Are you happy with the "new" firearms licencing system ?

Our man in Havana

My experience has been positive.

From shoving the envelope thru the letterbox of my local one man station to getting the grant letters, 12 days. It took me 10 weeks and 8 weeks respectively under the old system. There was a small hip-up with one grant letter which was fixed the same day.

My super and FO are both decent chaps and very understanding which would have alot to do with it.

bunny shooter

Bond-007 wrote: »

...............

My super and FO are both decent chaps and very understanding which would have alot to do with it.

Good luck to you.

My FO is sound the current Super is another story :rolleyes:

These guidelines unfortunately are a red herring in a lot of ways as it leads/led people to believe that they will be dealt with by a fairly standard set of "rules" when in fact it is a totally at the discretion of the Super/Chief Super as it always was I have previously dealt with decent Supers too.......but they got moved

No change there in reality.

These guidelines are a paper exercise used to fob shooters off and give the illusion of progress. They need to have a legal standing to be any good.

Our man in Havana

I totally agree. The guidlines need to be set in stone as law to be of any use.

Sparks

Given the "whoopsies" that tend to creep into what is law, let alone the outright kicks in the teeth that jump in there as well, I'm not sure that more law is what we need... or what we needed to begin with. I said it six years ago, and I'm still of the same opinion; you don't need legislation to get consistency. You need training of the Gardai assigned to these roles and a lack of tolerance for unprofessionalism. And you can't actually get those from a new law.

dos29

Sparks wrote: »

You need training of the Gardai assigned to these roles and a lack of tolerance for unprofessionalism. And you can't actually get those from a new law.

Can you get them at the moment?
Surely if its laid out blatantly in a law, it has to be adhered to by guards? And that in turn gives more of a standing for redressing wrongs?

I'm all for "If its not broke, don't fix it", but if it's OBVIOUSLY broke, why not PUSH to fix it?

It doesn't seem to me like training Guards in firearms law is of the highest priority at the moment, or ever will be.

Sparks, I'd be all for your train of thought if the proper authorities played ball, but they don't, so I don't.

Sparks

dos29 wrote: »

Can you get them at the moment?

No, and we couldn't get them prior to the Misc.Provisions bill, the Criminal Justice Bill 2007 or the Criminal Justice Bill 2006. All of which were put forward with consistency as a primary motivating factor.

Surely if its laid out blatantly in a law, it has to be adhered to by guards?

Certainly. You just have to take them to court if they fail to adhere to the law. But then, this is the fundamental basis of each and every case that any shooter has ever taken the Gardai to court on -- that the Gardai did not adhere to the law. And while the number of cases won is heartening from one point of view, the more pragmatic view might be that there were dozens of cases lined up before all the changes to the Firearms Act started in 2004; and there are dozens of cases lined up now. So the behaviour of the Gardai has been unchanged despite a near-total rewriting of the Firearms Acts over the course of several years and bills with consistency as a prime goal for those rewrites.

In other words, it's easy to write a law, but it won't get us what we want.

I'm all for "If its not broke, don't fix it", but if it's OBVIOUSLY broke, why not PUSH to fix it?

Because some doors are push doors and some doors are pull doors.
We've tried rewriting the law. The entire Firearms Act has been rewritten since 2004. Core principles have been redrafted, wording has been changed, and we appear to be none the better for it today.
If it didn't work last time (and we paid a fairly high price for the last six years of rewriting), why would we do it all over again?

It doesn't seem to me like training Guards in firearms law is of the highest priority at the moment, or ever will be.

Nope.
However, if the solution is A, and it doesn't look like A will be done, chasing B is not the right approach to the problem.

Sparks, I'd be all for your train of thought if the proper authorities played ball, but they don't, so I don't.

My train of thought is based on the idea that the proper authorities won't necessarily play ball.
(At least in the edge cases. We're still talking about the 1-2% of cases at the very very most from what the numbers say).

murph226

I applied for a firearms cert for my new rifle and an export license for my pistol on the 14/12/09.

Today I received the export license and a letter acknowledging my application for the rifle license or as they put it "weapon".

They tell me that a decision will normally be communicated before 10/5/10.

Sure thats great, just six months:rolleyes:

I hate to say it, but this sh*t really puts me off shooting:mad:

Mr.Flibble

murph226 wrote: »

I hate to say it, but this sh*t really puts me off shooting:mad:

I hate to say it, but that's the general idea.

Nil illegitimus carborundum

jap gt

murph226 wrote: »

I applied for a firearms cert for my new rifle and an export license for my pistol on the 14/12/09.

Today I received the export license and a letter acknowledging my application for the rifle license or as they put it "weapon".

They tell me that a decision will normally be communicated before 10/5/10.

Sure thats great, just six months:rolleyes:

I hate to say it, but this sh*t really puts me off shooting:mad:

i would take the letter saying you would get an answer by 10/05/10 as a good thing, i got that letter on a monday had my grant letter on the wednesday and licence in my hand the following monday, it may just be the same case with you, best of luck with it

overall im very happy with it so far, applied for my first licence and a month to the day i applied had my licence in my hand

murph226

I hope its the same case here, but I'm not going to get my hopes up!

I'm finished in college in four weeks, aslong as I have it by then I'll be happy, take a few days leave to run her in;)

cheers Murph

Darr

I waited 6-7 months before I ever got the acknowledgment letter (including many many phone calls , vists , etc )

I got them on a Monday and got the grant letter on the following monday had the license on the friday ..

so hold tough , the system sucks but eventually it might work .

darr

Boiled-egg

Why dont the authorities licence the indivudal.
This means that when a person applies for their first firearm they can be put through a comprenhesive vetting procedure.
Once vetted and approved they are issued with a licence to own/possess firearms with their pulse ID number. Then on purchasing wepons the Firearms dealer just submits the weapon details along with the pulse ID number assiocated with that firearm, via some type on online system.

Of course this works on the principal that the authorities do their job correctely the first time.

It baffels me why I will have to go through the same rigmarole, to purchase another shot gun when I have been deemed safe and competment all ready.
I'm sure this would reduce the workload on the gardai as well.
??????

bunny shooter

I think this was requested by shooting organisations but at €80 per licence instead of €80 per individual I reckon it's all about money for the government :mad:

Sparks

It was lobbied for (and still is) but the changes to the law that happened in 2006 (and the addendums in 2007 and 2009) didn't make the change so we're stuck with it until the next time someone rewrites the entire act...

Dvs

Boiled-egg wrote: »

Why dont the authorities licence the indivudal.
This means that when a person applies for their first firearm they can be put through a comprenhesive vetting procedure.
Once vetted and approved they are issued with a licence to own/possess firearms with their pulse ID number. Then on purchasing wepons the Firearms dealer just submits the weapon details along with the pulse ID number assiocated with that firearm, via some type on online system.

Of course this works on the principal that the authorities do their job correctely the first time.

It baffels me why I will have to go through the same rigmarole, to purchase another shot gun when I have been deemed safe and competment all ready.
I'm sure this would reduce the workload on the gardai as well.
??????

Hello Boiled-egg,
You are making the mistake of applying logic and common sense,
the "improvements" in the firearms licensing system are about justifications for refusing firearms licenses to law abiding people for no good reason.

Being a law abiding person,
having a need for a particular firearm for a sporting purpose,
being in full compliance with the firearms storage S.I. 2009,
being a member of a club,
having training in the safe use of firearms,
not being disentitled to carry use and possess a firearm,
providing the names of two people to vouch for you,
providing the name of your doctor and giving consent for your medical history to be checked, all the things which your application for a fireams license requires for your application to be processed are not enough, passing the vetting of all this information is not enough.

No your application depends on,
the opinion of a Superintendent or Chief Superintendent that is totally unqualified to have an opinion on, whether the firearm you wish to license is the only firearm appropriate for the purpose for which you require it.

The ultimate refusal justification,
you have satisfied all the requirements which are demonstrable facts,
but you have not satisfied me, an unqualified person to make a subjective decision on something I know absolutely nothing about.

Dvs.

murph226

Grant letter arrived this evening, should have the rifle by next week:D

elius

Handed my applications in on the 16th of march. Guard came out today look at the safe and double checked all the guns serial numbers said all was fine and i should have my grant letters in 2 weeks or so. Also asked about the mod and he said he would put it through. So i'm pretty impressed to be honest there not hanging around in my area..
Anyone else have the guns checked over?

foxshooter243

elius wrote: »

Handed my applications in on the 16th of march. Guard came out today look at the safe and double checked all the guns serial numbers said all was fine and i should have my grant letters in 2 weeks or so. Also asked about the mod and he said he would put it through. So i'm pretty impressed to be honest there not hanging around in my area..
Anyone else have the guns checked over?

yep , had all serial numbers checked to see if they correspond and safe checked at the same time.

elius

foxshooter243 wrote: »

yep , had all serial numbers checked to see if they correspond and safe checked at the same time.

He also ticked the box for sights when he saw the scope. Didnt think you had to tick themas scope aren't illegal

Hartman

In theory it actually sounded 'OK' it has turned out to be a shambles..


The main problem is... which was also the problem with the old system is that your average Joe member hasn't a clue about firearms. Most have no interest in dealing with firearms applications full stop. They are even less interested in it now as theres more paperwork to fill out and even more ways that they can '****' it up. I have not met one Garda yet that actually knows about different calibres or infact any worthwhile information that would assist you at the desk.

And what happened with the Passport sized photos attached to your application... I was told they went in the bin

Sparks

No, mine were still clipped to the paperwork in the file when I picked up my licences there in November.

And in theory, we knew it sounded bad from day one, back in 2004.

Our man in Havana

The photos are probably now making up a mugshot book.

Sparks

It wouldn't surprise me, there seem to be very lax standards in AGS regarding data protection.

Hartman

I was under the impression they would be uploaded to pulse so they had a nice mugshot for every licensed firearm owner in the country... Since then I had been told they went in the bin eventually.

Sparks

That's worrying, last time something went in the bin from the firearms side of things, a post office got robbed with a handed-in-and-marked-as-destroyed pistol...

Traumadoc

Got some of my licenses in October, submitted for substitution in November, nothing since:(

Slick50

I think the new application system was put in place for one reason only, and that was to trawl through every firearms license, and sieve out as many firearms certificates as they possibly could. Most of the new regulations are practicable, and good ideas. But that doesn't change the fact that the new system is being used to thwart and frustrate applicants.
Even with the guidlines issued by the commisioner, there are wholesale discrepancies in how it is being applied and administered. And being forced to re-apply every three years, with no reason or justification, is an absolute disgrace. Dermot Ahearn publicly stated his desire to remove all firearms from private ownership.

tonysopprano

Two weeks ago, there was an advert printed in all national newspapers pleading with firearms holders, to renew licences.. This situation has been caused by the new system and the 9 page form.

The result is that the only people(most anyway) that have renewed their FAC's are holders of restricted licences and the situation now arises that AGS now have NO idea of how many firearms are in public hands as many have handed in/destroyed firearms and most have not been renewed and the rest are unlicenced, but AGS cannot differentiate.

The legislation that was brought in against , particularly pistol holders, has now made us the biggest law abiding section of firearms holders, and has made most other firearms holders criminals or at least suspected criminals, until you can prove otherwise, as can be seen from the 25/03/10 debate.

Way to go Dermot.

Linking to another forum topic about putting forward someone in the next election, can we show how much we contributed to the old system in renewal fees compared to the new system (where X% have not renewed) plus the cost of all the court actions

Odysseus

tonysopprano wrote: »

Two weeks ago, there was an advert printed in all national newspapers pleading with firearms holders, to renew licences.. This situation has been caused by the new system and the 9 page form.

The result is that the only people(most anyway) that have renewed their FAC's are holders of restricted licences and the situation now arises that AGS now have NO idea of how many firearms are in public hands as many have handed in/destroyed firearms and most have not been renewed and the rest are unlicenced, but AGS cannot differentiate.

The legislation that was brought in against , particularly pistol holders, has now made us the biggest law abiding section of firearms holders, and has made most other firearms holders criminals or at least suspected criminals, until you can prove otherwise, as can be seen from the 25/03/10 debate.

Way to go Dermot.

Linking to another forum topic about putting forward someone in the next election, can we show how much we contributed to the old system in renewal fees compared to the new system (where X% have not renewed) plus the cost of all the court actions

I think it might have something to do with the last of the extentions running out, my air-rifle was extended until the end of June, so we not into the last three months. Though maybe your right in that's there is more to the ads than I thought. With me having one of the last extentions I was putting 2+2 together and my adding was never the best;)

daveob007

I hate all that paperwork,sucha waste, ok if its for a first time applicant but there should be a form for every gun you wish to own after that with just new gun details and the persons pulse id required,the rest is on file.

and even after you have complied with the new laws and commishioners guidelines you are then subject to whether the super or chief super is satisfied or not, not acceptable in my view,if you have done all the right things then the opinion of a super should have no bearing on your application.
also the way in which supers change stuff in the guidelines,ie ammo ammounts sound moderators etc.


restriced list is a joke also, what makes a firearm more dangerous???its looks certainly don't but its not the gun its the person behind the trigger.

over all a major mess.