abandon all hope and vamoose

Voodoo_rasher

from letters page, Irish Times, today





"Drowning in our nation's sorrows

Madam, – As a one-time alcoholic and an inmate of St Ita’s, Portrane may I offer my observations of the Irish psyche.
As a nation we are inherently incapable of changing either ourselves or our nature of government, of which our leaders are only too well aware. They realise that the only thing we are likely to do as a people is to go the pub, get drunk and bitch until incoherent about the situation, instead of doing something, anything, to change it. Some of us don’t even have to go to the local to do this.
As a result of this knowledge, they are not only quite prepared to take atrociously bad decisions, such as on Nama, in order to preserve their status quo, but to flaunt their dominance, and our powerlessness to do anything about them, as we regularly witness.
Our mindset is still the same as it was under 700 years of foreign rule, when, incidentally, we were really treated no worse than we are today, by our present generation of Irish political masters. – Yours, etc,
LIAM POWER, "


'charlie hungerford got one thing right, during all these decades gone by: "Plenty more gas in the corrib lads" he'd say

Amhran Nua

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

Our mindset is still the same as it was under 700 years of foreign rule, when, incidentally, we were really treated no worse than we are today, by our present generation of Irish political masters.

Except for the way the population still hasn't recovered to the level it was at 150 years ago.

Honestly I can see why people might want to give up, throw up their hands and surrender, but I have nothing to say to those people except this country is our home, and we can make of it what we will with a little patience, courage, and foresight.

seamus

The unfortunate thing is that the Irish still have this tendancy to assume that everyone in the country has the same experiences and the same world view as they have.

Ironically he says that we only give out about things and never makes changes and then goes on to talk about 700 years of foreign power, failing to notice the means by which that "foreign rule" ended.

There has to be some German word for this - attempting to expose or explain a psyche and in the same breath actually demonstrating that you posses that psyche yourself.

Just because the letter's author never made any attempt to change anything in his life, doesn't mean that it's impossible to make changes.

The fact that he considers the government to be "rulers" demonstrates that he takes no personal responsibility for what he's failed to do in his life and instead ascribes it to some innate "Irishness".

Amhran Nua

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

yeah, does this new entity do anything for the lopsided, predominantly rightist spectrum we have here? or is amhran nua simply a cracked cd/ gramaphone record

Take a good look at the policies in the sig there, and make up your own mind. Probably the most pertinent ones to your question are in political refom.

AlekSmart

Ironically he says that we only give out about things and never makes changes and then goes on to talk about 700 years of foreign power, failing to notice the means by which that "foreign rule" ended.

It could be argued that "Foreign" rule ended more because of the "Foreign Rulers" preoccupation with other world events than any great Irish popular uprising.:rolleyes:

seamus

AlekSmart wrote: »

It could be argued that "Foreign" rule ended more because of the "Foreign Rulers" preoccupation with other world events than any great Irish popular uprising.:rolleyes:

Nevertheless, people had attempted to make changes. If everyone had accepted British rule, they would never have considered Ireland an irritant in the first place.

Voodoo_rasher

not fully true; what could they hav bn pre-occupied with externally during their brush with dirty urban guerrilla warfare here )?

(goin to read up some more, in time)

Voodoo_rasher

do the ideals, inspirations of A.N derive Only from Irish figures past and gone, and no foreign heroes; if so, yr motivation or credo (?) is very home-spun and possibly inward looking

DrumSteve

AlekSmart wrote: »

It could be argued that "Foreign" rule ended more because of the "Foreign Rulers" preoccupation with other world events than any great Irish popular uprising.:rolleyes:

EU/ UK... its all the same thing really:pac:

Amhran Nua

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

do the ideals, inspirations of A.N derive Only from Irish figures past and gone, and no foreign heroes; if so, yr motivation or credo (?) is very home-spun and possibly inward looking

Most of the policies are based on successful implementations in other countries, in some cases taken to the next logical step, as with the education policy. Again, I'd say to take a good look - we're Irish and proud of that, and not afraid to take advantage of that for the betterment of the country (see cultural policy), but the approach we take is eminently practical, in my opinion. Another bonus, if you don't like a policy, let us know why, and if your reasons are good enough, we'll adjust what we're saying, to further the philosophy of a transparent meritocracy - but the reasoning would want to be very compelling.

conorhal

I just do not get that attitude. There are peoplethat get laid off here, moan that they can't find a job in their specify industry and then sit on the dole feeling sorry for themselves for a while, and yet as soon as the self same individuals leave the country they're willing work 5 jobs at a time, from building work during the day to bar wark at night, and then start their own business on the side! These same folks then piss and moan about 'ol Ireland while failing to recognise that they would have been just as successful by showing the same drive and flexibility had they done the same thing here.

hiorta

AlekSmart wrote: »

It could be argued that "Foreign" rule ended more because of the "Foreign Rulers" preoccupation with other world events than any great Irish popular uprising.:rolleyes:

Ah, this quote sort of illustrates the point, in using euphemisms that encourage more of the same.

'Foreign' they certainly were, but more accurately they were English Terrorists and Ireland was just one of a great many such victims..

(see the world still revolves)

Voodoo_rasher

find the quality of life wherever is superior, s'pose its little wonder

AlekSmart

These same folks then piss and moan about 'ol Ireland while failing to recognise that they would have been just as successful by showing the same drive and flexibility had they done the same thing here.

Actually conorhal,they would not be allowed to exercise those items (legally) in Ireland as it`s currently structured.

Currently,the Irish Governments decision to embrace and impliment the EU Working Time Directive at it`s most stringent level means that a citizen may not work more than 48Hrs a week averaged over 17 weeks with equally restrictive minimum rest periods.

This working time is reckoned for the individual over any employments.
So a person working a 40 hr full-time job may not take on ANY other work above 8hrs a week average.
The rest day requirements also mitigate against people making any effort to improve their station by working at other employments.

Interestingly both Employer and Employee leave themselves open to prosecution under these new laws and the penalties upon conviction are quite harsh and include jail-time !!

Yes indeed one can see just how this country is going to become competitive and full of the work ethic with nonsensical stuff like this wrapped tightly around the workforce`s necks.

At least the "Terrorists"(UK) Government insisted upon various voluntary "Opt-Out" clauses being incorporated into THEIR version of the WTD,whilst our democratic minded Politico`s rushed to nail their colours to the "Best New Europeans" mast.....:o

Brussels Sprout

After graduating I worked in an office in Ireland and then several years later I worked in a similar office doing the same job in New Zealand. I couldn't get over the difference in attitude between the two groups. In terms of age/sex/education level/job type the groups were very similar but the atmosphere was so much more positive in New Zealand.

In the Irish company people would often be grumbling and moaning about everything despite it being the peak of the boom and if ever management tried to implement any strategies or ideas they would be met with ridicule in the lunch room.

By contrast the kiwis had a real can-do atmosphere and everyone was upbeat all of the time. In the beginning I was moaning about little things like I would have back home but when I did that people would point out the positive aspects of whatever it was that I was giving out about. There also seemed to be an attitude regarding politicians that they were doing their best and it was a tough job and giving out about them was just lazy.

Finally the kiwi work ethic was much harder. People generally came in early and left late and there was less general dossing around the office.

All in all I was pretty shocked that it was so different. I did miss the old bitching and moaning when I was there but having been back now for 7 months I must say I miss that kiwi positivity. I'm not saying that we need to go around with an artificial good sense of cheer but we do need to be more upbeat as a nation.

I'm not sure if there is a link between attitude and health but the people I worked with in New Zealand also had a much healthier lifestyle than the people I had worked with in Ireland. This encompassed everything from their mode of transport (loads of cyclists), their diet, smaller number of smokers and their weekend hobbies. Everyone seemed to be really in to personal development as well which is a trait that is definitely lacking in Irish people.

I'm not trying to knock Ireland. I love this country and I chose to return here rather than live in New Zealand because I couldn't imagine settling anywhere else. However, we need to grow up as a nation in a lot of respects.

Amhran Nua

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

There also seemed to be an attitude regarding politicians that they were doing their best and it was a tough job and giving out about them was just lazy.

Its worth noting that New Zealand has half the number of politicians per capita for half the pay of the lads in Ireland.

Brussels Sprout

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

you came back?!

from my vantage pt, thats not onward and upward.

as quoted in the indo few days back, ire no longer a country for young ppl.

its all very well marrying an irish gal (familiarity if not a little passe) , settling down in a pokey provincial area or new high density suburb, shackled or emotionally blackmailed to take a life-expectancy mortgage or else face summary divorce (egged on by in-laws) and then noticing that yr kids' childhood mirrors all you disliked about your own ch.hood!

better diet in NZ, i bet. Dublin Ikea serve up tasty boiled potatoes, yet i observed everybody was opting for chips, lol!

All true, but it was for family reasons rather than lifestyle reasons. You miss out on a lot when you live on the other side of the world. If for some reason my family disappeared then I'd be gone in a flash.

jmayo

seamus wrote: »

Nevertheless, people had attempted to make changes. If everyone had accepted British rule, they would never have considered Ireland an irritant in the first place.

Ehhh did you ever wonder why it took so long to get rid of them ?
Remember in 1916 the rebels were actually not supported by the majority and it was only after the executions that people got behind SF/IRA.

The problem is we have always been easily divided and sections can be bought off by the rulers so that they can remain in power.
The Brits did it and ff are adept at doing it.
They make sure a good section are looked after, it doesn't matter if some others are in the sh**, because the me féiners will ensure that the status quo does remain.
How else could anyone explain how we allowed such a decrepit health system develop despite the riches at the governments disposal ?
How else could anyone explain why we allowed such a leader as bertie exist and flourish ?

Some other nations, other countries, I believe have a much more national pride, I would say a nationalist fervour, where they give a damm about their country.
Oh yeah we do have national pride, but sometimes it only seems to appear in relation to a football pitch.

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

After graduating I worked in an office in Ireland and then several years later I worked in a similar office doing the same job in New Zealand. I couldn't get over the difference in attitude between the two groups. In terms of age/sex/education level/job type the groups were very similar but the atmosphere was so much more positive in New Zealand.

...
Finally the kiwi work ethic was much harder. People generally came in early and left late and there was less general dossing around the office.

All in all I was pretty shocked that it was so different. I did miss the old bitching and moaning when I was there but having been back now for 7 months I must say I miss that kiwi positivity. I'm not saying that we need to go around with an artificial good sense of cheer but we do need to be more upbeat as a nation.

I'm not sure if there is a link between attitude and health but the people I worked with in New Zealand also had a much healthier lifestyle than the people I had worked with in Ireland. This encompassed everything from their mode of transport (loads of cyclists), their diet, smaller number of smokers and their weekend hobbies. Everyone seemed to be really in to personal development as well which is a trait that is definitely lacking in Irish people.

I'm not trying to knock Ireland. I love this country and I chose to return here rather than live in New Zealand because I couldn't imagine settling anywhere else. However, we need to grow up as a nation in a lot of respects.

Oh why did you come back ?
I know you mentioned family, but trust me with the way things are going you would be finding more of them joining you.

BTW I think the work ethic is inherited from their Scots presbyterian ancestors, but that is another discussion.

PS was it North or South island ?

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Its worth noting that New Zealand has half the number of politicians per capita for half the pay of the lads in Ireland.

Well spotted.
A unicamerl system with no upper house in parliament and only about 120 odd MPs.
Nice parliament building as well, less sh** floating around it.

Voodoo_rasher

and NZ has the same land area (or is it popl size ?) as us ? : /. its all a little disheartening

Brussels Sprout

jmayo wrote: »

PS was it North or South island ?

Wellington but I've also lived in Christchurch. There's more of a presbyterian/anglican/conservative feel about Christchurch whereas Wellington seemed to be more open minded.

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

and NZ has the same land area (or is it popl size ?) as us ? : /. its all a little disheartening

Same population-4 times larger


NZ is by no means perfect though. The wages are rubbish in comparison with Australia, it's really expensive to travel abroad, central heating and double glazed windows are not present in most houses, mobile phone charges are scandalous, broadband is pathetic, domestic violence is a huge problem, gang culture is more prevalent and a lot of people can't hold a decent conversation.
I believe that it is their very isolation that is the root of a lot of these issues and it has bred them into a nation of inventive, positive minded people. For so long they were on their own and had to make do with the tools at their disposal. This manifested itself into a 'let's do it' rather than a 'let's talk about doing it' attitude that persists to this day.

jmayo

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Wellington but I've also lived in Christchurch. There's more of a presbyterian/anglican/conservative feel about Christchurch whereas Wellington seemed to be more open minded.

Same population-4 times larger

Yeah noticed that about Chjristchurch more churches apparent.
Still both cities appeared nice from the touristy perspective anyway.

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

NZ is by no means perfect though. The wages are rubbish in comparison with Australia, it's really expensive to travel abroad, central heating and double glazed windows are not present in most houses, mobile phone charges are scandalous, broadband is pathetic, domestic violence is a huge problem, gang culture is more prevalent and a lot of people can't hold a decent conversation.
I believe that it is their very isolation that is the root of a lot of these issues and it has bred them into a nation of inventive, positive minded people. For so long they were on their own and had to make do with the tools at their disposal. This manifested itself into a 'let's do it' rather than a 'let's talk about doing it' attitude that persists to this day.

Yeah true it does appear backward in terms of development in comparison to here in some ways.
Also one huge notable difference was the age of the cars on the road which gave an indication of living standards or then again maybe just common sense not going into debt to buy latest show yourself off BMW.
Also noticable the standard of homes, especially out in the country areas in what would be considered rich farming areas.
Over there the farms are more productive and sustainable, but they haven't spent their money building Dallas southfork lookalike homes or buying fancy new jeeps.

Ehh gang culture and domestic violence are high here too.
It is often we don't hear about the second and the first is put up with so long as it doesn't affect those outside of certain areas.

Voodoo_rasher

FURTHER TO yr party's introduction:

"In an effort to move away from the "pub culture", a lifelong entertainment, pastime and and social club system will be set up"

the Vintners concern exert a lot of influence over the collective mindset as you well know. its quite a strong Lobby to tackle as the cafe-bars initiative found to its cost!

alcohol sponsorship of concerts, sport events, comedy festivals, shirt sponsorships is also something that has got to be taken into mind. its all-pervading.

Brussels Sprout

jmayo wrote: »

Yeah true it does appear backward in terms of development in comparison to here in some ways.
Also one huge notable difference was the age of the cars on the road which gave an indication of living standards or then again maybe just common sense not going into debt to buy latest show yourself off BMW.
Also noticable the standard of homes, especially out in the country areas in what would be considered rich farming areas.
Over there the farms are more productive and sustainable, but they haven't spent their money building Dallas southfork lookalike homes or buying fancy new jeeps.

Yeah it's amazing to see the wooden houses with corrugated iron roofs even in the major cities like Auckland and Wellington. I think personal expenditure is down as reflected by the cars and houses but public expenditure is a lot higher based on the public parks that are all over all the major cities, the standard of the roads all over the country and public transportation system within the urban areas.

Another interesting difference is how successful their Olympic teams generally are across a wide range of sports including sailing, rowing, cycling, athletics and triathlon. And that's before you even consider their highly successful rugby union and league teams as well as their decent cricket and football teams. None of this is any fluke. Every city and town on both islands has facilities for a range of different sports and the children are encouraged from a young age to try a wide collection of activities. An added bonus of this is that you see far fewer teenagers smoking and less overweight adults.

peasant

As a foreigner living here for quite a while now, I would offer two main basic factors that influence the Irish psyche:

The Brits and the weather

No, seriously.
800 years of occupation have made it a national passtime to stick two fingers to the man, cheat and trick the system to your personal advantage wherever you can and shape the interpretation of the law to suit.
But as the history of British oppression is a complicated one (most of the oppressing was actually comitted by Irish people (informers, middle men, agents, the socially upward)) this isn't a "fight the power" kind of "resistance" that united one people against another, but in fact it turned into the ducking and diving "cute hooring" that we are all so familiar with.
Only lately the British "elite" has been replaced with the cuter indigenous hoors.
But there is no solidarity at the bottom against those at the top ...because there never was ...and who knows, if your just cute enough, you could make it to the top yerself ...feck the neighbours.

Well ..and the weather ...it's cold most of the time and damp. This puts a damper (literally) on communal activities and on outdoor life in general. There are no public areas to meet, no street cafes to mix and mingle, no benches in the street to sit and watch ...no feel-good factor. (sport being the only exception)
Instead you brood at home or drown your sorrows in the pub. All very well for complaining and scheming ...but not for "doing something".

There you have it ...the Brits and the weather, that's all that's wrong with this place

Brussels Sprout

peasant wrote: »

As a foreigner living here for quite a while now, I would offer two main basic factors that influence the Irish psyche:

The Brits and the weather

No, seriously.
800 years of occupation have made it a national passtime to stick two fingers to the man, cheat and trick the system to your personal advantage wherever you can and shape the interpretation of the law to suit.
But as the history of British oppression is a complicated one (most of the oppressing was actually comitted by Irish people (informers, middle men, agents, the socially upward)) this isn't a "fight the power" kind of "resistance" that united one people against another, but in fact it turned into the ducking and diving "cute hooring" that we are all so familiar with.
Only lately the British "elite" has been replaced with the cuter indigenous hoors.
But there is no solidarity at the bottom against those at the top ...because there never was ...and who knows, if your just cute enough, you could make it to the top yerself ...feck the neighbours.

Well ..and the weather ...it's cold most of the time and damp. This puts a damper (literally) on communal activities and on outdoor life in general. There are no public areas to meet, no street cafes to mix and mingle, no benches in the street to sit and watch ...no feel-good factor. (sport being the only exception)
Instead you brood at home or drown your sorrows in the pub. All very well for complaining and scheming ...but not for "doing something".

There you have it ...the Brits and the weather, that's all that's wrong with this place

I think there is a large element of truth in this.

God damn it-how can we change this?

Nehaxak

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

God damn it-how can we change this?

Get rid of the Green party and embrace global warming, in the vein hope it might give us a bit of sunshine.

That and a revolution by angry people, grrrr, arrgh and stuff, so there's something to watch on telly in the evenings when the sun goes down.

hiorta

The Brits? Who they?

Voodoo_rasher

no changing to it; both pretty 'inbuilt'. careful who you sup with.

(beware yr enemy but beware yr friend several times over as is said in the balkans..)

dan_d

We can change it but it will take several generations.
I always think it's amazing that Irish people go abroad, and are quite happy to fall in with the rules of whatever country it is - buy your metro tickets, pay your taxes, do everything right. Yet at home, it's considered a triumph to get a train journey with no ticket and not get caught, screw the system in any way possible, claim grants by understating your income.....what is that about????????Socially we're centuries behind the rest of Europe. We are still hung up on what the farmer next door gets compared to us, what the town done the road has compared to ours, what the next county is like and how it's worse than ours, and the more the next province loses out compared to us, the better.We are, in a word, parochial, and do not see the big picture. Our political parties are a prime example of this.

The British rule had a LOT to do with it. But it's no excuse whatsoever. We have excellent examples of systems that work in at least 5 major European countries, and we ignore them. We vaguely imitate Britain - which has huge social problems - and try to plough our own furrow, all the while trying to get the better of the next man.

Don't get me wrong - every country has it's good points and bad points. But the me-feinism that goes on around here is ridiculous. I love my country, but I can see it's bad points, and it's horribly frustrating to be honest. I think the country is being run by a bunch of crooks, who are only interested in their ratings and patting each other's backs. White collar crime needs to become a crime. Irish people need to learn to accept the responsibilities that go with all the rights they constantly demand.

I'm not holding my breath, and I expect to have to leave this year. Like I said - it's frustrating. And infuriating.

jmayo

peasant wrote: »

As a foreigner living here for quite a while now, I would offer two main basic factors that influence the Irish psyche:

The Brits and the weather

No, seriously.
800 years of occupation have made it a national passtime to stick two fingers to the man, cheat and trick the system to your personal advantage wherever you can and shape the interpretation of the law to suit.
But as the history of British oppression is a complicated one (most of the oppressing was actually comitted by Irish people (informers, middle men, agents, the socially upward)) this isn't a "fight the power" kind of "resistance" that united one people against another, but in fact it turned into the ducking and diving "cute hooring" that we are all so familiar with.
Only lately the British "elite" has been replaced with the cuter indigenous hoors.
But there is no solidarity at the bottom against those at the top ...because there never was ...and who knows, if your just cute enough, you could make it to the top yerself ...feck the neighbours.

Well ..and the weather ...it's cold most of the time and damp. This puts a damper (literally) on communal activities and on outdoor life in general. There are no public areas to meet, no street cafes to mix and mingle, no benches in the street to sit and watch ...no feel-good factor. (sport being the only exception)
Instead you brood at home or drown your sorrows in the pub. All very well for complaining and scheming ...but not for "doing something".

There you have it ...the Brits and the weather, that's all that's wrong with this place

Well said.
Some of us Irish still think that the system is some mythical entity run by someone else. Maybe they haven't copped on the Brits left ?
I often reckon that there are whole tranches of the coutnry where all the smart people either were unlucky to die or else emigrated.
What was left were the eejits and the cute connected hoors.
Just look at election results to prove this point.
Thus we are where we are today.

A lot of people seem to think that it is thus ok to screw the system, since "shure it's some one up there in Dublin and shure what the hell".
Except they forget the system is them, their families, their kids needing education, their granny needing a hip replacement, etc, etc.

Nehaxak wrote: »

Get rid of the Green party and embrace global warming, in the vein hope it might give us a bit of sunshine.

That and a revolution by angry people, grrrr, arrgh and stuff, so there's something to watch on telly in the evenings when the sun goes down.

Well down in Mayo I know a few people are hoping for the day when this global warming comes through and we have scorching hot summers wth Westport being the new St Tropez and freezing winters to go sking on Nephin.
But the fecking greens are going to ruin the whole thing the fe**ing killjoys.