Plans to make Maths more difficult for all!!!!

jumpguy

TBH, the maths at LC aren't that difficult for most HL maths JC students. The biggest problem is the sheer scale of the course. It requires a huge amount of time to get an A1 in, in comparison to a subject like business.

Because of the points system, this just isn't worth it for alot of students, and this is a big part of why HL maths levels are so low. Not because the people CAN'T do HL maths, it's just that there's little advantage of doing it and it's all about the points.

Davidius

Engineers would be perfectly capable of teaching maths as well as applied maths. For one, the concepts and topics that come up in maths but not applied maths are pretty simple at LC Higher level and many engineers are bound to be familiar with them. As far as I remember my maths teacher had an engineering degree of some sort and he was very good. Students on the other hand were often a bit lazy and unwilling.

They could easily be much better teachers than those with degrees in mathematics. One thing to note is that engineers would often be much more in touch with the applications of mathematics, which people see as a big deal to teach.

Aside from that people who go on to do maths degrees are often the kind who simply can't really empathise with people who have trouble. Some people would advise that you should only really consider doing one if you didn't have problems at LC level. That's not to say they make bad teachers and a love of the subject is good because they'll be more inclined to be enthusiastic about teaching it.

I see somebody mentioned something about calculators being used at primary level. That sounds like a complete disgrace to me, there's absolutely no reason they should ever be used at that level.

I don't mind so much at JC HL seeing as it's more about teaching the concept and idea in second level. Large mental or written step by step calculations are tedious and a bit trivial relative to the idea and the logic behind it. Personally I'd like to see some room for properly explaining and maybe adding in more basic topics from LC level rather than practicing mental arithmetic. I do see the problem of students becoming lazy or having no time to practice their arithmetic. If you were really pushed you could add a no-calculators part to the exam be that sounds like a bit of a cop-out.

I always felt that the HL course at LC was fundamentally fine more or less. Thought it could have been a bit harder with more on matrices and maybe a bit more on stats. Abstract algebra' could be good craic I suppose. I would have thought that the main problem was not so much that it was too hard relative to other subjects but moreso that the previous levels weren't teaching enough. That and some subjects probably aren't as hard as they ought to be so maths seems to not be worth the effort. Then there would be issues of HL capable people dropping down to OL and maybe pushing up the standards for those who are less capable.

Of course you might want to take my thoughts with a grain of salt seeing as I was always a maths kind of person and I've started a maths centred degree so my experience was always a bit different.

rainbowtrout

MaighEoGoDeo wrote: »

I disagree. How would you find the Tan, Sin or Cos angle of a triangle? Completely impossible if you have not got a calculator. To do away with calculators, you would have to reform the curriculum.

I did my Junior Cert in 1994 (Higher Level) and we were not allowed use calculators. All calculations were done on paper or with the use of log tables... all those funny pages in the centre of the tables that never get used now.

furbey wrote: »

Yes for the junior cert they would have to change the cirriculum to give more time to do calculations when there are no calculators.
But for the leaving not necessarily.
I would have thought the same until i started doing applied maths and the guy teaching me rarely uses a calculator. I gave it a try. Feel more confident doing the calculations using fractions and my head now in case i make a mistake putting in the numbers. Seriously you'd be amazed how much better you get at maths without the calculator. Thats the one part of their plan thats a good thing!!

I can't see how it would have to change that much. Exams were still 2 and a half hours when I did them without a calculator and were still in the same format. I doubt much has changed since then.

MaighEoGoDeo wrote: »

Try finding Tan(inverse) 5/8 in the log tables, or figuring it out in your head-LOL.

5/8 =0.625 , easy to look up a decimal in the log tables and it gives you the inverse in degrees and minutes.



I teach science and some maths, but I don't normally have junior classes. I am generally appalled at the lack of basic ability in mental arithmetic in students when they take up chemistry in fifth year. Not all students of course, but quite a number. Even the brightest ones who would sail through maths and chemistry, do their maths on a calculator because they don't know any other way of doing it. I wonder how people cope on a day to day basis, even for the little things. When I'm going around a shop picking up a few bits and pieces I can quickly calculate in my head what it's going to cost me. I wonder are current students able to do the same without a calculator. I know my students are shocked to see me doing calculations on the board for chemistry and write something like '15 x 8 = 120' and continue with the next part of the calculation. They are amazed that I can multiply in my head and I'm equally amazed that they can't.

While I'm in general disagreement with doing away with calculators for junior cert, they should never have been allowed next or near a primary school. And whoever thought doing away with rote learning of times tables was a good idea should be taken out and shot. So many students in secondary school today can't tell me what 9 x 6 is. Not all rote learning is bad. People of my parents generation didn't get a huge amount of schooling but would be able to do basic arithmetic faster on paper than a lot of students can with a calculator.

If students don't have to engage their brains to learn basic arithmetic, why would they even bother to try and engage their brains to learn calculus, matrices, trigonometry etc, stuff that requires handwritten calculations?

Herbal Deity

Are times tables not taught in primary school anymore? :S

dambarude

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I can't see how it would have to change that much. Exams were still 2 and a half hours when I did them without a calculator and were still in the same format. I doubt much has changed since then.

IIRC the Junior cert Maths syllabus changed to allow the introduction of calculators in exams.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

While I'm in general disagreement with doing away with calculators for junior cert, they should never have been allowed next or near a primary school. And whoever thought doing away with rote learning of times tables was a good idea should be taken out and shot. So many students in secondary school today can't tell me what 9 x 6 is. Not all rote learning is bad. People of my parents generation didn't get a huge amount of schooling but would be able to do basic arithmetic faster on paper than a lot of students can with a calculator.

Times tables haven't been done away with at primary level- the curriculum recommends learning number facts within 100- basically times tables up to and including the number 10. I think lack of practice using mental tables (due to the calculator) slows down your recollection of them in secondary school. It did with me anyway.

There are many different ways of doing mental calculations that children should develop in primary school. They're rarely specifically taught or developed though. Some children will automatically pick up mental maths calculations, most likely the bright ones, but for others this takes much more work. More attention needs to be given to it at primary level.

rainbowtrout

dambarude wrote: »

IIRC the Junior cert Maths syllabus changed to allow the introduction of calculators in exams.


Times tables haven't been done away with at primary level- the curriculum recommends learning number facts within 100- basically times tables up to and including the number 10. I think lack of practice using mental tables (due to the calculator) slows down your recollection of them in secondary school. It did with me anyway.

There are many different ways of doing mental calculations that children should develop in primary school. They're rarely specifically taught or developed though. Some children will automatically pick up mental maths calculations, most likely the bright ones, but for others this takes much more work. More attention needs to be given to it at primary level.

Oh i know the syllabus changed, I didn't make myself all that clear, I don't think the syllabus changed wildly in it's content, moreso the use of calculators was allowed where it previously wasn't.

Times tables haven't been done away with, but at the same time, the use of calculators does not encourage their learning in any way. What's the point when there is a calculator to hand?

dambarude

rainbowtrout wrote: »

What's the point when there is a calculator to hand?

Very little... you're right. Calculators wouldn't be intended to replace mental calculations in primary schools, not to the same extent as secondary at any rate, but their presence does lessen the importance of mental arithmetic.

I know that because something is stated in the curriculum doesn't mean that's actually the case, but this is what it says at any rate:

Calculators help in the development of problem-solving skills by allowing thechild to focus on the structure of a problem and possible means of solution.Calculators can be used to check estimates, to perform long and complex computations, and to provide exact results to difficult problems. However, the calculator cannot be a substitute for practical activity with materials.

grrrrrrrrrr

Ok i havent read all of the above but can i make just a few points:

1. the reason they want to bring engineers into the classroom is so they can tell students why they are doing certain topic in maths. eg. how many of ye know and understand the importance of matrices? Why are vectors so important? etc... Our maths teacher explained these to us and it make it easier to learn as you see some point in it!

2. The head of engineering Ireland just wanted calculators banned in primary schools, he didnt say anything about the JC! this does make sense tho! people have become way too dependant on calculators in primary school and they lose the ability to do simple maths and algebra! how many of ye arent afraid of algebraic fractions?
When we were in third ye we were given the 1965 entrance maths exam for our school. (keep in mind this would have been completed by sixth class students, four years younger than us!) We spent an entire week trying to complete this exam, which some students aced in 90 mins 40 years ago! and they had no calculators then.


Im not saying to blanket ban calculators, far from it, but basic maths skills have suffered terrible effects due to their OVER-USE specially at primary level.


Note: engineering ireland estimates that poor basic maths skills costs the economy 8 BILLION anually!

pathway33

the 67 page report is on www.engineersireland.ie if anyone is interested

pathway33

grrrrrrrrrr wrote: »

The head of engineering Ireland just wanted calculators banned in primary schools, he didnt say anything about the JC!

Page 52 (56 / 67 on pdf version) of the report

Proposal 13 -Ban Calculators at primary and Junior cycle

[...] their use should be banned or withdrawn by the minister in primary and second level up to and including junior certificate

RexMundi

Well since the whole purpose of the Leaving is to differentiate between different calibres of students, the difficulty of the exams is not really of all that much importance...

toiletduck

Calculators for JC?! Ha! Are they even being taught how to use log tables?


I think it's a pretty good idea (engineers retraining for Maths). I was lucky in having great teachers for Maths and Applied Maths, but a lot of guys coming into college were utterly hopeless. And first year college was a breeze with those and physics/chemistry under my belt :pac:

I mean obviously this alone wouldn't turn around the decline rate in students taking higher level but hopefully there's some more good ideas being bandied about.

gemxpink

toiletduck wrote: »

Calculators for JC?! Ha! Are they even being taught how to use log tables?

LOL, this reminds me of how everyone in my class didn't even know what a logs table was until 2 weeks before the exam!!

dan_d

Em...Amazingly guys, a large proportion of us here on boards did our JC with no calculators. And we're not 30 yet - mine was in 1998! And I believe for the LC now you get a book of formulae as well as log tables, so you don't have to learn off any formulae. Makes me wonder what exactly you do have to do for the exam.......

Engineers would be quite good for teaching maths, as they can generally communicate quite well with non-maths people, unlike maths grads, who tend to live more in a world where everyone understands their language, and find it hard to comprehend why someone WOULDN'T understand maths. I had an excellent maths teacher for LC - makes you really appreciate the subject.

I'm an engineer now.......!

toiletduck

gemxpink wrote: »

LOL, this reminds me of how everyone in my class didn't even know what a logs table was until 2 weeks before the exam!!

That's mental.

Are some colleges still giving extra points for HL Maths?

zoom!

I suppose if it's harder for all then it won't make a difference. If everybody finds it difficult then the test will be marked easier. As for the no calculator thing I think that's stupid.

jumpguy

toiletduck wrote: »

That's mental.

Are some colleges still giving extra points for HL Maths?

UL gives quite a generous amount of extra points for HL maths - 40 extra for an A1.

TBH I think more places should for certain courses (like bonus points for HL maths in engineering, computer science, etc)

pathway33

toiletduck wrote: »

That's mental.

Are some colleges still giving extra points for HL Maths?

I think UL do.

eVeNtInE

This post has been deleted.

!?!

I'll probably get killed for saying this, but i think that once they don't give you mad exponential sums or decimals that go on forever, it is a really good idea. I can see how people (including myself) in higher maths classes can't do mental maths, thus almost completely relying on their calculators. In the long run, it would really help, it would develop numerical reasoning and observation skills as you will have to look for the easiest way through a hard sum, as opposed to just typing the whole thing into a calculator, and if anybody ever goes for anything like the hpat or bmat, where calculators are not allowed i think they would really appreciate these skills, rather than just waking up one day and realising you're completely helpless without a machine. The reason that more people don't do higer maths is because they haven't sufficiently developed these skills, so if calculators were banned it would force them to; most students in my school didn't drop down because of advanced calculus, they handn't reached that stage yet, they dropped down when they couldn't do algebra such as long division including unknowns, which a calculator can't do for you!

(i haven't read the rest of the posts so sorry if i'm expressing somebody else's viewpoint)

jumpguy

eVeNtInE wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Nope - highly doubt it. Those naturally skilled at maths deserve a boost tbh, there's not much of 'em around.

pathway33

eVeNtInE wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It was removed from the other colleges. Pretty sure UL still do it though. In the 80s I believe UCD, UCC and that gang used to give 7 points for an A in honours maths whilst every other higher A was 5 points. Then I think a B in higher math was 5 while a higher B in everything else was 4 and so on.

I think you needed about 27 points for medicine. Thems were the days eh

Anthony16

furbey wrote: »

Right so some genius came up with the idea of making maths harded.
No calculators for Junior Cert students or in primary school.
Change the Junior and Leaving Cert to make them harder beacuse somehow some idiot out there thinks it will encourage more people to do honours maths for the leaving????????
I think we can all spot the flaw in that logic...
And the reason?
They want to make engineers that are out of work Maths teachers.
First problem and I might be wrong here, but I would imagine that engineers are more suited to teaching applied maths.
This is an odd idea at best.
Anyone else think this is f***ing retarded???

I agree with the calculator thing.I had become so used to using one that i couldnt add in my head at all.
However,this is a silly idea if they are trying to promote maths as les and less ppl will do higher if its more difficult

Ash_M

Calculators in Primary schools, just plain ridiculous. In secondary, the exam really just seems to test you on your ability to figure out how a particular question is done, and calculators are just a tool for getting out that question. I generally do most of my maths in my head, and see do I get the same with a calculator afterwards, cos I never trust it to do things in the right order, but for the exams as a whole calculators make sense, definitely for LC, and I wouldn't kick them out for JC without looking at the course. Learning to do Trigonometry without a calculator isn't relevant, so would it really be a great boost to take away calculators?

Evan93

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055829043


Maths to be harder?
I think not.

akkadian

jumpguy wrote: »

Nope - highly doubt it. Those naturally skilled at maths deserve a boost tbh, there's not much of 'em around.

I agree with you and so does the dept. of education (as of today) . We need to encourage people to invest in Math, if this smart economy mumbo jumbo is to have any credibility.

If I had my way there would be 2 Math papers. One, as is, that is all theory, with the bonus points, and one that I call 'Math(s) Analysis'. This one should be developed as part of the smart economy and utilize computers with Mathematica, Maple, or another Math program to show students the power of Math in the real world. This would also provide extra calibre and quantity of students entering the IT, and engineering arenas.

homolumo

don't worry people the new maths curriculum, Project Maths, is a complete dumbing down and will ensure better grades and greater participation at higher level. This will make the goverment look better
but we will be a nation of people with a poor level of mathematical ability.

Aoifums

Calculators should never be used in Primary. Full stop. It's absurd! We never went past basic algebra (although it was called something else).

I did about 3/4 of my JC OL paper without a calculator. I was bored out of my tree in ordinary level and so I used to do everything mentally to make it harder for myself. I used a calculator for harder sums and to check my answers when I had finished the entire paper.

I think people are way too dependant on calculators. Even my maths teacher is. If the class doing a sum on the bored, my teacher will ask us to pull out our calculators to do (8)(15) or something equally simple :rolleyes: The higher maths class are worse though. I've been in the room when their class is on and they use calculators for ridiculously simple sums.

Ruski

Aoifums wrote: »

Calculators should never be used in Primary. Full stop. It's absurd! We never went past basic algebra (although it was called something else).

I did about 3/4 of my JC OL paper without a calculator. I was bored out of my tree in ordinary level and so I used to do everything mentally to make it harder for myself. I used a calculator for harder sums and to check my answers when I had finished the entire paper.

I think people are way too dependant on calculators. Even my maths teacher is. If the class doing a sum on the bored, my teacher will ask us to pull out our calculators to do (8)(15) or something equally simple :rolleyes: The higher maths class are worse though. I've been in the room when their class is on and they use calculators for ridiculously simple sums.

That is because the minds of us higher level mathematicians are far too advanced for the plebeian task of doing such simple sums.