The USI Referendum

Duddy

...has been scheduled, following last weeks Union Council, for the same date as the SU elections.

For those who don't know, USI is the Union of Students in Ireland, made up of all students of affiliated Universities and ITs.

Each institution has an allocated number of reps, based on student population size, and these reps attend Congress each year, to decide on policies and stances etc. (Maynooth will have around 11 or 12)

Perks include free campaign stuff from USI, SHAG/Mental Health packs, info posters. The Minister for Education is also mandated to meet with the President and Education Officer at least 3 times a year.

However, for NUI Maynooth to (re)join, it will cost each student an extra €5 on the student levy. If the majority of voters vote yes, NUIM will affiliate for 3 years, then have another referendum.

Seeing as the referendum is but a few weeks away, what do people think about this? Anyone excited, scared, nonplussed? Anyone give a s***e??:pac:

declan06

Well I'm cautiously optimistic. I think that whoever is on the exec needs to make sure USI works for the benefit of NUI Maynooth students. I think it is a great opportunity for our Union to get on a national stage and campaign more effectively.

There will be a referendum in 3 years to decide if we should stay a member, so I'm voting yes.

irish_goat

I'm not convinced of the need for this.

At €5 a head it's going to cost €38 200 a year to join USI. Are the perks of joining worth that much? I don't think so. The ones that Duddy mentioned are certainly not. We can make our own SHAG/mental health packs much cheaper and a meeting with the Minister for Education isn't hard to set up if needed.

I'd be all for it if USI was a decent organisation with real influence and real campaigns but from what I can tell it's nothing more than a talking shop with a few "we demand the government do X now" demonstrations thrown in. NUS on the other hand is a good example of what USI should be. It's a talking shop as well and has plenty of people who just love to hold conferences to hear themselves speak but at the same time they have meaningful campaigns and also lobby properly on behalf of student interests e.g. there's an NUS discount card for students and there's a group called NUS Services that colletively purchases goods so that unions get cheaper stock and can pass the savings onto the students.

Also, shape of their website. http://www.usi.ie

Remember folks, it's 38 grand we're talking about, are we really gonna be better off spending that on USI membership rather than investing in our own union.

Vote No!

philologos

When it comes around I'll probably vote no on the grounds that the USI engage in political issues that not all students are going to agree with. The Students Union is meant to be there for all students irrespective of what their political views are.

For example under Gender Equality, that abortion is an act of "reproductive justice" and referring to crisis pregnancy agencies that do endorse adoption above abortion as "rogue".

Then under LGBT, the stated aim of the USI is to "lobby for the introduction of civil marriage for lesbian and gay couples, which includes the right to raise a family" and a position opposing the current Civil Partnership Bill.

I will be fair, and say that most other USI policy areas are reasonable. However, joining the USI means that the Students Union will be subscribing to these ideals, even when many students do not hold them. Isn't it more pragmatic to let people make up their own minds on abortion, and on gay marriage rather than adopting the USI position?

I think the Students Union is better off continuing independently.

Duddy

Poll added for extra fun:D

Effluo

There must be more to it than a bit more to it than has been outlined here.
I'd prob vote no though

declan06

Jakkass wrote: »

Then under LGBT, the stated aim of the USI is to "lobby for the introduction of civil marriage for lesbian and gay couples, which includes the right to raise a family" and a position opposing the current Civil Partnership Bill.

NUIMSU supported this campaign last year.

At the debate I asked about autonomy and we are free not to go with a campaigns and we could speak out against a USI stance. We also send reps to the congress that decides what their policies are.

Duddy

irish_goat wrote: »

Remember folks, it's 38 grand we're talking about, are we really gonna be better off spending that on USI membership rather than investing in our own union.

Bear in mind that the €38,000 will be either going to USI, or it won't be taken at all. A lot of people have brought up that argument, but unless there's a particular specific cause for an increase in the student levy (such as USI affiliation) then it'll be pretty hard to get something voted in by the class reps. It wont be the case where, if we vote no, we'll have 38k lying around the Union.

As Declan06 already mentioned, the SU are under no obligation to follow USI's campaigns, I've asked the President this, however, as they'll be holding most of the same "Weeks" as the SUs around the country, it makes sense to get the free stuff.

AFAIK, there's a (quite lengthy) policy handbook, and this is voted in by the reps, similar to the etiquette used in Union Council.

There'll be an info meeting and/or a info leaflet flying around, with a Yes side (me ) and a No side, from another class rep. Think Referendum Commission leaflets for the Lisbon Treaty

philologos

The question is, is it really right that €5 of the registration fee that people who disagree with either of those areas pay be used to promote areas that they fundamentally disagree with?

Duddy

Jakkass wrote: »

The question is, is it really right that €5 of the registration fee that people who disagree with either of those areas pay be used to promote areas that they fundamentally disagree with?

There will be, however, chances to lobby for change, not only in Congress, but at Union Council level - you'd be dealing with class reps you know. At that stage, The reps going to Congress could be mandated to propose, or vote for, a particular motion. USI is not an overlord that makes the decisions for us, we and other colleges will make them.

LeixlipRed

Jakkass wrote: »

The question is, is it really right that €5 of the registration fee that people who disagree with either of those areas pay be used to promote areas that they fundamentally disagree with?

Contraception is it? Don't make us run the condom train on you.

philologos

Read the two issues I highlighted (contraception wasn't one of them). Why should people be forced to financially support something that goes against their beliefs?

The Students Union by it's nature should remain impartial on issues of marriage, abortion or any other political issue. The union should be a full representative of students rather than isolating students who disagree with them.

Duddy: Should we really have to lobby to change USI, or would it be more fruitful not to affiliate with it?

irish_goat

Duddy wrote: »

Bear in mind that the €38,000 will be either going to USI, or it won't be taken at all. A lot of people have brought up that argument, but unless there's a particular specific cause for an increase in the student levy (such as USI affiliation) then it'll be pretty hard to get something voted in by the class reps. It wont be the case where, if we vote no, we'll have 38k lying around the Union.

Granted but it's still a fiver out of everyone's pocket. A small amount yes but it doesn't negate the point that €38,000 would be better of spent in NUIMSU than on USI membership. The fact that it is either going to USI or not taken at all doesn't make it anymore favourable.

I'm open to listen to the possible benefits of membership but if it's only really for a few meetings with ministers and some boxes of freebies for our "weeks" we can do much better by ourselves.

Duddy

Well TBH RTÉ aren't going to come to NUIM to get our opinion on student issues - they'll go straight to USI, that media presence is pretty valuable. We can be either a part of a large lobby group with a lot of media attention, or be ignored completely. This will have positive consequences for minorities - the Equality campaigns are USI's campaigns, not just one officer's.

The couple of meetings with the ministers have even recently had good results: the government will soon be voting on legislation to reform the grants system - basically replacing the high number of grant-giving organisations with one, large body, in an attempt to speed up the time taken processing applications. USI suggested, and lobbied for, this change.

We'll also get access to Green Training, Pink Training, National Conferences, and have an area officer working closely with our and local SUs. Joining USI will also affiliate NUIMSU/MSU with the European Students' Union.

LeixlipRed

Jakkass wrote: »

Read the two issues I highlighted (contraception wasn't one of them). Why should people be forced to financially support something that goes against their beliefs?

The Students Union by it's nature should remain impartial on issues of marriage, abortion or any other political issue. The union should be a full representative of students rather than isolating students who disagree with them.

Duddy: Should we really have to lobby to change USI, or would it be more fruitful not to affiliate with it?

Apologies, I didn't see your earlier post. I still disagree with your stance of course.

irish_goat

Duddy wrote: »

Well TBH RTÉ aren't going to come to NUIM to get our opinion on student issues - they'll go straight to USI, that media presence is pretty valuable. We can be either a part of a large lobby group with a lot of media attention, or be ignored completely. This will have positive consequences for minorities - the Equality campaigns are USI's campaigns, not just one officer's.

Irrelevant, the media act as if we're in USI anyway. Besides that even if we are in USI we still won't be interviewed by RTE and considering our tiny size our voice will be lost in USI anyway.

The couple of meetings with the ministers have even recently had good results: the government will soon be voting on legislation to reform the grants system - basically replacing the high number of grant-giving organisations with one, large body, in an attempt to speed up the time taken processing applications. USI suggested, and lobbied for, this change.

The government have been planning the change in the grant structure(the Student Support Bill) for the past few years and it's had nout to do with USI. If Brian Murphy wanted a meeting with Batt O'Keefe he could get one no problem.

We'll also get access to Green Training, Pink Training, National Conferences, and have an area officer working closely with our and local SUs. Joining USI will also affiliate NUIMSU/MSU with the European Students' Union.

Green training and pink training?? Unnecessary weekends away for Sabb officers, assuming green training is environmental and pink is LGBT what benefits will this "training" bring to NUIMSU?

National Conferences are talking shops for wannabe politicians and just an excuse for a piss up.

PrivateEye

I'm feeling confident of a 'Yes' vote on this one.

The F.U.S.U system has failed. I would hope if this referendum falls that Maynooth will attempt to lead the way in reforming the F.U.S.U, as from my point of view it seems on its last legs. No postal address, email address, position papers.... it's in a shambles at present.

€5 a head for national student representation is fine. The myth of UCD dominance over USI has to be challenged too, look at the list of ex-USI Presidents.

As far as I know, members of the LGBT have already gone on Pink Training courses with USI. They've seen USI at work then. The benefits of membership in Welfare areas in particular are strong.

Even during the recent strikes IFUT on campus acknowledged that the Union were in close contact with the USI on issues of concern to both staff and students. We're talking about 30 educational facilities here. I really don't think €5, for membership of such a Union, is a lot.

It will be €5. Nobody will pay for anyones membership but their own.

Pajoe89

Yes to USI simple as. Time to stop the stupid parochial attitude that naysayers seem to be spouting these days. Sure besides, in true irish fashion if its a No vote like Lisbon, we'll just do it all again!

PrivateEye

two things:

1) We need 15% turnout to carry the Referendum. Get out and vote! To get the 'Yes' vote, but not enough backing would be heartbreaking on this one.

2) Most people seem unaware there's a second question in the Referendum sheet. We'll be asked if, in the event of joining USI, we should put the matter to referendum again in three years (I'm voting Yes on this too. I'm pushing strongly for A Yes on USI, and think we should put it to the test in three years and see if people think it was a worthwhile investment. If not, they deserve the right to say so)

irish_goat

We'll be voting again in 3 years anyway when we realise what a waste of money it has been.

Pajoe89

Hmmmm. maybe you should concentrate your negativity on the €700 extra quid on the registration fee that does nothing for students. This €5 does. If you want to happily continue this farce of an argument that its a waste of money be my guest, best of luck to ya. The 40+ other colleges and a large proportion of Maynooth seem to differ with you.

irish_goat

If we all concentrated our negativity(and positivity) on the €700 we'd be far better off. Ploughing €38,000 a year into an organisation which brings such wonderous benefits as "national conferences", "green and pink training", RTE interviews, campaigns that not all student members may agree with and a few meetings with the Minister of Education does not seem like a good idea to me. As I've said, I like NUS in the UK and I'm open to USI membership but the reasons people have been giving here to support our joining have been pretty rubbish.

I'll ask you all this, will the average NUIM student be better off as a member of USI?

Pajoe89

irish_goat wrote: »

If we all concentrated our negativity(and positivity) on the €700 we'd be far better off. Ploughing €38,000 a year into an organisation which brings such wonderous benefits as "national conferences", "green and pink training", RTE interviews, campaigns that not all student members may agree with and a few meetings with the Minister of Education does not seem like a good idea to me. As I've said, I like NUS in the UK and I'm open to USI membership but the reasons people have been giving here to support our joining have been pretty rubbish.

I'll ask you all this, will the average NUIM student be better off as a member of USI?

Well then the only argument the nay sayers have been giving is irrelevent. In any situation, it is better to be together then on ones own, which NUiM is at the minute.

The idea that you say 38 thousand to make it sound less attractive is a lame attempt to make it appear as a waste of money. Students are constantly unestimated and therefore ripped offdue to the fact of division on things like not being in USI.

Similar to the public/private divide, its a shoddy tactic to prevent students from gaining any form of future in this country. Joining USI is a significant step in the over all national student movement. We need to think outside of the secure boundaries of our own university and see that we are together with every other 3rd level institution and student in the country.

Seren_

irish_goat wrote: »

I'll ask you all this, will the average NUIM student be better off as a member of USI?

Surely it's a better idea for NUIM to have a say in things that affect students? As a member of the USI this would happen, certainly more than it does now. Personally, I think it's a bit ridiculous that the university isn't a part of the USI in the first place. What does FUSU even do?

Five euro is not a lot of money. We might as well try it out for a while, if it doesn't work, people can vote to leave it after three years (assuming that bit of the referendum is passed).

Pajoe89

FUSU is the Forum for University Student Unions and while some like to regard it as a rival to USI it is nothing like that. As far as I know, and it isn't too much it was a place for the universities to discuss various Uni issues as the I.Ts have a different structure in many aspects.

However, its failure lies in it's inability to have all of the 7 universities with only ourselves UL and i think UCC members at this stage. trinity n ucd recently decided to leave as they saw no need or use for it as it provided little or no real objectives or leadership.

While i have nothing against FUSU, for it to fulfill its purpose it needs everyone. For me I see rejoining USI as a step in the right direction. If all Irish Universities are united together (along with the I.Ts), there is nothing to stop them from running its own successful University Forum either in the shape of FUSU or an affiliate body of USI. It should not be seen as a snobbish elitism against I.Ts but a unique aspect of University life.

Am i making any sense here to people?

Duddy

Pajoe89 wrote: »

FUSU is the Forum for University Student Unions and while some like to regard it as a rival to USI it is nothing like that. As far as I know, and it isn't too much it was a place for the universities to discuss various Uni issues as the I.Ts have a different structure in many aspects.

However, its failure lies in it's inability to have all of the 7 universities with only ourselves UL and i think UCC members at this stage. trinity n ucd recently decided to leave as they saw no need or use for it as it provided little or no real objectives or leadership.

While i have nothing against FUSU, for it to fulfill its purpose it needs everyone. For me I see rejoining USI as a step in the right direction. If all Irish Universities are united together (along with the I.Ts), there is nothing to stop them from running its own successful University Forum either in the shape of FUSU or an affiliate body of USI. It should not be seen as a snobbish elitism against I.Ts but a unique aspect of University life.

Am i making any sense here to people?

Yupyup!
FUSU in theory is a great idea, however, in reality, its only the SU presidents who go, apart from that there's no input from students, no funding etc - its more a discussion group than an organisation at the mo.

irish_goat

Your Text Here wrote: »

Surely it's a better idea for NUIM to have a say in things that affect students? As a member of the USI this would happen, certainly more than it does now. Personally, I think it's a bit ridiculous that the university isn't a part of the USI in the first place. What does FUSU even do?

Five euro is not a lot of money. We might as well try it out for a while, if it doesn't work, people can vote to leave it after three years (assuming that bit of the referendum is passed).

We already have a say in things that affect students. The SU can meet with the government if they need to.

None of you'se really answered my question. If a normal, everyday students asks why they've been charged another fiver what do you say to them? "Having an input in things that affect students" is rubbish without anything tangible at the end of it. What will USI achieve with our membership that will directly benefit NUIM students? I'm all for linking up our universities lads, but USI doesn't cut it and it shouldn't just be a case of "ah well it's only a fiver, no one will notice".

declan06

irish_goat wrote: »

If Brian Murphy wanted a meeting with Batt O'Keefe he could get one no problem.

Well considering when he wrote to the minister in relation to the student services fee he got a generic response no he can't.

irish_goat wrote: »

National Conferences are talking shops for wannabe politicians and just an excuse for a piss up.

I must disagree, as equality officer I attended pink training, and it was very useful and well ran.

PrivateEye

Well considering when he wrote to the minister in relation to the student services fee he got a generic response no he can't.

Exactly. I think everyone, Brian included, was more than a tad irked by that response from Batts secretary to the letter sent by our SU.

The day after the referendum, USI have a lobby of the Oireachtas.

irish_goat

declan06 wrote: »

Well considering when he wrote to the minister in relation to the student services fee he got a generic response no he can't.

What's the context here? What was the question asked and what was the response? Either way, did he ask for a meeting? I doubt O'Keefe would refuse one.

I must disagree, as equality officer I attended pink training, and it was very useful and well ran.

Great for you no doubt but in what way does the average student benefit from this? Is it really worth a fiver a head/€38,000 grand (whatever way you want to put it)?

PrivateEye

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