fianna fail and why they shouldnt get a sniff of your vote in the next election

Tommy Bateman

paddyland wrote: »

Fianna Fáil are great fellows, sure isn't Brian Cowen an honourable man, a great fellow over a pint or three, and Mary Coughlan and the way she might look at ye, and all the plum jobs they got for the boys, and all...

He sure is , and hes as tough as an old boot. He will lead the party to another victory, helped thanks to some of them blueshirts and greenies throwing hissy fits. Cowen is untameable in his toughness and with clever Lenny by his side, those velvet wearing pinkos in opposition don't stand chance.

paddyland

Tommy Bateman wrote: »

He sure is , and hes as tough as an old boot. He will lead the party to another victory, helped thanks to some of them blueshirts and greenies throwing hissy fits. Cowen is untameable in his toughness and with clever Lenny by his side, those velvet wearing pinkos in opposition don't stand chance.

I had a steak last Sunday which was as tough as an old boot too... Unfortunately all I got out of it was indigestion...

hinault

They're running out of coalition partners.

No doubt they will start cosying up to the natural bedfellows Sinn Fein.

Dempsey

jmayo wrote:

From your succeeding posts I guess it will be ff.
BTW is lowry in your constituency or the other Tipp constituency ?

jmayo wrote:

Of course they may have handled the economy worse but they didn't.

FACT is ff are the ones that wrecked the eocnomy and presided over the regime that allowed the banks to become insolvent..

No ammount of what ifs and maybes will change that fact of history.

He's in Tipperary North, same as myself. I've never EVER given Michael Lowery a vote.

I havent decide yet what way I'm going to vote. I'll weigh up my options when the election comes around.

Certainly wont be a knee jerk reaction and i certainly wont be using the logic that because they didnt get the chance to feck up the country then they must be better than the ones that did. Certainly doesnt mean that they have the ability to bring the country out of recession either

jmayo

paddyland wrote: »

Fianna Fáil are great fellows, sure isn't Brian Cowen an honourable man, a great fellow over a pint or three, and Mary Coughlan and the way she might look at ye, and all the plum jobs they got for the boys, and all...

Although it appears she isn't too interested in some jobs :rolleyes:

Dempsey wrote: »

He's in Tipperary North, same as myself. I've never EVER given Michael Lowery a vote.

I havent decide yet what way I'm going to vote. I'll weigh up my options when the election comes around.

Certainly wont be a knee jerk reaction and i certainly wont be using the logic that because they didnt get the chance to feck up the country then they must be better than the ones that did. Certainly doesnt mean that they have the ability to bring the country out of recession either

Yeah whatever.
Your post appears measured, logical but underlying is the same old tune.
It's the terminology you are using that I believe gives away your true opinion.

You state you won't make a knee jerk reaction.
Another poster here was asking people not to vote in anger. :rolleyes:
Again it was a gerry collins style intoning of people to not vote for the other side.

Do you belief that ff government will bring us out of recession.
So far they have done nothing to point to that, in fact they have doen the opposite or have you missed fact that coughlan hasn't jumped at chance of ensuring Ryan Air jobs come to this country ?

ff ran governments that turned the country into one massive house building economy and the consequences of that are that the hugely increased public spending can no longer be covered, our major banks have gone bust (technically the big ones are insolvent and would be bust without government taxpayers money) and huge numbers of individuals are now carrying some of the greatest levels of personal debt in the western world.

I hope to God you are never on a jury because I dread to think how you view facts.

What exactly would ff have to do for you not to vote for them and to consider voting for the other opposition parties ?


PS glad to hear you haven't voted for lowry.

Liam Byrne

jmayo wrote: »

It's the terminology you are using that I believe gives away your true opinion.

I couldn't help thinking that too.

The auto-negative is a bit of a giveaway :

i certainly wont be using the logic that because they didnt get the chance to feck up the country then they must be better than the ones that did

Actual logic would imply that you wouldn't give the crowd that did feck up the chance to do so again.

And the blatant assumption that "giving them [ FG ] a chance" would have been "giving them a chance to feck up the country" is crazy. What about not giving FF the chance to repeat their f-ups ?

How the feck FF apologists expect us to ignore the fact that FF "fecked up the country" and still expect us to assume that FG would have is ridiculous.

Yes, there's an unknown there. But as people say "better the devil you know"; unlike the apologists, though, the fact that "you know the devil fecked up the country" means that all logic shows that you don't let him do it again.

Personally, I'd absolutely LOVE if FF had to sort out their own mess, in a "if you trash the place, you can feckin' well clean up after yourself" kinda way.

But their unwillingness to admit their complicity in the crash, and their unwillingness to make "the ACTUAL tough decisions" in terms of corruption, ethics, fairness, bank appointments, safeguards for taxpayers, openness, transparency, balance, and a whole host of other issues has me looking at the bigger picture......my hope for "karma" takes second place to the welfare of the country.

Dempsey

jmayo wrote: »

Yeah whatever.
Your post appears measured, logical but underlying is the same old tune.
It's the terminology you are using that I believe gives away your true opinion.

You state you won't make a knee jerk reaction.
Another poster here was asking people not to vote in anger. :rolleyes:
Again it was a gerry collins style intoning of people to not vote for the other side.

Do you belief that ff government will bring us out of recession.
So far they have done nothing to point to that, in fact they have doen the opposite or have you missed fact that coughlan hasn't jumped at chance of ensuring Ryan Air jobs come to this country ?

ff ran governments that turned the country into one massive house building economy and the consequences of that are that the hugely increased public spending can no longer be covered, our major banks have gone bust (technically the big ones are insolvent and would be bust without government taxpayers money) and huge numbers of individuals are now carrying some of the greatest levels of personal debt in the western world.

I hope to God you are never on a jury because I dread to think how you view facts.

What exactly would ff have to do for you not to vote for them and to consider voting for the other opposition parties ?


PS glad to hear you haven't voted for lowry.

Why do you keep rambling on about Fianna Fail to me? I didnt vote them in.

If I was on a jury? Love the arrogance and holier than thou attitude you have to anyone that doesnt agree with your opinion. Not surprised though.

Again, I never said I was voting for FF or any party. As I stated several times already, I HAVENT DECIDED ON ANYTHING. Can you get your big head around that?

Dempsey

Actual logic would imply that you wouldn't give the crowd that did feck up the chance to do so again.

And the blatant assumption that "giving them [ FG ] a chance" would have been "giving them a chance to feck up the country" is crazy. What about not giving FF the chance to repeat their f-ups ?

How the feck FF apologists expect us to ignore the fact that FF "fecked up the country" and still expect us to assume that FG would have is ridiculous.

Yes, there's an unknown there. But as people say "better the devil you know"; unlike the apologists, though, the fact that "you know the devil fecked up the country" means that all logic shows that you don't let him do it again.

Personally, I'd absolutely LOVE if FF had to sort out their own mess, in a "if you trash the place, you can feckin' well clean up after yourself.

But their unwillingness to admit their complicity in the crash, and their unwillingness to make "the ACTUAL tough decisions" in terms of corruption, ethics, fairness, openness, transparency, balance, and a whole host of other issues has me looking at the bigger picture......my hope for "karma" takes second place to the welfare of the country.

Another FG diehard, desperate to see their party in power

Could you both actually read my posts or stop quoting me because I'm sick of your pro-FG rants

Liam Byrne

Dempsey wrote: »

Another FG diehard, desperate to see their party in power

:rolleyes:

100% WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!

Zero party allegience here WHATSOEVER, mate! Just looking for the best and least-corrupt people for the job.

It's typical, though.....if you have an objective view of the facts, and a logical "that's FF out, because of their actions and incompetence", someone always throws in this red herring.

Would a "Die Hard" say that FG are poor, but unfortunately are the best option that we have ?

Because I've said that a few times.

Of course, those being facts they're probably not relevant to you.

Dempsey

You continually make the assumption that I'm a FF supporter. I never said I did or was going to vote for FF yet you keep jumping in feet first rambling on about FF failures. I know their failures, I dont need boards.ie or you to know them.

Of course, those being facts they're probably not relevant to you.

Why is that exactly?

Liam Byrne

Dempsey wrote: »

You continually make the assumption that I'm a FF supporter. I never said I did or was going to vote for FF yet you keep jumping in feet first rambling on about FF failures. I know their failures, I dont need boards.ie or you to know them.

I've made that assumption based on the content of your posts, and phrases like "because they didnt get the chance to feck up the country then they must be better than the ones that did"

Why do you take the default position that anyone other than FF would have fecked up the country ?

FF did, so of course they should be judged based on that.

FG or Labour didn't, and there's no logical case for assuming that they would have. It's certainly a possibility, but by "not giving them a chance", or assuming [ claiming ? ] that they would, and voicing a "probably guilty without any proof" scenario, then you're automatically supporting the status quo and therefore FF.

That's logic.

On the other hand, I've posted that I'm stuck between FG & Labour; given the links to the unions, I would have edged towards FG, but their silence re O'Donoghue threw me and therefore I might yet vote Labour, as Gilmore has at least proven himself as capable of rocking the self-interested status quo......

All of those posts are available here on boards, so there is absolutely no basis on which to claim I am an FG supporter - "die hard" or otherwise.

Laminations

Dempsey wrote: »

Why do you keep rambling on about Fianna Fail to me? I didnt vote them in.

Lol. People are taking issue because you haven't ruled them out. No one is expecting you to have completely decided who you will vote for but you should know who you wont vote for. Example, is sinn fein still amongst your considerations? They are always out of bounds for me because of their history/track record. Its like being offered a choice of food, one item you've tasted and its made you very sick- tastes like sh!t. The other choices may make you ill or they may not. Its logical to go for one of the relatively unknowns as assuming the sh!t sandwich will suddenly become a chicken panini is delusion. You are scratching your chin still considering your options, people are wondering why you haven't limited said options.

And before you accuse me of being a blind follower i'll tell you i'm not a member of any party. I'm a swinging voter but i know a sh!t sandwich when i see one. FF may get my vote in the future but i know it'll take time for them to truly change and clear ranks and suffer the consequences of their self made downfall

trapsagenius

Tommy Bateman wrote: »

He sure is , and hes as tough as an old boot. He will lead the party to another victory, helped thanks to some of them blueshirts and greenies throwing hissy fits. Cowen is untameable in his toughness and with clever Lenny by his side, those velvet wearing pinkos in opposition don't stand chance.

Christ man, what age are you??

Laminations wrote: »

Lol. People are taking issue because you haven't ruled them out. No one is expecting you to have completely decided who you will vote for but you should know who you wont vote for. Example, is sinn fein still amongst your considerations? They are always out of bounds for me because of their history/track record. Its like being offered a choice of food, one item you've tasted and its made you very sick- tastes like sh!t. The other choices may make you ill or they may not. Its logical to go for one of the relatively unknowns as assuming the sh!t sandwich will suddenly become a chicken panini is delusion. You are scratching your chin still considering your options, people are wondering why you haven't limited said options.

One that that I've noticed is many people talk about looking at a party's "history" on this forum, before deciding whether or not to vote for them.While I accept that the current government have not lived up to many people's expectations, if you really looked at all of history wouldn't you accept that FF have consistently done a better job than FG in office?I mean, no FG lead administration has won consecutive elections(if you don't count Cumann na nGaedhal, which I don't).Compare the calibre of Taoisigh such as Dev,Lemass and Reynolds to men like Cosgrave and Fitzgerald.And while FF have led weak governments as well, I think history does show them to be more able in office than FG.

That said, I'd still understand if people wanted to vote out the current government.

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

While I accept that the current government have not lived up to many people's expectations, if you really looked at all of history wouldn't you accept that FF have consistently done a better job than FG in office?

That's a candidate for "understatement of the century"!

To be honest, they exceeded my expectations; I expected some corruption and incompetence, but got far more than I expected.

As for the "consistently done a better job" - the answer is no.

FG and Labour have regularly come in to do cleanup jobs after the electorate get sick of FF landing us in the ****, but for some unknown reason, as soon as the economy is tidied up a bit, FF get voted in to ride the coat-tails and rape the economy again - privatising key resources and semi-state companies, bailing out corrupt institutions (it was AIB on it's own last time, if I remember correctly) and generally appearing to be successful in the short-term but being 100% incompetent (or unwilling) at managing the economy longer-term and setting us up for a decent future.

We need a complete change, with no parties, and people who actually see the role as a public service and want to create a better Ireland for ALL, not just themselves and their mates.

Laminations

trapsagenius wrote: »

Christ man, what age are you??



One that that I've noticed is many people talk about looking at a party's "history" on this forum, before deciding whether or not to vote for them.While I accept that the current government have not lived up to many people's expectations, if you really looked at all of history wouldn't you accept that FF have consistently done a better job than FG in office?I mean, no FG lead administration has won consecutive elections(if you don't count Cumann na nGaedhal, which I don't).Compare the calibre of Taoisigh such as Dev,Lemass and Reynolds to men like Cosgrave and Fitzgerald.And while FF have led weak governments as well, I think history does show them to be more able in office than FG.

That said, I'd still understand if people wanted to vote out the current government.

I agree to a degree. But there is a difference between recent history (form) and actual history. If i was alive in the years of cosgrove or lemass FF could have been assured of my vote but its gone downhill for the party and its ethics ever since cj haughey. The standards a party sets for its members is very important to me.
And thank you for admitting that it is at least understandable that people want rid of this government

trapsagenius

Liam Byrne wrote: »

FG and Labour have regularly come in to do cleanup jobs after the electorate get sick of FF landing us in the ****, but for some unknown reason, as soon as the economy is tidied up a bit, FF get voted in to ride the coat-tails and rape the economy again - privatising key resources and semi-state companies, bailing out corrupt institutions (it was AIB on it's own last time, if I remember correctly) and generally appearing to be successful in the short-term but being 100% incompetent (or unwilling) at managing the economy longer-term and setting us up for a decent future.

We need a complete change, with no parties and people who actually see the role as a public service and want to create a better Ireland for ALL, not just themselves and their mates.

I'm talking about in the history of the Irish state since 1922 NOT in the last 20/25 years.And could you give me an example of the "clean-up jobs"?Like I said in my previous post,FF have led weak administrations and done damage but off the top of my head I can't think of one occasion when the economy was in dire straits where FG considerably improved it.

trapsagenius

Laminations wrote: »

I agree to a degree. But there is a difference between recent history (form) and actual history. If i was alive in the years of cosgrove or lemass FF could have been assured of my vote but its gone downhill for the party and its ethics ever since cj haughey. The standards a party sets for its members is very important to me.
And thank you for admitting that it is at least understandable that people want rid of this government

Dead right about Haughey and ethics.Like one previous poster said, one of the worst things that ever happened to FF was him beating Colley for the leadership.

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

And could you give me an example of the "clean-up jobs"?Like I said in my previous post,FF have led weak administrations and done damage but off the top of my head I can't think of one occasion when the economy was in dire straits where FG considerably improved it.

I wasn't implying that the economy was in such dire straits, or that they "considerably" improved it.

You said it yourself "FF have led weak administrations and done damage" and if FG even slightly "improved it", then that's a good enough example, and it's based on your own sentence.

trapsagenius wrote: »

I'm talking about in the history of the Irish state since 1922 NOT in the last 20/25 years

I've only been around for 39 of those, so can't comment.

And I wouldn't really expect to comment, because we're delving into blinkered party politics again.....whoever was around in 1922 - and what they believed in - is irrelevant in terms of current membership and their actions and beliefs.

I mean, you'd hardly consider Germany's actions in in 1922 or 1945 representative of what they'd do now ?

Even in a shorter term, I would have initially supported the PDs to the hilt based on O'Malley, but I was glad to see the back of them for a finish because they didn't keep to that party ethos; they ironically came to represent over-commercialism/privatisation and propping up corruption - and that was only over the space of roughly two decades.

So - unfortunately for FF - the only relevant time period is the last 20 - 25 years.

jmayo

Dempsey wrote: »

Why do you keep rambling on about Fianna Fail to me? I didnt vote them in.

If I was on a jury? Love the arrogance and holier than thou attitude you have to anyone that doesnt agree with your opinion. Not surprised though.

Again, I never said I was voting for FF or any party. As I stated several times already, I HAVENT DECIDED ON ANYTHING. Can you get your big head around that?

Because if you look at your posts you are hinting, nay saying that FG (which would also mean Labour I would guess) probably would have done just as bad a job.
There is no proof of that unless you can somehow pull us all into a parallel universe where Noonan won the 2002 election or bertie was never born.

This is just not targetted at you dempsey but lots of other posters around here.
What I find amazing is that ff made such a cock of the economy from 2001 onwards, they have made such a cock out of the crisis since 2007 and yet people think that they deserve a chance because the other crowd MAY have done something similar if they had the very same choices and chances.

That is a big leap to make.
One side actually did make a cock out of everything and the other side may have made a cock out of everything.

FG in particular, and Labour to a lesser degree, are affetcively being labelled as being equally culpable for the mess as ff, becuase they MAY have done it if they had a chance.
That is such a ridiculous deduction.

That also applies to corruption unethical behaviour of politicans because it is better for ff if everyone is tarred with the same brush.

And yet you still would possibly vote for the ones who actually factually did the damage.

This isn't Minority Report or some such dream world where people can be found guilty of something they MAY DO.

That was why I was quesitoning you about being on a jury.

Dempsey wrote: »

You continually make the assumption that I'm a FF supporter. I never said I did or was going to vote for FF yet you keep jumping in feet first rambling on about FF failures. I know their failures, I dont need boards.ie or you to know them.

Why is that exactly?

See above posts.
I guess I am a FG supporter since as I spelled out before they are the party that probably best represents my views, not all of them mind.
I am not nor never have been a member.

Also they are best chance of getting what I view as the most dispicable party of morally corrupt (if not corrupt in the true meaning of the word), unethical, inept bunch of chancers that we have ever had the misfortune of being governed by out of office.

I voted FG and Labour at last general election and misguidedly even gave Greens a vote.
I will vote FG and Labour at the next election as well since even if ff manage to swing things aroudn soemwhat (which looks abnout as lilkely as me winning gold at Olympics) they deserve to get their asses kicked for the mess that has gone before.

trapsagenius wrote: »

Christ man, what age are you??

One that that I've noticed is many people talk about looking at a party's "history" on this forum, before deciding whether or not to vote for them.While I accept that the current government have not lived up to many people's expectations, if you really looked at all of history wouldn't you accept that FF have consistently done a better job than FG in office?I mean, no FG lead administration has won consecutive elections(if you don't count Cumann na nGaedhal, which I don't).Compare the calibre of Taoisigh such as Dev,Lemass and Reynolds to men like Cosgrave and Fitzgerald.And while FF have led weak governments as well, I think history does show them to be more able in office than FG.

That said, I'd still understand if people wanted to vote out the current government.

Ah jeeze we can go back to 1922 or 1940 and the personnel have changed which makes a big difference.
Which Cosgrave, because I actually think one of the best governments this country ever had was the first one.
It nurtured and adopted democratic institutions when it could have gone other ways just after the civil war.
It also rolled such fantastic schemes as the Ardnacrusha Hydro scheme.
We didn't have such pushes forward again until the 60s when O'Malley opended up education.

It handed over power to their former enemy in 1931 when it could have tried to hold onto power.
Sadly I think all the succeeding governments have failed to recognise the huge contribution this government made to our fledgling state.

paddyland

trapsagenius wrote: »

I'm talking about in the history of the Irish state since 1922 NOT in the last 20/25 years.And could you give me an example of the "clean-up jobs"?Like I said in my previous post,FF have led weak administrations and done damage but off the top of my head I can't think of one occasion when the economy was in dire straits where FG considerably improved it.

What about when Haughey promised the sun, moon and stars to sort out the economy, and did NOTHING only make it worse, until the day Alan Dukes of FG handed his head over on a plate to see the nation right? Pretty selfless, wouldn't you say?

Dempsey

Why do you take the default position that anyone other than FF would have fecked up the country ?

I didnt, you jumped in with that. I know what they have done and I'm not defending them. Maybe you should read my posts properly before you get a rush of blood to the head and tell me what Fianna Fail have done.

Laminations wrote: »

Lol. People are taking issue because you haven't ruled them out. No one is expecting you to have completely decided who you will vote for but you should know who you wont vote for. Example, is sinn fein still amongst your considerations? They are always out of bounds for me because of their history/track record. Its like being offered a choice of food, one item you've tasted and its made you very sick- tastes like sh!t. The other choices may make you ill or they may not. Its logical to go for one of the relatively unknowns as assuming the sh!t sandwich will suddenly become a chicken panini is delusion. You are scratching your chin still considering your options, people are wondering why you haven't limited said options.

And before you accuse me of being a blind follower i'll tell you i'm not a member of any party. I'm a swinging voter but i know a sh!t sandwich when i see one. FF may get my vote in the future but i know it'll take time for them to truly change and clear ranks and suffer the consequences of their self made downfall

I havent ruled anything out or in because I have put much thought into it at all. I'm sick to the back teeth of listening to detailed discussions about NAMA, Banks & the recession etc. I'll think about it when I have to make a decision/vote based on whats happened.

I keep getting accused of being a FF supporter despite several times saying that I didnt vote for them and no plans to do so. So if people want to label me, I'll label them and see how they like it. Maybe these people labeling me should go back and read what I originally posted in this thread as they've clearly not taken in what I said.

Red_Marauder

paddyland wrote: »

What about when Haughey promised the sun, moon and stars to sort out the economy, and did NOTHING only make it worse, until the day Alan Dukes of FG handed his head over on a plate to see the nation right? Pretty selfless, wouldn't you say?

Presuming you're talking about the Tallaght Strategy, surely you are contradicting yourself.

Fine Gael supported Haughey's economic recovery package - which you say was NOTHING (capitalised) and only made everything worse.

How did Haughey do nothing positive, if Alan Dukes' support for him as you say "(saw) the nation right"

Rookster

There is only one reason I would vote FF again. Enda Kenny!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Otherwise, never again.

paddyland

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Presuming you're talking about the Tallaght Strategy, surely you are contradicting yourself.

Fine Gael supported Haughey's economic recovery package - which you say was NOTHING (capitalised) and only made everything worse.

How did Haughey do nothing positive, if Alan Dukes' support for him as you say "(saw) the nation right"

Haughey did nothing to balance this economy throughout the most part of his tenure. Then Alan Dukes offered the Tallaght strategy, getting the country back in the right direction, and sacrificing his own career in the process. A commendable action, squandered by subsequent generations of FF corruption. What's unclear about that?

jmayo

Rookster wrote: »

There is only one reason I would vote FF again. Enda Kenny!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Otherwise, never again.

ah yes I don't like him, wouldn't go drinking with him, he doesn't come across good on the telly, so I will vote for the eejit that has screwed me over for the next 20 years and will probably result in me kids being on the dole or having to emigrate. :rolleyes:

Let me give you a few questions to ask yourself before you decide that Enda Kenny is not worth voting for and that ff are a better vote.

Has Enda Kenny been responsible for you having to take pay cut, because you were hit with pay levy and/or public sector pay cut/pension levy or worse still unemployment ?

Has Enda Kenny been responsible for you having to suffer because we have to bail out the entire financial system of the country ?

Has Enda Kenny been responsible for the fact that if you are unlucky enough to present yourself or a loved one at A&E that you are probably going to be there for anything upto 6 to 8 hours before getting treatment ?

Has Enda Kenny been responsible for the fact that you may have had to pay exhorbitant amount just to buy a home for yourself and your family, because every Tom Dick and Mary were encouraged by tax measures to buy extra gaffs on interest only mortgages to let to foreigners ?

Put in very simple terms.
HAS ENDA KENNY COST ME MONEY LIKE ff HAVE COST ME MONEY ?

If answer yes and you still vote ff, well I despair.

If answer no, then you are probably a well connected party member, inept former public servant or current banker.

Kenny has come across badly, has made gaffs on tv and has used a maniac grin for some f***ing reason but at least he hasn't been keeping a seat warm in Dublin castle for the last few years trying to explain why he didn't have a bank account, he hasn't been supporting a man who has either, he hasn't led a party that has firstly created the mess we are in and secondly made the mess even worse as they ineptly do nothing.

trapsagenius

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I wasn't implying that the economy was in such dire straits, or that they "considerably" improved it.

You said it yourself "FF have led weak administrations and done damage" and if FG even slightly "improved it", then that's a good enough example, and it's based on your own sentence.

I've only been around for 39 of those, so can't comment.

And I wouldn't really expect to comment, because we're delving into blinkered party politics again.....whoever was around in 1922 - and what they believed in - is irrelevant in terms of current membership and their actions and beliefs.

I mean, you'd hardly consider Germany's actions in in 1922 or 1945 representative of what they'd do now ?

Even in a shorter term, I would have initially supported the PDs to the hilt based on O'Malley, but I was glad to see the back of them for a finish because they didn't keep to that party ethos; they ironically came to represent over-commercialism/privatisation and propping up corruption - and that was only over the space of roughly two decades.

So - unfortunately for FF - the only relevant time period is the last 20 - 25 years.

I was simply making the point that people aren't looking at ALL of history when they talk about looking at "a party's history".They are referring to a party's recent history(which is fair enough).

And about the last 25 years, I think the 2 best administrations in that time was FF led by Haughey(Yes, Haughey, criminal and all that he was) from 87 to 89; and Reynolds with Labour from 92 to 94.

paddyland wrote: »

What about when Haughey promised the sun, moon and stars to sort out the economy, and did NOTHING only make it worse, until the day Alan Dukes of FG handed his head over on a plate to see the nation right? Pretty selfless, wouldn't you say?

Where did I say anything about Dukes?And I know Haughey was a crook so criticising him isn't offensive to me.But, yes it was very selfless.And in the end, Haughey did do a massive amount to sort out the economy, but only with the help of Dukes as you say.So saying Haughey did "nothing" is a bit harsh.Yes, his first 2 terms as Taoiseach were a disaster but he does deserve some credit for what he did between 1987 and 1989.

jmayo wrote: »

Ah jeeze we can go back to 1922 or 1940 and the personnel have changed which makes a big difference.
Which Cosgrave, because I actually think one of the best governments this country ever had was the first one.
It nurtured and adopted democratic institutions when it could have gone other ways just after the civil war.
It also rolled such fantastic schemes as the Ardnacrusha Hydro scheme.
We didn't have such pushes forward again until the 60s when O'Malley opended up education.

It handed over power to their former enemy in 1931 when it could have tried to hold onto power.
Sadly I think all the succeeding governments have failed to recognise the huge contribution this government made to our fledgling state.

Again, I was simply making the point that people aren't really referring to a party's "history" but merely to a party's recent history(and like I stated earlier, I'm fine with this)

And I was of course referring to Liam Cosgrave.(I said I didn't count Cumann na nGaedhal as FG remember?)But I agree with you that W.T Cosgrave was a very good President of the Executive Council and led a good government in a turbulent time.

Rookster

jmayo wrote: »

ah yes I don't like him, wouldn't go drinking with him, he doesn't come across good on the telly, so I will vote for the eejit that has screwed me over for the next 20 years and will probably result in me kids being on the dole or having to emigrate. :rolleyes:

Let me give you a few questions to ask yourself before you decide that Enda Kenny is not worth voting for and that ff are a better vote.

Has Enda Kenny been responsible for you having to take pay cut, because you were hit with pay levy and/or public sector pay cut/pension levy or worse still unemployment ?

Has Enda Kenny been responsible for you having to suffer because we have to bail out the entire financial system of the country ?

Has Enda Kenny been responsible for the fact that if you are unlucky enough to present yourself or a loved one at A&E that you are probably going to be there for anything upto 6 to 8 hours before getting treatment ?

Has Enda Kenny been responsible for the fact that you may have had to pay exhorbitant amount just to buy a home for yourself and your family, because every Tom Dick and Mary were encouraged by tax measures to buy extra gaffs on interest only mortgages to let to foreigners ?

Put in very simple terms.
HAS ENDA KENNY COST ME MONEY LIKE ff HAVE COST ME MONEY ?

If answer yes and you still vote ff, well I despair.

If answer no, then you are probably a well connected party member, inept former public servant or current banker.

Kenny has come across badly, has made gaffs on tv and has used a maniac grin for some f***ing reason but at least he hasn't been keeping a seat warm in Dublin castle for the last few years trying to explain why he didn't have a bank account, he hasn't been supporting a man who has either, he hasn't led a party that has firstly created the mess we are in and secondly made the mess even worse as they ineptly do nothing.[/

You have got me wrong. I despise Ahern and Cowen for what they did to this country. I know Enda Kenny is probably a decent enogh guy but I don't think he is capable of being Taoiseach. I think he will just roll over for Gilmore, and the Unions will be running the country again. You might as well give Jack O Connor the keys to Gov buildings now. If that is the alternative versus Brian Lenihan as Finance minister I would have to vote FF again.
If FG can find a capable leader then I would vote for alternative Gov.

Liam Byrne

Rookster wrote: »

the Unions will be running the country again

If FG can find a capable leader then I would vote for alternative Gov.

Fine in theory, until you factor in the fact that FF don't have a capable leader, and have already ruined the country.

So on both points, you've nothing to lose by trying an alternative.

jmayo

Rookster wrote: »

jmayo wrote: »

You have got me wrong. I despise Ahern and Cowen for what they did to this country. I know Enda Kenny is probably a decent enogh guy but I don't think he is capable of being Taoiseach. I think he will just roll over for Gilmore, and the Unions will be running the country again. You might as well give Jack O Connor the keys to Gov buildings now. If that is the alternative versus Brian Lenihan as Finance minister I would have to vote FF again.
If FG can find a capable leader then I would vote for alternative Gov.

So your reason for voting for ff if Kenny was in charge is you reckon that Gilmore would bully him and the unions would be in charge ?

You do know that there are more members in cabinet than one person.
Yes Kenny would be the cheif, but with Richard Bruton as finance minister then I think the economy would be in far safer hands than a ff government where the only member who has any credibility is suffering with a very serious illness which sorry to say this but is more often than not fatal.

I am not so sure about Gilmore.
I think Rabbit is quicker, more incisive and I think Ruari Quinn is way better, more moderate as well.
Gilmore is good at talking in public and since the other two main party leaders aren't he is being lauded as the new Julius Cesar of Irish politics.
Good God he is not in the same league as Joe Higgins nevermind the likes of the late John Kelly.

I do worry that for some unknown bloody reason that Labour would try and push Joan Burton into finance.
She is fine honest upstanding hard working, but God I would worry about her in finance.

Saying that I would rather Barney in finance than yet another ffer.

I think whoever gets in will have to make damm tough decisions and stick by them, else we would be Greece part deux.

And the Germans will be well sick of bailing people out by the time they have finished with Greece.
Hopefully they adopt different policies from the ones they used the last time they controlled the place.