Berlusconi 'dreams' of Israel becoming an EU member

conorhal

Scofflaw wrote: »

I don't think, though, that there was any other choice. Also, if we look at the current crisis, it's old-established members who are having/creating the most difficulties - us, Greece, the UK, Spain - rather than the new members.

cordially,
Scofflaw

It's the older more established states that are getting all the attention because they are euro members, but several of the Baltic EU members have already been to the IMF, Hungary, Latvia and Romania. There seems to be this odd schizophrenia among the core member states of France and Germany. They pushed the hardest to woo them and ensure the membership of the eastern bloc, but once done they just sort of shrugged and collectively decided to ignore them and wouldn't even let their citizens in the door. They seemed to do enlargement the same way America does military engagement, in a rush and with scant afterthought to what happens next.

evercloserunion

hinault wrote: »

The original project was to unify (Western) Europe.
I would prefer to have seen the project stay within that mandate.

Instead the project seems hellbent on admitting all sorts, if Silvio is to be believed.

Which he is not.

Scofflaw

conorhal wrote: »

It's the older more established states that are getting all the attention because they are euro members, but several of the Baltic EU members have already been to the IMF, Hungary, Latvia and Romania.

Fair point, but the very fact that they have done so with relatively little attention is indicative of how little that rocks the EU boat, partly because as you say:

conorhal wrote: »

There seems to be this odd schizophrenia among the core member states of France and Germany. They pushed the hardest to woo them and ensure the membership of the eastern bloc, but once done they just sort of shrugged and collectively decided to ignore them and wouldn't even let their citizens in the door. They seemed to do enlargement the same way America does military engagement, in a rush and with scant afterthought to what happens next.

The accession states are somewhat semi-detached, or at least some of them are. Places like Poland, Slovakia, the Czech Republic seem to be pulling along fairly solidly.

Yes, I think there was a rush to pull them in before they fell back into Russian orbit - several of them were clearly not ready for membership, and keeping them largely outside the euro mechanism and the internal movement area seems a reasonable compromise. The alternative - a new Russian sphere - does seem to me to be worse from the perspective of European countries.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Bottle_of_Smoke

No way. This is a country where ambulances won't take palestinians without special permission from police.

They won't compromise and continue to illegally occupy the west bank. I really wonder(and worry) what Israel would have to do to receive any kind of real sanctions from US or major European states.

hatrickpatrick

If Israel joined the EU I actually think I'd go somewhere else. Israel's government has committed countless war crimes, crimes against humanity, and quite frankly it sickens me when Iran is rebuffed for 'potentially' developing nuclear weapons when they have invaded no countries and caused very little international bloodshed over the last several years, while Israel has had nuclear weapons for years and no one says anything about it, even though Israel has committed acts of terrorism against innocent Palestinians and maintains an occupation which the UN, the EU, and even the fundamentally hypocritical and biased US government has declared illegal and demanded the deconstruction of.

Under the Lisbon treaty we are required to show solidarity when a fellow EU member is involved in a conflict. Not on your ****ing nelly.

wasper

Scofflaw wrote: »

Source

Now this might be pie in the sky stuff that conveniently distracts from Berlusconi's other adventures, but I'd be interested to see what those who oppose Turkish EU accession on the basis of geography and borders make of this.

cordially,
Scofflaw

They don't need to join the EU. Most Isreali Jews have second European or US passport. Also the EU to invite Israel to join it will mean the 20% Arab citizens will have the right to come here.

dlofnep

Could someone outline the benefits of Israel joining the EU to me for us as European citizens?

Scofflaw

dlofnep wrote: »

Could someone outline the benefits of Israel joining the EU to me for us as European citizens?

Heh - free travel area with Israel? Hm. More nuclear weapons? Hm. Land border with some amusingly questionable countries? Hm. Further US interference by proxy within the EU? Hm.

Slightly stuck, I'm afraid. But then, it's never really about what benefits the accession country brings to the EU - it's more what the EU brings them.

cordially,
Scofflaw

dlofnep

Scofflaw wrote: »

Heh - free travel area with Israel? Hm. More nuclear weapons? Hm. Land border with some amusingly questionable countries? Hm. Further US interference by proxy within the EU? Hm.

Slightly stuck, I'm afraid. But then, it's never really about what benefits the accession country brings to the EU - it's more what the EU brings them.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I hear where you're coming from. I think the eastern bloc being absorbed into the EU was to strengthen the EU, and weaken Russia. It made sense from a security standpoint. But yeah, I agree - absorbing Israel would bring about new complications and I certainly wouldn't be in favour of a country joining that doesn't adhere to international law and occupies another nation.

Scofflaw

dlofnep wrote: »

I hear where you're coming from. I think the eastern bloc being absorbed into the EU was to strengthen the EU, and weaken Russia. It made sense from a security standpoint.

I really don't think there was another option - even thinking outside the Cold War box, it would have been insane to have allowed all of Eastern Europe to fall back into the Russian sphere of influence. I've said before that one of the reasons for Lisbon was the rush to get Nice agreed in order to pull Eastern Europe on board. The timing fits absolutely - no rush through the Nineties, while Russia was still groping around on the floor trying to find its feet, then Putin, and suddenly bang! Nice - and everyone on board even if they were patently unready for it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

wasper

Scofflaw wrote: »

I really don't think there was another option - even thinking outside the Cold War box, it would have been insane to have allowed all of Eastern Europe to fall back into the Russian sphere of influence. I've said before that one of the reasons for Lisbon was the rush to get Nice agreed in order to pull Eastern Europe on board. The timing fits absolutely - no rush through the Nineties, while Russia was still groping around on the floor trying to find its feet, then Putin, and suddenly bang! Nice - and everyone on board even if they were patently unready for it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

What is wrong with coming under the influence of the Russians? They are capitalists after all. We are under the Americans influence & nobody seems to be bothered.
The eastern Europeans have more common with the Russians than with Ireland. They share the same Slavic background.

conorhal

wasper wrote: »

What is wrong with coming under the influence of the Russians? They are capitalists after all. We are under the Americans influence & nobody seems to be bothered.
The eastern Europeans have more common with the Russians than with Ireland. They share the same Slavic background.

What's wrong with Russian influence? Ask the former Eastern Bloc states and they will, from bitter experience, former and present (Viktor Yushchenko), explain that for you.
Russia is command capitalist economy like China (just run a little more informally by brown envelope), and lets not be kidding ourselves that Putin's leadership isn't as bad as previous cold war regimes.

Personally I don't think that there was an urgent need to bring on board the eastern states, I don't think that they were all that eager to fall back into Russia's orbit. It would have been better if the EU had treated them as client states or provided treaties like Iceland allowing for integration when they reached the point of eligibility and no sooner.
Foisting these states into the EU has done them and us no favor and I'm sure Russia have absolutely no desire for the return of Latvia, Romania and various other basket case states, in the current economic crisis they're not a problem Russia could be bothered with, now they are our problem. And they are a problem that we are steadfastly ignoring.
If Russia is expansionist in any direction it is eastwards, towards the gas and oil, and perhaps into Ukraine because of a traditional sense that it should be part of Russia. Their spent satellites have little to offer them now.

loumac

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If Israel joined the EU I actually think I'd go somewhere else. Israel's government has committed countless war crimes, crimes against humanity, and quite frankly it sickens me when Iran is rebuffed for 'potentially' developing nuclear weapons when they have invaded no countries and caused very little international bloodshed over the last several years, while Israel has had nuclear weapons for years and no one says anything about it, even though Israel has committed acts of terrorism against innocent Palestinians and maintains an occupation which the UN, the EU, and even the fundamentally hypocritical and biased US government has declared illegal and demanded the deconstruction of.

Under the Lisbon treaty we are required to show solidarity when a fellow EU member is involved in a conflict. Not on your ****ing nelly.

I totally agree. Especially after the assassination of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh by Mossad. Although the EU has its perks, being Irish right now means extra scrutiny of our hallowed passports. In all conscience how could anyone entertain the idea of Israel becoming an EU member state? Never mind the R&D; capitalism is having its biggest test since Roosevelt. Whatever fiscal benefits may exist it would be emerald suicide to allow a country like Israel to subordinate Ireland & other friendlies into global pariahs. Then there is Palestine, with a history like Ireland's. We at least got 26 counties back. They are still trying fighting while Israel illegally occupy and terrorise the West Bank. We would be hated by all of the Arab countries if we allowed Israel to join the EU. For a country that eats no swine, Israel is seriously lacking in the table manners department. Now would be a good time for 24 hour surveillance on Berlusconi. What indiscretion could he be trying to conceal with such a statement?

killer_cain

maybe 75% of jews in israel want to join the eu because the majority of jews living in israel are either european migrants or sons/daughters & grandson/granddaughters of european migrants!!

dlofnep

killer_cain wrote: »

maybe 75% of jews in israel want to join the eu because the majority of jews living in israel are either european migrants or sons/daughters & grandson/granddaughters of european migrants!!

They always have the option of moving to the EU if they want if they can obtain legal citizenship. But that's not a valid reason for Israel to join the EU.

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

They always have the option of moving to the EU if they want if they can obtain legal citizenship. But that's not a valid reason for Israel to join the EU.

Incorrect, that's a perfectly valid reason to welcome Israel into the EU.

EU would be enhanced by their membership and work ethic in my opinion.

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Incorrect, that's a perfectly valid reason to welcome Israel into the EU.

Thankfully, you have no say in how the EU operates.

If some citizens (and there are not many) of Israel want to move to the EU, that does not make it a valid reason for a country to join the EU. By your definition, we should let China join the EU also.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

EU would be enhanced by their membership and work ethic in my opinion.

No, it wouldn't.

The EU would be thrown into chaos, and would have to absorb the million and one problems that come with Israel. If Israel were even to be considered as a candidate (and they won't ever be), they would have to end their illegal occupation of Palestinian territories and clear up their UN record and demonstrate respect to the international community.

FlutterinBantam

Most of those resident in Israel have European ancestry, that is my point.

Despite coming under attack from adjoining areas harbouring terrorists, they have managed to create a viable and workable economy while their attackers live in a poverty of their own making.

Those are the qualities needed in the EU right now, not the permanent hand out and downtrodden mentality of people bereft if ideas and slaves to an idealogy which is outdated and finished as the flat earth theory.

meditraitor

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Most of those resident in Israel have European ancestry, that is my point..

If thats the case what are they doing in Isreal/Palestine? Think before you post!

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Despite coming under attack from adjoining areas harbouring terrorists, they have managed to create a viable and workable economy while their attackers live in a poverty of their own making..

The terrorists are a symtom of the zionist persecution, do we want the racists ideals of a few isrealis to throw the whole of europe into conflict?

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Those are the qualities needed in the EU right now, not the permanent hand out and downtrodden mentality of people bereft if ideas and slaves to an idealogy which is outdated and finished as the flat earth theory.

European morals and ethics although somewhat flawed are a great deal more humanistic than the present Isreali idealogy and could not be bent to facilitate the zionist colonialistic mindset. We are not compatible

Amhran Nua

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

they have managed to create a viable and workable economy while their attackers live in a poverty of their own making.

Well, with the help of massive annual subsidies from the US.

FlutterinBantam

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Most of those resident in Israel have European ancestry, that is my point.

meditraitor wrote: »

If thats the case what are they doing in Isreal/Palestine? Think before you post!

Most of those resident in the US have European ancestry, what are they doing in US?

Think before you reply.

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Most of those resident in Israel have European ancestry, that is my point.

That's not a very valid point. Most people in the Western hemisphere have European ancestry. It doesn't mean that they should be apart of the EU. If that was the case, the United States would be apart of the EU.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Despite coming under attack from adjoining areas harbouring terrorists, they have managed to create a viable and workable economy

Israel's economy is by large part, a functioning economy. Despite being in debt to the tune of 150 billion. I don't dispute that they have a good technologically driven work-force, but this once again is not a valid reason to include them in the EU.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

while their attackers live in a poverty of their own making.

Are you really that naive, or are you being purposefully obtuse?

I suppose the fact that Israel controls the borders, incurs restrictions on the ability to trade or work, destroyed their entire infrastructure - including a complex harbour project, destroyed important agricultural land and so forth has nothing to do with the poverty of Palestinians, right?

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Those are the qualities needed in the EU right now

We need Israel about as much as we need an appendix.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

not the permanent hand out and downtrodden mentality of people bereft if ideas and slaves to an idealogy which is outdated and finished as the flat earth theory.

You're aware at how absurd the above is, right?

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

That's not a very valid point. Most people in the Western hemisphere have European ancestry. It doesn't mean that they should be apart of the EU. If that was the case, the United States would be apart of the EU.

No, but it helps if they wish to apply.

dlofnep wrote: »

Israel's economy is by large part, a functioning economy. Despite being in debt to the tune of 150 billion. I don't dispute that they have a good technologically driven work-force, but this once again is not a valid reason to include them in the EU.

No, but it helps

dlofnep wrote: »

Are you really that naive, or are you being purposefully obtuse?

I suppose the fact that Israel controls the borders, incurs restrictions on the ability to trade or work, destroyed their entire infrastructure - including a complex harbour project, destroyed important agricultural land and so forth has nothing to do with the poverty of Palestinians, right?



We need Israel about as much as we need an appendix.



You're aware at how absurd the above is, right?

If I was I wouldn't have posted it.

Why is Israel the only fully functioning economy in the region, without the benefit of oil revenues?

Maybe you should spend some time in the 'empty quarter' of South Yemen and your idealistic fervour might be a tad blunted.

meditraitor

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Why is Israel the only fully functioning economy in the region, without the benefit of oil revenues?

.

The wholesale theft of water from palestinian and jordanian territories is one of the main reasons.

Water is gold in the middle east

FlutterinBantam

Theft

meditraitor

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Theft

It sure is,

Amhran Nua

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Why is Israel the only fully functioning economy in the region, without the benefit of oil revenues?

It has received over $100 billion in subsides from the US since 1949, and thats just the directly accountable ones, the actual figure is probably far higher. Its currently the largest recipient of foreign aid on the US books. Its the same idea as the US and Japan.

meditraitor

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Theft

I know you probably wont read(or if you do you wont see anything wrong) it but here it is anyway.

The key problem is the lack of water for Palestine that impedes its development and jeopardizes the long-term survival of its population. The current Palestinian water supply is restricted and limited by Israel; Israel refuses to acknowledge Palestinian water rights and adherence to international laws on water. The differences in annual per capita water consumption between the two populations testify to such inequality: Israeli’s water consumption is four to six times per capita higher than the Palestinians.



This disparity may be compared with population ratios where Israelis and Israeli settlers number 6.4 million people. In contrast, Palestinians number some 3.9 million, and yet Israel uses 83% of Palestinian water in the West Bank, leaving only 17% to Palestinians. Water has been central, together with such issues as Jerusalem, final frontier placement, Israeli settlements, Palestinian refugees and security, in Palestinian-Israeli negotiations since the early 1990s. To date, only modest steps towards reconciling conflicting views have been taken. In the September 1995 Oslo II Agreement, Israel recognized Palestinian water rights, which should have been negotiated in the permanent status negotiations that were to begin in May 1996 and settled by May 1999, but have yet to begin.

http://cejiss.org/articles/vol2-2/obidallah

sensibleken

i dont think we can ignore the geographic side of the arguement. for example free movement of goods, people and dervices would not be possible with a country like israel which is isolated both geographically and perhaps more significantely, politically.

I felt amused and slightly nauseous at what ould berlo said. i would never say never about membership because germany france and britain have reformed their nicking other countries policies (mostly) but not unless there is a catestrophic change in the constitution of that state.

also im waiting for the 'see!!! now we voted for lisbon isreal are getting in!!!' from some anti lisbon people. ooh fun.

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

No, but it helps if they wish to apply.

Not really - because the drawbacks of Israel joining the EU completely outweigh any positives (if any) of them joining.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Why is Israel the only fully functioning economy in the region, without the benefit of oil revenues?

I've explained the context of why their economy is better than the Palestinians. You've avoided that arguing any of my points. I didn't state that Israel's economy was not functional - it obviously is, due to a technology-lead workforce and great trade agreements with the US.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Maybe you should spend some time in the 'empty quarter' of South Yemen and your idealistic fervour might be a tad blunted.

What exactly is my idealistic "fervour" as you put it.

FlutterinBantam

Another one for your collection

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Another one for your collection

Not sure what the Armenian flag has to do with this thread.