The Statistics of Penis Wielding Oppressors

Giselle

CDfm wrote: »

IRL lots of my friends are women and one is a short haired lesbian whose sense of humour is similar to mine and a nice girlfriend too. All in all not a bad life.

Lol. First thing that I thought of was ''I'm not racist, one of my best friends is black!''

I guess that proves how pro-woman you are CDfm.

metrovelvet

Giselle wrote: »

Lol. First thing that I thought of was ''I'm not racist, one of my best friends is black!''

I guess that proves how pro-woman you are CDfm.

My thoughts exactly.

norrie rugger

Thaedydal wrote: »

No and Yes.

No as in it's not all mens fault but Yes as in it's societies fault and men are a part of that and upholding the status quo and more so often in the world of business and work.

Are you also as vocal about the society expectations that drive guys to leave school early?

CDfm

Giselle wrote: »

Lol. First thing that I thought of was ''I'm not racist, one of my best friends is black!''

I guess that proves how pro-woman you are CDfm.

Yes I have black friends too.

It means that my posts came across as a bit harsher than I intended them to.

Of course, I could say that asking a womens group to handle male victims is like asking the church to regulate clerical offenders. :rolleyes:

CDfm

norrie rugger wrote: »

Are you also as vocal about the society expectations that drive guys to leave school early?

Haha Norrie -don't go there.You will find that she is.

norrie rugger

CDfm wrote: »

Haha Norrie -don't go there.You will find that she is.

Good thing so, I was just curious
Reason being is that I am the only one of my entire group of friends who went to college, after finishing school.

Some of the lads have gone back to do their leaving/degrees, in their 20's, to their credit

metrovelvet

What expectations drive them to leave school?

CDfm

norrie rugger wrote: »

Some of the lads have gone back to do their leaving/degrees, in their 20's, to their credit

schools nowdays are not guy friendly places

you cant imagine a rock band starting out in a school nowdays - fashion designer maybe -rock star no

metrovelvet

What are you talking about? Arent most schools single sex? How would an all boy school not be guy friendly?

the_syco

CDfm wrote: »

My girlfriend can lift me and if you saw the amount of small guys in the US infantry etc you would change your point of view on that.

The difference what your average small man, and what your average small woman can carry is different.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Hold on - marching for more rights for women is good, but marching for more rights for men is bad?

Actually, I do believe O said it is "seen" to be bad.

taconnol wrote: »

Personally, I think the state should just say to a couple: right, here's 9 months (or whatever), you're both grown adults - figure it out between the two of you.

Although I fully support this, I will say that it's good the way it is, as women get post-pregnancy depression, and the time after helps them get their head together to face work again.

CDfm wrote: »

you cant imagine a rock band starting out in a school nowdays - fashion designer maybe -rock star no

I suppose you're right. Any bands that I know where people have started in school are metal bands.

metrovelvet wrote: »

What are you talking about? Arent most schools single sex? How would an all boy school not be guy friendly?

Most schools that I know of are mixed.

Unfortunately, as men and womens brains are wired differently, a "one size fits all" approach in regards teaching them is not good.

Macha

the_syco wrote: »

Although I fully support this, I will say that it's good the way it is, as women get post-pregnancy depression, and the time after helps them get their head together to face work again.

Some women do, some women don't. And men can also suffer from post natal depression, albeit at lower rates. Flexibility for couples is key.

An important point to make about paternal leave is that women bond very strongly with their baby during pregnancy and also after birth when breastfeeding, as the 'bonding hormone' ocytocin is released. Men don't have this opportunity and so I think it's vitally important for fathers to spend quality time instead of being marched back to work the next day.

metrovelvet

taconnol wrote: »

Some women do, some women don't. And men can also suffer from post natal depression, albeit at lower rates. Flexibility for couples is key.

An important point to make about paternal leave is that women bond very strongly with their baby during pregnancy and also after birth when breastfeeding, as the 'bonding hormone' ocytocin is released. Men don't have this opportunity and so I think it's vitally important for fathers to spend quality time instead of being marched back to work the next day.

Men dont have the hormonal crash. How do they have pnd? Next you'll tell me they lactate too. Not all women bond with their children during pregnancy or even after the birth.

Maternity leave is for the body to recover. Employers dont grant it so you can bond.

This is real limosine liberalism if I ever saw it.

Giselle

taconnol wrote: »

Some women do, some women don't. And men can also suffer from post natal depression, albeit at lower rates. Flexibility for couples is key.

An important point to make about paternal leave is that women bond very strongly with their baby during pregnancy and also after birth when breastfeeding, as the 'bonding hormone' ocytocin is released. Men don't have this opportunity and so I think it's vitally important for fathers to spend quality time instead of being marched back to work the next day.

Is a major factor in maternity leave an opportunity for the womans body to recover from the trauma of childbirth? Are we so focused on equality now that we can't acknowledge that its women who get pregnant and give birth and that men have no physical trauma or recovery when it comes to children?

They can't actually breastfeed either.

So I'm told anyway.

Edit: Sorry Metrovelvet I didn't see your post and I'm just basically reiterating your point.

Macha

metrovelvet wrote: »

Men dont have the hormonal crash. How do they have pnd? Next you'll tell me they lactate too. Not all women bond with their children during pregnancy or even after the birth.

Maternity leave is for the body to recover. Employers dont grant it so you can bond.

Are you questioning whether men suffer from post-natal depression? The research is there if you look for it.

Where does it say that maternity leave is only for the body to recover? And if it does, should this be the case? What is this country's problem with treating mental health as equal to physical health?

If you notice, I'm not saying that women shouldn't take maternity leave, I'm saying leave it up to the couples' good judgement as to who takes what time.

Procasinator

metrovelvet wrote: »

Arent most schools single sex?

I don't think so - never heard as such. Have no hard figures, but this article from 2007 says 1/4 of primary students are in single sex schools and 1/3 of post-primary.

It's also an interesting in the sense that it blames single sex for the gap between males and females in education (although, with no real hard link).

the_syco wrote: »

Unfortunately, as men and womens brains are wired differently, a "one size fits all" approach in regards teaching them is not good.

While the article doesn't really explain the "gender gap", I don't think segregation is the answer to this. While a one size fits all approach is not good in education, I think this falls more along the lines of teaching methodologies and individual learning abilities rather than purely on a gender line.

It also probably doesn't help that there a fewer role models in education for men in primary to secondary.

metrovelvet

taconnol wrote: »

Are you questioning whether men suffer from post-natal depression? The research is there if you look for it.

Where does it say that maternity leave is only for the body to recover? And if it does, should this be the case? What is this country's problem with treating mental health as equal to physical health?

If you notice, I'm not saying that women shouldn't take maternity leave, I'm saying leave it up to the couples' good judgement as to who takes what time.

Right. Ok. So you mean paternity leave for men in a couple, not single fathers right? Unless the single dads had pnd?

Macha

metrovelvet wrote: »

Right. Ok. So you mean paternity leave for men in a couple, not single fathers right? Unless the single dads had pnd?

Yeah sorry am totally on the defensive today! What you said

metrovelvet

Procasinator wrote: »

I don't think so - never heard as such. Have no hard figures, but this article from 2007 says 1/4 of primary students are in single sex schools and 1/3 of post-primary.

It's also an interesting in the sense that it blames single sex for the gap between males and females in education (although, with no real hard link).



While the article doesn't really explain the "gender gap", I don't think segregation is the answer to this. While a one size fits all approach is not good in education, I think this falls more along the lines of teaching methodologies and individual learning abilities rather than purely on a gender line.

It also probably doesn't help that there a fewer role models in education for men in primary to secondary.

There is a theory that boys should start later than girls because they are slower to develop. But what has this got to do with schools not being guy friendly? Arent the most prestigious schools in the country for boys?

Macha

metrovelvet wrote: »

Arent the most prestigious schools in the country for boys?

And they are prime networking schools as well - just look at the alumni of Blackrock College. Although of course, class and income play big factors here.

metrovelvet

taconnol wrote: »

And they are prime networking schools as well - just look at the alumni of Blackrock College. Although of course, class and income play big factors here.

Thats what I thought. I dont understand what people mean by society's expectations leading to drop out rates for boys. I thought everyone wants to see their son in medical school.

Macha

metrovelvet wrote: »

Thats what I thought. I dont understand what people mean by society's expectations leading to drop out rates for boys. I thought everyone wants to see their son in medical school.

God, no. It's hard to understand if you don't come from that type of family but there are plenty of families where either:
a) there is little or no expectation by the parents that the child will do their Leaving Cert or go to Uni
b) no role models for the child to consider doing so a reasonable course of action
c) the child (mostly male?) expected to bring money into the household.

Other than that, I'd really be interested to see an explanation of why more young males drop out of school.

CDfm

taconnol wrote: »

Some women do, some women don't. And men can also suffer from post natal depression, albeit at lower rates. Flexibility for couples is key.

An important point to make about paternal leave is that women bond very strongly with their baby during pregnancy and also after birth when breastfeeding, as the 'bonding hormone' ocytocin is released. Men don't have this opportunity and so I think it's vitally important for fathers to spend quality time instead of being marched back to work the next day.

I have heard that post natal depression is "catching" and you are right that guys do not get paternity leave.

taconnol wrote: »

If you notice, I'm not saying that women shouldn't take maternity leave, I'm saying leave it up to the couples' good judgement as to who takes what time.

A very important point and if the woman is the main earner why cant they sort the parental leave out between them to maximize revenue.

I mean its been a while since men hunted for dinner or dug spuds but really if the female is the main earner why cant the man stay at home.

I dont know Taco but do you think that women are clinging to the caring role at the expense of progress. It would seem to be so.

metrovelvet

I find what you said terribly sad. I cant believe it. But why does that apply to boys and not girls?

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metrovelvet wrote: »

Thats what I thought. I dont understand what people mean by society's expectations leading to drop out rates for boys. I thought everyone wants to see their son in medical school.

At the very top level there is no gap between male and female achievement. Every August there's no shortage of characters like this guy and this guy. And male third level students outperform female students.

About the drop-out rate - there's plenty of food for thought in the school leaver survey. 2007 (the most recent year statistics are available for) is here.

Of particular interest is the chart detailing reasons for leaving school (Figure 2.2b, page 14 of the doc/33 of the pdf). 'School reasons' (aka, 'I hated school') and 'health reasons' ('I was sick') are almost equal male/female. But there's a huge discrepancy between 'economic or work reasons' (70% of male school leavers cite this vs. 42% of females) and again in 'family reasons' (often perhaps aka 'I got pregnant'??) - 25% of females cite this vs. 7% of males.

Remembering that this is 2007, and the leavers in question dropped out in 2005, there are significant economic opportunities for young men with no qualifications in industries like construction. This sort of work for males pays better than unskilled work for females (who can expect minimum wage in the likes of retail or waitressing). So there's more incentive for a female to stay in education to bring her earning power up to what a male's could be.

The final section, detailing the economic status of school leavers 12-18 months after dropping out is very interesting as well. In particular males without the Leaving Cert are 10% more likely to be employed than females. Men are more likely to be apprenticed, training, or back in education. Females are slightly more likely to be unemployed but the biggest reason for the discrepancy is that 15-17% of them are 'unavailable for work' (again I think we can read this as largely pregnancy).

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CDfm wrote: »

I dont know Taco but do you think that women are clinging to the caring role at the expense of progress. It would seem to be so.

Someone remarked earlier in the thread that it's women who enforce standards of dress and beauty on other women - they're the ones doing the ostracising and the bitching. I think men can play a part as well - they can ostracise and bitch with the best of them - but definitely women are the primary gatekeepers of 'womanliness'.

And it cuts both ways. Look at this thread for example. Guys wearing makeup. Who is shocked, appalled, and disgusted by this? Other dudes. Yeah some women are too but the ones leading the derision are men. Men are far more concerned with keeping up with what's 'manly' than women.

Someone - Thaedydal I think - said earlier that it's society that enforces these norms. I think that's broadly right - and there are plenty of men who deride women who don't shave their legs, and plenty of women who mock men wearing guyliner. But primarily the sexes police themselves. Humans don't like humans who are different.

This all sounds very pessimistic. I'm not a pessimistic person and I actually think that the outlook is much more favourable than the above might seem. Humans are open to change. So maybe twenty or thirty years ago women faced social disapproval for working when they had children. And that hasn't totally gone away - just Google 'Mommy wars' to see the crap people put each other through for choosing to either work or stay at home (seriously, you can't win). But it's changed massively. More people did it so it became acceptable. That will happen with stay-at-home dads

This thread is very instructive. And it bodes well for the future I think. Lots of people have no problem with stay at home dads. In fact there's a fair few people who wouldn't rule out doing it themselves (and some who actually are doing it - but notably that's because the recession has them unemployed). BUT - who are the people who say they have a problem with it? Well, they're mostly men. As I said - men are gatekeepers for what's acceptably 'manly'.

But even more pressing than this I think the reason most people say they choose the woman to stay at home is because the man is earning more and they need the money. Now maybe for some this is a get-out clause or an excuse so they don't have to admit that at heart they think men should be providers and women should be carers, but for many I think it's absolutely true. So ultimately if men and women's salaries become more in line maybe we will see more women able to be sole providers and more men able to stay at home. It is definitely better for children to have the person at home being there because they want to be and because they are the best nurturer - not because they are pigeonholed.

It is really very sad that feminism and men's or father's wellbeing is often put in opposition to each other because honestly ultimately they build each other up I think and generally the more victories each wins the more both sexes benefit. It is great for men to see women partners earning more. It is great for women to see paternity leave. It is great for everybody to see a schooling system that treats everybody (including people who are not very academic and would be happier in vocational programmes - whether they are male or female) fairly and it's great for everybody to consider career paths like nursing or like apprenticeships open to them regardless of their sex.

And like I said, I am an optimist and we are gradually moving towards that. It is much, much better to be a man or a women now than 100 years ago or even 30 years ago. We all live longer, we are all free to get divorced or be gay or dance in a field with sunshine and rainbows. :D

CDfm

Thaedydal wrote: »

No and Yes.

No as in it's not all mens fault but Yes as in it's societies fault and men are a part of that and upholding the status quo and more so often in the world of business and work.

Societies fault that with equal opportunity at education that 533,000 women take themselves out of the workplace and do home duties vs 7,000 men.


These are equally educated etc and in the age group 65 + there are 80 men to 100 women because the other twenty are dead and wont reach retirement age.

So where are the advantages to being a man there.

As a country we spend a lot of money educating women for equal opportunities that many dont either take up or leave behind. You cant blame society for a choice an individual makes.

Nevyn

Ok then I should have taken one of my lecturers advice and dropped out of electronics to typing cos I was taking up a place in the course a man needed to he could feed his family as I was only going to end up at home any way? Bollocks.

It is grand to make sweeping statements about having 'choice' but how realistic are those choices? How many of the average man can manage a household do all the cleaning and childcare and juggling?

There are some and they are wonderful but that is not the traditional skill set and until we have children both male and female raised to do all the house hold chores competently we will see such a disparity as it's not just the better earner who has to stay at home some times but the better skilled person at doing those set of jobs.

I consistently earned more money then my co parent when I was working but I ended up being the stay at home parent as he could not do half of the house hold chores when we were both working never mind the bulk of them if he was to stay at home.

Nevyn

Oh and if took some vary serious and hard working and fighting feminists to make the rape crises centre happen then wonderful as it was needed and going to the local family dr wasn't possible ( still isn't for some people ) esp in a country where rape rape in marriage was not a crime then we need more feminists like that, esp when it became apparent that there were no services for male rape and sexual assault victims they expanded their remit, resources and services to men rather then taking what some would consider to be the
'real feminist' line and say all men are rapists and we can't have someone with a penis near a rape survivour :rolleyes:
nevermind in the support groups.

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CDfm wrote: »

As a country we spend a lot of money educating women for equal opportunities that many dont either take up or leave behind.

Ah this is the whole GP thing again?

Well if we actually have a look at it I don't think this is as big a problem as people think. There are no hard facts that I can find, it's just recently become a talking point and I think it needs some real research. But here are some thoughts that the issue is probably more complicated than just 'women have babies so why bother training them?'.

So we are spending 6 years training people to be doctors. They graduate at 24/25 and we could expect them to work to retirement age at 65. So we are getting 40 years of work out of them for 6 years training.

Now some - ok, overwhelmingly women - will stop working to have children. They are highly paid professionals and women like that a) don't have many children and b) aren't prepared to give up the money they are earning when they do. Women like that are in fact the least likely to become stay at home mothers. People get used to living a certain lifestyle and at a certain income range. And you know, they worked pretty hard through being a student and a junior doctor and when they finally hit their thirties (which is when women like this have children, if not later) they are finally seeing some payoff and they don't want to give that up.

So they are having one or two children and staying at home really only until those children are in school - basically five years. Then they are back to earning the big bucks. So instead of getting 40 years of work out of them we've gotten 35. Now that's not as big a result but it's hardly earth-shattering, economy-destroying, or worth nothing. It's not bad.

Now consider all those men. If they are more ambitious than the female doctors they will hurtle up their careers but they may not want to stay in Ireland - they will go to the US or the UK to further specialise or go private where they can really make big bucks. Or maybe they will be some of the early diers and keel over of a heart attack at 50 and we'll have only gotten 25 years of work out of them! (tongue in cheek!) So there is no shortage of attrition there too. Bottom line is any gender can feck off and stiff us for their tuition. We are taking a gamble paying for free education for anyone. Yes it's great if we get people who are the first in their family to go to college and they are achieving things they never could otherwise, but there's plenty of people taking us for a ride as well. In the context of doctors we should be far more worried about the ones we are losing forever to the UK or US than the ones we lose for couple of maternity leaves.

Back to the women doctors - some may choose to be GPs for the friendlier hours but that doesn't mean we suffer. My GP's office has two part timers basically job sharing - A works Monday and Tuesday and B works Wed-Fri. Works great for them and patients aren't affected. Why not?

Now there is one big difference between now and a GP of twenty or thirty years ago and that is that the likes of house calls and locums coming out late at night are much harder to come by. But that is a problem that has been building up for years. Nobody wants to do that any more. Everybody prizes quality of life now. Shift work in the middle of the night? Are you having a laugh, thinks the doctor - male or female. I didn't work my ass off for years as a student and junior doctor to do shift work. That's for saps. No thanks. Male doctors aren't lining up to be locums - in fact if you have to call a doctor to the house in the middle of the night, who comes? A recent emigrant. They are the only ones who want (or maybe it would be more accurate to say need) that sort of work.

Not to sound jingoistic but if we are worried about not having enough doctors we need to a) pressure the medical board to recommend we take higher numbers of students - every year hundreds of very intelligent people are turned away and remember it's in doctors interests to recommend low numbers of students to keep the profession prestigious, well paid, and in demand. or b) stop medical schools from taking so many foreign students - yes they pay well for the education but then they go home to their own country.

CDfm

Thaedydal wrote: »

Ok then I should have taken one of my lecturers advice and dropped out of electronics to typing cos I was taking up a place in the course a man needed to he could feed his family as I was only going to end up at home any way? Bollocks.

A brave man.

It is grand to make sweeping statements about having 'choice' but how realistic are those choices? How many of the average man can manage a household do all the cleaning and childcare and juggling?

There are some and they are wonderful but that is not the traditional skill set and until we have children both male and female raised to do all the house hold chores competently we will see such a disparity as it's not just the better earner who has to stay at home some times but the better skilled person at doing those set of jobs.

I dont disagree on the stereotype but you seem to be taking this one personally. It is a stereoype that the woman stays at home and skills can be acquired.

I consistently earned more money then my co parent when I was working but I ended up being the stay at home parent as he could not do half of the house hold chores when we were both working never mind the bulk of them if he was to stay at home.

It can be done. Hey I would have stayed home quite happily:D

You are talking about your own situation.

Personnally speaking I think a lot of the resorses that are budgeted for women in public expenditure should be redirected towards childcare. Other countries do it.