, or a way of getting it.

So now you know: if you're due in court shortly, remember to bring your licence so you can collect your points, otherwise ...........

And, cute hoors would also have known that, faced with small(er) fine and less(er) points for a given offence at the roadside....you could get away with a bigger fine and (effectively) no points.......by going to court. Handy to know for those on big points, as-is...........

Wow.

Mind you - why can't they just link to your PPSN no ?

Seth Brundle

galwaytt wrote: »

So now you know: if you're due in court shortly, remember to bring your licence so you can collect your points, otherwise ...........

Say it as it is - don't bring your licence to court. It is not a legal requirement to bring it (unless you drive to court).

Stark

Saab Ed wrote: »

In essence , if you're caught speeding (i.e 35kmh on Burgh Quay at 3:52am of a Sunday morning) then just go to court, forget your license and get off scott free..... It never changes this country, we must be such a panic at European level

I assume you still get a hefty fine though?

Seth Brundle

Isn't the fine the same as if you had initially accepted the offence when you received the letter from the gardai?

Stark

It's €120 (vs €80) if you don't pay within 28 days and it can be up to €800 if it goes to court.

Cookie_Monster

kbannon wrote: »

Say it as it is - don't bring your licence to court. It is not a legal requirement to bring it (unless you drive to court).

so how come you don't have to produce licence or anything when flashed by a gatso. Can the courts system not simply link up with the Shannon / Gardai database and use name and address to pick up licence number? Or is that too much effort for them as well?

unkel

galwaytt wrote: »

if you don't bring/'forget to bring' your licence to court, that CoC's can't compel you to give it to them if you bring it, or produce it if you 'forget'....;) ...in which case........they have no info to forward, or a way of getting it.

But they do have your driving license number! If you speed and get done by gun / gatso, 2 penalty points will automatically applied to your license. Nobody even has to stop you and you don't have to show anybody your license and nobody has to fill in any form.

galwaytt

unkel wrote: »

But they do have your driving license number! If you speed and get done by gun / gatso, 2 penalty points will automatically applied to your license. Nobody even has to stop you and you don't have to show anybody your license and nobody has to fill in any form.

...sorry, they don't automatically have your licence number: they only have the veh reg, and when you fill in the penalty notice, to pay the fine, you have to put the licence number on the form..........furthermore, a lot of the licence numbers are supplied are incorrect: there are two numbers on your licence, one is a serial no, the other a licence no (your 'file').........give them the 'wrong' one and they can't do anything.....

I presume a lot of this is for historic reasons: if your licence is at a different address to your veh reg, for example, there's no way to link the two - they can't assume it's the same person - hence my PPSN suggestion.....

Are there any 'old' licences, that have no number, still out there ?

Voodoomelon

I can't get over this, unbelievable. How is this not the number one story on the news?

daveharnett

unkel wrote: »

Shocking. Unbelievable. I hope this makes the international news so it wil bring a lot of embarrassment and shame. The minister for justice should resign over this...

Agree completely.

The resignation will come if a researcher can find somebody who was killed by a driver who should have been disqualified at the time.

markpb

daveharnett wrote: »

The resignation will come if a researcher can find somebody who was killed by a driver who should have been disqualified at the time.

When was the last time a sitting minister quit in Ireland?

unkel

galwaytt wrote: »

they only have the veh reg, and when you fill in the penalty notice, to pay the fine, you have to put the licence number on the form..........

Ah wasn't aware of that. It's a miracle, but I've never had any points

The license number should be linked though to your insurance / registration / tax. Don't know why it isn't.

BillyBoyBad

I got a letter in the post but at the time (lost my job) I genuinely couldn't pay the fine. So up in court soon-will the judge be likely to increase the fine by much? Was €80 for speeding first day.

galwaytt

unkel wrote: »

... It's a miracle, but I've never had any points

me neither, but I know a Wife who has........:D

wimmin' drivers !!

bladebrew

this must have happened me so,after being charged with careless driving (clipping a lady with the wing mirror) i did everything by the book,i even told my insurer i had 5 penalty points,and as i found out about 3 months ago the points were never put on my licence:eek:

i dont remember having my licence in court,and i dont recall being asked to bring it either,im going to have a hard time trying to persuade quinn insurance that i dont have any penalty points after all,

Seth Brundle

unkel wrote: »

Ah wasn't aware of that. It's a miracle, but I've never had any points

Same here but its not for lack of trying!

ToadVine

[quote=[Deleted User];64740358]So hypotheticaly, if I got done for speeding and have the option of filling in the form with my licence number and paying the fine at the post office, for a slightly higher fine in court I dont get points????[/QUOTE]

I'd like to know the answer to this too.

Testament1

Just while we're on the topic of penalty points, is there any where to check how many penalty points you have and date of issue of points etc..?

-Corkie-

Testament1 wrote: »

Just while we're on the topic of penalty points, is there any where to check how many penalty points you have and date of issue of points etc..?

Yes the rsa office in ballina.