Baptismal Certs: Manditory or No?

Glenster

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

It doesn't matter who your post was aimed at, inferring anyone's kids are refused a place at a state funded faith school - something many people here deal with - as being in some way connected to some failing on their child's part rather than the system is insulting and ignorant in the extreme.

I don't think it's a coincidence that those who have no issue with the current system, ironically usually aren't even old enough to have any kind of parental involvement with the system, seem to be the only ones defending the current education system.

The best schools only want the best students, high quality schools will only remain high quality by generating an air of exclusivity, by vetting the applicants, this is the world that we live in. Universities are funded by the state too, should everyone automatically get into Medicine or History and Politics?

If you interviewed at a school and didn't get in it's because the school thought someone else was a better fit. I am not implying that, I am saying that. We accept this when interviewing for jobs, why not when interviewing for schools?

I certainly wouldn't suggest that anyone's child is less than perfect but when there are so many applicants and fewer places of course schools will judge who to take. All I am suggesting is that it seems ridiculous to me, and it is not my experience, that whether the person is a christian or an atheist or anything in between has any sort of a practical impact on selection.

And I have first hand (well second hand) experience of interviewing for schools this month, and they didn't ask for her baptismal cert until after they offered her the place. At the interview they asked her questions about sport, music, friends, subjects she liked, normal things.



We interviewed for a place and we didn't get in, the system is to blame.

Glenster

Also if your kids were down for the local ET school when they were born why did you ask about other schools?

Who did you ask that said "dont bother even trying"?

Ridiculous thing to say, I can only assume you ignored that incredibly ridiculous advice and tried anyway.

robindch

Glenster wrote: »

I assumed that everyone would realise that I wasn't attacking anyone's kids.

Because you said:

Glenster wrote: »

rccaulfield wrote: »

Bump- going thru this dilemma myself. Where do all the muslims etc go in this country for schooling then?

Maybe your kids are just stupid. or unathletic. or skobes.

You responded to rccaulfield's post by insulting his/her kids.

Glenster wrote: »

I would object to the fact that I was asked publicly to apologise, I have no problem apologising to someone personally, but I certainly have no intention of providing obesiance porn to internet voyeurs.

You can object as much as you like elsewhere, but in this tiny corner of the internet, A+A rules apply and if you insult somebody, or worse still, insult their kids, then at the moderator's discretion, you will be -- as you have been -- asked to apologize, publicly and personally.

Over to you.

Dades

Glenster, there is anecdotal evidence the other way, too. Maybe this is more of a rural thing, or at least another geographical thing, but it does exist.

My daughter is too young for school yet, but I've looked around the local places and any application form I've seen has a space for "Religious Denomination".

I also just found this charmingly contradictory paragraph from the All Saints National School site:

EQUALITY STATEMENT
In All Saints' we encourage equality of participation in all school activities. The children are encouraged to have respect for God, Church and State and all persons regardless of race, creed or colour.

Some are more equal than others, it seems.

Or this school offering on their front page:

Excellent Pastoral Care based on our interdenominational Christian ethos

Suspect, I say!

Paparazzo

If your non catholic kids are refused from any school, ask for it in writing with the reasons. Very often they'll find room for your kids, even though they said they were full over the phone.

Ickle Magoo

Glenster wrote: »

The best schools only want the best students, high quality schools will only remain high quality by generating an air of exclusivity, by vetting the applicants, this is the world that we live in. Universities are funded by the state too, should everyone automatically get into Medicine or History and Politics?

Are you seriously suggesting that state-funded primary educational establishments should be allowed to discriminate against 5yr olds? It may be the kind of world we live in if we are using private schools but tax payers money shouldn't be funding schools that are allowed to pick and choose pupils, whether than be because they have learning difficulties or because of their faith.

Glenster wrote: »

We interviewed for a place and we didn't get in, the system is to blame.

Just what kind of first hand experience of trying to get an non-religious child into a faith school do you have? Or are you just going to keep trundling out the vague anecdotes regarding not encountering issues that don't even apply to you?

Glenster wrote: »

Also if your kids were down for the local ET school when they were born why did you ask about other schools?.

Who did you ask that said "dont bother even trying"?

Ridiculous thing to say, I can only assume you ignored that incredibly ridiculous advice and tried anyway.

Why shouldn't I? The ET school is not our local school and is vastly over-subscribed. When I called the school, that's the information I was given. I know lots of other parents from various towns and cities in Ireland given the same spiel. If you think the issue is A) localised or unusual then you would be wrong on both counts. Why are you finding that so hard to accept?

pljudge321

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that state-funded primary educational establishments should be allowed to discriminate against 5yr olds? It may be the kind of world we live in if we are using private schools but tax payers money shouldn't be funding schools that are allowed to pick and choose pupils, whether than be because they have learning difficulties or because of their faith.



Just what kind of first hand experience of trying to get an non-religious child into a faith school do you have? Or are you just going to keep trundling out the vague anecdotes regarding not encountering issues that don't even apply to you?



Why shouldn't I? The ET school is not our local school and is vastly over-subscribed. When I called the school, that's the information I was given. I know lots of other parents from various towns and cities in Ireland given the same spiel. If you think the issue is A) localised or unusual then you would be wrong on both counts. Why are you finding that so hard to accept?

From previous experience with this poster its easier to simply click the ignore button and be done with him.

rccaulfield

Glenster wrote: »

Catholic Schools.

About 80% of everything written above this is hysteria.

When I was at school there was a waiting list, plenty of 'good' baptised boys trying to get in, but we got our fair share of muslim lads entering after the Junior Cert (and this was ten years ago).


I was never asked for my baptismal cert when I was applying, I had to request a copy from the parish when I was making my Confirmation.

Obviously this isn't evidence, just one example, but I would question how everyone here knows that if you aren't catholic that is the reason you dont get into schools. Maybe your kids are just stupid. or unathletic. or skobes.


Dont get me wrong, in principle it would be bad, but I dont see it happening in reality.

For the record i didn't find this was meant as a personal attack on my kids!!

robindch

rccaulfield wrote: »

For the record i didn't find this was meant as a personal attack on my kids!!

Fair enough.

glenster wrote:

Certainly I didn't mean to imply that anyone's kids are anything other than little delights. And if you got that impression I apologise.

Topic closed then!

Glenster

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that state-funded primary educational establishments should be allowed to discriminate against 5yr olds? It may be the kind of world we live in if we are using private schools but tax payers money shouldn't be funding schools that are allowed to pick and choose pupils, whether than be because they have learning difficulties or because of their faith.

Admittedly I dont have any experience of trying to get 5 year olds into schools, I have experience of getting 12/13 year olds into schools. It must be more emotive for you if they are only 5.

My point is that if there are limited places (as seems the case) schools will try and pick the best students, I dont really see the problem with that, and in my experience, faith doesnt seem to be an issue.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Just what kind of first hand experience of trying to get an non-religious child into a faith school do you have? Or are you just going to keep trundling out the vague anecdotes regarding not encountering issues that don't even apply to you?

I have experience trying to get a child into a faith school and the faith school not asking anything about religion until after she had been accepted. Admittedly it was a fee paying school.
What's vague about that? It's no more vague than what you were saying. I'd rather not mention names on the internet. Certainly when they apply to someone else.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Why shouldn't I? The ET school is not our local school and is vastly over-subscribed. When I called the school, that's the information I was given.

When you called the ET school?

Or when you called the local school?

I cant imagine the local school telling you outright that there is no point in applying purely because of your (non) denomination. Did you make extra demands of the school that they would have had difficulty satisfying?



I have difficulty accepting anything that doesn't make logical sense to me. Any school I've ever had anything to do with cares a lot more about behaviour, academics and extra-curriculars than about religion.

coolabula

my kids go to a catholic school and we were only asked for their PPS numbers when registering them.
we were only asked for a baptism cert before our son made his communion

Dades

Glenster wrote: »

Any school I've ever had anything to do with cares a lot more about behaviour, academics and extra-curriculars than about religion.

You've already stated that you've only had experience with secondary schools. Naturally an academic record is going to be paramount in those circumstances as one exists by virtue of the kid having already been at school for 6 years.

However primary schools obviously can't request academic records of 4/5 yr olds - they're more interested in other stuff like the parents standing in the community - or whether the child fits the school 'ethos'. I'm not suggesting every school does this - but undeniably certain schools do.

axer

Glenster wrote: »

Admittedly I dont have any experience of trying to get 5 year olds into schools, I have experience of getting 12/13 year olds into schools. It must be more emotive for you if they are only 5.

There seems to be more of an issue with primary schools - more so outside of Dublin.

Glenster wrote: »

My point is that if there are limited places (as seems the case) schools will try and pick the best students, I dont really see the problem with that, and in my experience, faith doesnt seem to be an issue.

A school that is funded by the government has no right to do this. They can discrimminate against those that are not living in the area, which is fair enough, but not againt abilities or lack thereof.

Glenster wrote: »

I have experience trying to get a child into a faith school and the faith school not asking anything about religion until after she had been accepted. Admittedly it was a fee paying school.
What's vague about that? It's no more vague than what you were saying. I'd rather not mention names on the internet. Certainly when they apply to someone else.

You cannot compare private school to public schools. I have absolutely no issue with private schools discrimminating as long as they are not receiving public funding.

Glenster wrote: »

I have difficulty accepting anything that doesn't make logical sense to me. Any school I've ever had anything to do with cares a lot more about behaviour, academics and extra-curriculars than about religion.

You need to get out and see more schools and understand that religion is a huge part of many primary schools. Their board's chairman is usually the local parish priest and the board usually contains a member of the local parish (as in a religious member) and the principal (who was hired by the local parish priest), a teacher rep (who was hired by the local parish priest) etc.

I remember when the issue first came to light a few years ago whereby some parents could not get their children into the local school the chairman of the board (the local priest) said that they give preference to Catholic children first.

Glenster

Dades wrote: »

Glenster, there is anecdotal evidence the other way, too. Maybe this is more of a rural thing, or at least another geographical thing, but it does exist.

Of course this may be true, and I accept that I know very little about public schools outside the Greater Dublin area and my memory of and experience dealing with primary schools is very low. I was just making the point that religious discrimination is not my experience at all.

Dades wrote: »

My daughter is too young for school yet, but I've looked around the local places and any application form I've seen has a space for "Religious Denomination".

Is there not even the slightest possibility that this is like the blasphemy law? Something that exists but is never be practically used.
I've been at a school where people were clamouring for places and yet there were plenty of people who had permission to skip mass on sunday morning (I boarded in sixth year).



The way everyone goes on here you'd swear doors are slammed in your face if you dont produce your baptismal cert.

Maybe that does happen, it just seems unlikely and illogical to me, is it wrong of me to ask for some clarification before I accept it as fact?

Ickle Magoo

Schools shouldn't be able to pick and choose their pupils unless they are fee paying and the parents want that kind of system, that's my point. Why should my taxes fund a school that won't accept my child?! Where is the logic in that? What about the non-faith schools that had to be hurriedly set up in Dublin for all the non-Irish nationals after an amazing co-incidence meant a large group of them had no school to go to. I can't imagine if you have never had a non-religious child or tried to apply to faith schools and had to face questions or had to ask questions how you would ever have had occasion for an issue to arise - I fail to see how that negates the issue for others, however, or makes you anywhere near an authority on the matter.

I called some of the faith schools closest to us and explained the situation & that is what I was told;

"You can certainly apply but between you & me, we're over subscribed and there won't be places made for those that don't support our ethos when we have pupils waiting who do, regardless of locality". Or words to that effect. Our local ET school is some considerable distance from us and I drive past three other schools en route.

They weren't the only school that said it and from speaking to other parents, on various parenting forums, we are certainly not the only people it has happened to. If that doesn't seem logical to you, well, I don't really care - them's the facts.

Glenster

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Schools shouldn't be able to pick and choose their pupils unless they are fee paying and the parents want that kind of system, that's my point.

Schools that are over subscribed have to pick and choose. Perhaps you think it should be done by proximity, I can see where you're coming from, it must be difficult if you live in the country.

Coming from someone who has lived near the city center and who currently lives in a commuter town I would say that most parents do not want a random collection of pupils in a school. That's one of the reasons my sister and I were/are being sent to private school, my little brother got into the nicest local school, but it has got a bit rough recently and my parents are talking about pulling him out and sending him to boarding school.


Clearly I cant talk to your experiences and I wouldn't try to.

You did mention earlier on that the school would have to make arrangements for your kids during religion class, presumably then you insisted that your kids not attend religion class (Obviously I might be assuming incorrectly). That is entirely your perogative, but it does make things more expensive and logisticaly more difficult for the local school, a school undoubtably expecting further budget cuts in the future.
Perhaps you demanding different treatment for your kids is how you dont fit in with the ethos of the local school.

Glenster

axer wrote: »

You cannot compare private school to public schools. I have absolutely no issue with private schools discrimminating as long as they are not receiving public funding.

Let's be realistic here, private schools are funded by the state the same way public schools are.

Private schools are as much state schools as public schools, just more exclusive. And more expensive.

Surely all schools are private to some degree? Isn't that what all this furore is about, the church owning schools?

axer

Glenster wrote: »

Let's be realistic here, private schools are funded by the state the same way public schools are.

Then private schools should not be allowed to discriminate for any reason.

Glenster wrote: »

Private schools are as much state schools as public schools, just more exclusive. And more expensive.

Surely all schools are private to some degree? Isn't that what all this furore is about, the church owning schools?

To some extent yes but the constitution gives children the right to an education. This is a failure of government but the point of this thread was asking are birth certs mandatory to get into a school and the answer is it depends on the school.

You failed to accept that some if not many schools choose catholics over non-catholics when accepting children into a school even though those schools are publicly funded. Instead you choose to say that the children did not get in because "Maybe your kids are just stupid. or unathletic. or skobes.". Its good to see you understand now that just because you haven't come across it doesn't mean it doesn't happen regularly.

Your thinking that it is illogical is correct which is why so many people are pi$$ed off that it is that way in this religious state.

Dades

Glenster wrote: »

Is there not even the slightest possibility that this is like the blasphemy law? Something that exists but is never be practically used.

Until you or I have experienced it, of course there's the possibility. We've got to be agnostic about it until then!

Glenster wrote: »

The way everyone goes on here you'd swear doors are slammed in your face if you dont produce your baptismal cert.

That's not really fair. The fact is the licence to discriminate does exist in black and white in the education act - and that's just not right given that every taxpayer funds the schools. If even 1% of schools utilise the provisions of the act then that's something worth talking about.

Glenster wrote: »

Maybe that does happen, it just seems unlikely and illogical to me, is it wrong of me to ask for some clarification before I accept it as fact?

Nothing wrong with seeking clarification. This thread is as much about that as anything else. I have read threads in the Parenting from people who have experienced this first hand. Again, until you or I (okay maybe not you!) experience it all evidence will be anecdotal - but that's just the situation.

Just because something can't be proven, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, right?

axer

Dades wrote: »

Just because something can't be proven, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, right?

lol :pac:

Glenster

axer wrote: »

You failed to accept that some if not many schools choose catholics over non-catholics when accepting children into a school even though those schools are publicly funded. Instead you choose to say that the children did not get in because "Maybe your kids are just stupid. or unathletic. or skobes.".

I just (insensitively) suggested that as a theoretical possibility, automatically assuming that your child doesn't get in because of their denomination, or primarily because of their denomination flies in the face of my experience of schools, experience which is, like everyone's here, limited.

Ickle Magoo

Glenster wrote: »

Schools that are over subscribed have to pick and choose. Perhaps you think it should be done by proximity, I can see where you're coming from, it must be difficult if you live in the country.

Coming from someone who has lived near the city center and who currently lives in a commuter town I would say that most parents do not want a random collection of pupils in a school. That's one of the reasons my sister and I were/are being sent to private school, my little brother got into the nicest local school, but it has got a bit rough recently and my parents are talking about pulling him out and sending him to boarding school.

Well, I come from a country with a fantastic state education system and they work in catchment areas, or priority is given to pupils in specific catchment areas, so having a mix of pupils faiths/abilities/whatever is what I'm used to. I don't think it's appropriate for a state funded school to pick pupils according to ability or faith. All parents pay taxes to fund these schools, why should someone who's child has learning difficulties or from a different faith or culture and so require a greater pool of the resources in the way of a classroom assistant or supervision or the like be punishable by an elitist school board - it's a terrible system, so bad it actually contravenes human rights legislation!

We don't take tax payers money and discriminate against those wanting hospital treatment or library cards based on faith, why something as important as primary education should still be using such an archaic system is just shameful.

Glenster wrote: »

Clearly I cant talk to your experiences and I wouldn't try to.

You did mention earlier on that the school would have to make arrangements for your kids during religion class, presumably then you insisted that your kids not attend religion class (Obviously I might be assuming incorrectly). That is entirely your perogative, but it does make things more expensive and logisticaly more difficult for the local school, a school undoubtably expecting further budget cuts in the future.
Perhaps you demanding different treatment for your kids is how you dont fit in with the ethos of the local school.

I don't demand anything from a particular school, I ask their protocol. Stop with the assumptions, it's getting tiresome. Tbh I'm getting fed up of explaining this to boardsies who are theists and, laughably, usually RC & so have no issue and having been brought up immersed in the system can't understand why anyone else would find it completely 1920's bonkers.

We are taking about a state funded school, an average run of the mill primary school funded by me & others like me. My child shouldn't have to go to specific religious classes applicable only to a percentage of the pupils, there should never be cause for my child to have to be segregated from their friends and miss class time. If I had to move house, where would my kids go to school? So despite our family paying a heck of a lot in taxes, I either have the choice of my kids tagging along with a faith our family doesn't hold or being segregated and playing with lego when they should be working because 90+% of schools only cater for one faith and teach things that parents should be doing in their own time?! That's crazy.

It's completely unacceptable that the state funded primary education system in Ireland is able to discriminate against children either during admissions or during class time based on parental faith, or lack of - thankfully most see that & that is why the system is changing.

Glenster

Dades wrote: »

Again, until you or I (okay maybe not you!) experience it all evidence will be anecdotal - but that's just the situation.

It'll be anecdotal even if we do experience it. It'll be one of our anecdotes.

I would again make the point that my little sister wasn't asked for her baptismal cert until after she'd been accepted, and wasn't asked about her denomination while she was applying, and I wasn't asked for my baptismal cert until they needed it for my confirmation (dunno if they asked about my denomination when I was applying).

So if the question is are baptismal certs they mandatory in all faith schools, the answer is no. I doubt they are mandatory in any school (what with muslims and that)

If the question is do schools discriminate based on religion (or lack thereof) my experience is that they don't.

If the question is can they, the answer is yes, and they can discriminate based on the look or criminal record of the parent, based on where the child lives (locationism), based on how much money the parents have, based on all sorts of things. Life.

Ickle Magoo

Frankly, you'd have to be a bit of scobe not to acknowledge the well documented issues surrounding the Irish education system...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/1217/1224260833016.html

http://www.amnesty.ie/amnesty/live/irish/education/default.asp?page=3693&rec=20&pos=1

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL2441042620070524

http://www.crin.org/resources/InfoDetail.asp?ID=5301

http://www.iheu.org/node/3230

Just a few of the millions of articles...

Dades

Glenster wrote: »

If the question is do schools discriminate based on religion (or lack thereof) my experience is that they don't.

That's fine (though you did say your experience was with secondary, right?) though other people have, anecdotally, experienced it.

Glenster wrote: »

If the question is can they, the answer is yes, and they can discriminate based on the look or criminal record of the parent, based on where the child lives (locationism), based on how much money the parents have, based on all sorts of things. Life.

The only thing they can legally discriminate based on is religion. And suggesting that discrimination is a part of life doesn't really cut it.

Glenster

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't think it's appropriate for a state funded school to pick pupils according to ability or faith. All parents pay taxes to fund these schools

Not only parents, we all pay taxes for schools. We'd all like special attention for our kids (particularly our theorectical ones), we'd all like the curriculum to be tailored specificaly to our needs, but it's not, it cant be. If a religious nut wanted their kid to be taken out of science class every day or a rascist wanted their kid pulled out of French class every day and it cost my kids in equipment and supervision, you're damn right I would object to the school board, anyone would.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't demand anything from a particular school, I ask their protocol.

Really? Good. Why then were you talking about your kid being segregated from the rest of the class during religion class? It's not standard policy to remove children for religion class based on faith (or lack thereof [this is exausting]).

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

My child shouldn't have to go to specific religious classes applicable only to a percentage of the pupils

So do you ask that they not?

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

It's completely unacceptable that the state funded primary education system in Ireland is able to discriminate against children either during admissions or during class time based on parental faith, or lack of - thankfully most see that & that is why the system is changing.

The state funded university system is allowed to discriminate against students based on academics.

The partially state funded university systems of the US and the UK (the two world leaders) are allowed to discriminate against students based on all sorts of things, that's one of the reasons they are the best.

Of course that refers to 18 year olds, it doesnt have the same emotive pull as "my 5 year old is being discriminated against"

Ickle Magoo

Glenster wrote: »

Not only parents, we all pay taxes for schools. We'd all like special attention for our kids (particularly our theorectical ones), we'd all like the curriculum to be tailored specificaly to our needs, but it's not, it cant be. If a religious nut wanted their kid to be taken out of science class every day or a rascist wanted their kid pulled out of French class every day and it cost my kids in equipment and supervision, you're damn right I would object to the school board, anyone would.

This is the crux of the issue. Theists think that secularising schools is all kids going along and doing confirmation classes. What the rest of the world consider secular is a school that accepts everyone regardless of their colour, faith or culture & places no emphasis on a particular ethos.

Glenster wrote: »

Really? Good. Why then were you talking about your kid being segregated from the rest of the class during religion class? It's not standard policy to remove children for religion class based on faith (or lack thereof [this is exausting]).

Because that was the stated protocol, it IS standard policy to segregate kids in some schools, can you see the issue yet?

Glenster wrote: »

So do you ask that they not?

We got places at the ET so thankfully I didn't have to ask anything specific to my kids, I just asked general protocols.

Glenster wrote: »

The state funded university system is allowed to discriminate against students based on academics.

The partially state funded university systems of the US and the UK (the two world leaders) are allowed to discriminate against students based on all sorts of things, that's one of the reasons they are the best.

Of course that refers to 18 year olds, it doesnt have the same emotive pull as "my 5 year old is being discriminated against"

And last time I looked, 18 yr olds don't have a constitutional right to a masters, talk about a strawman!

Glenster

I changed schools in 6th class, so technically it was a primary school I was applying to. And then again in 6th year.

Can schools not discriminate based on location as well? Am I mad for thinking that? And the interview, which I know my parents had when applying to primary school for my little sister, is just an excuse to assess the parents, are they committed to schooling, are they clean, are they wearing tracksuits, can they speak fluent english? Stuff like that.

And discrimination is a nessesary part of life, that's how you get into a job, that's how you find a partner.

Unfair discrimination is bad, and if they're doing that they're bad too, not allowing non catholics in because you dont like non catholics is wrong, but if it's for a budgetary reason, or the parents seem like the trouble-making kind I can understand where the schools are coming from.

Glenster

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Because that was the stated protocol, it IS standard policy to segregate kids in some schools, can you see the issue yet?

No it's not, not unless the parents ask for it, which you said you didn't do.
My friend is a primary school teacher and says she teaches religion to everybody, regardless of creed. They are seperated for the 1 day of preperation for communion at the church, but that's it.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

And last time I looked, 18 yr olds don't have a constitutional right to a masters, talk about a strawman!

*Shakes head*

Children have a constitutional right to an education, not a constitutional right to an education in whatever school they want, was the point I was clearly making.

Glenster

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Frankly, you'd have to be a bit of scobe not to acknowledge the well documented issues surrounding the Irish education system.

He implied that I was a skobe! Call the authorities!

Seriously though do you not know what skobe means? It's like a rough person, like how D4ers used to refer to northsiders back in the late 90's.