Baptismal Certs: Manditory or No?

McChubbin

I'm told that in order to be accepted into most schools in this country, a child must have a baptismal cert or
some other form to state that they've undergone a christening ceromony.

According to several members of my predominantly Catholic family, if you don't have a baptismal cert,
you might as well not exist as you can't get a PPS number, a driver's license-all sorts of nonsense.

Having said that, I post here in a bid to find a more reasonable answer.

I don't have any children of my own but I've long since made the decision to raise any potential offspring I might have
as athiest and I worry that this "no bapstimal cert, no life" nonsense might have a ring of truth to it.

At the moment, I generally dismiss such notions as "propaganda" but is there any truth to it?
Would I potentially be shooting myself in the foot by not having my future offspring undergoe a christening, communion or conformation?

It's something I've often thought about but I've never been given a straight answer.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

McChubbin

donegalfella wrote: »

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Is it a manditory requirement, though? I ask only because about 90% of all schools in this country are Catholic and/or religious. If there is some wiggle room, I'd like to know for future reference.

I appologize if I appear somewhat naive on this subject but giving my family background, there are few people close to me who I have a proper conversation with on this matter.

emanresu

The school enrollment requirement is a photocopy of the Birth Certificate.
The application form also asks for the PPS number.
A Baptismal Certificate is not required, even by Catholic schools.

The state (Dept of Social and Family Affairs) issues the PPS number,
and does not ask for a Baptismal Certificate.

Dades

It isn't true to say that you will not get your kid into a catholic school without a birth cert, but it's certainly true that your kid stands more of a chance if they have one.

The Education Act gives school boards the right to discriminate in favour of maintaining the "ethos" of their school.

robindch

McChubbin wrote: »

I'm told that in order to be accepted into most schools in this country, a child must have a baptismal cert or some other form to state that they've undergone a christening ceromony.

As donegalfella says, you'll find a baptismal certificate helpful when you're trying to get your kid into one of the schools controlled by the Vatican, and in this country around 92% of them are. Luckily, there are a few schools -- mostly around Dublin -- that admit kids based upon the order in which they applied (the "Educate Together" schools), but the waiting list for all of them is quite long, so get your (future) kids name down early if you want a chance to get them in. If you apply to get into a school controlled by the Vatican, then the school board is legally permitted to allow the kids of more conformist people than you to skip past your position in the queue.

Outside of that, your birth certificate is the most important document you need and that's something that the government will give you, not the church. In general, anything the church provides you with has the same legal authority as a membership card for your local video shop.

That said, if you bring your kid to hospital, you will be asked "what religion" he or she is. I don't understand what relevance this has to medical treatment and would be interested to hear any theories.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

emanresu

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I actually posted my last post before I saw this one (I can't believe it took me that long to type it).
Maybe this is true in some places, but I know of three schools which did not ask for Baptismal Certificates. This was about five years ago. One was a CBS, one was run by Sisters of Mercy and the other was a national school under the patronage of the diocese. All of these schools have non-catholic students.

Dades

emanresu wrote: »

Maybe this is true in some places, but I know of three schools which did not ask for Baptismal Certificates.

Did the application forms ask for a "religion"?

emanresu

Dades wrote: »

Did the application forms ask for a "religion"?

The CBS did ask for religion, but the national school didn't.
I don't have form for the Sisters of Mercy school anymore.
But none of them asked for a Baptismal Certificate.

LostinKildare

I can answer this -- I have a child who is not baptised.

Baptismal cert has nothing to do with getting a PPS number (or passport, driver's licence, etc.). You only need the birth cert.

If you go to enroll your child in a Catholic or Protestant school, they will ask for a copy of the baptismal cert. If you don't have it, then it is up to the individual school whether to accept your child or not -- they can legally discriminate against your child on the basis of religion. From my observation, this usually comes into play in areas with overcrowded schools (i.e., when there are limited places, the school will take the baptised child over the unbaptised child).

Dades

emanresu wrote: »

The CBS did ask for religion, but the national school didn't.
I don't have form for the Sisters of Mercy school anymore.
But none of them asked for a Baptismal Certificate.

Interesting. Do these schools not do interviews with parents/kids before making decisions, though?

I find it difficult to believe (though I'd like to) that a RC school won't ask your religion at any point before making a decision on your kids eligibility.

LostinKildare

emanresu wrote: »

The CBS did ask for religion, but the national school didn't.
I don't have form for the Sisters of Mercy school anymore.
But none of them asked for a Baptismal Certificate.

Are those primary or secondary schools? I think most primary schools ask for the cert, but I guess it can vary from school to school (just as the enforcement varies). And I wouldn't be surprised if schools in Dublin and other cities weren't a bit more lenient than elsewhere.

McChubbin

Thank you all so much for the informed and insightful replies.
I was worried that sometime down the road a lack of religion in my child's life would prove to be more of a curse than a blessing.

However, I think it's ridiculous that the school board are legally allowed to discriminate on the grounds of religion.

In regards to the long lists for secular schools, if gven the choice between enrolling my children in the Catholic school across the road or the secular school 45 minutes away, I'd choose the latter.

emanresu

LostinKildare wrote: »

Are those primary or secondary schools?

Primary, in Ennis.

spurious

McChubbin wrote: »

However, I think it's ridiculous that the school board are legally allowed to discriminate on the grounds of religion.

Absolutely, while funded from the State. Self-funding and private, I don't care who they let in or don't. There is a many-pronged campaign currently to get rid of that ludicrous section of the 'Equality' legislation.

Ickle Magoo

McChubbin wrote: »

Thank you all so much for the informed and insightful replies.
I was worried that sometime down the road a lack of religion in my child's life would prove to be more of a curse than a blessing.

However, I think it's ridiculous that the school board are legally allowed to discriminate on the grounds of religion.

In regards to the long lists for secular schools, if gven the choice between enrolling my children in the Catholic school across the road or the secular school 45 minutes away, I'd choose the latter.

It is absolutely ridiculous and unfortunately you may not have an option. We went around the local schools and were told not to bother applying for some of the local ones as they would have to find alternative arrangements for non-catholics during religious classes and as they had plenty of catholics from all over town to choose from, they wouldn't deliberately make life harder for themselves by choosing an atheists child - even though we live near by. :mad:

I put the kids names down at the local ET school when they were born - my son was 15th on the list or something, so get names down as soon as you can. :eek:

McChubbin

There really should be more resources for athiest/agnostics when it comes to education. Why should my children be forced to endure lectures on how they'll go to hell if they don't blow their noses?

Utterly ridiculous.

robindch

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Does this have something to do with administering last rites, in case of emergency?[/QUOTE]No idea. I wouldn't have thought so anyway since it was the fourth question, after sex, name and date of birth. Seemed to give the infernal infection a pride of place it did not deserve.

BTW, I mentioned this a few months back, but this happened late last year in Temple Street hospital -- my protestations that my kid was three and therefore had neither been exposed to religion, nor developed the need for one were met with a blank stare, followed by mrs robindch's slightly more helpful suggestion that the registrar put down "none".

rccaulfield

Bump- going thru this dilemma myself. Where do all the muslims etc go in this country for schooling then?

Ghost Buster

McChubbin wrote: »

I'm told that in order to be accepted into most schools in this country, a child must have a baptismal cert or
some other form to state that they've undergone a christening ceromony.

According to several members of my predominantly Catholic family, if you don't have a baptismal cert,
you might as well not exist as you can't get a PPS number, a driver's license-all sorts of nonsense.

Having said that, I post here in a bid to find a more reasonable answer.

I don't have any children of my own but I've long since made the decision to raise any potential offspring I might have
as athiest and I worry that this "no bapstimal cert, no life" nonsense might have a ring of truth to it.

At the moment, I generally dismiss such notions as "propaganda" but is there any truth to it?
Would I potentially be shooting myself in the foot by not having my future offspring undergoe a christening, communion or conformation?

It's something I've often thought about but I've never been given a straight answer.

Just filled out the enrolement form for my kid yesterday. Its for a rural catholic school and there was no " What religion is your child" question and a birth cert or baptismal cert will do. Relieved but feeling slightly cheated of the opportunity to rant a bit!!:)

James74

Dades wrote: »

Interesting. Do these schools not do interviews with parents/kids before making decisions, though?

I find it difficult to believe (though I'd like to) that a RC school won't ask your religion at any point before making a decision on your kids eligibility.

My daughter started primary school this year in a rural Donegal catholic school. No questions on religion were asked and no baptismal certificate was asked for.

Early in the school year I nervously mentioned to her teacher that we were raising our daughter with no religion. The teacher seemed genuinely surprised that I even though that they would be doing anything even mildly religious yet, and I was told "that sort of stuff" is for later on. I was really pleased with her attitude.

Now that's just one teacher in one school, and it's probably not the norm, but this is a rural, largely catholic area in north Donegal, so if it can happen here maybe the times really are a'changing. Here's hoping.

PDN

McChubbin wrote: »

There really should be more resources for athiest/agnostics when it comes to education. Why should my children be forced to endure lectures on how they'll go to hell if they don't blow their noses?

Utterly ridiculous.

Irrespective of whether your child has a baptismal certificate or not, they have an absolute constitutional right not to be forced to endure any lectures on religious subjects unless you as the parent give the say so.

BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN
Article 42:1 1. The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

Article 44:4 Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.

Don't be afraid to insist on your child's consitutional rights (which trump every other policy or law in this country) being respected. As a non-Catholic Christian minister I have, on occasion, accompanied parents to see school principals and reminded them of what the Constitution states (they tend to get very snippy when you do this). On one occasion a principal ignored me and still tried to force children to attend a Catholic mass - he only stopped when the reporters from a national radio station were ringing him up and asking him to go on air about it. You, as a taxpayer, are funding these schools - so be prepared to insist that they don't drive a coach and horses through the Constitution.

axer

BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN
Article 42:1 1. The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

Article 44:4 Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.

Does that not mean that a school cannot discriminate according to religion since religion is not the ethos of a school but just the framework for which the school operates culturally, morally etc i.e. Thus is it not possible for me to follow a catholic ethos without believing in a god? I hope ye get my meaning

rainbowtrout

James74 wrote: »

My daughter started primary school this year in a rural Donegal catholic school. No questions on religion were asked and no baptismal certificate was asked for.

Early in the school year I nervously mentioned to her teacher that we were raising our daughter with no religion. The teacher seemed genuinely surprised that I even though that they would be doing anything even mildly religious yet, and I was told "that sort of stuff" is for later on. I was really pleased with her attitude.

Now that's just one teacher in one school, and it's probably not the norm, but this is a rural, largely catholic area in north Donegal, so if it can happen here maybe the times really are a'changing. Here's hoping.

I think a lot of rural schools are like that. None of the schools around here distinguish between Catholics and non Catholics. They can't afford to in many rural areas, the population is so small they need to take in every child they can get.

Glenster

rccaulfield wrote: »

Bump- going thru this dilemma myself. Where do all the muslims etc go in this country for schooling then?

Catholic Schools.

About 80% of everything written above this is hysteria.

When I was at school there was a waiting list, plenty of 'good' baptised boys trying to get in, but we got our fair share of muslim lads entering after the Junior Cert (and this was ten years ago).


I was never asked for my baptismal cert when I was applying, I had to request a copy from the parish when I was making my Confirmation.

Obviously this isn't evidence, just one example, but I would question how everyone here knows that if you aren't catholic that is the reason you dont get into schools. Maybe your kids are just stupid. or unathletic. or skobes.


Dont get me wrong, in principle it would be bad, but I dont see it happening in reality.

Ickle Magoo

Glenster wrote: »

but I would question how everyone here knows that if you aren't catholic that is the reason you dont get into schools.

Eh...

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

We went around the local schools and were told not to bother applying for some of the local ones as they would have to find alternative arrangements for non-catholics during religious classes and as they had plenty of catholics from all over town to choose from, they wouldn't deliberately make life harder for themselves by choosing an atheists child - even though we live near by. :mad:

Glenster wrote: »

Maybe your kids are just stupid. or unathletic. or skobes.

Well, at least no-one could ever accuse you of being any of those things...oh wait...

robindch

Glenster wrote: »

Maybe your kids are just stupid. or unathletic. or skobes.

You have been carded for insulting the kids of another posters.

Please apologise. Publicly.

thanks.

Glenster

Glenster wrote: »

I would question how everyone here knows that if you aren't catholic that is the reason you dont get into schools. Maybe your kids are just stupid. or unathletic. or skobes.

Certainly I didn't mean to imply that anyone's kids are anything other than little delights. And if you got that impression I apologise.

However, I used the conditional case to refer to theoretical kids so clearly it wasn't directed at anyone personally. The You was also plural and general (ie. Youse guys), though that is, of course, unprovable. I assumed that everyone would realise that I wasn't attacking anyone's kids.

Why would everyone assume I was speaking specifically to Ickle Magoo? I was addressing PDN marching families down to schools and insisting that they accept children as some sort of given enshrined in the constitution. And McChubbin assuming that you would be rejected from a school based primarily on your religion. Perhaps in one horse towns that's the case, but not in any sort of urban area.

I would object to the fact that I was asked publicly to apologise, I have no problem apologising to someone personally, but I certainly have no intention of providing obesiance porn to internet voyeurs.

Tigger

Glenster wrote: »

Certainly I didn't mean to imply that anyone's kids are anything other than little delights. And if you got that impression I apologise.

However, I used the conditional case to refer to theoretical kids so clearly it wasn't directed at anyone personally. The You was also plural and general (ie. Youse guys), though that is, of course, unprovable. I assumed that everyone would realise that I wasn't attacking anyone's kids.

Why would everyone assume I was speaking specifically to Ickle Magoo? I was addressing PDN marching families down to schools and insisting that they accept children as some sort of given enshrined in the constitution. And McChubbin assuming that you would be rejected from a school based primarily on your religion. Perhaps in one horse towns that's the case, but not in any sort of urban area.

I would object to the fact that I was asked publicly to apologise, I have no problem apologising to someone personally, but I certainly have no intention of providing obesiance porn to internet voyeurs.

my theoritical kids aren't stupid and if they were either stupid or unathletic they still couldn't be discriminated against

although its ok fore irish schools (not just catholic btw) to discriminate on religious ground

anyhow i want an apology for you saying my theoritical kids are scobies

Ickle Magoo

It doesn't matter who your post was aimed at, inferring anyone's kids are refused a place at a state funded faith school - something many people here deal with - as being in some way connected to some failing on their child's part rather than the system is insulting and ignorant in the extreme.

I don't think it's a coincidence that those who have no issue with the current system, ironically usually aren't even old enough to have any kind of parental involvement with the system, seem to be the only ones defending the current education system.

Glenster

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

It doesn't matter who your post was aimed at, inferring anyone's kids are refused a place at a state funded faith school - something many people here deal with - as being in some way connected to some failing on their child's part rather than the system is insulting and ignorant in the extreme.

I don't think it's a coincidence that those who have no issue with the current system, ironically usually aren't even old enough to have any kind of parental involvement with the system, seem to be the only ones defending the current education system.

The best schools only want the best students, high quality schools will only remain high quality by generating an air of exclusivity, by vetting the applicants, this is the world that we live in. Universities are funded by the state too, should everyone automatically get into Medicine or History and Politics?

If you interviewed at a school and didn't get in it's because the school thought someone else was a better fit. I am not implying that, I am saying that. We accept this when interviewing for jobs, why not when interviewing for schools?

I certainly wouldn't suggest that anyone's child is less than perfect but when there are so many applicants and fewer places of course schools will judge who to take. All I am suggesting is that it seems ridiculous to me, and it is not my experience, that whether the person is a christian or an atheist or anything in between has any sort of a practical impact on selection.

And I have first hand (well second hand) experience of interviewing for schools this month, and they didn't ask for her baptismal cert until after they offered her the place. At the interview they asked her questions about sport, music, friends, subjects she liked, normal things.



We interviewed for a place and we didn't get in, the system is to blame.

Glenster

Also if your kids were down for the local ET school when they were born why did you ask about other schools?

Who did you ask that said "dont bother even trying"?

Ridiculous thing to say, I can only assume you ignored that incredibly ridiculous advice and tried anyway.

robindch

Glenster wrote: »

I assumed that everyone would realise that I wasn't attacking anyone's kids.

Because you said:

Glenster wrote: »

rccaulfield wrote: »

Bump- going thru this dilemma myself. Where do all the muslims etc go in this country for schooling then?

Maybe your kids are just stupid. or unathletic. or skobes.

You responded to rccaulfield's post by insulting his/her kids.

Glenster wrote: »

I would object to the fact that I was asked publicly to apologise, I have no problem apologising to someone personally, but I certainly have no intention of providing obesiance porn to internet voyeurs.

You can object as much as you like elsewhere, but in this tiny corner of the internet, A+A rules apply and if you insult somebody, or worse still, insult their kids, then at the moderator's discretion, you will be -- as you have been -- asked to apologize, publicly and personally.

Over to you.

Dades

Glenster, there is anecdotal evidence the other way, too. Maybe this is more of a rural thing, or at least another geographical thing, but it does exist.

My daughter is too young for school yet, but I've looked around the local places and any application form I've seen has a space for "Religious Denomination".

I also just found this charmingly contradictory paragraph from the All Saints National School site:

EQUALITY STATEMENT
In All Saints' we encourage equality of participation in all school activities. The children are encouraged to have respect for God, Church and State and all persons regardless of race, creed or colour.

Some are more equal than others, it seems.

Or this school offering on their front page:

Excellent Pastoral Care based on our interdenominational Christian ethos

Suspect, I say!

Paparazzo

If your non catholic kids are refused from any school, ask for it in writing with the reasons. Very often they'll find room for your kids, even though they said they were full over the phone.

Ickle Magoo

Glenster wrote: »

The best schools only want the best students, high quality schools will only remain high quality by generating an air of exclusivity, by vetting the applicants, this is the world that we live in. Universities are funded by the state too, should everyone automatically get into Medicine or History and Politics?

Are you seriously suggesting that state-funded primary educational establishments should be allowed to discriminate against 5yr olds? It may be the kind of world we live in if we are using private schools but tax payers money shouldn't be funding schools that are allowed to pick and choose pupils, whether than be because they have learning difficulties or because of their faith.

Glenster wrote: »

We interviewed for a place and we didn't get in, the system is to blame.

Just what kind of first hand experience of trying to get an non-religious child into a faith school do you have? Or are you just going to keep trundling out the vague anecdotes regarding not encountering issues that don't even apply to you?

Glenster wrote: »

Also if your kids were down for the local ET school when they were born why did you ask about other schools?.

Who did you ask that said "dont bother even trying"?

Ridiculous thing to say, I can only assume you ignored that incredibly ridiculous advice and tried anyway.

Why shouldn't I? The ET school is not our local school and is vastly over-subscribed. When I called the school, that's the information I was given. I know lots of other parents from various towns and cities in Ireland given the same spiel. If you think the issue is A) localised or unusual then you would be wrong on both counts. Why are you finding that so hard to accept?

pljudge321

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that state-funded primary educational establishments should be allowed to discriminate against 5yr olds? It may be the kind of world we live in if we are using private schools but tax payers money shouldn't be funding schools that are allowed to pick and choose pupils, whether than be because they have learning difficulties or because of their faith.



Just what kind of first hand experience of trying to get an non-religious child into a faith school do you have? Or are you just going to keep trundling out the vague anecdotes regarding not encountering issues that don't even apply to you?



Why shouldn't I? The ET school is not our local school and is vastly over-subscribed. When I called the school, that's the information I was given. I know lots of other parents from various towns and cities in Ireland given the same spiel. If you think the issue is A) localised or unusual then you would be wrong on both counts. Why are you finding that so hard to accept?

From previous experience with this poster its easier to simply click the ignore button and be done with him.

rccaulfield

Glenster wrote: »

Catholic Schools.

About 80% of everything written above this is hysteria.

When I was at school there was a waiting list, plenty of 'good' baptised boys trying to get in, but we got our fair share of muslim lads entering after the Junior Cert (and this was ten years ago).


I was never asked for my baptismal cert when I was applying, I had to request a copy from the parish when I was making my Confirmation.

Obviously this isn't evidence, just one example, but I would question how everyone here knows that if you aren't catholic that is the reason you dont get into schools. Maybe your kids are just stupid. or unathletic. or skobes.


Dont get me wrong, in principle it would be bad, but I dont see it happening in reality.

For the record i didn't find this was meant as a personal attack on my kids!!

robindch

rccaulfield wrote: »

For the record i didn't find this was meant as a personal attack on my kids!!

Fair enough.

glenster wrote:

Certainly I didn't mean to imply that anyone's kids are anything other than little delights. And if you got that impression I apologise.

Topic closed then!

Glenster

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that state-funded primary educational establishments should be allowed to discriminate against 5yr olds? It may be the kind of world we live in if we are using private schools but tax payers money shouldn't be funding schools that are allowed to pick and choose pupils, whether than be because they have learning difficulties or because of their faith.

Admittedly I dont have any experience of trying to get 5 year olds into schools, I have experience of getting 12/13 year olds into schools. It must be more emotive for you if they are only 5.

My point is that if there are limited places (as seems the case) schools will try and pick the best students, I dont really see the problem with that, and in my experience, faith doesnt seem to be an issue.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Just what kind of first hand experience of trying to get an non-religious child into a faith school do you have? Or are you just going to keep trundling out the vague anecdotes regarding not encountering issues that don't even apply to you?

I have experience trying to get a child into a faith school and the faith school not asking anything about religion until after she had been accepted. Admittedly it was a fee paying school.
What's vague about that? It's no more vague than what you were saying. I'd rather not mention names on the internet. Certainly when they apply to someone else.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Why shouldn't I? The ET school is not our local school and is vastly over-subscribed. When I called the school, that's the information I was given.

When you called the ET school?

Or when you called the local school?

I cant imagine the local school telling you outright that there is no point in applying purely because of your (non) denomination. Did you make extra demands of the school that they would have had difficulty satisfying?



I have difficulty accepting anything that doesn't make logical sense to me. Any school I've ever had anything to do with cares a lot more about behaviour, academics and extra-curriculars than about religion.

coolabula

my kids go to a catholic school and we were only asked for their PPS numbers when registering them.
we were only asked for a baptism cert before our son made his communion

Dades

Glenster wrote: »

Any school I've ever had anything to do with cares a lot more about behaviour, academics and extra-curriculars than about religion.

You've already stated that you've only had experience with secondary schools. Naturally an academic record is going to be paramount in those circumstances as one exists by virtue of the kid having already been at school for 6 years.

However primary schools obviously can't request academic records of 4/5 yr olds - they're more interested in other stuff like the parents standing in the community - or whether the child fits the school 'ethos'. I'm not suggesting every school does this - but undeniably certain schools do.

axer

Glenster wrote: »

Admittedly I dont have any experience of trying to get 5 year olds into schools, I have experience of getting 12/13 year olds into schools. It must be more emotive for you if they are only 5.

There seems to be more of an issue with primary schools - more so outside of Dublin.

Glenster wrote: »

My point is that if there are limited places (as seems the case) schools will try and pick the best students, I dont really see the problem with that, and in my experience, faith doesnt seem to be an issue.

A school that is funded by the government has no right to do this. They can discrimminate against those that are not living in the area, which is fair enough, but not againt abilities or lack thereof.

Glenster wrote: »

I have experience trying to get a child into a faith school and the faith school not asking anything about religion until after she had been accepted. Admittedly it was a fee paying school.
What's vague about that? It's no more vague than what you were saying. I'd rather not mention names on the internet. Certainly when they apply to someone else.

You cannot compare private school to public schools. I have absolutely no issue with private schools discrimminating as long as they are not receiving public funding.

Glenster wrote: »

I have difficulty accepting anything that doesn't make logical sense to me. Any school I've ever had anything to do with cares a lot more about behaviour, academics and extra-curriculars than about religion.

You need to get out and see more schools and understand that religion is a huge part of many primary schools. Their board's chairman is usually the local parish priest and the board usually contains a member of the local parish (as in a religious member) and the principal (who was hired by the local parish priest), a teacher rep (who was hired by the local parish priest) etc.

I remember when the issue first came to light a few years ago whereby some parents could not get their children into the local school the chairman of the board (the local priest) said that they give preference to Catholic children first.

Glenster

Dades wrote: »

Glenster, there is anecdotal evidence the other way, too. Maybe this is more of a rural thing, or at least another geographical thing, but it does exist.

Of course this may be true, and I accept that I know very little about public schools outside the Greater Dublin area and my memory of and experience dealing with primary schools is very low. I was just making the point that religious discrimination is not my experience at all.

Dades wrote: »

My daughter is too young for school yet, but I've looked around the local places and any application form I've seen has a space for "Religious Denomination".

Is there not even the slightest possibility that this is like the blasphemy law? Something that exists but is never be practically used.
I've been at a school where people were clamouring for places and yet there were plenty of people who had permission to skip mass on sunday morning (I boarded in sixth year).



The way everyone goes on here you'd swear doors are slammed in your face if you dont produce your baptismal cert.

Maybe that does happen, it just seems unlikely and illogical to me, is it wrong of me to ask for some clarification before I accept it as fact?

Ickle Magoo

Schools shouldn't be able to pick and choose their pupils unless they are fee paying and the parents want that kind of system, that's my point. Why should my taxes fund a school that won't accept my child?! Where is the logic in that? What about the non-faith schools that had to be hurriedly set up in Dublin for all the non-Irish nationals after an amazing co-incidence meant a large group of them had no school to go to. I can't imagine if you have never had a non-religious child or tried to apply to faith schools and had to face questions or had to ask questions how you would ever have had occasion for an issue to arise - I fail to see how that negates the issue for others, however, or makes you anywhere near an authority on the matter.

I called some of the faith schools closest to us and explained the situation & that is what I was told;

"You can certainly apply but between you & me, we're over subscribed and there won't be places made for those that don't support our ethos when we have pupils waiting who do, regardless of locality". Or words to that effect. Our local ET school is some considerable distance from us and I drive past three other schools en route.

They weren't the only school that said it and from speaking to other parents, on various parenting forums, we are certainly not the only people it has happened to. If that doesn't seem logical to you, well, I don't really care - them's the facts.

Glenster

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Schools shouldn't be able to pick and choose their pupils unless they are fee paying and the parents want that kind of system, that's my point.

Schools that are over subscribed have to pick and choose. Perhaps you think it should be done by proximity, I can see where you're coming from, it must be difficult if you live in the country.

Coming from someone who has lived near the city center and who currently lives in a commuter town I would say that most parents do not want a random collection of pupils in a school. That's one of the reasons my sister and I were/are being sent to private school, my little brother got into the nicest local school, but it has got a bit rough recently and my parents are talking about pulling him out and sending him to boarding school.


Clearly I cant talk to your experiences and I wouldn't try to.

You did mention earlier on that the school would have to make arrangements for your kids during religion class, presumably then you insisted that your kids not attend religion class (Obviously I might be assuming incorrectly). That is entirely your perogative, but it does make things more expensive and logisticaly more difficult for the local school, a school undoubtably expecting further budget cuts in the future.
Perhaps you demanding different treatment for your kids is how you dont fit in with the ethos of the local school.

Glenster

axer wrote: »

You cannot compare private school to public schools. I have absolutely no issue with private schools discrimminating as long as they are not receiving public funding.

Let's be realistic here, private schools are funded by the state the same way public schools are.

Private schools are as much state schools as public schools, just more exclusive. And more expensive.

Surely all schools are private to some degree? Isn't that what all this furore is about, the church owning schools?

axer

Glenster wrote: »

Let's be realistic here, private schools are funded by the state the same way public schools are.

Then private schools should not be allowed to discriminate for any reason.

Glenster wrote: »

Private schools are as much state schools as public schools, just more exclusive. And more expensive.

Surely all schools are private to some degree? Isn't that what all this furore is about, the church owning schools?

To some extent yes but the constitution gives children the right to an education. This is a failure of government but the point of this thread was asking are birth certs mandatory to get into a school and the answer is it depends on the school.

You failed to accept that some if not many schools choose catholics over non-catholics when accepting children into a school even though those schools are publicly funded. Instead you choose to say that the children did not get in because "Maybe your kids are just stupid. or unathletic. or skobes.". Its good to see you understand now that just because you haven't come across it doesn't mean it doesn't happen regularly.

Your thinking that it is illogical is correct which is why so many people are pi$$ed off that it is that way in this religious state.

Dades

Glenster wrote: »

Is there not even the slightest possibility that this is like the blasphemy law? Something that exists but is never be practically used.

Until you or I have experienced it, of course there's the possibility. We've got to be agnostic about it until then!

Glenster wrote: »

The way everyone goes on here you'd swear doors are slammed in your face if you dont produce your baptismal cert.

That's not really fair. The fact is the licence to discriminate does exist in black and white in the education act - and that's just not right given that every taxpayer funds the schools. If even 1% of schools utilise the provisions of the act then that's something worth talking about.

Glenster wrote: »

Maybe that does happen, it just seems unlikely and illogical to me, is it wrong of me to ask for some clarification before I accept it as fact?

Nothing wrong with seeking clarification. This thread is as much about that as anything else. I have read threads in the Parenting from people who have experienced this first hand. Again, until you or I (okay maybe not you!) experience it all evidence will be anecdotal - but that's just the situation.

Just because something can't be proven, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, right?

axer

Dades wrote: »

Just because something can't be proven, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, right?

lol :pac: