Rumen Fluke Treatment

manjou

How did people manage before they came up with doseing stuff.For hundreds of years they farmed cattle and survived without doses.All could not have died from fluke and worms. Often wondered have we lost something on the management side of parisite control since all we have to do is inject or dose when we think there is a problem.Maybe livestock were more resistant.Just often wondered.

whelan1

manjou wrote: »

How did people manage before they came up with doseing stuff.For hundreds of years they farmed cattle and survived without doses.All could not have died from fluke and worms. Often wondered have we lost something on the management side of parisite control since all we have to do is inject or dose when we think there is a problem.Maybe livestock were more resistant.Just often wondered.

but sure zanil is out this years

greysides

manjou wrote: »

How did people manage before they came up with doseing stuff

Animal farming was less intensive so less of a build up.

And when they were affected badly animals died.

At least on some farms, it was expected that not all weanlings would make it through the summer.

Black Smoke

The hawlk wrote: »

I am afraid people are getting carried away with all this rumen fluke talk I have some of the wettest land in Ireland and I never dosed for it yet I have seen no cases of rumen on our farm ever

I'd say you are bang on the money:P

pakalasa

The hawlk wrote: »

I am afraid people are getting carried away with all this rumen fluke talk I have some of the wettest land in Ireland and I never dosed for it yet I have seen no cases of rumen on our farm ever

I thought it was a waste of money too, untill I had an animal waste away with it this year. People have had animals die from confirmed cases of this, so it is out there.

joejobrien

The hawlk wrote: »

I am afraid people are getting carried away with all this rumen fluke talk I have some of the wettest land in Ireland and I never dosed for it yet I have seen no cases of rumen on our farm ever

Your lucky if you havent. IMO the farming system,SR, buildup, etc are various factor that can be at work, ie long/short term production, land types rotation etc. You may have subclinical levels without knowing.Tests/ FC done on your herd? When one looses an animal(s) this can often be the first indication of a proplem. I would not agree that people are getting carried away with RF.
Talk to some of the LABS with reference to RF.
However I wish you continued success at your farming.:)

reilig

Dosing for rumen fluke to prevent the death of an animal is worst case scenario IMO. Its only in extreme cases that an animal will die - if an animal wastes away to nothing then it it probably too late to be dosing it - they may never recover.

I never dosed for rumen fluke until this year. I only did it on the advice of my vet who spoke to a group at the BTAP walk on my farm and he advised that every dung sample that he tested in this area from similar type of land to mine showed very high levels of Rumen fluke. He advised that there was a low risk of any animal dying from rumen fluke, but advised anyone with similar land to mine (Heavy wet land) that it would be in their interest to dose.

So why dose?

Basically you need to speak to your vet. If you need to test, then your vet can do it for you. If your vet is very familiar with your area then he might advise you, like mine did, to dose without testing.

I am glad that I dosed. I can see a very noticable increased thrive in all animals - both cows and weinlings. Animals have a much shinier coat. Dung isn't watery and scoured. Weinlings have done much better and I am very happy with the results.

So in this day and age when margins are tight and inputs are expensive, I feel that dosing was an economical choice. It gave me an edge over farmers who didn't dose - the meal, silage and straw that I am feeding my animals is going onto their backs instead of fattening rumen in their stomach.

In short, 99.9% of the losses caused by rumen fluke is unseen as only rarely will an animal waste away or die because of it.

poor farmer

reilig wrote: »

Dosing for rumen fluke to prevent the death of an animal is worst case scenario IMO. Its only in extreme cases that an animal will die - if an animal wastes away to nothing then it it probably too late to be dosing it - they may never recover.

I never dosed for rumen fluke until this year. I only did it on the advice of my vet who spoke to a group at the BTAP walk on my farm and he advised that every dung sample that he tested in this area from similar type of land to mine showed very high levels of Rumen fluke. He advised that there was a low risk of any animal dying from rumen fluke, but advised anyone with similar land to mine (Heavy wet land) that it would be in their interest to dose.

So why dose?

Basically you need to speak to your vet. If you need to test, then your vet can do it for you. If your vet is very familiar with your area then he might advise you, like mine did, to dose without testing.

I am glad that I dosed. I can see a very noticable increased thrive in all animals - both cows and weinlings. Animals have a much shinier coat. Dung isn't watery and scoured. Weinlings have done much better and I am very happy with the results.

So in this day and age when margins are tight and inputs are expensive, I feel that dosing was an economical choice. It gave me an edge over farmers who didn't dose - the meal, silage and straw that I am feeding my animals is going onto their backs instead of fattening rumen in their stomach.

In short, 99.9% of the losses caused by rumen fluke is unseen as only rarely will an animal waste away or die because of it.

My understanding of the test for rumen fluke is that the test results only indicate, whether there is ,or not, a presence of rumen fluke in the sample.
It gives no indication as to the level of infection.

reilig

poor farmer wrote: »

My understanding of the test for rumen fluke is that the test results only indicate, whether there is ,or not, a presence of rumen fluke in the sample.
It gives no indication as to the level of infection.

Animals
grazing on pasture that is heavily contaminated with rumen fluke larval cysts will usually have all ages of
rumen flukes in their digestive tracts, and thus have an egg count. In very severe cases observed by the Irish
Regional Veterinary Laboratories, large numbers of immature rumen flukes have been found in the faeces.

From the AHI document linked in previous posts.

The sentence in bold suggests that the fluke egg count found in the dung is directly linked to the level of infection.

just do it

poor farmer wrote: »

My understanding of the test for rumen fluke is that the test results only indicate, whether there is ,or not, a presence of rumen fluke in the sample.
It gives no indication as to the level of infection.

reilig wrote: »

From the AHI document linked in previous posts.

The sentence in bold suggests that the fluke egg count found in the dung is directly linked to the level of infection.

Lads, ye're both right!
You can expect normal animals to have rumen fluke eggs in their faeces. Where there is a chronic heavy infestation you can get a large burden of rumen fluke eggs. This may indicate subclinical infestation which can lead to some lack of thrive.In acute severe cases where you get a large enough build up of immature rumen fluke in the gut you can get large numbers of immature rumen flukes (i.e. flukes themselves, not eggs laid by mature flukes) in the faeces.

eddiek

what did ya dose them with reilig and what do ya dose for worms with?thanks.

greysides

Given that while Rumen fluke are not a new parasite to Ireland, by any stretch of the imagination, but ARE new in causing disease, we are all learning about them. Sometimes the hard way. Building up the ground swell of experience that already exists for Liver fluke and other diseases............

I would say that the most likely parasite to kill an animal at the moment, would be Rumen fluke. Because it can, and has.

bob charles

greysides wrote: »

Given that while Rumen fluke are not a new parasite to Ireland, by any stretch of the imagination, but ARE new in causing disease, we are all learning about them. Sometimes the hard way. Building up the ground swell of experience that already exists for Liver fluke and other diseases............

I would say that the most likely parasite to kill an animal at the moment, would be Rumen fluke. Because it can, and has.

most definitely agree, allot of misinformation in the pages of this thread, I will also say in my own case on dry limestone land that lungworms next in line of importance in the fight against respiratory diseases.

poor farmer

Should I dose this years calves for rumen fluke.
The are mostly friesans born feb mar apr
I have lots of heavy and some flooded land

greysides

poor farmer wrote: »

Should I dose this years calves for rumen fluke.
The are mostly friesans born feb mar apr
I have lots of heavy and some flooded land

General Options:

1. Yes, if epidemiological factors are known to be present.

2. Yes, if faecal samples are positive for eggs.

3. Yes, if after normal dosing animals continue to show signs attributable to RF.

4. Yes, if happier to do it than be left to worry about it despite no immediately obvious compelling reason.

5. Any combination of the above.

6. No.


IMO, you fit into group 1.

limo_100

if dosing weanlings with leavafas diamond would they need to be giving ivomec as well or will the leavafas cover worns as well as fluke??

greysides

...

Levafas Diamond contains levamisole and oxyclozanide. Zanil only has the flukicide and no levamisole.

Levamisole hits nematodes and is fine as a summer dose where type II (inhibited) worms are not a necessary target. However, at this time of the year they need to be hit or they will 'awaken' and cause problems in the Spring. So, that part of the product is not suitable.

Oxyclozanide gets trematodes/fluke, so it hits both liver fluke and stomach fluke.
With liver fluke it will only be effective against adult fluke- about 12 weeks in the animal and residing in the bile ducts. Depending on the timing of dosing, it could be considered as marginally better than water (IMO).
With stomach fluke it is effective against both immatures in the gut and adults in the rumen.

Basically were it not for it's activity against stomach fluke it could be discounted as a winter dose.

However, it's recommended dosage rate gives the animal more oxyclozanide than the Zanil rate (15ml/kg v. 10mg/kg) and this would be no harm for the elimination of Stomach fluke.

But it leaves us in the awkward situation of needing three different active substances to adequately cover the range of parasites.

Up until recently there were no single products on the market that would properly cover Liver fluke and worms at housing. I would have recommended using separate doses for each, choosing the dose by what best suited the target parasite.

Now with combinations of ivermectin/closantel and moxidectin/triclabendazole available this is no longer the case. However, even these combinations do not cover Stomach fluke.
So, you are still left with having to separately cover it.

jocotty

My brother did all his cattle with Zanil, after loosing the 14.

He is wondering when they will be due another dose for it?

He's not a man to worry too much, but have not seen him this worried in a long time!

Anyone got any ideas?

Jo

pakalasa

14, Holy Cow! What did the Vet tell him to do?
What age, breeed were they?

jocotty

pakalasa wrote: »

14, Holy Cow! What did the Vet tell him to do?
What age, breeed were they?

Vets were no good. Told him it was lack of feedin, but he knew well they were only talkin sh#te. . . . So he gave up on d vets. Twas the lab that told him wat it was for the finish. I was at home again today, and they still dieing. Up to 16 now . . . But they new ones dieing just an after effect . . They were damaged some how it the fluke gone from them
. Never saw anything like it.
Yearlings. All breeds- friesans and b blues mostly. Awfull stuff.

greysides

Efficacy is generally variable with a single dose of oxyclozanide but when two doses of 18.7 mg/kg were given three days apart, a less than 99 per cent efficacy was achieved against both immature and mature paramphistomes (Rolfe and Boray, 1987).

The French use Zanil at a double dose (20ml/kg) when bringing the cows in Dec and a clean-up dose 2 months later, or, wait till Feb and then give one double dose.

jocotty

greysides wrote: »

Efficacy is generally variable with a single dose of oxyclozanide but when two doses of 18.7 mg/kg were given three days apart, a less than 99 per cent efficacy was achieved against both immature and mature paramphistomes (Rolfe and Boray, 1987).

The French use Zanil at a double dose (20ml/kg) when bringing the cows in Dec and a clean-up dose 2 months later, or, wait till Feb and then give one double dose.

thanks for that - but a bit confused now. So, do you think my brother can dose the yearlings twice with the Zanil, at just 3 days appart?

would that be 10ml/kg each time?

just do it

jocotty wrote: »

thanks for that - but a bit confused now. So, do you think my brother can dose the yearlings twice with the Zanil, at just 3 days appart?

would that be 10ml/kg each time?

Yes it is recommended to dose twice 3 days apart.

1chippy

jocotty wrote: »

Vets were no good. Told him it was lack of feedin, but he knew well they were only talkin sh#te. . . . So he gave up on d vets. Twas the lab that told him wat it was for the finish. I was at home again today, and they still dieing. Up to 16 now . . . But they new ones dieing just an after effect . . They were damaged some how it the fluke gone from them
. Never saw anything like it.
Yearlings. All breeds- friesans and b blues mostly. Awfull stuff.

horrible situation to be in. i hope it ends there for him. i was talking to a couple of farmers along the shannon and they are seeing a serious amount of it this year.

greysides

jocotty wrote: »

thanks for that - but a bit confused now. So, do you think my brother can dose the yearlings twice with the Zanil, at just 3 days appart?

would that be 10ml/kg each time?

Especially where he's had problems I think it would be sensible to go for the double dose.

Personally, I'd go with Levafas so the dose would be more like 15mg/kg.

They are likely up end up '****ting through the eye of a needle' though.

There is a certain degree of risk management to be done with these treatments.

Neither Zanil or Levafas are licensed for use against RF in this country so doses and guidance are not given with that in mind. International, and experimental, experience is such that the recommended dose rates while in excess of manufacturers guidance, are safe. Though you do have a 'projectile effect'.

Once you go 'off label' with your treatments you are on your own regarding consequences.

So you have to bear that in mind when dosing. However, if those are the consequences OF DOSING, the consequences of NOT DOSING seem rather more dramatic.

Animals in dire condition are likely to suffer badly with the higher rates- both the disease and it's correction pushing them in a scouring/dehydrating/weakening direction. They might be best given the lower, 10 mg/kg, rate and the interval increased to allow them some chance at recovery before giving them a higher, 15mk/kg, rate at the next dose.

While Internationally this is not cutting edge stuff, for us with little prior experience we are (as I alluded to before) building up a ground swell of experience in RF, so we have to balance recommendations for healthy/routine dosing with treating sick animals. Some common-sense is needed.

Your brother may well need to look at the condition of his stock and see how they are now and decide if they have improved enough to tolerate another dose or whether he should allow the first dose to work a little longer before the second dose.

Or, if there is no improvement he may have to decide to ahead regardless of any potential consequences and cross his fingers. Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

I don't know if the three day separation has a pharmaceutical basis or is based on empirical evidence. But if they are improving but are judged not yet strong enough for a second dose, having witnessed the effect of the first dose, I'd be inclined to wait until they are judged fit.

This is an excerpt from a published article on the treatment of Rumen Fluke by Australian authors.

When a combination product of oxyclozanide and levamisole was used, oxyclozanide at 18.7 mg/kg reduced parasite numbers in the small intestine, abomasum and rumen-reticulum by 61 to 96.1%, 50.0 to 92.6% and 56.5 to 98.1%, respectively.

When 2 doses were given 3 days apart, oxyclozanide was 99.9%, 100% and 100% effective, respectively, in the above organs, and produced improvement in clinically affected calves.



This treatment elicited transient diarrhoea.

So there is a worthwhile benefit to the second treatment.

Black Smoke

Treated on Saturday with levafas diamond. Reading the label, it said cattle "may experience, a slight softening of the faeces"!!
Well what an understatement! Absolutely went through them like a vendaloo after a feed of bad Guinness! ****ting pure water.

Better this morning though!

just do it

Black Smoke wrote: »

Treated on Saturday with levafas diamond. Reading the label, it said cattle "may experience, a slight softening of the faeces"!!
Well what an understatement! Absolutely went through them like a vendaloo after a feed of bad Guinness! ****ting pure water.

Better this morning though!

Probably means they needed it? I doubt they'd scour if they'd no rumen fluke

Black Smoke

just do it wrote: »

Probably means they needed it? I doubt they'd scour if they'd no rumen fluke

I actually wondered if that was the case?

bob charles

just do it wrote: »

Probably means they needed it? I doubt they'd scour if they'd no rumen fluke

it doesnt mean they have rumen fluke, every animals dung after levafas diamond is water

Black Smoke

bob charles wrote: »

it doesnt mean they have rumen fluke, every animals dung after levafas diamond is water

Well three days later all have dried up fine, but at least half of them are coughing in spurts. I guess the levamisole ingredient in the levafas diamond is shifting some residual lung worms.
That is even though, the lot had been dosed twice this summer with Endospec 10 SC, and got one shot of Bimectin. I would have thought lung worm wouldnt have been an issue with this bunch!

Must seriously look at IBR vaccination on next years calves before turnout. Never vaccinated up to now.

pakalasa

Black Smoke wrote: »

..Must seriously look at IBR vaccination on next years calves before turnout. Never vaccinated up to now.

I'm thinking the same. I'll have evrything covered then, apart from Johnes, which I think might be next on AHI's agenda.

just do it

pakalasa wrote: »

Question - Can older cattle build up a resistance to rumen fluke. I've only ever seen it at home with younger adult cattle.

greysides wrote: »

Regarding immunity, I believe there is a build up of immunity among older animals but how complete it would be is another thing. Immunity is generally a 'relative', rather than an 'absolute' feature.

greysides wrote: »

Given that while Rumen fluke are not a new parasite to Ireland, by any stretch of the imagination, but ARE new in causing disease, we are all learning about them. Sometimes the hard way. Building up the ground swell of experience that already exists for Liver fluke and other diseases............

I would say that the most likely parasite to kill an animal at the moment, would be Rumen fluke. Because it can, and has.

My experience with RF indicates cattle build-up resistance with age. Brief history of me and RF. In 2009 I bought 10 freshly calved heifers in the Spring that were grazing land that had being flooded a number of times over that winter by the river it lead down to. 2 cows died in 2009 despite veterinary advise at the time, lab testing and a number of treatments for everything. In 2010 I'd one of this batch slowly deteriorating, chronic scour that temporarily improved with various treatments (liver fluke, stomach worms, Abs for Salmonella, Copper - deficiency common around here). Then I started ringing around a bit and someone suggested RF. Remember this only came onto everyones radar around that time and was not considered to cause fatalities. Another good vet I know rubbished the idea if was RF in 2009 but has subsequently changed his mind. So the 2010 cow despite all best efforts was dying. I gave her Levafas Diamond and that nearly killed her. Then ~3days later I noticed she looked ever so slightly better (you know when you get that hunch they've turned the corner). A day or two later she dried up and never looked back (although she required a further dose some time later). I then dosed the others and noticed an improvement.

2012 and 2 years later. Dosed all the cattle for liver fluke during the summer and decided to leave off dosing for RF and monitor to see how they went. I've bought in 4 first calvers this year and in Oct felt they were not thriving as well as they should, with one or two of them getting quite poorly. So I dosed these ones, and only these ones, with Levafas Diamond. They all scoured and one in particular went off her feed for a day. They've all improved subsequently and I'm confident they had clinical RF.

I'm not happy with my batch of weanlings despite regular ivermectin injections so they are next up for RF treatment, hopefully this weekend.

The main issue I see with RF is there is still no conclusive diagnostic test. I've picked out the quotes above as I've been meaning to reply for a while but just now getting the time. My experience (along with my vet) leads me to believe that cattle do build-up resistance to RF. Given this, and despite the knowledge that I know it is on my farm, I am slow to dose unless I feel it is warranted. This year has been particularly wet and I've a wet farm with a rich habitat for fresh water snails that act as the host for RF. I believe the bought-in cattle in 2009 brought it onto the farm and now it is here to stay. But a bit like red water, it something I need to be aware of on my farm and deal with it accordingly.

just do it

On reading back through this thread I noticed LC posted in 2010 but not recently. You'd miss him around the place, it's always good to have someone who sturs things up a bit with a well researched argument:).

blue5000

just do it wrote: »

On reading back through this thread I noticed LC posted in 2010 but not recently. You'd miss him around the place, it's always good to have someone who sturs things up a bit with a well researched argument:).

Was thinking the exact same thing myself today, even though he upset a few ppl from time to time, you do miss his contributions.

whelan1

blue5000 wrote: »

Was thinking the exact same thing myself today, even though he upset a few ppl from time to time, you do miss his contributions.

mmmmmmmmmm not really

pakalasa

Maybe it's the de-hydration, throught scouring, that kills the badly infected & weakened animals. Maybe no harm give them a re-hydration therapy when dosing them, if you are worried dthey might not be able to handle the Zanil.
I say MAYBE, in that I don't know for certain.

mf240

Would you be better to dose them on a full or empty stomach, do you know what I mean if the rumen was full of nice hayledge would the effect be less severe? am I raving again?

Edit just seen moovans post in the other thread seems hes of a similar opinion.

jocotty

1chippy wrote: »

horrible situation to be in. i hope it ends there for him. i was talking to a couple of farmers along the shannon and they are seeing a serious amount of it this year.

thanks lads for your help.

we dosed them for the second time, 3 days later - and they were all new cattle in the morning!

relief!

pakalasa

I was talking to a Vet today and got talking about Rumen Fluke. He said that they are finding a lot of cases where no eggs are being detected in the dung, yet the animal would be heavly infested with immatures in the rumen. Cattle showing all the typical signs like wasting away. Advice they are giving is to dose anyway (when the symptoms are there), up to 3 times in same cases.
They are seeing a lot of it this year because of the wet summer.
More or less backs up what people have been saying on here all along.

whelan1

so what is the youngest age to treat from?

pakalasa

Don't know. He did say that there were a lot of cases of weanlings having it this year. Also that some farmers were experiencing having to deal with fluke for the first time this year too.

deerejohn

mf240 wrote: »

Would you be better to dose them on a full or empty stomach, do you know what I mean if the rumen was full of nice hayledge would the effect be less severe? am I raving again?

Edit just seen moovans post in the other thread seems hes of a similar opinion.

We would always dose cows on an empty gut(before feeding in morning), supposed to get a far better kill as better contact with gut wall. Our diets always have a lot of straw so that probaly helps on the scour, and "probaly" the animals are not heavily infected to start with.

If i didnt have a diet feeder i would try and put animals on the driest feed available for 2 days, dose and keep them on it for 3/4 more days.

We housed 70 spring born heifer calves about 18 days ago, they wer`nt picking up as they should after 10 days with some having a scour of sorts.
These would have been well dosed throughout the "summer" with both oral doses and invermectin. Last friday week we dosed the batch with levasvas diamond, no great change during the week to the eye, i was off yesterday(friday) and when i saw them today the transformation was unreal, the best calves in the group(3pens) did`nt stand out anymore and only 1 or 2 calves looked to be struggling as opposed to the whole batch.

This has the potential to be a nightmare of a winter if problems such as this are not addressed early:eek:

saranac1

deerejohn wrote: »

We would always dose cows on an empty gut(before feeding in morning), supposed to get a far better kill as better contact with gut wall. Our diets always have a lot of straw so that probaly helps on the scour, and "probaly" the animals are not heavily infected to start with.

If i didnt have a diet feeder i would try and put animals on the driest feed available for 2 days, dose and keep them on it for 3/4 more days.

We housed 70 spring born heifer calves about 18 days ago, they wer`nt picking up as they should after 10 days with some having a scour of sorts.
These would have been well dosed throughout the "summer" with both oral doses and invermectin. Last friday week we dosed the batch with levasvas diamond, no great change during the week to the eye, i was off yesterday(friday) and when i saw them today the transformation was unreal, the best calves in the group(3pens) did`nt stand out anymore and only 1 or 2 calves looked to be struggling as opposed to the whole batch.

This has the potential to be a nightmare of a winter if problems such as this are not addressed early:eek:

Quite a lot of information on here which is great

I am going to house 70 weanlings in both slatted and straw bedded sheds this week.

All weanlings have been giving paramectin at 7 wks intervals since feb 2012

I intend to give each Weanling rispoval3 injection

Due to the wet weathered ground that they have come in off this year do you recommend I give them levastas diamond as well or wait and give them this upon turnout in march????

I just feel they are not achieving good weights at the moment....

whelan1

for those of you who dose milkers at drying off with fasinex or endospec etc and dose with zanil at calving , do you dose the heifers as well as the cows at calving, iykwim