Should people on the dole have public service duty.

Slugs

Been pushing this through my head a lot lately, and I know that australia have a system in some way similar to this. But whatever

Seen many posts relating to the maintenance of the country. Roads aren't done properly, unclean towns etc. And people defending the system, or trying to make excuses to it have put it down to lack of funds. And I thought to myself, why not use people on the dole. Not to insult EVERYONE on the dole, but this is free money, for not working. I know a lot of people have worked, and therefore deserve to be on the dole, but we all know that there are people who abuse the system. So should this idea be implemented. Should people on the dole be used for public service, if not to earn their dole, then to somehow supplement it.

any thoughts appreciated

old fossil

I agree somewhat with Slugs. I'm unemployed for 10 months now after 40 years of working. If I was giving work to do which would suit my experiences, ability and age I would have no problem taking it up for payment of my dole money. I think this could be rolled out on a voluntary basis and with an added incentive for example maybe 10% - 20% extra on the dole money. It certainly would be better than applying for jobs and getting no replies or searching for jobs that just are not there.

draward

Me too yes in a heart beat 10% - 20% for the fuel (car).

barney 20v

Slugs wrote: »

Been pushing this through my head a lot lately, and I know that australia have a system in some way similar to this. But whatever

Seen many posts relating to the maintenance of the country. Roads aren't done properly, unclean towns etc. And people defending the system, or trying to make excuses to it have put it down to lack of funds. And I thought to myself, why not use people on the dole. Not to insult EVERYONE on the dole, but this is free money, for not working. I know a lot of people have worked, and therefore deserve to be on the dole, but we all know that there are people who abuse the system. So should this idea be implemented. Should people on the dole be used for public service, if not to earn their dole, then to somehow supplement it.

any thoughts appreciated

"Free money for not working"...... so where did all my paye and prsi contributions go over all my working life?
That statement is one of the most ignorant i have ever read..

Oh and this has been discussed elsewhere recently on boards, mods to close this as its essentially a repost?

Todd Gack

Yeah, I think you should be obliged to spend some time contributing in some way. I recently spent 14 months on the dole and it was depressng and soul destroying. Had no energy or enthusiasm for anything.....every day was a lie in, watch tv, look at the jobs sites, more tv, up half the night because of the long lie in and then the same again next day. I felt then as I do now that if I was at least compelled to go out and do something it would possibly have at least given me some sense of worth and purpose instead of wasting away.

Liam Byrne

The argument against this is that it might prevent someone setting up a business to do whatever community tasks those on the dole would do, be it cutting grass on greens or training/supervising kids at sports, etc.

The problem is, of course, that in reality there loads of community things that are neglected.

Red_Marauder

What if they like their new job and so stay on the dole?
If I had to I'd do my job for 200euro per week as long as I could afford to.

More generally though, I wonder if this would actually change anything. You would have to allow the 'employees' considerable lee-way for all of the jobs research and interviews that had to do... otherwise it would be seen as a hindrance to recruitment, (particularly in terms of job interviews).

I think people who are abusing the system would find that quite an easy way of abusing the system, and the others who genuinely can't get work still wouldn't get work.

So I think there could be some good, cheap labour - but no change in unemployment figures.

bryaner

I am out of work 1.5 years after 20 years of continuous work since I left

school, where as i don't agree with the OP's free money point as I have paid all

my contributions, I fully agree that myself and others on the dole should

be out there keeping our cities, towns and villages neat and tidy as part

of our payment ,if for any reason just to keep my head up and other people

like me. It is a horrible rut to be flung into, no routine to work to.

bryaner

Red_Marauder wrote: »

What if they like their new job and so stay on the dole?
If I had to I'd do my job for 200euro per week as long as I could afford to.

More generally though, I wonder if this would actually change anything. You would have to allow the 'employees' considerable lee-way for all of the jobs research and interviews that had to do... otherwise it would be seen as a hindrance to recruitment, (particularly in terms of job interviews).

I think people who are abusing the system would find that quite an easy way of abusing the system, and the others who genuinely can't get work still wouldn't get work.

So I think there could be some good, cheap labour - but no change in unemployment figures.[/QUO


The abusers will always find a way through but the real worker thats
on the dole would love to get out and about (and there are a lot of them atm)

bryaner

Red_Marauder wrote: »

What if they like their new job and so stay on the dole?
If I had to I'd do my job for 200euro per week as long as I could afford to.

More generally though, I wonder if this would actually change anything. You would have to allow the 'employees' considerable lee-way for all of the jobs research and interviews that had to do... otherwise it would be seen as a hindrance to recruitment, (particularly in terms of job interviews).

I think people who are abusing the system would find that quite an easy way of abusing the system, and the others who genuinely can't get work still wouldn't get work.

So I think there could be some good, cheap labour - but no change in unemployment figures.

And I thought id add your full of it

pirelli

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The argument against this is that it might prevent someone setting up a business to do whatever community tasks those on the dole would do, be it cutting grass on greens or training/supervising kids at sports, etc.

The problem is, of course, that in reality there loads of community things that are neglected.

It would also be a truncated success with people from a working background chipping in and people from a more deprived background not participating.

It would result in it becoming a voluntary system. I am not afraid of taking a hard line and making it compulsory but you would want a very well thought out work system and for that reason it migh be better voluntary.

As it happens on the irish social welfare system through FAS you can work for employers for no wage but still receive the dole so it does exist in a way. We could simply create a business for ourselves and go to work.

There is also community section of fas which is basically the same as
10 - 20 % increase in your dole for work such as tidying towns etc.

Red_Marauder

bryaner wrote: »

And I thought id add your full of it

explain? All Im saying is it wouldnt change the unemployment figures

epgc3fyqirnbsx

Well it's supposed to be jobseekers and these people (myself included) are meant to spend all their time looking for work.

Now of course this isn't going to be the case, but there are sometimes where you could be very busy, with interviews and indeed tailor made C.V's and cover letters can take quite along time to complete (Often a day if it's a serious job that you are really going for)

So for reasons like that it would be unfair to force people to do community work.

However, you run the risk of having some folk who are unwilling to do anything but lounge and receive their weekly cheque and are willing to continue to do so at a considerable drain to the economy, as it has always been but perhaps felt a lot more now.

So, maybe it might be worth exploring the notion that the jobseekers allowance cut be cut marginally with extra payments available for completing necessary community works.

This is all fine in notion but in practice it would require new administrative departments, both at national and local level to sort out what jobs need doing, are the workers properly trained, are they safe etc etc

I think it's a fantastic notion, but I am unsure as to how practical it is

Slugs

"Free money for not working"...... so where did all my paye and prsi contributions go over all my working life?
That statement is one of the most ignorant i have ever read..

Oh and this has been discussed elsewhere recently on boards, mods to close this as its essentially a repost?

If you'd taken the time to read the full post instead of just jumping right in, you'd have noticed my disclaimer, saying that some people have EARNED the right to be on the dole. yet you didn't, and as a result, there's no doubt who's the ignorant one here.

I can understand people who're questioning the practicality of this idea. To them I say, if it's not compulsory, then perhaps it should be supplementary. Say you'd get a certain percentage of the dole free, then could earn more dependant on your hours working. If it was to be compulsory, then it needn't be a full time job. It could just be a once a fortnight set up, or something to that effect

oldyouth

I posted this in another debate but I believe there should be a lower basic payment with the option of an increased payment for those opting to carry out work that benefits the community. No one should be forced to do it but the incentive is there

Joey the lips

This is a stupid thread that keeps popin up every now and again. Most people on the dole dont dispute that they would be happy to work for it. My understanding was that was the CE Scheme principle. Doing work for the community and getting paid. For my own part. Since becoming a carer I am allowed work 15 hours employed so the govt will not give me a CE Scheme. I work vol for 2 organisations and together do between 6 and 10 hours a week. I do it because it keeps me sane not becuase i feel a duty. I reckon most people would be the same.

Its old boring and unfor news that the govt know of but seem to be cutting places in.

a far more pressing issue is the management of the scheme. How do you decide who has not tried hard enough, how do you decided who should be doing this. What about expense incurred doing the work. Will this be reimbursed. What about all the council workers and contract workers currently doing this. Will they be unemployed and have to work it as well.

The biggest problem with out infrastructure is not the potholes its there formation. A contractor comes along and digs a hole. 2 years later a resurfacer comes along and corrects it. There is not continuity between both. Much of the civil engineering stuff in this country is planned with an adhoc sense of planning. This will only be corrected when councils appoint councillors to specific job rolls as well as representing there constituents.


This is a poorly thought out notion by either a child or someone who is not in the workforce long enough.

theg81der

Thought I`d add my experience as it seems relevant -

I was part of a Community Employment scheme a few years ago, after a period of illness I was left with no experience to gain employment. It really changed my life - lead to me getting a job in which I was promoted 3 times in the period I was there and when I lost my job that experience coupled with the courses I had done as part of the CE scheme got me into college and I`m now in second year and doing well, although I have just found out I have dyslexia which explains alot and has made me feel alot better about myself. So I`m getting there but without the first step?...

CE schemes pay you about an extra 20e a week and you get to do 2 courses during your year also. You have to be at least a year unemployed and have some other criteria. Competition even when I interviewed was fierce so I imagine now its even less accessable.

Its funny I`ve been thinking about the Op`s idea also there are so many skilled people unemployed imagine what community schemes could be built/made/done. Similar to the way people volunteering to build houses abroad works. I think its crucial thou to value peoples skills.

Slugs

a far more pressing issue is the management of the scheme. How do you decide who has not tried hard enough, how do you decided who should be doing this. What about expense incurred doing the work. Will this be reimbursed. What about all the council workers and contract workers currently doing this. Will they be unemployed and have to work it as well.

As has already been suggested, this could be a voluntary project rather then a compulsory project. It could be run by local town councils and county councils. Expenses incurred should be covered by the state so no need for to be reimbursed. And let's be realistic, if the council workers were doing their damn job properly, we wouldn't have a need for this thread.

allisbleak

local projects should be organised

think of all us who have 20 years experience in all different areas of expertise.

think of all the young lads from 16 to 22 who know nothing and have little to do. we could be teaching them something valuable and forming community social groups.

my local town had a soccer week last week last year. all the unemployed dads and mums got involved and the community got together. there was all the ages groups and over 200 children turned out with parents.

its better than sitting at home with the tv and your spliff

Joey the lips

Slugs wrote: »

As has already been suggested, this could be a voluntary project rather then a compulsory project. It could be run by local town councils and county councils. Expenses incurred should be covered by the state so no need for to be reimbursed. And let's be realistic, if the council workers were doing their damn job properly, we wouldn't have a need for this thread.

So tell us.... Is the real issue you have a problem with people on the dole or you have a problem with the council.

Your solution.... Rather than sort the council you prepose to put them out of work by useing what can be effectivly termed as slave labour instead.

Yep.... You have my vote. :rolleyes:

Slugs

Well slave labour would they weren't getting paid. They already are. Look I don't have a problem with either of them. I'm merely suggesting that instead of the state paying for people who aren't, for the most part, working, would it not be better to get something out of it?

Joey the lips

Slugs wrote: »

Well slave labour would they weren't getting paid. They already are. Look I don't have a problem with either of them. I'm merely suggesting that instead of the state paying for people who aren't, for the most part, working, would it not be better to get something out of it?

Your missing the point. A person on the dole is suppose to be searching for work. Thats what the govt gets out of it....The hope that you will get a job and pay tax and PRSI.

If someone is out of work after a period of time they are entitled to retraining to help them find work because the govt feels they have become unemployable.

If someone is looking for work for over a year they are put on the back to work scheme.

However.... I hope that no one assums that the majority of people are lazy sh1ts that are unemployed and do not want work.

Tell us about your notion a little. Whats it based on... Where did the idea come from. What makes you think that because I cannot find work i should be put on the council taking someone elses job.

What makes you think the person in the council is actually responsable. You assume that they are lazy. Have they been allocated work? Is there money there for them to work?

There is nothing in this discussion that merits discussion. Other that giving out about the unemployed and the council

Thank god there is the guts of 4000000 unemployed because your notion is looney to suggest that these can work wth the council

Slugs

Why would we assume that the MAJORITY are lazy ****s? No one has suggested that, and I've tried to refrain from insinuating that. But there are people who're genuinely on the system for the purpose of a free load. You cannot deny that. You may even know one or two yourself.

I know the purpose of the dole is to cover you until you can find yourself another job, but let's be reasonable here, are you going to spend EVERY minute of EVERY weekday looking for a job. No. You might spend quit a considerable amount of time trying to do it, but at the end of the day, it's just not feesible that everyone can get around. And has been highlighted many a time, the dole for anyone supporting a family, is pittance. What I'm simply offering is a means of

a) Getting something back for the money that is spent on social welfare. at the end of the day, if it's even something like repainting a wall, or helping to restore an old building, at least there was some productivity.
b) A means for people to earn more money on the dole. If this idea was even to be implemented on a supplementary basis, it would still mean that we're getting something productive out of it. It doesn't have to be compulsory. It can be voluntary. There're many ways for which this can be implemented.

sparkling sea

Surely if people on the dole, voluntarily do jobs that other people are being paid for or should be paid for then this will only lead to more people being laid off and because of that more people on the dole.

I suppose it would be a good way of bringing down wages (which is what we need to happen if we are ever going to be competitive again) but I wouldn't like someone to offer to do my job for Euro 200 a week. Unions would be up in arms and who could blame them

Maybe social or community inclusion projects would be of better benefit, these could get people mixing with each other again, which would in turn allow Ireland to become a society as opposed to an economy again. The knock on effects would be that people would suffer less from depression because they would have something constructive to do and they wouldn't feel as worthless or isolated as they do when they become unemployed.

People would get to know each other again and start to feel a sense of pride in the area, etc

It might work

Also it might help bring crime rates down as people would become more familiar with one another and would be more easily able to spot unusal activitiy. There could be a whole host of benefits.

Red_Marauder

Slugs wrote: »

It doesn't have to be compulsory. It can be voluntary.

Isn't it already voluntary?

Slugs

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Isn't it already voluntary?

If such a program already exists, linkage please.

Red_Marauder

It's voluntary as in, what's to stop someone on the dole contributing their time to local community involvement, subject to SWO permission?

Furthermore, the community employment scheme has been mentioned.

Slugs

Red_Marauder wrote: »

It's voluntary as in, what's to stop someone on the dole contributing their time to local community involvement, subject to SWO permission?

Furthermore, the community employment scheme has been mentioned.

I'll have to look into it I'll do so later as I'm busy atm.

conorhal

I agree, but this is how I would structure the system, you have no obligation to the state while collecting unemployment benefit, but when you run out of stamps and move to jobseekers allowance then you have 6 months to find a job for yourself or you will have to take one that FAS find for you, which may have a public service element or your dole is cut off. Furthermore, if you find a job off your own bat you should be allowed keep 50% of your dole pament for 6 months. Also if you have less than 18 months worth of PRSI payments or simply no work history at all, you do not get the dole without having to perform some useful function for it.

Joey the lips

[QUOTE=Slugs;64438445

a) Getting something back for the money that is spent on social welfare. at the end of the day, if it's even something like repainting a wall, or helping to restore an old building, at least there was some productivity.
b) A means for people to earn more money on the dole. If this idea was even to be implemented on a supplementary basis, it would still mean that we're getting something productive out of it. It doesn't have to be compulsory. It can be voluntary. There're many ways for which this can be implemented.[/QUOTE]


a) Most people on the dole were actually employed and payed social insurence. The fact they are now unemployed allows them claim against this.

b) You never said that in your original post and as i said thats exactly what the CE scheme is.

and as for not being compulsory but vol. The notion is daft. I volenteer for the SVP in my spare time. I do it as a return on a good life. Anyone on the dole is generally hard up and struggleing you start to introduce a scheme on a vol basis and it wont be long before its compulsary


What i reckon should happen is most of the people who are drawing the dole should be hired as social welfare inspectors in there free time. That way all unmarried mothers who claim to live alone but are actually living with men could be caught out, That those who are claiming sick and in fact healthy could be caught out.

Your notion is full of hot air and based on no actually thought as to its effect.