Some East Galway Schools Ghettoized

donkey balls

ah terry you poor thing i cant beleive they wont speak english to you:rolleyes: i had the same problem while in south america so i bought a book teaching me the basics(spanish) to get by.

JONJO THE MISER

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Dirty Fordiners, first they took our Jobs then eat our swans and now there children are taking our schools.

I don't think that the swaneaters children have any real problems with English.

Ruen

Deleted User wrote: »

I think that if there is a school that finds itself with a large number of non-english speaking pupils, then they really need to have separate classes for these pupils, it's most unfair for the "local" pupils to be held back.

Many of these children could easily have been born here but because of the culture of their families only the men have good english the women stay at home and keep house and have children - this only applies to some immigrants, the remainder will learn English themselves and bring up their children with some English.

No child should be in mainstream education until their language skills are sufficiently good enough to enable them to learn the subject without comprehension being a limiting factor.

How do you know what their cultures are, how many families teach English to their children and how much English they teach them if they do?

Seperating pupils is not the correct approach as that will cause serious issues further down the line, they should provide the children with any language supports they need.

dsmythy

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Many immigrant families wouldnt speak English at home even if some/all of them are fluent in it and there is no way legally or practically they could be made to.

Well maybe they should think it to be in the best interest of their children that they do speak English in the home? Or is it easier to run around blaming others?

ascanbe

Terry wrote: »

Indeed.

Anyway, I'm currently in Bhutan and the whole society is against me.
Nobody will speak my native language.

Should I
A. Integrate into the society and learn their language so that I can function as a member of their society?
B. Whine like a little bitch and scream racism because nobody here will go out of their way to learn a foreign language* just to accomodate me?


* Dear pedants. 99% of Irish people speak English as a first language. Therefore; STFU and get back into your outdated Republican trench.

Given that this thread relates to those who have just entered primary school, i'll assume, given that you see your position as a legitimate comparison, that you're only 4 or 5 years of age.
In which case your English is incredibly impressive; i'm sure you'll have no problem learning the language of your new homeland and will swim rather than sink.

yellowellie

yellowellie wrote: »

How can this work if the other children in their class don't have English as a first language either?

The same way that it works in just about every language immersion school in the world. There's a French school a few minutes from my house and guess what, all the pupils speak French! Shock horror! Even those from non-Francophone backgrounds. It makes it easier for kids in their peers are native speakers of their target language, but it isn't necessary. I also taught at a British school in Spain where 95% of the kids were Spanish and they had all their lessons in English. In most cases, the parents hadn't a word of English. It really isn't that complicated.

How many Irish Primary School teachers do you think can speak Polish, Chinese, Lithuanian, Indian, African languages or any other foreign languages?
Children are not taught English through their first language. They learn English through English. It just takes longer when the children are not immersed in a class with English speaking children.

:rolleyes:

Eh, you can quit rolling your eyes at me. I don't know how it works in every part of the country, but where I'm from, they do indeed have native Chinese, Brazilian and Lithuanian teachers in schools with a large percentage of one of these nationalities. They work alongside the regular ESL teachers who teach English through English. What point are you making anyway?

ascanbe

ascanbe wrote: »

Given that this thread relates to those who have just entered primary school, i'll assume, given that you see your position as a legitimate comparison, that you're only 4 or 5 years of age.
In which case your English is incredibly impressive; i'm sure you'll have no problem learning the language of your new homeland and will swim rather than sink.

You ARE aware that children find it much, much easier to learn new languages than adults? 4 or 5 years of age is the ideal time to have to learn a new language.

IrishManSaipan

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

They were probably having a liquid lunch over in Buswell's.

They will probably claim expenses.

Ruen

Ruen wrote: »

How do you know what their cultures are, how many families teach English to their children and how much English they teach them if they do?
.

I lived for a number of years in an area that was rapidly becoming "ghettoised" in England, when I first moved there, most were English, then Irish, Indian, Pakistani etc in that order.
When I left (selling to an Indian Family) The English were in a minority!

So I have some first hand experience.

Ruen wrote: »

Seperating pupils is not the correct approach as that will cause serious issues further down the line, they should provide the children with any language supports they need.

It's far better to get the elephant sorted out right at the start as in get their English up to speed asap rather than drip feeding it over several years and dimminishing the teaching of all the class.

IrishManSaipan

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

it appears racism is alive and well in East Galway.

100% of students entering the school last September required language support.

Hold your horses there, horse. Id actually blame the "anti racism" quangos on this bad boy. Two years ago, Brian Hayes suggested that immigrants who have problems with the English language should attend specialised language classes until their English skills were sufficient. Of course this was deemed racist and he had to backtrack. Now, it appears he was bang on the money. Ah well. The "anti racism" will be apologising in 3,2,1......:pac:

FINE GAEL was last night accused of using racist language as its call to “segregate” immigrant children with poor English provoked an explosive row.

Government Minister Martin Mansergh attacked the move as “irresponsible” as teaching unions and anti-racism groups also reacted angrily.

FG education spokesman Brian Hayes drew the heavy fire after he urged the separation of immigrant children having difficulty with English from mainstream classes until their language skills improved.

Unions branded the move “discrimination” and Mr Mansergh warned against Fine Gael using such loaded imagery.

“The word segregation has very negative connotations. It brings to mind images of racial segregation and a time where racism was not only condoned but was an everyday reality in many parts of the world.

“I would be disappointed if Deputy Hayes is consciously using emotive language for assumed political advantage and if he is speaking for the Fine Gael party in that regard,” said the minister.

Chairman of the country’s largest teachers union INTO, John Carr said dividing children would deprive immigrant pupils of contact with other students which could spur their learning.

He dismissed the Fine Gael idea as “discriminatory, inequitable and deeply flawed”.

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2008/08/20/story70253.asp

IrishManSaipan

The problem is easily solved. Let the state provide six months of English lessons to children without English as a first language, say from January until June, before they start Junior Infants.

Granted, this will cost a fair wad of cash, but the present method is clearly not working and costs the state some 100 odd million euro for language support.

How the phuc can teachers educate students who cannot speak English?

IrishManSaipan

Steel Pump wrote: »

Thats all very well and good, but how much can they bench press?

I was lifting steel like you wouldn't believe back in primary and racism was never an issue!! too busy pumpin

Tell the truth, you were too busy pulling.

Euro_Kraut

Terry wrote: »

Indeed.

Anyway, I'm currently in Bhutan and the whole society is against me.
Nobody will speak my native language.

Should I
A. Integrate into the society and learn their language so that I can function as a member of their society?
B. Whine like a little bitch and scream racism because nobody here will go out of their way to learn a foreign language* just to accomodate me?

There is always C.

C. The Govt of Bhutan recognizes your williness to learn the language and will subsidize some classes for you. Meanwhile your children will be offered extra tuition in the school to help them catch up with the others. They do this as their is a benefit for them when your and your kids learn the language as quickly as possible and as well as possible.

BluesBerry

So with the Language support teachers in the schools help the non english speaking children How long will they last with all these cutbacks a lot of SNA's didn't get their contracts renewed this year
I would have thought they would have been a priority with special needs children in mainstream school.
How long until the language support teachers are cut back what state will the schools be in then if they cut back on SNA's

IrishManSaipan

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Hold your horses there, horse. Id actually blame the "anti racism" quangos on this bad boy. Two years ago, Brian Hayes suggested that immigrants who have problems with the English language should attend specialised language classes until their English skills were sufficient. Of course this was deemed racist and he had to backtrack. Now, it appears he was bang on the money. Ah well. The "anti racism" will be apologising in 3,2,1......:pac:

Yes, teach them English first then educate the children!

Euro_Kraut

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

The problem is easily solved. Let the state provide six months of English lessons to children without English as a first language, say from January until June, before they start Junior Infants.

Granted, this will cost a fair wad of cash, but the present method is clearly not working and costs the state some 100 odd million euro for language support.

How the phuc can teachers educate students who cannot speak English?

As it stands children as entitled to 2 years of English as Second Language classes in secondary school.

I'm not sure there are HUGE problems. The odd student will never learn because they are not very good at languages (dyslexia can be a issue) and are not academically minded. Just look at the amount of Irish people who cannot speak Irish after 13 years of tuition. Granted immersion in a language should aid the process but as anyone who has gone abroad to a non anglophonic country and spent me in the education system will tell you - academic fluency is hard to obtain.

Morlar

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

There is always C.

C. The Govt of Bhutan recognizes your williness to learn the language and will subsidize some classes for you. Meanwhile your children will be offered extra tuition in the school to help them catch up with the others. They do this as their is a benefit for them when your and your kids learn the language as quickly as possible and as well as possible.

Option D is that local kids in Bhutan who make up 10% of the class will have their educational progress completely ground to a halt while teachers go into overdrive trying to teach non natives the language (from a starting level of about zero).

IrishManSaipan

BluesBerry wrote: »

So with the Language support teachers in the schools help the non english speaking children How long will they last with all these cutbacks a lot of SNA's didn't get their contracts renewed this year
I would have thought they would have been a priority with special needs children in mainstream school.
How long until the language support teachers are cut back what state will the schools be in then if they cut back on SNA's

They were cut in the last budget.

Should the parents not have to contribute at all at all?

Euro_Kraut

BluesBerry wrote: »

How long until the language support teachers are cut back what state will the schools be in then if they cut back on SNA's

Their already have been cutbacks. The student teacher ratio for TEFL was increased last year. I know of one school in Meath the had 2 specialized TEFL teachers last year and lost one this year on account of the cuts backs.

Its short sighted and we will end up paying the cost down the road in terms of poorer integration.

Euro_Kraut

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

There is always C.

C. The Govt of Bhutan recognizes your williness to learn the language and will subsidize some classes for you. Meanwhile your children will be offered extra tuition in the school to help them catch up with the others. They do this as their is a benefit for them when your and your kids learn the language as quickly as possible and as well as possible.

A good solution if the country in question can afford such a programme, perhaps a special tax code to leach back the cost of the education over the lifetime of the immagrant.
In fact it may work out cheaper than having certain social service documents translated into about 50 languages at regular intervals. If you cant speak the language you can't claim! Quickest way to ensure linguistic conversion.

IrishManSaipan

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

As it stands children as entitled to 2 years of English as Second Language classes in secondary school.

Should the state not provide the classes before the child attends primary school? If you cannot speak English by secondary school, theres not much hope for ya. Young children absorb information like a sponge. The longer you leave the english lessons, the more difficult it becomes.

Also, the longer teachers spend teaching english, the more it holds back the other children. Everyone is effected.

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

I'm not sure there are HUGE problems.

The schools principals would disagree with you there.

Morlar

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Their already have been cutbacks. The student teacher ratio for TEFL was increased last year. I know of one school in Meath the had 2 specialized TEFL teachers last year and lost one this year on account of the cuts backs.

Its short sighted and we will end up paying the cost down the road in terms of poorer integration.

I think we should make it a compulsory part of the asylum process that immigrants attend english language lessons while their case is working it's way through the system. If you made proficiency in english as the final hurdle to citizenship the levels would go through the roof.

IrishManSaipan

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Their already have been cutbacks. The student teacher ratio for TEFL was increased last year. I know of one school in Meath the had 2 specialized TEFL teachers last year and lost one this year on account of the cuts backs.

I have a TEFL cert. Is that all you need to work as a language support teacher? :eek:

Euro_Kraut

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Should the parents not have to contribute at all at all?

Presumably they pay taxes like every other parent.

Some might get help outside of school too and pay privately. Not all could afford that though.

Euro_Kraut

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

I have a TEFL cert. Is that all you need to work as a language support teacher? :eek:

Nope. You need a HDip (+degree) too.

IrishManSaipan

Deleted User wrote: »

A good solution if the country in question can afford such a programme, perhaps a special tax code to leach back the cost of the education over the lifetime of the immagrant.
In fact it may work out cheaper than having certain social service documents translated into about 50 languages at regular intervals. If you cant speak the language you can't claim! Quickest way to ensure linguistic conversion.

......and expect to see the country flooded with english language students. Pick up a bit of work, and get free english lessons.Earn as you learn, so to speak. Meanwhile the half a million on the dole become restless.

Euro_Kraut

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

The odd student will never learn because they are not very good at languages (dyslexia can be a issue)

Tell me about it! I have mild dyslexia and have difficulty understanding English (my mother tongue) sometimes, but despite that have learned a bit of French, Dutch, German and currently learning Irish.

It can be done, just needs more time, something that can't be done in a class with other pupils learning the principal subject of the class.

IrishManSaipan

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Presumably they pay taxes like every other parent.

Which goes on little things like running the country. Love this attitude, they pay taxes, ergo they should be entitled to everything and anything.

Notice I said a contribution, is that too much to ask? A subscription or donation, if you will.

IrishManSaipan

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

I have a TEFL cert. Is that all you need to work as a language support teacher? :eek:

There are different types of TEFL cert. I would assume a DELTA qualification would be enough to work as a language support teacher.

Euro_Kraut

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Should the state not provide the classes before the child attends primary school? If you cannot speak English by secondary school, theres not much hope for ya. Young children absorb information like a sponge. The longer you leave the english lessons, the more difficult it becomes.

Some children only move to Ireland when they are 14/15. It these that I am referring too. Not sure what the set up in Primary school is but obviously the later the child moves the bigger the challenge.

Also, the longer teachers spend teaching english, the more it holds back the other children. Everyone is effected.

Again, not sure in Primary school, but in Secondary the foreign kids get ther English support lesson while the others are doing Irish. Therefore the impact is minimized.

I agree though that in Primary a teacher cannot be expected to teach a new language to some kids and maths to others at the same time.

The schools principals would disagree with you there.

They are hardly going to come along and say they don't need more funding. There is a need for reform, investment etc. but I am not sure we are at the stage (like in Germany) where kids are going all the way from Kindergarten to Leaving Cert and still have no English.

IrishManSaipan

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

......and expect to see the country flooded with english language students. Pick up a bit of work, and get free english lessons.Earn as you learn, so to speak. Meanwhile the half a million on the dole become restless.

lol!

I didn't say free! they pay it back in extra taxes over the next few years, anyway the types that are likely to try this trick would be non EU and would be stopped by other means.

IrishManSaipan

[quote=[Deleted User];64433751]There are different types of TEFL cert. I would assume a DELTA qualification would be enough to work as a language support teacher.[/QUOTE]

I got mine of this crowd a couple of years ago; http://www.thelanguagehouse.net/

These children have to suffer enough, without having to endure the likes of me "teaching" them english.

Euro_Kraut

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Which goes on little things like running the country. Love this attitude, they pay taxes, ergo they should be entitled to everything and anything.

Thats a quite a big step you making. The point is they contribute to the education system in the exact same way as every other parent.

Notice I said a contribution, is that too much to ask? A subscription or donation, if you will.

Should parents of special needs kids or those with disabilities also pay extra?

I don't think so. In fact I do not believe a child standard of education should be determined by the ability of their parents to pay money. I believe that public funded education benefits everyone in society in the long run. I apply the same train of though to kids whose parents to do speak English as their first language.

There are only three Educate Together schools in Galway City and County.

The primary school going population of the area is about 27,000 according to cso.ie

Equally about 12% of people described themselves as something other than Roman Catholic.

I'm amazed that the story isn't about parents being forced to send their children to schools run by organisations that don't share their beliefs or lack of them.

(apart from the CoI school in town I can't think of any other non catholic primary schools)

Euro_Kraut

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

These children have to suffer enough, without having to endure the likes of me "teaching" them english.

I'm sure you would be a lovely teacher.

IrishManSaipan

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Some children only move to Ireland when they are 14/15. It these that I am referring too. Not sure what the set up in Primary school is but obviously the later the child moves the bigger the challenge.

Very true, point taken. Regarding primary school students, in hindsight, do you think Brian Hayes' suggestion was a good one?

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2008/08/20/story70253.asp

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Again, not sure in Primary school, but in Secondary the foreign kids get ther English support lesson while the others are doing Irish. Therefore the impact is minimized.

Sounds reasonable enough, but according to the reports, it is children in primary, not secondary schools were the problems arise.

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

I agree though that in Primary a teacher cannot be expected to teach a new language to some kids and maths to others at the same time.

Agreed, if a student struggles through primary school, it will hinder his/her progress in secondary.

"Tus maith leath n h-oibre". A good start is half the battle.

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

They are hardly going to come along and say they don't need more funding. There is a need for reform, investment etc. but I am not sure we are at the stage (like in Germany) where kids are going all the way from Kindergarten to Leaving Cert and still have no English.

Give it time......

Dudess

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

How is that racist?

It's not remotely racist - there isn't any evidence of racial discrimination whatsoever, but the OP was thinking "Hmmm... I need something to sock it to the liberals on AH... oh look, this'll do. Plus, I'll lash the 'racist' label on it in a cryptic, 'going-against-the-grain' fashion for maximum attention seeking".

IrishManSaipan

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Should parents of special needs kids or those with disabilities also pay extra?

No, but these children are of sound body and mind.

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

I don't think so. In fact I do not believe a child standard of education should be determined by the ability of their parents to pay money. I believe that public funded education benefits everyone in society in the long run. I apply the same train of though to kids whose parents to do speak English as their first language.

When I was in school, and it wasnt that long ago(2004), my ma was asked to pay a subscription each year on an annual basis(private donation).

If I moved abroad with my kids(hypothetical) and the government paid for language lessons for my kids(hypothetical) I would happily pay a small donation towards my kids(hypothetical) language lessons.

DogmaticLefty

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

But religious inequality is the cause.

Peer-reviewed study please. Or is that just your persecution complex coming to the fore?

DogmaticLefty

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Peer-reviewed study please. Or is that just your persecution complex coming to the fore?

Please! this isn't the IPCC. :pac:


edit: maybe you're right this is the AH version of PR.

Ruen

Deleted User wrote: »

A good solution if the country in question can afford such a programme, perhaps a special tax code to leach back the cost of the education over the lifetime of the immagrant.
In fact it may work out cheaper than having certain social service documents translated into about 50 languages at regular intervals. If you cant speak the language you can't claim! Quickest way to ensure linguistic conversion.

First of all primary education is free in this country, not going to make people pay for it the rest of their lives, that's just a ridiculous suggestion.
Secondly the issue relates to children of immigrants, in case you didn't get that it's the parents who are immigrants and in some cases the children might well be Irish.

Morlar wrote: »

I think we should make it a compulsory part of the asylum process that immigrants attend english language lessons while their case is working it's way through the system. If you made proficiency in english as the final hurdle to citizenship the levels would go through the roof.

Do you even know the difference between an asylum seeker and an economic migrant?

Ruen

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

No, but these children are of sound body and mind.

One of the cornerstones of this nation is free education, primary education is a basic that every child in this country is rightly entitled to and any needs they have be they language or special needs should be provided for by the state.

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

When I was in school, and it wasnt that long ago(2004), my ma was asked to pay a subscription each year on an annual basis(private donation).

If I moved abroad with my kids(hypothetical) and the government paid for language lessons for my kids(hypothetical) I would happily pay a small donation towards my kids(hypothetical) language lessons.

That was voluntary, and what might be small to you may be alot to someone else and there's no reason why a childs education should suffer because of a families inability to afford it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Peer-reviewed study please. Or is that just your persecution complex coming to the fore?

This was explained to you on the other thread. You chose to ignore it.

Ruen

Ruen wrote: »

First of all primary education is free in this country, not going to make people pay for it the rest of their lives, that's just a ridiculous suggestion.
Secondly the issue relates to children of immigrants, in case you didn't get that it's the parents who are immigrants and in some cases the children might well be Irish.

My comment is in reference to the education of their parants (who are taxpayers - assuming they are not economic migrants spongers) but my original comment that these children should be educated separatly until their english is up to standard still stands.

Ruen

Deleted User wrote: »

My comment is in reference to the education of their parants (who are taxpayers - assuming they are not economic migrants spongers) but my original comment that these children should be educated separatly until their english is up to standard still stands.

Well that's a whole different kettle of fish, as adults they don't have to learn English if they don't want to and if as you suggested the cost would be recouped over their lifetime through a tax on them they'd just go to the library and learn for free.:cool:

Hank_Jones

The kids should be forced to take extra classes in order to improve their english.

The fact is that if some kids are holding back others due to their poor language skills then that should be rectified outside of school time so that it doesn't infringe as much on others.

Personally I think that this would be less of an issue if all schools were non-secular, as that would allow for better integration.

kowloon

Is there a country in the EU where primary education isn't free?

stovelid

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Epic. Fail.

Use of fail (or any variant) as a standalone retort really needs to incur an automatic site ban by now.

In my experience, a lot of people who claim that they are keeping their children away for "language-resource" reasons are often rationalizing the fact that they don't want their children going to schools that they perceive to be full of Africans and other nationalities.

On a side note: I assume that lot of non-nationals here actually Catholic as well? It's not primarily an educate-together issue either. My local national school now has a growing number of non-national pupils, and there is a growing number of parents (not least confirmed to me by my own neighbours) electing to avoid the school as a result.

Nodin

Morlar wrote: »

I think we should make it a compulsory part of the asylum process that immigrants attend english language lessons while their case is working it's way through the system. If you made proficiency in english as the final hurdle to citizenship the levels would go through the roof.

immigrants are not asylum seekers. Asylum seekers aren't here in sufficient numbers to be a problem.

IrishManSaipan

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

I got mine of this crowd a couple of years ago; http://www.thelanguagehouse.net/

These children have to suffer enough, without having to endure the likes of me "teaching" them english.

Yeah, but not everyone with a TEFL cert is a bad teacher or couldn't care less. There are loads of brilliant teachers around with CELTA qualifications. I only have CELTA but I take my job seriously and teach well. I actually got offered a language support type position in the UK but turned it down to go back to college. I'm doing a postgrad partly focusing on the grammatical differences between English and other European languages, so it's really interesting to work out why the students have problems and how I can teach them most effectively. You really shouldn't be teaching at all if you think you're rubbish :eek: