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Plans to make Maths more difficult for all!!!!

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    #32
    pathway33
    Registered Users Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭pathway33


    Apart from engineers what other graduates/professions would be good for teaching maths to show its real world applications. Economist? Actuary? Surveyor?


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    #33
    pljudge321
    Registered Users Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭pljudge321


    pathway33 wrote: »
    Apart from engineers what other graduates/professions would be good for teaching maths to show its real world applications. Economist? Actuary? Surveyor?

    Physics graduates, possibly comp sci grads as well.

    If they want to get really serious they might consider upping the pay scale for maths teachers and making the regulations much stronger.


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    #34
    jumpguy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,962 ✭✭✭jumpguy


    We had an okay JC maths teacher. She gave out if you asked questions "I EXPLAINED THAT YESTERDAY, WERE YOU NOT PAYING ATTENTION?!?!" even though I just couldn't see how whatever concept was employed in the context.

    In contact, we have an excellent LC maths teacher, and she can explain new things very well, goes through the course in a very organised yet thorough way (no "oh, we'll skip this chapter and come back to it later") and explains all the concepts, instead of rote learning them, and is very patient. She'll explain something a million times until you understand.. I nearly find doing the maths in LC easier and far more enjoyable than JC (well, it'd be grand if it wasn't for the sheer lenght of the course) now.

    So yeah, good teachers are of course important!


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    #35
    Fad
    Registered Users Posts: 7,231 ✭✭✭Fad


    pathway33 wrote: »
    Apart from engineers what other graduates/professions would be good for teaching maths to show its real world applications. Economist? Actuary? Surveyor?

    One maths/applied maths teacher in my (old) school used to be an actuary.


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    #36
    pathway33
    Registered Users Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭pathway33


    pljudge321 wrote: »
    If they want to get really serious they might consider ....making the regulations much stronger.

    Like what? Make it tougher to become a maths teacher?


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    #37
    pathway33
    Registered Users Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭pathway33


    pathway33 wrote: »
    Apart from engineers what other graduates/professions would be good for teaching maths to show its real world applications. Economist? Actuary? Surveyor?

    Here's another...According to the teaching council list on their website the degree in biotechnology from DCU will qualify you to teach maths


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    #38
    H2student
    Closed Accounts Posts: 311 ✭✭H2student


    I don't see how they can penalise someone for doing too much engineering o_O. How abstract the maths course is best demonstrated by the introduction of "project maths" so shouldn't they WANT teachers capable of explaining the applications better?

    I agree that you need a basic level of maths for everyday lives, but the example listed in this thread doesn't seem to exceed simple addition and multiplication. You learn them in primary school don't you?


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    #39
    Mayoegian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 777 ✭✭✭Mayoegian


    eth0_ wrote: »
    That is absolutely crazy. You should not need a calculator for junior cert maths.

    I disagree. How would you find the Tan, Sin or Cos angle of a triangle? Completely impossible if you have not got a calculator. To do away with calculators, you would have to reform the curriculum.


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    #40
    pljudge321
    Registered Users Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭pljudge321


    pathway33 wrote: »
    Like what? Make it tougher to become a maths teacher?

    Making sure they can actually teach.


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    #41
    pathway33
    Registered Users Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭pathway33


    pljudge321 wrote: »
    Making sure they can actually teach.

    but that would be discrimination. What about all the other teachers?


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    #42
    furbey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭furbey


    MaighEoGoDeo wrote: »
    I disagree. How would you find the Tan, Sin or Cos angle of a triangle? Completely impossible if you have not got a calculator. To do away with calculators, you would have to reform the curriculum.

    Yes for the junior cert they would have to change the cirriculum to give more time to do calculations when there are no calculators.
    But for the leaving not necessarily.
    I would have thought the same until i started doing applied maths and the guy teaching me rarely uses a calculator. I gave it a try. Feel more confident doing the calculations using fractions and my head now in case i make a mistake putting in the numbers. Seriously you'd be amazed how much better you get at maths without the calculator. Thats the one part of their plan thats a good thing!!


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    #43
    imitation
    Registered Users Posts: 1,815 ✭✭✭imitation


    MaighEoGoDeo wrote: »
    I disagree. How would you find the Tan, Sin or Cos angle of a triangle? Completely impossible if you have not got a calculator. To do away with calculators, you would have to reform the curriculum.

    Err using a log tables ? I thought this was a good idea before reading this, but now its cemented in my mind.

    There is nothing wrong with calculators, but doing maths out longhand is a very valuable skill and helps develop the ability to use numbers in your head, which is absolutely vital in some careers, and extremely useful in others.

    Its easy for maths to devolve into just running through the motions without realising what your actually doing and calculators can easily reinforce that.

    Plus since when could you use them before Jr Cert level ?!


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    #44
    Herb Powell
    Registered Users Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭Herb Powell


    I already despise maths as it is, this would just turn me off even more.


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    #45
    furbey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭furbey


    Its easy for maths to devolve into just running through the motions without realising what your actually doing and calculators can easily reinforce that.

    I agree 100% Excellent point
    Plus since when could you use them before Jr Cert level ?

    Came into national schools around 2003 and for the junior cert about the same time, probably even earlier. Ridiculos right?


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    #46
    seanaor
    Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭seanaor


    My maths teacher told me that theyre making probability compulsory for both junior cert and leaving cert... I think this is a good thing. Anybody else have an opinion?


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    #47
    imitation
    Registered Users Posts: 1,815 ✭✭✭imitation


    furbey wrote: »
    Came into national schools around 2003 and for the junior cert about the same time, probably even earlier. Ridiculos right?

    Just as I was leaving heh.

    Maths isnt hard, I went through secondary thinking it was, mainly because I screwed myself over by slacking on doing homework (and by having a teacher who didnt enforce it on me). I had my mum demented from giving me maths grinds, because I just flat out didnt want to do it.

    Then I went to do electronics, which seems crazy for somebody who hates maths, but I love tech and it was my only option. I struggled at the start but eventually I got to grips with it. The main reason is that some good lecturers showed me the point behind alot of maths. It also becomes less about the numbers and more about the transformations.

    All I can say to somebody who hates maths is just give it time, and what ever you do, dont let it stop you from doing what you want. I`m now working in industry working with mathematically based software as well as programming and other IT related gubbins, I love it and most people think I`m pretty proficient at it, not bad for somebody who got a D in ordinary level maths :pac:

    EDIT:
    My maths teacher told me that theyre making probability compulsory for both junior cert and leaving cert... I think this is a good thing. Anybody else have an opinion?

    Yes, its very good thing, probability isnt massively complex and its applications are obvious & useful.


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    #48
    furbey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭furbey


    seanaor wrote: »
    My maths teacher told me that theyre making probability compulsory for both junior cert and leaving cert... I think this is a good thing. Anybody else have an opinion?

    Yes and no.
    Its cool but its hardly hard core maths its definately not as cool as differentiation but i guess people can relate more to it if they dont like/understand maths. unno lotto, gambling on horses would be common examples(maybe that isn't a good thing though)
    Okay i dunno just talked a load of sh** and cant make up my mind.
    meh!!!:confused:


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    #49
    randylonghorn
    Registered Users Posts: 29,509 ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    MaighEoGoDeo wrote: »
    How would you find the Tan, Sin or Cos angle of a triangle? Completely impossible if you have not got a calculator.
    Lol, you do realise that tangents, sines and cosines, and the other trigonometric functions, were around long before calculators? :)


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    #50
    pljudge321
    Registered Users Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭pljudge321


    furbey wrote: »
    Yes and no.
    Its cool but its hardly hard core maths its definately not as cool as differentiation but i guess people can relate more to it if they dont like/understand maths. unno lotto, gambling on horses would be common examples(maybe that isn't a good thing though)
    Okay i dunno just talked a load of sh** and cant make up my mind.
    meh!!!:confused:

    I wouldn't consider it core to the course either, but it definitely is one section of the course where it is much easier to have questions based in reality where the usefulness is quite obvious. You could easily demonstrate the usefulness of calculus to students doing physics and applied maths but I have vague references of my physics teacher telling me that this is not allowed as it would be unfair on honours physics students who are not taking honours maths.


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    #51
    imitation
    Registered Users Posts: 1,815 ✭✭✭imitation


    furbey wrote: »
    Yes and no.
    Its cool but its hardly hard core maths its definately not as cool as differentiation but i guess people can relate more to it if they dont like/understand maths. unno lotto, gambling on horses would be common examples(maybe that isn't a good thing though)
    Okay i dunno just talked a load of sh** and cant make up my mind.
    meh!!!:confused:

    Its as handy to have as differentiation, it crops up again a few times if your doing engineering and the like, for instance in manufacturing its used to determine the reliability of products. Its not hard core beard maths, but I think the jc & lc could benefit from some of that.


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    #52
    Mayoegian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 777 ✭✭✭Mayoegian


    furbey wrote: »
    Yes for the junior cert they would have to change the cirriculum to give more time to do calculations when there are no calculators.
    But for the leaving not necessarily.
    I would have thought the same until i started doing applied maths and the guy teaching me rarely uses a calculator. I gave it a try. Feel more confident doing the calculations using fractions and my head now in case i make a mistake putting in the numbers. Seriously you'd be amazed how much better you get at maths without the calculator. Thats the one part of their plan thats a good thing!!
    imitation wrote: »
    Err using a log tables ? I thought this was a good idea before reading this, but now its cemented in my mind.

    There is nothing wrong with calculators, but doing maths out longhand is a very valuable skill and helps develop the ability to use numbers in your head, which is absolutely vital in some careers, and extremely useful in others.

    Its easy for maths to devolve into just running through the motions without realising what your actually doing and calculators can easily reinforce that.

    Plus since when could you use them before Jr Cert level ?!
    randylonghorn wrote: »
    Lol, you do realise that tangents, sines and cosines, and the other trigonometric functions, were around long before calculators? :)



    Try finding Tan(inverse) 5/8 in the log tables, or figuring it out in your head-LOL.


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    #53
    Herbal Deity
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    MaighEoGoDeo wrote: »
    I disagree. How would you find the Tan, Sin or Cos angle of a triangle? Completely impossible if you have not got a calculator. To do away with calculators, you would have to reform the curriculum.
    Here's a crazy idea, why not leave answers in terms of trigonometric functions?


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    #54
    ayumi
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭ayumi


    but does that mean that even the leaving cert 2010 will be effected?
    also will colleges be banned from using calculators ,i dont think soo as there is many maths formulas that cant be done by brain and if you did it will take ages especailly in college


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    #55
    Herbal Deity
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    Who said anything about getting rid of calculators for LC level, let alone in college?


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    #56
    pathway33
    Registered Users Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭pathway33


    ayumi wrote: »
    will colleges be banned from using calculators ,i dont think soo as there is many maths formulas that cant be done by brain and if you did it will take ages especailly in college

    yes it will, maybe 20 years - thereby shortening the dole queues. He's not as batty as some people think


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    #57
    Trogdor
    Registered Users Posts: 2,310 ✭✭✭Trogdor


    MaighEoGoDeo wrote: »
    Try finding Tan(inverse) 5/8 in the log tables, or figuring it out in your head-LOL.

    Would be fairly easy considering if you were used to doing maths in your head you'd know straight away that 5/8 is 0.625 and there's no problem looking that up in the log tables, 32 degrees is 0.6249. I for one would be in favour of the banning of calculators anyway but i know that it would definately put more people off higher maths yes..


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    #58
    Making It Bad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 315 ✭✭Making It Bad


    I think we can all agree that maths as it is in schools now isn't working. What they're suggesting certainly can't make things any worse, that's for sure.


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    #59
    felic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 229 ✭✭felic


    Making maths harder? How can they see this as logical? IMO, they cant see logic in just making one subject harder; every subject should be made harder. The entire LC course should really be revised because its just about getting the points and if Maths are made harder, people will just do it as a compulsive subject and aim for the required grade on their course and then use another subject to gain the points they need. Stupid idea!


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    #60
    whadabouchasir
    Registered Users Posts: 942 ✭✭✭whadabouchasir


    felic wrote: »
    Making maths harder? How can they see this as logical? IMO, they cant see logic in just making one subject harder; every subject should be made harder. . Stupid idea!
    But if maths was made more difficult at primary school and JC then students would be able to cope with a more difficult LC because they would have a higher standard of maths going into this.


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    #61
    randylonghorn
    Registered Users Posts: 29,509 ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    MaighEoGoDeo wrote: »
    Try finding Tan(inverse) 5/8 in the log tables,
    We were taught how to find stuff like that, it wasn't that impossible at all.

    (Which is not to say I would remember it now without a quick revision, tbh ... calculators have made me lazy as well!)
    MaighEoGoDeo wrote: »
    or figuring it out in your head-LOL.
    Ah now ... that would take a budding Einstein all right.
    trogdor wrote: »
    I for one would be in favour of the banning of calculators anyway but i know that it would definately put more people off higher maths yes..
    I don't think I would ban them for LC tbh, but before that, yes.


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