Berlusconi 'dreams' of Israel becoming an EU member

Scofflaw

Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi began a three-day tour of Israel on Monday (1 February) by saying he wants the Jewish state to join the EU.

The Italian leader brought seven cabinet ministers along on the trip to underline the importance of bilateral ties.

"This shows that we consider Israel one of the European countries, and you, Benjamin, you know - because I told you years ago and reiterated in our meeting in Cernobbio near Lake Como - that as long as I am one of the shapers of politics, my greatest dream is to include Israel among the European Union countries," Mr Berlusconi said at a welcoming ceremony with his Israeli counterpart, Benjamin Netanyahu.

The Italian premier said Italy and Israel have an affinity because of their place in history: "We are here to show our recognition and our pride in the fact that we are part of a Judeo-Christian culture that is the basis for European culture."

Source

Now this might be pie in the sky stuff that conveniently distracts from Berlusconi's other adventures, but I'd be interested to see what those who oppose Turkish EU accession on the basis of geography and borders make of this.

cordially,
Scofflaw

DrumSteve

it would be interesting to see. although if they did join where we the rest of the european countries stand if israel decided they'd had enough of iran and so forth...?

it'd definitely raise more problems than it would solve however it would give the EU a foothold in the middle east.

meditraitor

You got to love Berlusconi, he's crazy as a march hare. As for Isreal becoming an EU member I think if at all its a long way off.
The EU is probably going to go through a stabalisation period with its current members for a couple of decades, Turkey and Isreal have a crap load of baggage that we dont really need it at present.

2c

ei.sdraob

Ive no problems with them becoming a member

but only if they finally recognize Palestine as a state and withdraw to their borders, and Palestine must become a member at same time

once Palestine becomes a properly recognized country and bother places are in EU, most of the current fighting becomes moot

tho in reality that wont happen ...

Macha

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Ive no problems with them becoming a member

but only if they finally recognize Palestine as a state and withdraw to their borders, and Palestine must become a member at same time

once Palestine becomes a properly recognized country and bother places are in EU, most of the current fighting becomes moot

tho in reality that wont happen ...

Doesn't the EU recognise Palestine as occupied territory? And is there any existing requirement for applicant countries to adhere to certain foreign policies?

ei.sdraob

taconnol wrote: »

Doesn't the EU recognise Palestine as occupied territory? And is there any existing requirement for applicant countries to adhere to certain foreign policies?

yes i believe thats currently leading to trouble over Turkey & Cyprus etc


you know if it makes them stop fighting and 2 state solution is recognized by all, i say why not let them in

i dont see why EU has to be limited to a geographic area, since its aims are peace and prosperity and that EU has certainly delivered to its members

Boskowski

They would be domineering in no time - let's face it, Israel has an attitude problem - and drag all those problems they have into Europe.
Also, they're not actually located in Europe. Who's next? Singapur?

cnocbui

I'd like to nominate Saudi Arabia. They are far wealthier than Israel, would be great. :rolleyes:

ballsymchugh

didn't morocco have ideas about joining in the mid 80's but were politely told that it's a european thing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco_and_the_European_Union

great point on palestine though. would israel bite it's tongue and pull back to 1967 borders to join the eu? hmmm..

ei.sdraob

realcam wrote: »

Who's next? Singapur?

whats wrong with Singapore

cnocbui wrote: »

I'd like to nominate Saudi Arabia. They are far wealthier than Israel, would be great. :rolleyes:

we surely could use with their money to bail us out

thebman

He can keep dreaming IMO.

Israel today is nowhere near ready to join the EU IMO. It has massive problems and a public image problem the size of its massive problems for many people in the EU.

I'm not sure I could ever be happy with them joining it. Certainly the EU will need to under go rebranding if they join

ChocolateSauce

Berlusconi also wants Russia in the EU sooner rather than later.

Although I wouldn't rule out EU membership on the basis of geography, there are quite a number of reasons I would rule it out for Israel right now.

Maybe someday, but not any time soon.

Flamed Diving

They are a beacon of light for democracy in the Middle East. They should be allowed in immediately.

dvpower

Flamed Diving wrote: »

They are a beacon of light for democracy in the Middle East. They should be allowed in immediately.

Are you serious or did you miss a sarcasm tag?

Anyway, there are (at least) two things wrong with this story.
1. I don't think Israel want to join the EU.
2. People don't take Berlusconi seriously. He's talking out of his hat.

dvpower

Interesting snippet from the article:

But a poll by the Konrad Adenauer Stiftung in April last year said 75 percent of Israeli Jews and 40 percent of Israeli Arabs would like to become part of the union.

Who'd have thunk it!

johngalway

Turkey or Israel?

Neither thanks

HalloweenJack

I think if Israel wanted to join they should go through a five-year period of withdrawal, non-violence and non-interference in the Palestine to show they are serious. Also, Israel should be subject to similar restrictions that the newer EU members have been subject to. No special compensation should be made for the fact that historically Jews have suffered.

Or Palestine should be allowed join as well.

Overheal

Thats why its a Dream and not a Proposal - it is decades off.

MLK had a dream you know.

ChocolateSauce

Israel is a beacon of human rights and democracy in the middle east; it's easy for a dim light to shine in the dark.

HalloweenJack

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Israel is a beacon of human rights and democracy in the middle east.

Please explain this statement.

SkepticOne

Is there any news here other than Berlusconi mouthing off?

evercloserunion

Not going to happen.

After decades of work, human rights protection is finally a large part of the EU agenda. Why would we throw that away now?

Unpossible

Scofflaw wrote: »

Now this might be pie in the sky stuff that conveniently distracts from Berlusconi's other adventures, but I'd be interested to see what those who oppose Turkish EU accession on the basis of geography and borders make of this.

I would be against Israel joining the EU, just as much as I am against Turkey joining. I don't see either country as being European, and thats ignoring the various problems in each country.

Corega

Last night I dreamt that I shagged Tricia Helfer, in reality though it's not going to happen.

ei.sdraob

Corega wrote: »

Last night I dreamt that I shagged Tricia Helfer, in reality though it's not going to happen.

Berlusconi is that thou?

recedite

I thought they were already in the EU; I'm sure I saw them in the eurovision song contest.:D

ChocolateSauce

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Please explain this statement.

chocolatesauce wrote:

it's easy for a dim light to shine in the dark.

Want me to break this one down too?

HalloweenJack

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Want me to break this one down too?

No, I just want you to explain why you think Israel has a good human rights record at all, regardless of where it is situated.

ChocolateSauce

HalloweenJack wrote: »

good human rights record .

Don't put words in my mouth, and don't pretend to be ignorant of my point.

theghost

Unpossible wrote: »

I would be against Israel joining the EU, just as much as I am against Turkey joining. I don't see either country as being European, and thats ignoring the various problems in each country.

+1. Neither Turkey nor Israel is a European country.

Scofflaw

SkepticOne wrote: »

Is there any news here other than Berlusconi mouthing off?

Not as such - after all, Israel is unlikely to become a candidate any year soon - but there's certainly room for a discussion.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Mahatma coat

No, Yer Wrong scofflaw, Even Discussing an Idea Like this gives credence to the Nutters who think its a good Idea, if no one Objects strenuously this time then its a slight victory, then they roll out the same notion in a year, but with someone a bit more respected than Silvio, and so on and so Forth until they have garenered enough support for this Retarded concept.

Israel in the EU? NO, NEVER, if I have to take up arms myself to stop it.

ChocolateSauce

Mahatma coat wrote: »

No, Yer Wrong scofflaw, Even Discussing an Idea Like this gives credence to the Nutters who think its a good Idea, if no one Objects strenuously this time then its a slight victory, then they roll out the same notion in a year, but with someone a bit more respected than Silvio, and so on and so Forth until they have garenered enough support for this Retarded concept.

Israel in the EU? NO, NEVER, if I have to take up arms myself to stop it.

Never? Then either you are a militant puritan geographer or a Jew hater.

What if they clean up their act?

kmick

I for one welcome our new Israeli overlords.

Mahatma coat

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Never? Then either you are a militant puritan geographer or a Jew hater.

What if they clean up their act?

If they clean up their act then they should have no problems forming an equevilent union with their neighbours

magma69

This will not happen for a very long time, if it ever happens at all. Israel have not a hope of being accepted into the EU until they sort out their domestic business. Even after that, they are still a liability who are prone to war/aggression. Europe has done excellently to remain relatively peaceful since WW2. Israel joining could compromise that.

You can never say never, but it will be decades before this idea is given any serious contemplation. We all know decades are a long time in the world of politics and nobody knows what is around the corner.

Personally, I don't think it will happen. Israel have a better chance of becoming the 51st State of America.

recedite

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

militant puritan geographer

What if they clean up their act?

Theres only one thing worse than a militant puritan geographer, and thats a religious nutter militant puritan geographer.
Who was it again, that dreamed up the concept of Israel ?

ChocolateSauce

Mahatma coat wrote: »

If they clean up their act then they should have no problems forming an equevilent union with their neighbours

So the former then.

I've never met someone who would take up arms against people who have different opinions of geography before. Nice to meet you.

recedite wrote:

that dreamed up the concept of Israel ?

The people who dreamed up the concept of Israel died a very long time ago. I'm more concerned about how the people living there today behave.

djpbarry

Flamed Diving wrote: »

They are a beacon of light for democracy in the Middle East. They should be allowed in immediately.

If Israel are to be admitted immediately on such a basis, then surely Turkey should be too? Is Israel more democratic than Turkey? Is democracy the only stick we should be measuring by?

Mahatma coat wrote: »

If they clean up their act then they should have no problems forming an equevilent union with their neighbours

Suppose said hypothetical equivalent union wishes to join or union at some point in the future?

thebman

I don't really care about any race/religion arguments but do feel the Geography could pose a problem.

I think the benefits would be a lot less than for neighboring countries in the EU. I think it would be better to form their own union with neighboring countries if they can set aside their differences which would be for everyones benefit too. When the union gets closer to the EU then the two can look at offering special barrier free trading between the two unions and consider merging into a new identity at that time.

I think the EU has enough problems at the moment without adding a country that is so far away and has human rights issues that they need to sort out. So no time soon IMO.

Maybe in a decade or two. I don't think expansion should be rushed anyway. Better slow and steady IMO and make sure we are happy with the union where it is before accepting new members.

conorhal

Lets face it, I'd take Israel over Romania or an intractable crap-hole like Lithuania in a heart beat, they meet the GDP, social, legal and infrastructural criteria far better than most of the ex-soviet bloc nations that got in on the last round of expansion and they are for the most part ethnically European. Plus, free travel and migration might ease tensions over the availability of land in that part of the middle east considerably and lessen the isolationism and that ‘our backs are to the wall and we’ve nowhere to go but straight at the enemy’ attitude that exists there.

Plus Israeli's are on the whole a smart innovative lot that have a lot of R&D in the sciences going on and would be a culturally positive influence on Europe (It would be nice to see them accepted as opposed to persecuted on this continent for a change)

BUT then there's the Palestinian question, and I really can't see then joining without resolving that conflict, and since I see absolutely no chance of resolving that conflict......

thebman

conorhal wrote: »

over Romania or an intractable crap-hole like Lithuania in a heart beat, they meet the GDP, social, legal and infrastructural criteria far better than most of the ex-soviet bloc nations that got in on the last round of expansion

And how many people were thinking that as Ireland was being accepted in?

I prefer the idea of the EU bringing up struggling economies through helping improve their infrastructure than trying to get already developed ones to sign up that are miles away.

If you take somewhere that has a poor economy and invest in it to bring it up, there are good benefits to this as it was a market your products could not be sold in that can now be sold in and in the long run you should make a return on your investment (assuming the nations don't do something stupid like bankrupt themselves :P).

Scofflaw

conorhal wrote: »

Lets face it, I'd take Israel over Romania or an intractable crap-hole like Lithuania in a heart beat, they meet the GDP, social, legal and infrastructural criteria far better than most of the ex-soviet bloc nations that got in on the last round of expansion and they are for the most part ethnically European. Plus, free travel and migration might ease tensions over the availability of land in that part of the middle east considerably and lessen the isolationism and that ‘our backs are to the wall and we’ve nowhere to go but straight at the enemy’ attitude that exists there.

Plus Israeli's are on the whole a smart innovative lot that have a lot of R&D in the sciences going on and would be a culturally positive influence on Europe (It would be nice to see them accepted as opposed to persecuted on this continent for a change)

BUT then there's the Palestinian question, and I really can't see then joining without resolving that conflict, and since I see absolutely no chance of resolving that conflict......

The Eastern European countries had to be let in in a hurry, though, before they fell back into Russian orbit - it's also why Nice was a bit of a bodge job, and needed Lisbon as a patch.

cordially,
Scofflaw

recedite

conorhal wrote: »

they are for the most part ethnically European.

They share a common ethnic origin with the Palestinians.

djpbarry wrote: »

Suppose said hypothetical equivalent union wishes to join or union at some point in the future?

In the far distant future various economic unions,American,African, European,Asian, Middle Eastern etc. might all sign up for a planned computerised economy, providing maximum stability and productivity for everyones benefit.
(Yeah, I did get that from Isaac Asimov)

djpbarry

djpbarry wrote: »

Suppose said hypothetical equivalent union wishes to join our union at some point in the future?

I say 'hypothetical', but of course, such unions already exist, such as the Council of Arab Economic Unity. But then, I'm not sure whether they have a 'No Israeli's' policy, or if Israel's absence from such organisations is self-imposed. Probably a combination of the two I imagine.

Mahatma coat

I say 'hypothetical', but of course, such unions already exist, such as the Council of Arab Economic Unity. But then, I'm not sure whether they have a 'No Israeli's' policy, or if Israel's absence from such organisations is self-imposed. Probably a combination of the two I imagine.

I'm sure the other nations would love to Have Israel in the fold of their Union.

seeing as Israel is touted as the 'Only Democracy' in the region I wonder how they would get on with being Democratically outvoted???

conorhal

Scofflaw wrote: »

The Eastern European countries had to be let in in a hurry, though, before they fell back into Russian orbit - it's also why Nice was a bit of a bodge job, and needed Lisbon as a patch.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I agree that there was a perception that it had to bee done given the newly brash, confident and worryingly expansionist Russia, but it was too soon and may have done irreparable damage to the EU. The massive borrowing done in (at the time cheap) Euros by the east European countries has come back to haunt both their western lenders and the eastern borrowers leaving them with a debt hangover.
Couple that with the fact that some of the countries were allowed to accede to the EU without fulfilling many of the criteria for membership means that socially, legislatively as well as economically and politically you have countries that are going to cause huge social problems in Europe in the same manner that East Germany did for the West after unification, but unlike when Ireland when we joined in '73, Europe now don't really have the billions necessary to drag these economies up because they took too big a bite of the eastern European pie and are now in danger of choking on it, so instead we are simply offering them the oportunity to be outsourced sweatshop economies. We might have gotten away with it if the boom had continued and expansion had been limited to the few states that met the basic criteria but now we're looking at a Europe with several shanty town states on it's boarders.

Scofflaw

conorhal wrote: »

I agree that there was a perception that it had to bee done given the newly brash, confident and worryingly expansionist Russia, but it was too soon and may have done irreparable damage to the EU. The massive borrowing done in (at the time cheap) Euros by the east European countries has come back to haunt both their western lenders and the eastern borrowers leaving them with a debt hangover.
Couple that with the fact that some of the countries were allowed to accede to the EU without fulfilling many of the criteria for membership means that socially, legislatively as well as economically and politically you have countries that are going to cause huge social problems in Europe in the same manner that East Germany did for the West after unification, but unlike when Ireland when we joined in '73, Europe now don't really have the billions necessary to drag these economies up because they took too big a bite of the eastern European pie and are now in danger of choking on it, so instead we are simply offering them the oportunity to be outsourced sweatshop economies. We might have gotten away with it if the boom had continued and expansion had been limited to the few states that met the basic criteria but now we're looking at a Europe with several shanty town states on it's boarders.

I don't think, though, that there was any other choice. Also, if we look at the current crisis, it's old-established members who are having/creating the most difficulties - us, Greece, the UK, Spain - rather than the new members.

cordially,
Scofflaw

hinault

The original project was to unify (Western) Europe.
I would prefer to have seen the project stay within that mandate.

Instead the project seems hellbent on admitting all sorts, if Silvio is to be believed.

djpbarry

conorhal wrote: »

...Europe now don't really have the billions necessary to drag these economies up because they took too big a bite of the eastern European pie and are now in danger of choking on it, so instead we are simply offering them the oportunity to be outsourced sweatshop economies. We might have gotten away with it if the boom had continued and expansion had been limited to the few states that met the basic criteria but now we're looking at a Europe with several shanty town states on it's boarders.

Bit rich coming from the sinking basket case out in the Atlantic (that has been heavily dependent on FDI since joining the EU), don't you think?

hinault

djpbarry wrote: »

Bit rich coming from the sinking basket case out in the Atlantic (that has been heavily dependent on FDI since joining the EU), don't you think?

We've always been closer to Berlin than Boston.

Events have proven this.

And long may this continue.