fianna fail and why they shouldnt get a sniff of your vote in the next election

trapsagenius

trapsagenius wrote: »

BTW, if there was an election in the morning I would vote for FF because I would be appalled if Enda Kenny was Taoiseach.Also the fact that FG are absolutely hopeless when it comes to dealing with NI.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You seriously reckon that Kenny is worse than Cowen ?

Or as corrupt as Ahern ?

Jeez! I must be reading the wrong facts about the last ten years, because while Kenny is certainly no saint and was inept at getting O'Donoghue his due, he's light years ahead of those two.

Well I do think Cowen was brilliant in helping to resolve the recent stalemate in NI and hasn't really been given any credit for it.

The reasons I outlined in this thread http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64451177#post64451177 are why I'd never vote for FG with Kenny as leader.

And I never mentioned anything about corruption!

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

And I never mentioned anything about corruption!

You didn't have to.

People are saying "sure FG had the same policies".

If so, then the difference between FF and FG is the condoning of corruption.

FG kicked out Lowry; FF jumped through hoops to condone and facilitate Haughey, Burke, Cooper-Flynn, Ahern, Lawlor (to name the most high-profile ones).

So - in the absence of any difference (which is something I'd dispute, but let's assume for FF apologists sake that they're equal), the distinguishing factor is how FG deal with corruption - they kick people out!

And that alone is enough of a differential to put them miles ahead of FF.

And before anyone raises the tribunals again re Ahern, here's 3 facts :

1) He took it on himself to organise a State Funeral for the biggest con-man of all time

2) He wrote blank cheques for misappropriate of funds (and whatever about this being a mistake of trusting Haughey, Ahern makes a joke of this on The Late Late, indicating that he sees nothing wrong with it - it's all hilarious)

3) He "gave people jobs because they were his friends"; that's nepotism and is corrupt

So whatever the tribunal finds is irrelevant. If they find that he's guilty, it's another one to add to the list........if not, we'll have to accept due process (although all it means is that within the terms of reference they found nothing relevant, and so it's not the same as overall innocence)

But even if they absolve him, the word still applies.

dave ireland

the ship is not sinking the right things are just not been done they all appear to be the same, there is not one of them worthy of my vote when or if it comes around, i love my country and we are a highly trained highly skilled well educated race that just need a push in the right direction,, {we over true one of the most powerfull nation not a hundred years ago.} the money is there, the jobs are there, the will is there,the infrastructure is there, its just not in the right hands we need change not more life boats,, stand up and fight and dont just give up a politician can get into power with just twenty five thousand votes make them change to get you vote before they come asking for it..

"dont change your politician get your politician to change"

thebman

skearon wrote: »

Kenny has no economic knowledge and no ability to make decisions in a crisis, God help us all if he was ever to make Taoiseach!

Brian Cowen and Bertie Ahear have masters in Economics in your mind then?

Interesting...

Bertie Ahern has not been found guilty of any crime, there is such thing as due process!

lol there is also a thing called reading between the lines. I won't say the word for somone that believes Bertie Ahearn is squeaky clean.

I think anyone that believes he is, should not be left in charge of anything or trusted in anyway. If someone believs Bertie is squeaky clean then they have questionable morales and I want nothing to do with them.

T "real deal" J

Fianna Fail represents irish society.

In ireland it's ok to be corrupt, for the lads to look after each other. It's accepted. Look at any town in Ireland.

The dog on the street knows what Fianna Fail is, but they were re-elected 3 times in a row because everyone was getting rich. The Irish electorate choose to ignore issues of integrity and corruption. We don't care.

We got the government we deserve. Don't blame Fianna Fail. I blame the Irish people for voting for them. Then we whinge about it on Joe Duffy.

dave ireland

i think when get elected they enter a third dimension and dissociate themself from the real world.. there is something that we can do, take two minutes and email the government and the party that you normally vote for tell them CHANGE or you don't get my VOTE.
.
"don't change your politician get your politician to change"

skearon

sesna wrote: »

The issue was the cost to the taxpayer, not the ECB's support. More spin.

Which won't cost a tax payer a cent, as in the eventually of NAMA not being self financing, the banks will face an increased rate of corporation tax to makeup for any shortful. Couldn't be any clearer.

thebman

skearon wrote: »

Which won't cost a tax payer a cent, as in the eventually of NAMA not being self financing, the banks will face an increased rate of corporation tax to makeup for any shortful. Couldn't be any clearer.

Which will just be passed on to customers in the form of fees to compensate for the fall in profit margins TBH.

skearon

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And before anyone raises the tribunals again re Ahern, here's 3 facts :

1) He took it on himself to organise a State Funeral for the biggest con-man of all time

2) He wrote blank cheques for misappropriate of funds (and whatever about this being a mistake of trusting Haughey, Ahern makes a joke of this on The Late Late, indicating that he sees nothing wrong with it - it's all hilarious)

3) He "gave people jobs because they were his friends"; that's nepotism and is corrupt

1 - The State organised a funeral for a former Taoiseach, everyone knows Haughey did wrong, he also did a huge number of positive things such as starting what became the peace process, IFSC etc. History will judge him, however any former Taoiseach is entitled to a State funeral.

2 - He signed cheques at the request of his boss, just like many, many people do in businesses and organisations every day of the week. If Haughey used them corruptly, then the blame with with Haughey and not Ahern.

3 - Nothing wrong with appointing people he knew that were suitable for the job.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So whatever the tribunal finds is irrelevant. If they find that he's guilty, it's another one to add to the list........if not, we'll have to accept due process (although all it means is that within the terms of reference they found nothing relevant, and so it's not the same as overall innocence)

But even if they absolve him, the word still applies.

Wonderful to see you have such 'an open mind' which dismisses the findings of a tribunal before they have even been published!!

sesna

skearon wrote: »

3 - Nothing wrong with appointing people he knew that were suitable for the job.

People should get appointed to jobs because of merit, not because they are someones friend. Of course this is not how FF operates

Liam Byrne

skearon wrote: »

Wonderful to see you have such 'an open mind' which dismisses the findings of a tribunal before they have even been published!!

Even more wonderful to see someone attempt such a blatant misrepresentation.

I'll be charitable and assume that you're new to the discussion and just were too lazy to read the full thread. Had to laugh at those giving you "thanks", though, because they'd have read it.

I have never "dismissed" the tribunal's yet-to-be-issued findings.

My point was made in order to head off the pathetic attempts by Ahern's followers to imply that if the tribunal finds him "innocent" within their narrow and specific terms of reference then it does not follow that he is not corrupt. Corrupt of those charges yes, but in general, no.

Because aside from the tribunal he has engaged in nepotism and - should the unexplained (or rather, explained pathetically 5 different ways) monies be unrelated to what the tribunal is investigating, the fact remains that he has unexplained money to the tune of a few years' salary.

He only paid off "the loan" when it came to light.

That - in a nutshell - is the reason I said that the tribunal's findings are irrelevant to the whole picture.

I'd guess that I shouldn't expect an apology from you for the fact that you got it so wrong, though.

I would, however, appreciate if you were more careful in future and read a full thread so that you can make an informed comment without misrepresenting people.

North_West_Art

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhYb6ZM-vds

HIGNFY in the title stands for 'Have I Got News For You', the British comedy series

paddyland

I just HAVE to thank you for that last clip, I don't know who laughed louder, me or the audience!

Very much to the point of this thread...

trapsagenius

paddyland wrote: »

I just HAVE to thank you for that last clip, I don't know who laughed louder, me or the audience!

Very much to the point of this thread...

That clip is fairly hilarious alright!:)

jmayo

trapsagenius wrote: »

I think you'll find that Labour's ratings remained high even after they went into government with FF.According to many analysts it was their decision to go straight into government with FG that damaged their credibility with the electorate.

BTW, if there was an election in the morning I would vote for FF because I would be appalled if Enda Kenny was Taoiseach.Also the fact that FG are absolutely hopeless when it comes to dealing with NI.

But I thought bertie brought peace to NI so there is no need to do anything with it anymore :rolleyes:

For some reason I think you would vote ff even if a jackass was the candidate

wicklowwonder wrote: »

There are alot of people in the same boat, Enda Kenny will not win an election. FG should be may ahead in the polls, they have done nothing to encourage people to support them other than say ah sure you cant vote for that crowd, look what they have done. Labour will get into bed with FF purely because they will see as their only way of getting into power, I know a few members who feel they have waited on FG long enough that its time to take the plunge.

Have these few labour members you know ever happened to chat to anyone of their parliamentary party ?
Did you ever think they were pulling the p*** out of you ?

wicklowwonder wrote: »

how is Bertie's team misleading? He was the leader so thus his team was under him? Also yes to jobs is not misleading as more jobs have been created with FF in power and us in Europe than any other time in our history. SCUM Liam? These people are humans like me and i presume you.... They majority are trying to lead us of this recession. Please do not refer to the Fianna Fail party as SCUM! It still is the biggest political organisation in this country in term of numbers and i take that a personal insult from you. Scum is the people selling drugs on the street or the people killing in cold blood gang land style not a political party leading this country out of recession. What ever your beef with Ahern you cannot call the collective group of FF scum. But I am not suprised as I said on other threads you and a small few other on this site will do anything you can to blacken the name of good men. At least you have stopped comparing them to other an other organisation.....

Collective responsibility only applies to everyone when taking the blame for ff's mess, but it doesn't concern ff and it's members who have kept in positons of power criminals and very unethical characters and now it appears they keep members who should be charged with perjury in those same high positions.

wicklowwonder wrote: »

same was said about the greens.... It will be a hung Dail so or someone like Sinn Fein will hold the balance the power. Would anyone go into power with Sinn Fein? What do you guys think?

I bet ff would. No price is too high to pay to stay in power.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

To be fair, the Greens never said that they wouldn't go into coalition with FF, they just said that they were part of the opposition and didn't want to go into power with FF.

Ironically, the party whose ideas best match those of FF are FG. Is it beyond the realms of possibility that we will see a Fiana Gombeen coaltion and eventual unification of these two parties, with Labour as the reluctant opposition party?

Ehh trevor sargant as leader of the Green Prty said he would not take the green party into government with bertie ahern.
He duly resigned, rather than do this and to show his utter disgust with the move he accepted a junior minister role.
How noble :rolleyes:

Dempsey wrote: »

I dont know who I'm going to vote for but wake up and smell the coffee. The alternatives aren't better. There is a reason that FG and co didn't get a lookin for the last how many years tbh, they weren't good enough. Yes we are in a mess but that doesn't automatically mean that the alternative would have done any better at all.
...

From your succeeding posts I guess it will be ff.
BTW is lowry in your constituency or the other Tipp constituency ?

Dempsey wrote: »

Oh yes, Fianna Gael are squeaky clean. If you believe that then all I can do is laugh tbh

The certainly could have done worse!
...

Of course they may have handled the economy worse but they didn't.

FACT is ff are the ones that wrecked the eocnomy and presided over the regime that allowed the banks to become insolvent..

No ammount of what ifs and maybes will change that fact of history.

skearon wrote: »

No, its your that should be ashamed of yourself for such a statement about any democratic political party.

Just because a party is democratic doesn't mean it is necessarily good for the people who didn't support it.

skearon wrote: »

Kenny has no economic knowledge and no ability to make decisions in a crisis, God help us all if he was ever to make Taoiseach!

Bertie Ahern has not been found guilty of any crime, there is such thing as due process!

FFS that statement is a bit rich coming form someone who backs biffo.

We need God's help already exactly because biffo and bertie were taoiseach.

Ah the old due process card.
When is the liar from Limerick going to get due process and be charged with perjury I wonder ?
And please before anyone starts on at me for calling him a liar.
He admitted to the high court that he lied in his affidavit.

skearon wrote: »

They weren't as there was poor financial regulation here, but main cause was complete lack of regulation in the USA which ended up infecting the world's economic markets.

Wake up call for you - thanks to the Government's fiscal measures, Ireland is no longer internationally regarded as being in a similar state as Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain.

I base my opinions on facts, not insults, and yes the facts clearly show NAMA will be self financing.

FACT is the insolvency of the Irish banks is becuase they over lent crazy amounts to Irish developers for overpriced development land, not because the US didn't regulate subprime and derivates.
Fact is one of the banks didn't even bother with valuations on some securing assets.
The Irish banks hadn't bought any of this sh**.

Fact is a German bank had to be bailed out becuase a subsidary based in the IFSC was buying dodgy toxic US sh**e.

Your claim that NAMA will be self financing is about as valid as me claiming Mayo are going to win three in a row.
Actually take the Mayo bet you have probably more chance of winning than NAMA ever breaking even.
BTW stop reading the BS put out by frank many gaffs fahy.

skearon wrote: »

Nonense, but talking of the ECB, they are fully supportive of NAMA

Of course they are, they know that when the sh*** hits the fan that the Irish taxpayers are the ones having to pay for the clean up.
All they care is that Irish banks don't collapse, Irish economy doesn't completely let down and thus drag the Euro down.

trapsagenius

jmayo wrote: »

But I thought bertie brought peace to NI so there is no need to do anything with it anymore :rolleyes:

For some reason I think you would vote ff even if a jackass was the candidate

Bertie did bring peace.But FG have shown again and again throughout history their unfailing ability to fvck things up in NI, no matter how good or bad things are up there(John Bruton for example?).

And you can think that but you'd be wrong.And anyway,judging from your posting history its clear you're a blind FG supporter so you're hardly one to be lecturing people about party loyalties are you:rolleyes:?You'd probably even vote for an idiot like Kenny!

ninty9er

If the Reynolds government hadn't fallen, FF and Labour would still be in government 4 elections on and Labour as a large minor party would have had the influence to curb the overheating and tax incentivising that has caused the current situation.

FF and Labour will form the next government.

Scofflaw

Just to remind people that supporting Fianna Fáil (or any other party) is the democratic choice of the person concerned. It does not give anyone a licence for abuse. Also, the business of sweeping designations of entire parties as 'scum' isn't something that contributes to debate - it's flame-bait, and will be treated as such.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

And you can think that but you'd be wrong.And anyway,judging from your posting history its clear you're a blind FG supporter so you're hardly one to be lecturing people about party loyalties are you:rolleyes:?You'd probably even vote for an idiot like Kenny!

I can't speak for jmayo....but I remember someone (incorrectly) making a similar assumption solely on the basis that I believe that the facts show that FG are a far more acceptable option than FF.

I'd admit that they're poor - there's no doubt about that - but they're infinitely better than the current shower.

dave ireland

don't vote for them send them an email/post/phone them and tell them that,, irish people have to change and make our politician change (all of them) we don't vote not because were lazy but because we gave up, if we change they will change, a small amount of votes could keep them out of power so let them know you want change,, your vote is a weapon let them know you intend to use it.
.
"dont change your politician get your politician to change"

jmayo

trapsagenius wrote: »

Bertie did bring peace.But FG have shown again and again throughout history their unfailing ability to fvck things up in NI, no matter how good or bad things are up there(John Bruton for example?).

And you can think that but you'd be wrong.And anyway,judging from your posting history its clear you're a blind FG supporter so you're hardly one to be lecturing people about party loyalties are you:rolleyes:?You'd probably even vote for an idiot like Kenny!

Yes I will admit I do support FG.
They have in the past and more so today best represent some of my views.
They don't represent all of them.
Saying that I am not nor ever have been a member.

I would also vote for Labour, PDs, Greens even once upon a time.
Basically anybody but ff.
I started having an interest in politics when Garrett FGitzgerald was on one side trying to drag the country into the 20th century and one cj haughey was playing lick**** to the church all in the hope of garnering votes.
Also how a man became so rich on his political salary always raised questions in my mind.
The worst thing that ever happened to ff and indeed politics in this country was George Colley loosing the ff leadership race.
haughey winning meant the worst elements in the party rose to power all copying their beloved leader.
Remember one of those was bertie.

I woudl have voted PDs at the beginning.
The PDs started life as a party of principles and no one could say that Dessie O'Malley was unethical, corrupt or lacking in the courage and moral fibre that it took to stand up to the cr** that haughey was pulling.
Sadly his successors dragged the name of that party through the mire by their total lack of courage to walk away from ff.
harney and mcdowell, for all his blustering, never showed the courage of O'Malley.

ninty9er wrote: »

If the Reynolds government hadn't fallen, FF and Labour would still be in government 4 elections on and Labour as a large minor party would have had the influence to curb the overheating and tax incentivising that has caused the current situation.

FF and Labour will form the next government.

So are you blaiming Labour for the bubble now ? :rolleyes:

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I can't speak for jmayo....but I remember someone (incorrectly) making a similar assumption solely on the basis that I believe that the facts show that FG are a far more acceptable option than FF.

I'd admit that they're poor - there's no doubt about that - but they're infinitely better than the current shower.

All parties have had rotten apples, all parties always will.
The measure I feel of a party is how they handle those rotten apples.
FG have had some, one major ex minister who IMHO has still some very serious questions to answer regarding his ministerial decisions.
In fact I believe lowry should never be allowed go for election.
But FG boot them out and never appear to condone corruption or severe unethical behaviour.

The fact is ff have had not alone have had a greater number of rotten apples, they have been promoted to the top ranks within the party and thus within our governments.
Even when there were serious questions about their behaviour there have still been left allowed stay in their positions of power.
This mentality of not removing at worst corrupt or at best seriously unethical high ranking members has caused the whole of politics in this country to be tainted.
It has actually undermined our democracy and in the past when we had serious threats to the state from dissident terrorist groups it could have had far more serious consequences.
If there was todays level of antipathy towards politicans in the late 60s, early 70s when Northern Ireland flared up, the very existence of our state would be seriosly in perl.

The mentality that eminates from ff that no one is ever responsible has become now also become the norm within the public service, particularly at the top levels.
Hell this mentality has even become the norm in certain areas of the private sector i.e. the banks.

Just to show how the ff party still condones unethical behaviour to this very day.
Today as we speak a ff minister sits in cabinet who has admitted to lying to the high court in an affidavit.
Under normal circumstances this person could be charged with perjury.

In the UK two politicans went to jail for perjury.
jeffrey archer was found guilty of perjury in a libel case, the same type of case that willie o'dea was involved in.
ff could if they wanted fire him from office and thus make a statement to the Irish electorate that things have changed and that unethical behaviour will not be tolerated.
Instead the usual tripe will be trotted out that the man has not been found guilty of anything and due process must be followed.
So much for ethics. :rolleyes:

trapsagenius

dave ireland wrote: »

don't vote for them send them an email/post/phone them and tell them that,, irish people have to change and make our politician change (all of them) we don't vote not because were lazy but because we gave up, if we change they will change, a small amount of votes could keep them out of power so let them know you want change,, your vote is a weapon let them know you intend to use it.
.
"dont change your politician get your politician to change"

I did that alright.I made the assumption based on things like your signature, realised I was incorrect and subsequently apologised, remember?

jmayo wrote: »

Yes I will admit I do support FG.
They have in the past and more so today best represent some of my views.
They don't represent all of them.
Saying that I am not nor ever have been a member.

I would also vote for Labour, PDs, Greens even once upon a time.
Basically anybody but ff.
I started having an interest in politics when Garrett FGitzgerald was on one side trying to drag the country into the 20th century and one cj haughey was playing lick**** to the church all in the hope of garnering votes.
Also how a man became so rich on his political salary always raised questions in my mind.
The worst thing that ever happened to ff and indeed politics in this country was George Colley loosing the ff leadership race.
haughey winning meant the worst elements in the party rose to power all copying their beloved leader.
Remember one of those was bertie.

I completely agree with you with regards George Colley.But I can't leave the "Garret Fitzgerald was a good Taoiseach" argument slide.The man was completely inept.He was a talker who took a bad economy and made it much worse and, as I outlined in a previous thread, probably made matters worse in NI with the Anglo-Irish Agreement.

I presume when you talk about him trying to "drag the country into the 20th century", you are referring to things like the divorce referendum which was rejected .Surely the fact that the proposal was rejected shows Ireland wasn't willing to go along with his view of progress?Obviously if that wasn't what you were referring to you can ignore this comment.

skearon

sesna wrote: »

People should get appointed to jobs because of merit, not because they are someones friend. Of course this is not how FF operates

Try reading what I actually posted, specifically I said there was nothing wrong with appointing people he knew who 'were suitable for the job'

Liam Byrne

skearon wrote: »

Try reading what I actually posted, specifically I said there was nothing wrong with appointing people he knew who 'were suitable for the job'

But they weren't suitable, because they failed spectacularly!

So Ahern is 100% responsible for recommending appointing on his own whim, someone incompetent.

And that leaves aside the very relevant factthat all public bodies should have tenders and proper applications, and should be based on what you know, not who you know.

Amhran Nua

T real deal J wrote: »

Fianna Fail represents irish society.

No, it represents a small core of the party faithful and for a while those who thought they were getting rich in the boom, which certainly isn't representative of Irish society as a whole.

Also there is a distinct difference between those who chose to vote and those who were too disillusioned and cynical with the corruption and general stench to care, which would be most people.

And lest we forget many people who did vote FF didn't vote for the party, but for "their" TD who happens to be in the FF parliamentary group - the parish pump at work again. These are the people who wouldn't know FF national policies from a hole in the wall, indeed its pretty hard to pin down what those policies are at any given time, in line with the go where the wind blows as long as you get the locals approach of the party.

So really, when you look at it, FF only represents a fairly small subset of priveleged and out of touch individuals, and everyone else is being rapidly disabused of their illusions by the current economic situation.

dave ireland wrote: »

there is something that we can do, take two minutes and email the government and the party that you normally vote for tell them CHANGE or you don't get my VOTE.

Thats a good suggestion, but looking at the Lee affair lends no confidence to the idea that any of the mainstream parties cares what anyone outside the hierarchy has to say.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'd admit that they're poor - there's no doubt about that - but they're infinitely better than the current shower.

Its a sad state of affairs when "the least bad" is the best option.

Laminations

Amhran Nua wrote: »

...looking at the Lee affair lends no confidence to the idea that any of the mainstream parties cares what anyone outside the hierarchy has to say.


Its a sad state of affairs when "the least bad" is the best option.

Firstly, what exactly did Lee have to say? What were his policies? I think its been shown that Lee and politics was like a like a 17yr old boy getting involved with a married woman - he entered naively and finished prematurely.

Secondly, its a sadder state of affairs when people dont see "the least bad" as the best option and continue supporting "the most bad". Yes ideally we'd like to have better, in reality where all parties are quite abismal, you need to chose the least bad. Then if the other parties wanna get a vote they need to improve to become the newest 'least bad'.

Amhran Nua

Laminations wrote: »

Firstly, what exactly did Lee have to say?

Maybe if he had been allowed to have his say, we'd know. I don't support him leaving his Dáil seat, but its the same story with all of the main parties - hence the need for a party whip.

Laminations wrote: »

Secondly, its a sadder state of affairs when people dont see "the least bad" as the best option and continue supporting "the most bad".

As I said, people are rapidly becoming disabused of their notions, which is reflected in the polls.

Laminations wrote: »

Yes ideally we'd like to have better, in reality where all parties are quite abismal, you need to chose the least bad. Then if the other parties wanna get a vote they need to improve to become the newest 'least bad'.

Or you could make an effort to create an alternative with a semblance of contact with reality.

Tommy Bateman

Sure without Fianna Fail there would have been no economic boom in the first place. Haughey set the country on track, Bertie as well as creating peace in NI, brought us the best of the boom, and now that Lenny is in control everything is back in order and under ctontrol. Lenny knew what to do, and thankfully we are now seen an economic recovery. The opposition are just playing on the current woes of the electorate, give them time and FF will deliver.

hinault

Have voted in every election since 1982.

I have never voted FF.

Never will either.

Voted FG/PD/labour, depending on the relative merits of the candidate.

paddyland

Tommy Bateman wrote: »

Sure without Fianna Fail there would have been no economic boom in the first place. Haughey set the country on track, Bertie as well as creating peace in NI, brought us the best of the boom, and now that Lenny is in control everything is back in order and under ctontrol. Lenny knew what to do, and thankfully we are now seen an economic recovery. The opposition are just playing on the current woes of the electorate, give them time and FF will deliver.

Fianna Fáil are great fellows, sure isn't Brian Cowen an honourable man, a great fellow over a pint or three, and Mary Coughlan and the way she might look at ye, and all the plum jobs they got for the boys, and all...