Plans to make Maths more difficult for all!!!!

furbey

Right so some genius came up with the idea of making maths harded.
No calculators for Junior Cert students or in primary school.
Change the Junior and Leaving Cert to make them harder beacuse somehow some idiot out there thinks it will encourage more people to do honours maths for the leaving????????
I think we can all spot the flaw in that logic...
And the reason?
They want to make engineers that are out of work Maths teachers.
First problem and I might be wrong here, but I would imagine that engineers are more suited to teaching applied maths.
This is an odd idea at best.
Anyone else think this is f***ing retarded???

pathway33

It is retarded in the sense that the Teaching Council won't recognise some engineering degrees despite the fact they are on their recognised list of qualifications. Slide over to the teaching forum and have a look at the 'engineering /teaching maths' thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055825180 where a 'qualified' maths teacher had their qualification taken off them because they did too much engineering. Engineers and Teaching Council need to get together and sing off same hymn sheet.

furbey

That is insane!! Thanks for the tip though. Interesting thread.

xoxyx

Since when are people allowed use calculators for the Junior Cert? We weren't allowed, and that's not all so long ago.
No harm in making maths harder IMO. I don't think even higher level maths pushes people to the potential they could reach. Ordinary level should make average people work hard. If you don't have an aptitude for maths, do it at pass level. But, there's no point in doing such a versatile and wide ranging subject if you don't learn as much as you can.

gemxpink

z_topaz wrote: »

Since when are people allowed use calculators for the Junior Cert?

Since at least 2004.

furbey

z_topaz wrote: »

Since when are people allowed use calculators for the Junior Cert? We weren't allowed, and that's not all so long ago.
No harm in making maths harder IMO. I don't think even higher level maths pushes people to the potential they could reach. Ordinary level should make average people work hard. If you don't have an aptitude for maths, do it at pass level. But, there's no point in doing such a versatile and wide ranging subject if you don't learn as much as you can.

I get what you're saying but there are a lot more subjects to think about and generally the maths teachers in schools are sh** with one or two exceptions. They think we're thick anyway and move way too slowly so there isn't time to get extra stuff in the course done.
Like I did nothng last year and I'm repeating this year so its a piece of piss but I think its a bit much to ask of kids to do more when the course is so broad anyway.

xoxyx

gemxpink wrote: »

Since at least 2004.

I never knew that! Learn something new every day eh!

And, having been in the working world for a few years now, I am sometimes still surprised at the random skills I learned in school that have a useful application in practise. Mental arithmetic is one of them. I don't work in a job that requires maths skills, but, from a timesaving perspective, if I need to do a quick scan of an invoice or submit receipts. Even if I'm organising a meeting with ten people arriving at 11am, two leaving shortly afterwards, nineteen coming in soon after, (but some have to leave halfway), a couple of maybes, take into account the no-shows and the people who arrive without warning, etc., and this is all done when I'm on the phone to a querying nit-picker, being able to do some quick head sums is very handy.

lc2010

I had an engineer teaching me maths last year and I must say he was the best teacher ever. Not only did he try and prepare us well for the exam, he also showed us loads of applications of what we thought was useless higher level maths. He really tried to develop a love for the subject.
No calculators for the J.C would not be a bad idea at all as it will really develop students basics in maths.

xoxyx

furbey wrote: »

I get what you're saying but there are a lot more subjects to think about and generally the maths teachers in schools are sh** with one or two exceptions. They think we're thick anyway and move way too slowly so there isn't time to get extra stuff in the course done.
Like I did nothng last year and I'm repeating this year so its a piece of piss but I think its a bit much to ask of kids to do more when the course is so broad anyway.

I know it's difficult. Believe me, I sympathise with people who have to grapple with exams in six + subjects in one year. But, then again, these are the same subjects that they've been examined on to an extent in the JC, and they've been studying them solidly for at least the last two years.
I think that, were specialised subjects like maths made more difficult, it would be a good way of really separating those who are good studiers/quick learners, from those who really have a skill in a particular area.
When I went to college, I was amazed to be told that any mark over 70% was spectacular and anything over 80% was almost never achieved. The upper sphere of marks is reserved for those with unusual ability.
Whereas, in the Leaving, 70%/80% is easily achievable.
I think bringing this element into the LC would be a good grounder for people who think that if they get a A in maths/physics they are destined for high positions in that field. Also, for certain courses/positions, it would be a better indication for colleges/jobs that the right person is coming in.

pljudge321

The report seems bang on in my opinion. Having calculators in primary school is a joke, kids should be developing their numerical skills properly not plugging numbers into calculators.

Engineers do more then enough maths to become maths teachers. We do modules in multi-variable calculus, statistics, linear algebra(matrices), fourier & laplace transforms and differential equations. All of this goes far beyond leaving cert level, and thats only in the maths modules. Maths is featured heavily in all modules of an engineering degree. They would also be able to teach physics/chemistry easily enough depending on their discipline or with a small bit extra training.

pljudge321

z_topaz wrote: »

I know it's difficult. Believe me, I sympathise with people who have to grapple with exams in six + subjects in one year. But, then again, these are the same subjects that they've been examined on to an extent in the JC, and they've been studying them solidly for at least the last two years.
I think that, were specialised subjects like maths made more difficult, it would be a good way of really separating those who are good studiers/quick learners, from those who really have a skill in a particular area.
When I went to college, I was amazed to be told that any mark over 70% was spectacular and anything over 80% was almost never achieved. The upper sphere of marks is reserved for those with unusual ability.
Whereas, in the Leaving, 70%/80% is easily achievable.
I think bringing this element into the LC would be a good grounder for people who think that if they get a A in maths/physics they are destined for high positions in that field. Also, for certain courses/positions, it would be a better indication for colleges/jobs that the right person is coming in.

Agreed, the CAO system needs some sort of overhaul, doing honours maths can be seen as a pretty stupid move in the points race. I was the best maths student in the school, put loads of study hours into it and managed to get an A. In geography me and my friend did barely any work and both got A's in it as well for a fraction of the effort. Same difficulty with physics and chemistry. You can be naturally gifted in some subjects and do well in it with little effort. For the science courses it seems you need both talent and hard work to do well.

I remeber my relief when I was informed 70% was an A in college, getting 85%+ to get a top grade seemed pretty much impossible.

pljudge321

lc2010 wrote: »

I had an engineer teaching me maths last year and I must say he was the best teacher ever. Not only did he try and prepare us well for the exam, he also showed us loads of applications of what we thought was useless higher level maths. He really tried to develop a love for the subject.
No calculators for the J.C would not be a bad idea at all as it will really develop students basics in maths.

Most useful things in the leaving cert course IMHO.

Matrices - You don't learn enough about them in the LC. Pop up everywhere

Calculus - Use it for absolutely everything, physics becomes much more enjoyable with it, especially electromagnetism which I hated for the LC

Imaginary Numbers - An Electrical Engineers best friend. Never saw any point in them before.

Trigonometry/Algebra - Once again essential.

Actually now that I think about it thats pretty much the entire course.:o

PeakOutput

furbey wrote: »

I might be wrong here, but I would imagine that engineers are more suited to teaching applied maths.

your right you are wrong

the only time there is a difference between maths and applied maths is in secondary school all maths are learned to be applied

removing calculators is retarded you should be allowed use them in any exam that is not testing addition subtraction multiplication and division

other than that maths should definitely be made harder and our teachers better

Making It Bad

Good idea. Finally we'll have people teaching maths who actually understand it, and appreciate its applications. The no calculators in JC also seems a good idea, it will improve the arithmetic skills of the students, seems a good balance to strike now that the new formulae tables are in. The actual maths we do isn't hard, just the teaching of it, generally, sucks ass.

jumpguy

I can't find this report anywhere, could someone link it?

Who is this "genius"?

In JC, I think calculators are alright for honours maths anyway. Surely any honours student knows how divide, multiply, add and subtract.

Are calculators allowed in primary school though?! Surely not! They weren't when I was there anyway. That'd be a complete disaster. "Right Timmy, instead of learning how to add, subtract, multiply or divide, punch some keys on a calculator". I sincerely hope that calculators are not currently allowed (are they?) This means we have a generation of mathematically stunted students coming up.

lc2010

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0211/education.html

pljudge321

jumpguy wrote: »

I can't find this report anywhere, could someone link it?

Who is this "genius"?

In JC, I think calculators are alright for honours maths anyway. Surely any honours student knows how divide, multiply, add and subtract.

Are calculators allowed in primary school though?! Surely not! They weren't when I was there anyway. That'd be a complete disaster. "Right Timmy, instead of learning how to add, subtract, multiply or divide, punch some keys on a calculator". I sincerely hope that calculators are not currently allowed (are they?) This means we have a generation of mathematically stunted students coming up.

They are allowed them from 3rd class, I think. Its a complete and utter joke and horribly unfair to the students themselves in the long run.

Its almost like allowing them to use a dictophone to do english.

Lawliet

lc2010 wrote: »

No calculators for the J.C would not be a bad idea at all as it will really develop students basics in maths.

I disagree; it sounds completely unfair on people who have dyscalculia or dyslexia.

lc2010

Lawliet wrote: »

I disagree; it sounds completely unfair on people who have dyscalculia or dyslexia.

Well in the long run they are going to have to deal with in the real world. Perhaps they could bring in exceptions for people wit these conditions and allow them to use them

Making It Bad

Lawliet wrote: »

I disagree; it sounds completely unfair on people who have dyscalculia or dyslexia.

This might sound a bit non-politically correct but that will give a more accurate representation of those students' mathematical ability, won't it?

jumpguy

pljudge321 wrote: »

They are allowed them from 3rd class, I think. Its a complete and utter joke and horribly unfair to the students themselves in the long run.

Its almost like allowing them to use a dictophone to do english.

Oh wow...that's indeed terrible. Whatever about JC...but primary school is ridiculous. How long has this been in place?

xoxyx

Lawliet wrote: »

I disagree; it sounds completely unfair on people who have dyscalculia or dyslexia.

Not really - may as well say that having to read/write a paper in an English exam is unfair for people with a reading difficulty.
That's why there are exemptions and aids in exams.

Making It Bad

Indeed. Who's supposed to program the calculators if students don't even know how to add on paper/in their head?

eth0_

gemxpink wrote: »

Since at least 2004.

That is absolutely crazy. You should not need a calculator for junior cert maths.

Lawliet

Making It Bad wrote: »

This might sound a bit non-politically correct but that will give a more accurate representation of those students' mathematical ability, won't it?

Not necessarily. I have a mild form of dyslexia, I'm doing ordinary level maths and can easily get an A in most tests. But I use a calculator for any sort of sums, not because I can't work them out in my head, but purely to check that the number on the page is the one it's suppose to be. You wouldn't believe the amount of times I've mixed up 9s and 6s and 5s for 3s and so on. And don't even get me started on the signs.
Those mistakes have got nothing to do with my mathematical ability, it's a seperate neurological condition.

Also, often people with dyscalculia can understand very complex mathematical concepts and principles, it's usually the basics they have trouble with.

lc2010 wrote: »

Well in the long run they are going to have to deal with in the real world.

Because there are no calculators in the "real world"?

H2student

They allow calculators in primary schools now? Multiplying was about the only thing I learned from it....

I don't quite remember the Junior Cert(despite only being two years ago) so I don't remember what kind of questions comes up but I would hate it if I have to do use the quardratic formula without it. From what I can remember, there was a lot of decimals.... Apart from that, I don't think I used the calculator for anything.

^ Lol yeah calculators are too inconvenient to be used in the "real world".

jumpguy

H2student wrote: »

They allow calculators in primary schools now? Multiplying was about the only thing I learned from it....

I don't quite remember the Junior Cert(despite only being two years ago) so I don't remember what kind of questions comes up but I would hate it if I have to do use the quardratic formula without it. From what I can remember, there was a lot of decimals.... Apart from that, I don't think I used the calculator for anything.

Yeah, using the -b formula without calculators would be very annoying.

With the new maths and formulae tables though, it appears the SEC have dug themselves quite a hole. Get rid of calculators in primary school anyway, definetly. I don't think they're really that bad in JC.

lc2010

Lawliet wrote: »

Because there are no calculators in the "real world"?

I'm not saying that, but unless one carries a calculator with them every where they go, at some stage they are going to be faced with a situation where they have to do some simple maths.
However I admit I'm not an expert and if they feel that dyslexics are at a disadvantage then dyslexics can get aids/calculators, but for the majority of the students doing the exam it would be beneficial.

Lawliet

jumpguy wrote: »

With the new maths and formulae tables though, it appears the SEC have dug themselves quite a hole.

I don't know what they were thinking with those new tables. It will be interesting to see how they'll change the questions next June. Something tells me we wont be getting any easy marks for slotting numbers into given formula.

lc2010 wrote: »

I'm not saying that, but unless one carries a calculator with them every where they go, at some stage they are going to be faced with a situation where they have to do some simple maths.

Most phones have calculators now

Fad

furbey wrote: »

They want to make engineers that are out of work Maths teachers.

First problem and I might be wrong here, but I would imagine that engineers are more suited to teaching applied maths.

This is an odd idea at best.

They would brilliantly qualified to teach it (They could even be better maths teachers, than people with a degree in maths).

A person with a degree in maths would obviously have far beyond what is needed to teach Leaving Cert maths, but they study very abstract maths that is of much less practical use than that of what an engineer studies.

Engineers study A LOT of maths, it is a very mathematically driven profession. Not only that, but they can apply the maths they've learned to real life situation, which especially when you're teaching stuff like matrices and imaginary numbers, will help you to teach students.

Applied maths would be something they're especially qualified to teach.

Basically, you dont know what you're talking about

lc2010

Lawliet wrote: »

Most phones have calculators now

You know what I mean!!
As H2student said there is an inconvenience in using them in the real world.