So Enda Kenny is lacking charisma...

Pappy o' daniel

I keep hearing this over and over, but I ask myself he is lacking charisma compared to who exactly? Brian Cowen, Willie o'Dea, Gormley, Mary Harney? None of these people could be called charismatic.
Its just lazily repeated by the media and I dont think it stands up to scrutiny.

mike65

Oh it does...

bmaxi

Every time I see Kenny speak in the Dáil it looks rehearsed and contrived, as if he doesn't himself, believe what he is saying. I know most politicians have speechwriters but with Kenny it is so obvious they are not his words.
I have in the past accused him of lacking charisma but there is also this inability to inspire confidence.

Liam Byrne

bmaxi wrote: »

Every time I see Kenny speak in the Dáil it looks rehearsed and contrived, as if he doesn't himself, believe what he is saying.

I still think I'd prefer this to having someone spouting lies, PR spin, and bull****. and looking like they believe it.

So the OP does have a point.

It's unfortunately a sign of the standard of politics, however Obama had "charisma" and "goodwill" and it's only now that he's making any progress whatsoever.

So I'd gladly lose the charisma and the jokey con-man smugness and faux sincerity in return for someone who could actually do the job.

epgc3fyqirnbsx

I think it's a bit shallow of Irish politics, and indeed probably politics the world over, that we are always looking for this super-human who can transform a country into a Utopia while still being loved by your auntie and your ideal candidate to take for a pint.

It's like politics being a form of Pop Idol.
We really shouldn't give a damn if somone comes across as a bit of a bore and hasn't a fantastic smile. The real question is whether they can possibly run the country in an efficient manner while providing the services that country needs.
It's all down to taxes collected and how its spent at the end of the day. Sounds like an accountants job and they aren't renound for being JFK type characters

Owen

The problem with Enda is he's snooze worthy. His facial expression never changes, his voice is a long drawn on monotone drone, never changing in pitch or urgency, and what drives me mental is the way he accents the second syllable in every word. "Sign my con-TRACT!". He's perceived as a bogger, because he behaves like a bogger.

conorhal

Pappy o' daniel wrote: »

I keep hearing this over and over, but I ask myself he is lacking charisma compared to who exactly? .

Compared to a garden gnome frankly.....

Its just lazily repeated by the media and I dont think it stands up to scrutiny

What does not stand up to scrutiny is Enda Kenny. He apears on talk shows for what reason? I can only assume to present himself as an alternative leader for this country and to lay out his leadership CV.
Clearly people remain unconvinced, continuously unconvinced because despite repeated attempts on his part, he has never been able to comunicate his leadership skills or offer a clear and conscise alternative government policy, and that's a serious problem for his credibility and a valid concern for the electorate because if he can't communicate policy or inspire a following, what hope has he of effectively governing?
If the people see a man that can't lead his party or communicate it's message, how do you expect them to elect the man to lead his country?

What is consistant is FGers citing FG's poll lead over FF as a badge of Kenny's successful stuardship of the party, but I don't see it, as far as I'm concerned FG's success has more to do with ABFF's (anybody but FF) rather than their perception as a viable alternative.

People are tired of hearing the same ol party spiel, old party rhetoric and the same old political double talk, obfuscation and failure to answer a direct question. They want REAL leadership. And Kenny aint it.

Laminations

Mariana Curved Plantain wrote: »

I think it's a bit shallow of Irish politics, and indeed probably politics the world over, that we are always looking for this super-human who can transform a country into a Utopia while still being loved by your auntie and your ideal candidate to take for a pint.

It's like politics being a form of Pop Idol.
We really shouldn't give a damn if somone comes across as a bit of a bore and hasn't a fantastic smile. The real question is whether they can possibly run the country in an efficient manner while providing the services that country needs.
It's all down to taxes collected and how its spent at the end of the day. Sounds like an accountants job and they aren't renound for being JFK type characters

Agreed...but leaders (in any sphere) should be inspirational and good communicators

flutered

one thinks that a carboard cut out of him with an actor doing voice overs would have as much effect on the great unwashed

Colonel Sanders

Apologises for bringing up the Simpsons but whenever this is bandied around I always think of Mr Burns v Mary Bailey or Homer v Ray Paterson

I think Enda genuinely says to himself constantly 'I don't need to act the clown or be charismatic, who in their right mind would actually vote for FF'.

Unfortunately a quote of Joe Quimby's comes to mind about the electorate 'They're like trained seals, toss em a fish and watch em slap their fins together'

Liam Byrne

PaintDoctor wrote: »

The problem with Enda is he's snooze worthy. His facial expression never changes, his voice is a long drawn on monotone drone, never changing in pitch or urgency, and what drives me mental is the way he accents the second syllable in every word. "Sign my con-TRACT!". He's perceived as a bogger, because he behaves like a bogger.

What exactly is a "bogger" ? And why is "perceived as a bogger" wrong ?

Lots of old country folk have a hell of a lot more cop-on, and concept of right and wrong, and an appreciation of value for money than so-called "sophisticated" people.

And we can't forget that a certain "city slicker" drove us to ruin.

I don't give a bollox where someone's from, as long as they're ethical, fair, and can do their job.

Laminations wrote: »

Agreed...but leaders (in any sphere) should be inspirational and good communicators

We've never demanded that up to now. Why change ? Unless it suits FF's agenda to get people to talk about it.

Owen

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What exactly is a "bogger" ? And why is "perceived as a bogger" wrong ?

You know well what a bogger is. There's no right or wrong about it - and i didn't say there was anything wrong with it either. Unfortunately, if you're from the city, and show charisma, you'll get votes from the city and countryside. If you sound and act like you've stepped down from a Massey Ferguson, you'll get the countryside votes.

Irish politics are shallow. Bertie was far from honest, but the old dears all voted him in because he (In my mother's words) had a lovely smile about him, and wasn't the worst of them.

epgc3fyqirnbsx

Laminations wrote: »

Agreed...but leaders (in any sphere) should be inspirational and good communicators

Ideally yes.

Should we be so fortunate? Rarely...

Laminations

Liam Byrne wrote: »

We've never demanded that up to now. Why change ? Unless it suits FF's agenda to get people to talk about it.

We've never demande much, thats been our problem. Liam you dont need to worry about my priorities, i've made it known i place more credence on ethics and ability than charisma. And in case you thought otherwise, i dont think Brian 'hand in the pocket, couldn't case less' Cowen
Is a good communicator and all he inspires me to do is consider leaving the country.

flutered

we as a nation are so used to doing what we are/were told what to do that it will take a few more generations to get it out of our systems the develare mcquaid axis is still ingrained in a lot of minds

yoshytoshy

Kennys problem seems to be ,he has a front that he puts on in public.
Looking at richard bruton talking yesterday ,hes the opposite. He's straight talking and doesn't seem to be pre-occupied with issues.

I've never heard so many people use the word ,twat , to describe a person as I do kenny. That includes people who wouldn't have a bad word to say about anyone:D

No-one seems to have anything bad to say about bruton.

Liam Byrne

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Irish politics are shallow. Bertie was far from honest, but the old dears all voted him in because he (In my mother's words) had a lovely smile about him, and wasn't the worst of them.

Little did she know! :rolleyes:

Actually, interesting take on this in today's Irish Examiner where they talked about the Enda v George showdown.

While Bertie Ahern was famed for his man-of-the-people touch, his drive-by canvassing often seemed phoney and insincere at close hand, while his TV performances were carefully honed to radiate empathy and bonhomie

Which begs the obvious question; if journalists are aware of the fakeness, why don't they highlight it for those poor old dears who can't experience this "at close hand" ?

bmaxi

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I still think I'd prefer this to having someone spouting lies, PR spin, and bull****. and looking like they believe it.

So the OP does have a point.

It's unfortunately a sign of the standard of politics, however Obama had "charisma" and "goodwill" and it's only now that he's making any progress whatsoever.

So I'd gladly lose the charisma and the jokey con-man smugness and faux sincerity in return for someone who could actually do the job.

My point is, he's not believable and so doesn't inspire confidence. Ahern lied through his teeth for most of the time but he was able to pull it off and that's where the difference lies.
I'm not suggesting Kenny should follow in his footsteps, rather that until such times as he can convince people he is not lying through his teeth, he will never be a leader.

johnnyskeleton

Pappy o' daniel wrote: »

I keep hearing this over and over, but I ask myself he is lacking charisma compared to who exactly?

Richard Bruton. Bruton inspires confidence in the public because he's a plain talking, honest broker who knows business.

Kenny on the other hand is seen as a great organiser by those inside FG, but most people outside of FG don't see why Bruton is not the leader.

If FG wanted to actually win an election, I think Bruton as the parliamentary leader, Lee as the economic commentator and Kenny as the behind the scenes, keep it all together man would be a very powerful force.

But the current FG membership don't see it this way, and RB is too much of a gentleman to make a play for power.

But most of all, Kenny reminds people of the exact same gombeenism that FF stand for. Which is why they voted in FF in the last election - better the devil you know than the devil you don't as the saying goes.

jmayo

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Richard Bruton. Bruton inspires confidence in the public because he's a plain talking, honest broker who knows business.

Kenny on the other hand is seen as a great organiser by those inside FG, but most people outside of FG don't see why Bruton is not the leader.

If FG wanted to actually win an election, I think Bruton as the parliamentary leader, Lee as the economic commentator and Kenny as the behind the scenes, keep it all together man would be a very powerful force.

But the current FG membership don't see it this way, and RB is too much of a gentleman to make a play for power.

But most of all, Kenny reminds people of the exact same gombeenism that FF stand for. Which is why they voted in FF in the last election - better the devil you know than the devil you don't as the saying goes.

I want Bruton to remain in Finance because like lenihan is actually showing in ff, you need a very strong finance minister.
I believe Kenny allows Bruton do his thing and that could be the best for all of us if they were in government.
If Burton was to be leader and taoiseach then he would spend half his time smoozing up to people, going to meeting etc and who would look after finance ?

And please FFS forget Lee.
All the rumblings that have come out of FG in the past few days is that Lee produced nothing, nada in his 9 months.
Lee did not come out the other day with any revolutionary policies and say these are what they wouldn't listen to or take on board.
No he just said they never came and asked me.
Jeeze talk about sounding like a petulent child.

I actually believe that FG discovered that the great economics commentator and expert they had procurred in a blaze of glory was just the former, a commentator.
All mouth and no trousers so to speak.

But still people persist with the myth that George Lee is some genius.
What exactly has he done ?
Well along with another famous RTE whinger he blew open the story that banks were overcharging their customers.
Well done great piece of investigative journalism.

He predicted that the government were running the country's economy into the ground with the construciton bubble and basing public spending increases on the resulting transactional taxes.
Fair play at least he was honest and didn't just follow the vested interests like the bank's puppy economists, but it doesn't make him a fecking economics genius.
I and a lot of other posters around here predicted the same thing. :rolleyes:
Does that make us economic experts FFS ?

Anyway back to Kenny.
I do believe he is putting on a facade so to speak, because anyone that has met him personally will say he is more natural.

ROS123

Why the fup do most people especially Fine Gael people and most especially FG TDs refer to him as ENDA. Is this a deliberate ploy to make us like him more to give him some credibility. Everytime I hear it, I just get more annoyed. Is it just me or does this annoy anyone else. By the way he has as much charisma as a cardboard cut out of himeslef anf I think if Bruton doesn't take over quickly, like in the next few months, those other muppets will get back in.

jmayo

ROS123 wrote: »

Why the fup do most people especially Fine Gael people and most especially FG TDs refer to him as ENDA. Is this a deliberate ploy to make us like him more to give him some credibility. Everytime I hear it, I just get more annoyed. Is it just me or does this annoy anyone else. By the way he has as much charisma as a cardboard cut out of himeslef anf I think if Bruton doesn't take over quickly, like in the next few months, those other muppets will get back in.

It is probably copying what ff did with bertie and how all the goms in this country promptly fell in love with the piece of sh**.

Right so put Bruton, who I would reckon appears to be the best possible finance minister out of all parties, in as taoiseach and put who exactly in his place ?
Perhaps if in coalition then have Eamon Gilmore or Joan Burton as finance minister ?
Might as well just give it to jack o'connor while you are at it :rolleyes:

Those other muppets will only get back if people (possibly like you) complain that they won't vote for FG becuase you don't like Kenny, because he is not charismatic enough and they wouldn't fancy going drinking with him.

We had charisma man and look where we are, f***ing up sh** creek with a leaky canoe and choc ice stick as the only paddle.

I think the Loyds decision to pull BOS/Hailfax out summed up just how bad our banking outlook and economy really is.

My ideal is Richard Bruton as Finance minister in a stand alone FG government.
If he is leader of FG then that won't happen.

He might become leader sadly just to appease the muppets who would rather harp on incessantly about FG's leader, rather than the leader of ff who happens to be the leader of the government that supposedly govern the country.
This would be the man also who on a scale of 1 to 100 has caused 100 times more damage to this country than Kenny and the entire front bench of FG have. :mad:

Sleepy

I'm pretty sure that this can be done but forgive my knowledge of parliamentary law if it can't:

Make Bruton party leader and let him be the "face" of the election. Then position himself as Finance Minister with Kenny acting as Taoiseach.

As our current government show, we don't directly ellect a Taoiseach, the majority of the Dail does that when forming the government.

Sulmac

Sleepy wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that this can be done but forgive my knowledge of parliamentary law if it can't:

Make Bruton party leader and let him be the "face" of the election. Then position himself as Finance Minister with Kenny acting as Taoiseach.

As our current government show, we don't directly ellect a Taoiseach, the majority of the Dail does that when forming the government.

That's exactly the idea I had in mind, and it can be done. Any TD can, in theory, be Taoiseach - party leader or not. The Taoiseach then nominates the rest of the cabinet, including the Finance Minister.

Problem is, would this sit well with the electorate? Doubtful.

jmayo

Sleepy wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that this can be done but forgive my knowledge of parliamentary law if it can't:

Make Bruton party leader and let him be the "face" of the election. Then position himself as Finance Minister with Kenny acting as Taoiseach.

As our current government show, we don't directly ellect a Taoiseach, the majority of the Dail does that when forming the government.

Problem with that is Bruton would be party leader anyway.
It is that as much as being Taoiseach that soaks up the time.

He would have to listen to TDs/Senators complainging he would have to resolve issues between party members, he would be expected to go round on the chicken dinner circuit, that Lee appeared to hate so much, to keep the party workers happy.

Who would chair parliamentary meetings involving finance decisions ?
Could you have taoiseach telling his party leader who was finance minsiter what to do in event of parliamentary disagreements ?

The leader of the country would not be the leader of the largest party in government ?

I think something like this has been done somewhere else as compromise between coalition partners ?

Sleepy

A temporary 'con the electorate' move so, have them switch again after the election...

And I realise how bad that sounds but the fact of it seems to be that the Irish electorate are so stupid they need to be conned at this stage.

johngalway

Bruton needs to stay in finance, forget Taoiseach, finance is where it's at in the state we're in, we need the best fella for the job in there.

I don't think FG should change leader to be honest. We weren't all that far away from winning the last election, and remember the base that FG was coming from at that election :eek:

Another reason I don't want a change is due to the bloodletting in the past. Fcuks sake, we had enough of that, there's always going to be ups and downs in politics but things are going reasonably well for FG, FF are running scared, don't think so? Why no by election in Donegal then? That's been outstanding a while now.

I like Kennys theory of having a team. It's worked very well for FG since the past meltdown. It may work as well for the country if given a chance.

I don't like this "better the divil you know" crap. I know what FF are like, lie, cheat, steal, buy elections - even when they can't afford to, and knew it. I pay my tax and I vote, and I'm most definately prepared to give FG a chance at the helm.

Nothing and no one is perfect but Ireland is a funny place. If people don't like a person, they almost automatically regard them as **** at their job and talentless to boot.

I'm interested to see how Enda get's on with being himself, strange statement but some good might come of it.

Sulmac

johngalway wrote: »

Bruton needs to stay in finance, forget Taoiseach, finance is where it's at in the state we're in, we need the best fella for the job in there.

I don't think FG should change leader to be honest. We weren't all that far away from winning the last election, and remember the base that FG was coming from at that election :eek:

Another reason I don't want a change is due to the bloodletting in the past. Fcuks sake, we had enough of that, there's always going to be ups and downs in politics but things are going reasonably well for FG, FF are running scared, don't think so? Why no by election in Donegal then? That's been outstanding a while now.

I like Kennys theory of having a team. It's worked very well for FG since the past meltdown. It may work as well for the country if given a chance.

I don't like this "better the divil you know" crap. I know what FF are like, lie, cheat, steal, buy elections - even when they can't afford to, and knew it. I pay my tax and I vote, and I'm most definately prepared to give FG a chance at the helm.

Nothing and no one is perfect but Ireland is a funny place. If people don't like a person, they almost automatically regard them as **** at their job and talentless to boot.

I'm interested to see how Enda get's on with being himself, strange statement but some good might come of it.

I agree completely with you, particularly the bit highlighted in bold. Enda is completely right to keep emphasising his front bench "team", which includes the likes of Bruton in Finance and Reilly (a real doctor, shock/horror :eek:) in Health. You just need to read their policies to see they know what they're doing... or, what they would be doing if they were in charge.

johnnyskeleton

jmayo wrote: »

I want Bruton to remain in Finance because like lenihan is actually showing in ff, you need a very strong finance minister.
I believe Kenny allows Bruton do his thing and that could be the best for all of us if they were in government.
If Burton was to be leader and taoiseach then he would spend half his time smoozing up to people, going to meeting etc and who would look after finance ?

The leader has as much a role in dictating the economic decisions of a country as the finance minister. Just because cowen isn't doing anything and Lenihan is doesn't mean that this is how it normally is. Under bertie, cowen did what he was told to do and it was bertie who really controlled the purse strings.

Bruton as the leader could do what a proper governmental leader could do and say "sorry constituents, I'm too busy looking after the country to go schmoozing". Do you think Churchill spent half his time schmoozing and going to non-war related meetings?

And Kenny can still go around schmoozing, but you don't need to be the head of government to be a good schmoozer.

jmayo wrote: »

And please FFS forget Lee.
All the rumblings that have come out of FG in the past few days is that Lee produced nothing, nada in his 9 months.
Lee did not come out the other day with any revolutionary policies and say these are what they wouldn't listen to or take on board.
No he just said they never came and asked me.
Jeeze talk about sounding like a petulent child.

I'm not surprized FG came out with these lines - it was either gut Lee straight away, or Lee would destroy them. It's easy to say that Lee has produced nothing, but what has Bruton produced? In fact, as I recall he voted FOR the bank guarantee, which IMO is the single most disasterous decision made in the last 4 years.

It seems to me that Lee is hated by people because he is seen as an upstart. That makes it easy to characterise him as a petulant child and easily dismiss him.

jmayo wrote: »

I actually believe that FG discovered that the great economics commentator and expert they had procurred in a blaze of glory was just the former, a commentator.
All mouth and no trousers so to speak.

I see it as the opposite - he wasn't allowed to say what he wanted and had to spout the usual party lines. Clearly he felt uncomfortable saying things that would garner votes for the party and abstaining from saying what FG would actually do when in power i.e. cut the **** out of it, but that's the political game FG/FF play, and he didn't want to be part of that dishonesty.

jmayo wrote: »

But still people persist with the myth that George Lee is some genius.
What exactly has he done ?
Well along with another famous RTE whinger he blew open the story that banks were overcharging their customers.
Well done great piece of investigative journalism.

What has bruton done? FG have been floundering about trying to grasp on to any vague ideology. I see no reason not to take Lee at his word when he says that he was silenced by the FG machine.

jmayo wrote: »

He predicted that the government were running the country's economy into the ground with the construciton bubble and basing public spending increases on the resulting transactional taxes.
Fair play at least he was honest and didn't just follow the vested interests like the bank's puppy economists, but it doesn't make him a fecking economics genius.
I and a lot of other posters around here predicted the same thing. :rolleyes:
Does that make us economic experts FFS ?

No, but it gives you standing to critise the government, which is what Lee did at a time few else were doing it (especially not the opposition). Who exactly is saying he is an economic genious? Do you not see that pointing out what the government is doing wrong and suggesting what they should do instead is a quality needed in a politician? We don't need genii we need competent honest brokers. It would be nice to have a world class econominst in government, but it would be much more realistic to ask for just a safe pair of hands. Indeed, by the standard you have set for Lee that he be some kind of genius you are preventing anyone half way competent from getting into power because you seem to be saying that because Lee was not an internationally recognised economic visionary he was not worthy to be in government.

You have to look for the best in a bad lot I'm afraid, otherwise you end up with the same old shameless duffers.

jmayo wrote: »

Anyway back to Kenny.
I do believe he is putting on a facade so to speak, because anyone that has met him personally will say he is more natural.

So? If he's the funniest guy in the world or a drunken mess off duty it doesn't matter one whit. The important thing is how he does the job, and he does it awfully.

johnnyskeleton

jmayo wrote: »

He might become leader sadly just to appease the muppets who would rather harp on incessantly about FG's leader, rather than the leader of ff who happens to be the leader of the government that supposedly govern the country.

What you fail to recognise is that Kenny's lack of Charisma in the current climate is more to do with him being seen as as much a slippery gombeen as anyone in FF so it makes sense that people see him as possessing all the bad characteristics of FF with the additional element of the unknown.

flutered

fg seem to have a habit of loosing elections, ff seem to have a habit of winning them, it is not policys that seem to win them imo, the is the face the party presents, until fg get their heads around this they will continue to lead the opposition.