Over zealous guards at bus stops

LionelNashe

I witnessed a motorbike cop this morning in Dublin city centre giving a ticket to a private bus operator who was collecting his passengers from a bus-stop. The bit of the conversation I caught was the guard saying the ticket was for "parking in a bus lane". The driver protested a bit as he took the ticket and got on his bus. Then some passengers arrived and the guard wouldn't let them on. He just pointed the driver down the quays.

The bus wasn't blocking the lane, because he was at the start of the lane, with only kerb and footpath behind. There was nothing in front except several Dublin Bus buses that were parked-up with their engines switched off.

I don't know what's behind this. I would only be speculating. So here goes:
I wonder if the guards, or some of them, are generally hassling private operators, or this private operator, or if this was a one-off incident. I'd love to know if the guard in question was acting on his own initiative or if they are under instructions to keep a strict eye on the private firms.

Are there any Dublin Bus drivers on the forum who ever get tickets from guards?

amacachi

I know the Gardaí used to routinely target the Matthews Coaches with Speed cameras on the M1. This was before some of their vehicles, whether because they weren't mandated or they were allowed operate without them, had spped limiters.
Funnily enough though I've been on one Ulsterbus Goldliners on the N1 towards Newry and the speedo was reading between 75 and 80 mph, and was in the car another time with my dad at just under 120 kph and one of them overtook us.

one2one

Have seen a few DB drivers issued tickets, stopping on yellow lines, blocking a junction / yellow box.

HydeRoad

The Gardai used to target Aircoach on the M1 a few years ago too, while ignoring Bus Éireann who were doing exactly the same speed. The limit for coaches on the motorway at the time was an absurd 50mph. Coaches were rolling roadblocks at this speed, yet Bus Éireann it appears were immune from the harassment doled out to private bus operators.

Was the bus stopped precisely at a bus stop, or just in the general area of a bus stop or bus lane? It doesn't surprise me at all that a Garda would book a private bus operator for loading safely at a designated bus stop (which aren't the property of Dublin Bus by the way) while Dublin Bus can abandon a line of empty buses in a busy bus lane all day long, causing untold congestion and difficulty, with complete disregard.

I was threatened with arrest by a Garda some years ago. He actually threatened to take me away in a Garda car, leaving a bus full of passengers on the side of the road with the door open and the engine running! He did not take his mistake well when I pointed out to him that I was stopped correctly at a designated bus stop, licenced by the Garda commissioner for my bus service, complete with bus stop sign with my operator's logo. He hadn't seen the sign, and assumed it was a Dublin Bus stop. His reaction? A tirade of foul language and abuse, for which I made an official complaint.

A small coterie of Gardai used to regularly target private bus operators, at least a few years ago. I don't know of course, but it was hardly official policy. I'd say it was a solo run by a small few individuals. Perhaps it was some private sector / public sector jealousy, doing their bit to protect the public sector bus driver's job by running the privates off the road. You know what some people are like. But who polices the police?

sesna

HydeRoad wrote: »

But who polices the police?

Garda Ombudsman Commission which replaced the absolutely useless Garda Complaints Board.

The behaviour of that garda is a disgrace. All it does is turn people off them and similiar type nonsense experiences I have had make me feel very hesitant about co-operating with gardai or having any engagement with them.

LionelNashe

HydeRoad wrote: »

Was the bus stopped precisely at a bus stop, or just in the general area of a bus stop or bus lane?

He was in the bus lane, but maybe three feet shy of the bus shelter. Based on previous mornings/evenings, I would say that he had driven into the spot at 5 minutes before the hour, and reversed back a few feet to be out of the way while he waited for the departure time, and for the passengers to get on. He wasn't obstructing access to the lane, because he was right at the start of the lane with a kerb behind his back wheels.

Its the double-standard that makes no sense. The lanes on Eden Quay and Aston Quay, and Marlborough street, for example, are in permanent use as as parking spaces by Dublin Bus. Not that I have a problem with that. Its just that the private guy gets a ticket for pulling in for 5 minutes or less.

Run_to_da_hills

I know one private coach driver in Limerick that was asked by a plain clothes Garda to move on because he stopped tried to let off passengers on a clearway. He told the guy to f***k off and mind his own business because he didn't know he was a cop. Ended off getting a fine plus a public order summons. He got away with it in the end.

Cookie_Monster

Sure there's no point fining DB or BE. Just moving money from one arm of the state to the other.

Sounds like a bizarre situation thoug. Was he not entitled to use that particular bus stop perhaps. Ie cheekily using a DB bus stop for no DB services?

LionelNashe

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Sounds like a bizarre situation thoug. Was he not entitled to use that particular bus stop perhaps. Ie cheekily using a DB bus stop for no DB services?

If that's the case, i.e. that the bus stops can only be used by DB, then that's a hugely unfair and uncompetitive rule. It would be bizarre, but maybe that is what is going on.

KC61

LionelNashe wrote: »

If that's the case, i.e. that the bus stops can only be used by DB, then that's a hugely unfair and uncompetitive rule. It would be bizarre, but maybe that is what is going on.

That is my understanding of the legal position.

Each operator must have their own bus stop - daft I know but that is the legislation - this will I am sure be updated once the NTA find their feet.

Victor

Each must only operate from their own bus stop according to their licence, but bus stops can be shared, which is a matter for the Garda.

KC61

Victor wrote: »

Each must only operate from their own bus stop according to their licence, but bus stops can be shared, which is a matter for the Garda.

In other words the same roadspace can be used provided each operator has a separate bus stop pole.

I'm presuming this is the AMC bus from outside USIT on Aston Quay where they have no bus stop?

Cookie_Monster

Victor wrote: »

Each must only operate from their own bus stop according to their licence, but bus stops can be shared, which is a matter for the Garda.

This is something that should be done. Quickly and easily.

For example there are places where you have a finnegan, DB and Aircoach stop all within 3 feet of each other which is a bit silly. In locations like this they should just have a DB stop with Plates attached for Finnegan and Aircoach, like the way they have BE & DB stops in some places.

KC61

LionelNashe wrote: »

He was in the bus lane, but maybe three feet shy of the bus shelter. Based on previous mornings/evenings, I would say that he had driven into the spot at 5 minutes before the hour, and reversed back a few feet to be out of the way while he waited for the departure time, and for the passengers to get on. He wasn't obstructing access to the lane, because he was right at the start of the lane with a kerb behind his back wheels.

Its the double-standard that makes no sense. The lanes on Eden Quay and Aston Quay, and Marlborough street, for example, are in permanent use as as parking spaces by Dublin Bus. Not that I have a problem with that. Its just that the private guy gets a ticket for pulling in for 5 minutes or less.

Eden Quay, Aston Quay and Marlborough Street are bus stands as well as bus termini, as are Parnell Square West, Parnell Street, Hawkins Street, and opposite Pearse Street Garda Station for example. Every bus timetable has to have a bit of flexibility built into the schedule to account for unforseen delays in traffic etc. Hence you will see buses laying over between journeys.

Dublin Bus did incidentally try to remove both the 78a and 79 termini from Aston Quay but local councillors in Ballyfermot kicked up a huge rumpus and effectively nobbled the idea.

LionelNashe

KC61 wrote: »

Eden Quay, Aston Quay and Marlborough Street are bus stands as well as bus termini.....

What's a bus stand? Is it an area with some type of legal designation where DB can park legally but private buses can't?

(I'm not trying to argue - I hope my tone isn't coming across that way - I am just trying to understand if the guard was acting on the basis of some technicality or anomaly that exists in the law)

KC61

Dublin Bus have historically used streets as termini/layover areas and as such have what are termed "grandfather rights" to use them - i.e. they inherited them.

For example, Marlborough Street has a bus stop area painted out all along the street with several Dublin Bus stops placed there. It is effectively a set down stop only, and is somewhere where buses can wait until their next departure.

There are no private bus stops there and an operator would have to apply to the garda/city council to put a stop in place there and use that area.

The point is that AMC have no physical bus stop on Aston Quay and that's why I would guess that the garda issued the driver with a ticket.

Any operator needs garda approval before putting stops in place and using a location to pick up/set down passengers.

LionelNashe

KC61 wrote: »

Any operator needs garda approval before putting stops in place and using a location to pick up/set down passengers.

Well, that explains it. There is only a DB stop at the location in question alright. I remember hearing a government minister a couple of years ago complaining about a morning bus service operating from Dalkey(?) to the airport without approval, and the owner saying on the radio that they would have preferred to have permission but that the process was a bureaucratic nightmare and they had gotten fed up waiting.

You mentioned the NTA finding their feet - it sounds like we definitely need that to happen.

AlekSmart

Was it an Alan Martin Coaches (AMC) vehicle then ?

If so,like much else in Ireland,ther may well be a bit more to it......:rolleyes:

Victor

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Sure there's no point fining DB or BE. Just moving money from one arm of the state to the other.

The Road Traffic Act primarily applies to drivers. So if a bus is caught speeding or illegally parked, it is the driver who pays the fine.

If however its an operational bus issue under the Road Transport Acts its for the bus operator / licence holder to sort out.

By your reckoning, the ESB should never pay Bord Gáis for the gas that the ESB uses in its power stations, after all, but are essentially owned by the state.

Del2005

LionelNashe wrote: »

He was in the bus lane, but maybe three feet shy of the bus shelter. Based on previous mornings/evenings, I would say that he had driven into the spot at 5 minutes before the hour, and reversed back a few feet to be out of the way while he waited for the departure time, and for the passengers to get on. He wasn't obstructing access to the lane, because he was right at the start of the lane with a kerb behind his back wheels.

Its the double-standard that makes no sense. The lanes on Eden Quay and Aston Quay, and Marlborough street, for example, are in permanent use as as parking spaces by Dublin Bus. Not that I have a problem with that. Its just that the private guy gets a ticket for pulling in for 5 minutes or less.

He could have been ticketed for not correctly parking in a marked bus stop.

LionelNashe

AlekSmart wrote: »

Was it an Alan Martin Coaches (AMC) vehicle then ?

If so,like much else in Ireland,ther may well be a bit more to it......:rolleyes:

I saw the same bus this morning, and, no, its not an AMC bus.

BT!

LionelNashe wrote: »

If that's the case, i.e. that the bus stops can only be used by DB, then that's a hugely unfair and uncompetitive rule. It would be bizarre, but maybe that is what is going on.

commercial companies have to pay the local council to erect their equipment on pavements, this includes commercial private bus companies, they have to pay to erect a bus stop, so the companies that use DB or BÉ bus stops are avoiding that payment, any criticism of DB or BÉ in this instance is unfair. outside of Dublin there are multi national bus companies stopping at BÉ bus stops minutes before a BÉ bus is due, this doesn't offer the consumer a choice - this is piracy, this is what is bizarre and the NTA are against this, they have the interest of the consumer. This predatory behavior ruined public transport in the UK

antoinolachtnai

Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann are also commercial entities. They are part of a commercial state enterprise, CIÉ.

You don't have to pay anything to erect a bus stop in Dublin City.

What exactly are the NTA against? When did they say this?

Victor

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You don't have to pay anything to erect a bus stop in Dublin City.

Do you not have to pay for a street furniture licence or are bus poles exempt?

You do need planning permission for bus shelters and you definitely need to pay for communication junction boxes.

antoinolachtnai

All those other good things have to be paid for, but not bus poles in my experience (in Dublin City).

bmaxi

As one who is often critical of the Gardaí for not doing their job, I feel I have to applaud this particular Garda. Too many people just do what they like, without consideration for the law or other road users. If enough fines are handed out to these people they will eventually see the light.

BT!

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann are also commercial entities. They are part of a commercial state enterprise, CIÉ.

You don't have to pay anything to erect a bus stop in Dublin City.

What exactly are the NTA against? When did they say this?

i know here in the peoples republic, commercial private bus companies have to pay to put up a bus stop or street furniture, as they'll put buses on routes they intend to profit on, the majority of CIÉ bus services are non commercial they are a public service so they are not charged to erect bus poles. it's only the expressways that are commercial.
the NTA will award a licence with the consumer in mind, not as is the case now with commercial companies running a bus minutes ahead of a CIÉ bus, this is not offering a choice, 2 buses going the same way at the same time, with buses racing to get to the bus stop, that's piracy, they've learned from the stupidity of UK bus market

antoinolachtnai

Well, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann are commercial bus companies too. They are also private in the sense of being private limited companies. They are not open to public scrutiny.

They operate the 'public service obligation' route on the basis of a commercial contract with the NTA. This is a wholly commercial arrangement. The local authority is extremely unwise to subsidise the state companies by offering free facilities if that is what they are doing. The PSO services are not a charity.

Are these PSO routes that multinational operators are competing with? I find that very hard to believe but I suppose it is possible.

Why would you think the NTA would license routes on a basis any different from what the Department did previously? From the limited amount I have heard, their plans are quite similar. If anything, there will be more competition of the type you complain of between licensed routes, not less, as a result of the new EU regulation.

BT!

"The PSO services are not a charity"
not in so many words, but BÉ are in financial crisis, they state subsidy is reduced, the fuel rebate is gone, the annual fares increase didn't happen, they're running PSO routes where they're not even making the drivers wages. see http://www.buseireann.ie/news.php?id=831&month=Jan

"Are these PSO routes that multinational operators are competing with? I find that very hard to believe but I suppose it is possible"
every major town, nenagh, mallow, drogheda, tramore, dundalk, charleville bascially everywhere outside the pale.

"Why would you think the NTA would license routes on a basis any different from what the Department did previously? From the limited amount I have heard"
Noel Dempsey said they will award licences with the consumer in mind, ie no more running minutes ahead of existing operators, this is not offering a choice of departures or fares, this is just piracy pulling up at stops where people are waiting for a different company, check out http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0125/transport.html, this is a major multinational operator, a Scottish company funded in Singapore trying to put an indigenous operator out of business. again this all takes place outside of the Pale, for example 3 companies serve Portlaoise at the same time all at the existing Bus Éireann bus stop, all this is is people get on the first bus that arrives, this isn't consumer choice, this is low paid drivers racing to bus stops. the list of towns where this happens is endless. let the multinationals in but the NTA will regulate them, so as to give people a choice.

antoinolachtnai

BT! wrote: »

"The PSO services are not a charity"
not in so many words, but BÉ are in financial crisis, they state subsidy is reduced, the fuel rebate is gone, the annual fares increase didn't happen, they're running PSO routes where they're not even making the drivers wages. see http://www.buseireann.ie/news.php?id=831&month=Jan

In 2008, the subsidy, as a proportion of revenue, and per-passenger was higher than it ever was before. 2009 will probably be another record year for the subsidy. Of course the subsidy has to be reduced. Bus Eireann is carrying fewer passengers. You can't keep increasing the subsidy when the company is becoming less and less attractive to customers.

Anyway, it is not true to say that BE is in a financial crisis. It has a strong balance sheet, and the amount of tangible assets went from 120m to 150m in 2008. It has around 60 million euros on deposit with CIE, which should be as good as cash. It has no debt to speak of. It has contracts for services in place until 2015. In many respects, BE is in a stronger financial position than it has ever been.

Why would they expect to make the driver's wages? That's why it's called a 'public service obligation' route. It doesn't make money out of the farebox. It's not supposed to. That's why NTA pays them to operate it.

Everybody in the industry had the fuel rebate removed, not just CIE. DB and BE raised their fares to compensate for this.

"Are these PSO routes that multinational operators are competing with? I find that very hard to believe but I suppose it is possible"

every major town, nenagh, mallow, drogheda, tramore, dundalk, charleville bascially everywhere outside the pale.

You are saying that in Drogheda, there is a private operator competing with a PSO service? I find that hard to credit. Who operates this service? What route does it compete with?

Noel Dempsey said they will award licences with the consumer in mind, ie no more running minutes ahead of existing operators

When did he say this? He has not told NTA of this view, so far as I know, although I stand to be corrected. He has not given NTA any policy direction whatsoever about this from what I understand.

BT!

"8 September 2009
Mr. Noel Dempsey TD, Minister for Transport announced today that he has published the Public Transport Regulation Bill 2009. The primary focus of this new Bill is to place the bus passenger at the centre of a new, transformed national bus licencing regime and to replace the current outmoded and inadequate regime that has applied to the authorisation of bus routes for some 77 years"

There is a Dundalk based operator competing with BÉ route 100 & 100x, Matthews.ie

BT!

"Anyway, it is not true to say that BE is in a financial crisis. It has a strong balance sheet, and the amount of tangible assets went from 120m to 150m in 2008. It has around 60 million euros on deposit with CIE, which should be as good as cash. It has no debt to speak of. It has contracts for services in place until 2015. In many respects, BE is in a stronger financial position than it has ever been"

"It is clear to the Court that the current financial circumstances of the Company are perilous"

the Labour Court included this statement in a judgement on BÉ on 23.11.09, http://www.labourcourt.ie/labour/labour.nsf/lookuppagelink/HomeRecommendations

your comments / critism of CIÉ is not justified, all the proper people are making appropriate decisions, it appears they are adhering to rules / regs unlike multinational competitors.
try and get a €1 fare on Scottish Citylink ???

antoinolachtnai

Noel Dempsey may well have told the media this, but this is not what he told NTA. The effect of the legislation and the regulation is quite the opposite of what you expect.

The 100x is an express service. It is not PSO. It was instituted after the Matthews service and only after that service began to get some traction. Bus Eireann began the racing, not vice versa. It was illegal for it to do this. The 100 is quite a different route.

Bus Eireann is a very wealthy company which has run out of cash and is trying to find ways to get cash back from its employees to avoid having to liquidate assets. It is not underresourced. You are suggesting that Bus Eireann should be given some sort of special treatment because it is a pauper. It isn't. (Even if it were, why should local authorities prop it up?)

If CIE has such good decisionmakers and Bus Eireann is in such a poor financial state, why doesn't BE close its loss-making Galway Expressway route? Why does it bother with the 100X when there is another bus on the route already? Why does CIE it not sell DB's supposedly enormously profitable airport and tour services?

There are plenty of one-pound and five-pound fares on Scottish Citylink. http://www.citylink.co.uk/supersingles.php

BT!

There are plenty of one-pound and five-pound fares on Scottish Citylink. http://www.citylink.co.uk/supersingles.php

it sounds like you have an interest in this industry, you even suggest Noel Dempsey is confused !!! so after this i'm giving it a rest.

it's the Scottish Citylink Galway - Dublin, Galway - Cork services you should try getting a €1 fare on
the Irish & Scottish subsidiaries of this Singapore company use the same PR company, more or less the exact same websites. £'s instead of €'s. before there is any more confusion - Yes they are the same companies this is from their official website http://www.citylink.ie/archivenews091202.php

It'll be Interesting to see how the Courts in Galway deal with this matter on March 8th, or are they confused as well !!!!

J_Dublin15

BT! wrote: »

it's the Scottish Citylink Galway - Dublin, Galway - Cork services you should try getting a €1 fare on

Plenty of them available, just had a look on 14th April plenty there.

antoinolachtnai

BT! wrote: »

it sounds like you have an interest in this industry, you even suggest Noel Dempsey is confused !!! so after this i'm giving it a rest.

Yes, I do have an interest, one that is well known and declared. You seem to have a good knowledge of CIE operations yourself and to be very familiar with the PR operations of various companies.

I certainly never implied anything about anybody's mental state.