30kph Speed Limit on council debate today

Joey the lips

Hi Folks

I was listening to the radio last night and Dermot Lacy was on. He is putting a motion forward to have the limit increased to 40kph.

My first reaction was what fool. Imagine the money just spent on street signs etc. Imagine the amount of people stopped because lets face it. Its nearly impossible to 30kph.

Then I got thinking further, It was dermot Laceys party collegue Andrew Montique(miss spell) that spear headed the speed limit introduction. This man does not drive....

So I figured a man who does not drive and who's wage is partially funded by my road tax contribution has decided that I should drive at a stupid speed in Dublin. His party collegue dis agrees and his party boss disagrees. But before debating this in there own party they launch it across the city.

Why would you listen to them? This is the exact same indecision making that has made labour an impossible coalation partner in the past. I actually think its one of the core reasons that Fianna Fail are in.... Would you trust someone who cant make a simple decission????

I got thinking more. Labour apposed the bin charges in Dublin. However when the crucial vote came there party abstained from voteing. This is on record by the way... So in otherwords they disagreed with them but did not vote them down when they had the chance. Dermot Lacy promised when he was lord mayor he would ultimatly abolish them through a review.... He has come and gone. Is emer colstllo not a labour mayor... Does she disagree with her party stance? Why has she not abolished them?

This is not an anti labour rant. In fact I am more labour than anything else. But I am sure its clear to most. How in the name of god can anyone vote or take labour serious when social issues that are to the front cannot be agreed on.


In the light of George lees resignation of Fine gael it shows on thing about them. They have a plan and no one will change it.

Fianna Fail are writing the plans

But a socialist alternative.... Its most certainly not labour.

Can anyone else see this?

seamus

Joey the lips wrote: »

My first reaction was what fool. Imagine the money just spent on street signs etc. Imagine the amount of people stopped because lets face it. Its nearly impossible to 30kph.

It's dead simple to drive at 30kph.

Then I got thinking further, It was dermot Laceys party collegue Andrew Montique(miss spell) that spear headed the speed limit introduction. This man does not drive....

Have you got a link to back up this assertion? Someone who cycles to work is not necessarily someone who "does not drive".

So I figured a man who does not drive and who's wage is partially funded by my road tax contribution has decided that I should drive at a stupid speed in Dublin.

You don't pay road tax.

His party collegue dis agrees and his party boss disagrees. But before debating this in there own party they launch it across the city.

I'm pretty sure there was a robust debate on the part of Labour, and let's not forget that the motion was voted in by a majority of Dublin City councillors. So this wasn't something which Labour suddenly decided to "impose" on the city. It was a motion proposed by a Labour councillor and approved by members of all political parties.

Why would you listen to them? This is the exact same indecision making that has made labour an impossible coalation partner in the past. I actually think its one of the core reasons that Fianna Fail are in.... Would you trust someone who cant make a simple decission????

At the outset, this appears in fact like a decision was very easily made, but....

This is not an anti labour rant. In fact I am more labour than anything else. But I am sure its clear to most. How in the name of god can anyone vote or take labour serious when social issues that are to the front cannot be agreed on.

My concern is that when things turned bad, instead of doing the right thing, Eamonn Gilmore and a number of other labour TDs decided to ignore any discussion they'd had on the issue, decided to not even talk to their own elected counsellor and left him out in the cold as if this was some scheme he'd cooked up all by himself and pushed through all by himself. He didn't.

I've lost a lot of respect for Eamonn Gilmore due to his conduct in this matter, repeating the same nonsense that has been used as a stick to beat Montague with, without even looking at the bare facts of the situation.

That's the worst kind of populist politics - completely pandering to media/public perceptions at the expense of facts and truth.

Joey the lips

It's dead simple to drive at 30kph.

Yeah ok. I though it was far easier to go the 50kph advertised everywhere. also popular opinion is against you. Look at the amount of people breaking the limit.

Have you got a link to back up this assertion? Someone who cycles to work is not necessarily someone who "does not drive".

He is my neighbour. By the way. He is also a nice man. I am not talking personalities though.

You don't pay road tax.

Ok Car tax. Lets be pandantic. But imagine at the onset of the car tax you were told. Right we are going to tax you. At a future date we are going to introduce a 30kph speed limit and we may ban you from the city.... That would havve been interesting

I'm pretty sure there was a robust debate on the part of Labour, and let's not forget that the motion was voted in by a majority of Dublin City councillors. So this wasn't something which Labour suddenly decided to "impose" on the city. It was a motion proposed by a Labour councillor and approved by members of all political parties.

Yes. But if you cannot see the stupidity I am not in a position to aid you. It was preposed by andrew as transport spokesman. If i was in labour and i sat on a panel if they asked me to bring something in I would refer it to my party for debate. Especially something this big.

At the outset, this appears in fact like a decision was very easily made, but....
My concern is that when things turned bad, instead of doing the right thing, Eamonn Gilmore and a number of other labour TDs decided to ignore any discussion they'd had on the issue, decided to not even talk to their own elected counsellor and left him out in the cold as if this was some scheme he'd cooked up all by himself and pushed through all by himself. He didn't.

Eamonn gilmore..... The workers party, Democratic left, Labour.... He has an interesting record. Maybe oppertunistic.

I've lost a lot of respect for Eamonn Gilmore due to his conduct in this matter, repeating the same nonsense that has been used as a stick to beat Montague with, without even looking at the bare facts of the situation.

That's the worst kind of populist politics - completely pandering to media/public perceptions at the expense of facts and truth.

agreed! This is my problem with labour.

mike65

The 30 kp/h issue is being discussed on Pat Kennys radio programme this morning (I'll bump this when its flagged if I can).

mike65

Bump!

www.rte.ie/radio1

Joey the lips

mike65 wrote: »

Bump!

www.rte.ie/radio1

Yes just listening.

seamus

Joey the lips wrote: »

Yeah ok. I though it was far easier to go the 50kph advertised everywhere. also popular opinion is against you. Look at the amount of people breaking the limit.

People breaking the limit doesn't mean that it's hard to maintain. This is off topic and has been discussed elsewhere, but there is no vehicle on the road which cannot maintain 30kph. Inability to do so lies with the driver, not the vehicle.

He is my neighbour. By the way. He is also a nice man. I am not talking personalities though.

OK, I'll accept that.

Ok Car tax. Lets be pandantic. But imagine at the onset of the car tax you were told. Right we are going to tax you. At a future date we are going to introduce a 30kph speed limit and we may ban you from the city.... That would havve been interesting

There's a disconnect here. Motor tax doesn't pay for the upkeep of the roads and it doesn't "buy" you the right to use the roads. So taxing someone and then imposing an unrelated measure on them later on matters not. It happens all the time. They increase tax on alcohol and then drop the BAC limit.

Yes. But if you cannot see the stupidity I am not in a position to aid you. It was preposed by andrew as transport spokesman. If i was in labour and i sat on a panel if they asked me to bring something in I would refer it to my party for debate. Especially something this big.

The scale is debateable. I don't consider this a big issue. It's a change in speed limit on a set of roads. These changes don't usually go up for party debate because they're small local council decisions, and they happen all the time without any party debates.
I think that's a mistake - there should be a national body with the exclusive remit of determining speed limits - but again that's a different debate.

It'll be a dark day for Irish democracy if the councillors decide to overturn this because the media have decided to make a big deal of it.

Saruman

I have to disagree with Seamus. It is not dead easy to drive at 30kph. It is very difficult indeed and requires a lot of concentration. In fact you could make the argument that if it takes so much concentration to stay at 30kph then it is concentration taken away from potential hazards on the road making it more dangerous.

The car simply wants to go faster. Staying in second gear is the only way to stay below or at the limit. At least in the car I have driven through the city since it was introduced.
Even the road safety authority claim it is an unnatural cruising speed for a car.

There is no reason to reduce the speed limit. All they have to do is enforce the existing 50kph limit in the first place.

I have not seen a single speed limit sign saying 30kph except the ones that were put in a year or two ago on certain streets.
In fact there are very few speed limit signs in the city centre at all.

Sierra Oscar

Joey the lips wrote: »

Fianna Fail are writing the plans

Huh? Fianna Fail are not in control of the local councils across the State. Labor & Fine Gael are - they themselves have the power to halt any motions at a local level.

malcolmtucker

I am actually pretty sure Montague does drive. Saw him hopping in a car outside City Hall only last week

seamus

Saruman wrote: »

I have to disagree with Seamus. It is not dead easy to drive at 30kph. It is very difficult indeed and requires a lot of concentration. In fact you could make the argument that if it takes so much concentration to stay at 30kph then it is concentration taken away from potential hazards on the road making it more dangerous.

The car simply wants to go faster. Staying in second gear is the only way to stay below or at the limit. At least in the car I have driven through the city since it was introduced.
Even the road safety authority claim it is an unnatural cruising speed for a car.

I don't want to drag this thread off-topic because there are other debates elsewhere that deal with this (check the motors board), but the above is complete nonsense - just change 30kph to 50kph to see why.

When is Dermot Lacey's motion due to be debated/voted on?

Jumpy

Saruman wrote: »

I have to disagree with Seamus. It is not dead easy to drive at 30kph. It is very difficult indeed and requires a lot of concentration. In fact you could make the argument that if it takes so much concentration to stay at 30kph then it is concentration taken away from potential hazards on the road making it more dangerous.

The car simply wants to go faster. Staying in second gear is the only way to stay below or at the limit. At least in the car I have driven through the city since it was introduced.
Even the road safety authority claim it is an unnatural cruising speed for a car.

I have no problems driving at 30kmph, it doesnt require any additional concentration on my part, but then I was used to doing it in the country I was born in.
Maybe its a reflection of the driving standards of this country, it certainly isnt a good sign that you have an inability to drive slowly.

But by all means, listen to 'what the car wants'.

Saruman

I don't have an inability to drive slowly, I usually drive at 25kph in my housing estate.
On city streets though, this is a different story. The only way my car (which is now dead since Friday) could do 30kph was in 2nd gear. Third gear pushed the car forward beyond this without me even pushing the accelerator so that means I either stay in second which is very bad for the car, environment and my sanity if I am driving across town or else put it in third and apply the brakes the whole journey.

30kph is fine on the odd road or in housing estates where there is a real danger of a child running out in front of you.

On busy, wide, city streets it is unnatural especially on a longer distance like driving across town. Spending 40 minutes in second gear when the traffic is not bumper to bumper makes no sense to me.

There is also no info on where the speed limit applies. They expect everyone to go online and find out? Not everyone has internet access. Where are the signs?

The decision should be reversed and the 50kph limit actually enforced.

Jumpy

It was brought in to make it safer, 50kmh is far more likely to kill a pedestrian hence the speed reduction. Enforcing 50kmh will not change that.

It has already been stated that the speed change affects travelling time by just over 5 minutes. So I am not sure where the 40 minutes is coming from if the traffic is not bumper to bumper as you state.

concussion

Saruman wrote: »

Spending 40 minutes in second gear when the traffic is not bumper to bumper makes no sense to me.

You managed to find a 20 kilometer route around the 30 kph zone and didn't encounter any traffic lights?

T runner

Saruman wrote: »

I don't have an inability to drive slowly, I usually drive at 25kph in my housing estate.
On city streets though, this is a different story. The only way my car (which is now dead since Friday) could do 30kph was in 2nd gear. Third gear pushed the car forward beyond this without me even pushing the accelerator so that means I either stay in second which is very bad for the car, environment and my sanity if I am driving across town or else put it in third and apply the brakes the whole journey.

30kph is fine on the odd road or in housing estates where there is a real danger of a child running out in front of you.

On busy, wide, city streets it is unnatural especially on a longer distance like driving across town. Spending 40 minutes in second gear when the traffic is not bumper to bumper makes no sense to me.

There is also no info on where the speed limit applies. They expect everyone to go online and find out? Not everyone has internet access. Where are the signs?

The decision should be reversed and the 50kph limit actually enforced.

There are a lot more pedestrians than cars in the designated zones. There are also 17,000 residents and 6 schools.

The time lost by cars going at this speed on average can probable be measured in seconds. The many areas where this has been successfully introduced e.g Newcastle has resulted in a halving of pedestrian deaths.

What is the big deal? I live on the edge of the zone. I have absolutely no problem with it.

Overheal

Joey the Lips wrote:

Imagine the money just spent on street signs etc.

How much do you think a sign costs?

I remember putting some up for a Community Service sentence one time. Really, Really nothing to them. Sheet metal, 2 bolts, 2 nuts, done.

I have to disagree with Seamus. It is not dead easy to drive at 30kph. It is very difficult indeed and requires a lot of concentration. In fact you could make the argument that if it takes so much concentration to stay at 30kph then it is concentration taken away from potential hazards on the road making it more dangerous.

The car simply wants to go faster. Staying in second gear is the only way to stay below or at the limit. At least in the car I have driven through the city since it was introduced.
Even the road safety authority claim it is an unnatural cruising speed for a car.

There is no reason to reduce the speed limit. All they have to do is enforce the existing 50kph limit in the first place.

I have not seen a single speed limit sign saying 30kph except the ones that were put in a year or two ago on certain streets.
In fact there are very few speed limit signs in the city centre at all.

Im sorry but I just dont buy this. Why does it take "So much concentration"? I have no problem maintaining 30kph.

Drive in 2nd or keep it in 3rd. Whatever keeps you happy. If you want to drive in 3rd heres a spolier alert: you dont need to have a lead foot. These things are like playstation 3 controllers, theyre sensitive to a thousand or more degrees of pressure. Its true! You also dont need to be afraid to take your foot off the accelerator to coast for a moment or two.

Honestly you'd swear you were never in traffic before. Gaaaaas-BRAKES-Gaaaaaas-BRAKES why not just Gas.......Gas.....

JustinDee

Joey the lips wrote: »

Imagine the money just spent on street signs etc

Signs? You've seen some?
I've seen one. At the westernmost end of the North Quays. Thats about it. So I wouldn't say there's a lot of money spent.

The 30km/h limit is unrealistic and elsewhere is used for roads going through areas with pedestrian crossings where the pedstrian must rely on driver stopping rather than a set of lights instructing driver to prepare then stop.
It has also slowed up traffic on the quays ridiculously.

Its an unworkable speed limit and entirely unnecessary.

HxGH

Feckin' Noel Dempsey.

I just know its all his fault.

LostinBlanch

It's having an effect.

The bould Andrew :rolleyes: is backpedalling madly, desperately trying to save what remains of his (hopefully short) political career.

THE architect of the new 30kmh speed limit in the centre of Dublin has proposed a U-turn over the changes following a massive public backlash.

Labour councillor Andrew Montague last night outlined plans which reduce the areas covered by the drastic 30kmh zone in central Dublin.

Motorists have reacted with anger to the zone in Dublin city centre, especially around the quays where they say traffic is being unnecessarily slowed.

Cllr Montague said he would put forward a new plan which would keep the 30kmh zone between Capel Street Bridge and O'Connell Bridge, but revert the rest of the quays to their former 50kmh limit.

In addition, the eastern boundary of the zone would be pulled back from Merrion Street to Kildare Street.

An emergency meeting of Dublin City Council's transport committee is expected to discuss the proposals before they are brought before the next full meeting of councillors at the beginning of March.

Dublin City Council has moved to defend the scheme, which it said was there for safety reasons and was in line with best international practice.

His party have realised they're being outflanked by FG who have put in a motion against the current speed limit for the next council meeting in March.

I heard the bould Andrew :rolleyes: being caught out in another untruth about Macken St Bridge on Pat Kenny yesterday. He had previously said that traffic couldn't filter left onto the bridge due to Board Pleanála conditions and it wasn't anything to do with the City Council. Kenny said that they had contacted an Bord Pleanála who told him that they merely rubberstamped City Council request for traffic not being allowed to filter left onto the bridge. Cue yet more backpedalling. Conducting proper research isn't really the forte for the bould Andrew :rolleyes: is it?

Bill G

Saruman wrote: »

The only way my car (which is now dead since Friday) could do 30kph was in 2nd gear. Third gear pushed the car forward beyond this without me even pushing the accelerator so that means I either stay in second which is very bad for the car, environment and my sanity if I am driving across town or else put it in third and apply the brakes the whole journey.

How is driving in second very bad for the car? That makes no sense.
How is driving in second very bad for the environment? Most cars have their best fuel economy around 20mph (30kph). See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_automobiles