Hooliganism issues in LOI {Mod Note #1}

CSF

MOD NOTE:

If you're that desperate to discuss the small minded minority that bring this rubbish up whereever they go and only use football matches and affiliation as an excuse for causing trouble you can keep it all to the one thread. Do not abuse other posters, or revert to calling each other and opposition members abusive names or you will be banned from the forum.

This thread is not a free for all

stovelid wrote: »

Bad clothing isn't a crime yet.

Lets not go down this road. Every Dublin club has their own percentage of scobes and our crowds are the biggest hence the relatively larger percentage.

I've been around long enough to see bad behaviour from a fair few clubs, including every Dublin clubm but why not talk football? We're discussing a non-story in real terms; small numbers in the scheme of things and we're playing into the hands of the enemies of the league.

There were innocent people getting dragged off luas' to have the **** kicked into them. Hell of alot worse than a few skoolies fighting each other. The worst part is that this is the Rovers attitude to it, a lack of caring. Those same people will be back there for the next Dublin derby and a few more people will have it happen again, and the likes of you will just be on about how 'ah it happens all the time'. But it doesn't happen all the time. And its just coincidental that when it does happen Rovers fans and Bohs fans normally are the people involved.

stovelid

CSF wrote: »

There were innocent people getting dragged off luas' to have the **** kicked into them. Hell of alot worse than a few skoolies fighting each other. The worst part is that this is the Rovers attitude to it, a lack of caring. Those same people will be back there for the next Dublin derby and a few more people will have it happen again, and the likes of you will just be on about how 'ah it happens all the time'. But it doesn't happen all the time. And its just coincidental that when it does happen Rovers fans and Bohs fans normally are the people involved.

I'm not sure you should interpret me saying I don't want to go down this road as saying I don't care. We can swap stories about Shels, Bohs and Rovers stuff I've seen going back 10 or so years, including innocents getting thumped as recently as two years ago. English stuff too, except the fans of those clubs on here don't have rake up every stupid act committed by saps at length to discredit other clubs.

What you say sounds awful but what do you think clubs should do about public order offences that happen a few miles away from the ground?

CSF

stovelid wrote: »

I'm not sure you should interpret me saying I don't want to go down this road as saying I don't care. We can swap stories about Shels, Bohs and Rovers stuff I've seen going back 10 or so years, including innocents getting thumped as recently as two years ago. English stuff too, except the fans of those clubs on here don't have rake up every stupid act committed by saps at length to discredit other clubs.

What you say sounds awful but what do you think clubs should do about public order offences that happen a few miles away from the ground?

I think they should ban said fans from attending any Rovers games home or away, these events happened by a Luas with CCTV, if a report of this is made to Shamrock Rovers along with one to the police, do you think Shamrock Rovers will go above and beyond to make sure these kind of vermin don't make it into the ground again? I don't, because me and you both know these exact people have done it dozens of times before. And incase you think I'm a neutral, I am a Shels fan, I used to post here under the name DSB, but lost my account during the hack.

stovelid

CSF wrote: »

I think they should ban said fans from attending any Rovers games home or away, these events happened by a Luas with CCTV, if a report of this is made to Shamrock Rovers along with one to the police, do you think Shamrock Rovers will go above and beyond to make sure these kind of vermin don't make it into the ground again? I don't, because me and you both know these exact people have done it dozens of times before. And incase you think I'm a neutral, I am a Shels fan, I used to post here under the name DSB, but lost my account during the hack.

Well, I think people doing that should face a ban too. From both clubs. The small minority as we both know, although we all like discussing it like it's the Battle of the Somme.

I wasn't there but there was very little trouble last season so I assume both sides were taking advantage of the seemingly minimal policing and were both involved.

CSF

stovelid wrote: »

Well, I think people doing that should face a ban too. From both clubs. The small minority as we both know, although we all like discussing it like it's the Battle of the Somme.

I wasn't there but there was very little trouble last season so I assume both sides were taking advantage of the seemingly minimal policing and were both involved.

You'd assume wrong, this was purely a Rovers hoolie thing. Didn't see a single Shels fan at anything, they'd have been killed. We don't make em out our way like what yous and Bohs have got. Theres a few idiots but they're pretty harmless in the scheme of things. And the new board actively makes efforts to ban these people and keep them out of the club.
http://www.shelbournefc.ie/news.php?id=1265
Heres an example. And I know of numerous people who were banned for much less than what these lads were upto tonight.

dreamers75

a ****ing pre season game ........LOL!!!!!!

CSF

dreamers75 wrote: »

a ****ing pre season game ........LOL!!!!!!

Exactly. Pure dirt.

stovelid

CSF wrote: »

Exactly. Pure dirt.

Yis weren't that bad? Workmanlike perhaps.

CSF

stovelid wrote: »

Yis weren't that bad? Workmanlike perhaps.

We probably were that bad also.

Gavin "shels"

dfx- wrote: »

I was in the West Stand..I'd say easily 2,000..2,500 with about 300 Shels fans

SDCC stand cleared out of lot at half time.


As for the trouble, never seen so many Meath St Stone Island and Burberry Clobber in a place running arounds Tallaght garages in my life. Scum and nothing less.

Gavin "shels"

stovelid wrote: »

Hopefully Shels do come back up soon, even next month maybe.

Hopefully we don't, absolute disgrace what happened after the match to a few Shels fans. Just heard of my mate ther about the incidents and it's shocking and before they attacked the Shels fans they were hassling a carer of a guy in a wheelchair. Shocking.

Hopefully see an article about this in the oul Tallaght Echo in College next week, shine through show of Rovers real true colours.

CSF

How come yous generally ignore talk about your scum element and their actions?

Hard Worker

CSF wrote: »

How come yous generally ignore talk about your scum element and their actions?

We don't.
I presume what you are referring to is the trouble at the Luas. Obviously, because it happened away from the stadium, we would have to depend on a Garda report. If the Club receive a Garda report, it would be acted upon.
In an earlier post, you mentioned CCTV footage. If the Gardai investigate a claim of assault at the Luas then they may examine the footage. I presume someone has made a statement. If they havn't, then don't bother with any more silly comments like above. If they have made a statement, then that's great.

CSF

Hard Worker wrote: »

We don't.
I presume what you are referring to is the trouble at the Luas. Obviously, because it happened away from the stadium, we would have to depend on a Garda report. If the Club receive a Garda report, it would be acted upon.
In an earlier post, you mentioned CCTV footage. If the Gardai investigate a claim of assault at the Luas then they may examine the footage. I presume someone has made a statement. If they havn't, then don't bother with any more silly comments like above. If they have made a statement, then that's great.

So until the guards get their act together (which they won't), Rovers have no intention on getting their act together either and striving to rid themselves of the horrible problems your club has? Its really worrying that your club is trying to market itself to families.

dfx-

The perpetraitors (whomever they were) could still wait at a Luas stop next time, regardless. Rovers don't control the queues at Luas stops.

In the ground, I'd have issues on stewarding on Friday night certainly, I counted two stewards.

CiaranC

CSF wrote: »

So until the guards get their act together (which they won't), Rovers have no intention on getting their act together either and striving to rid themselves of the horrible problems your club has? Its really worrying that your club is trying to market itself to families.

"We" dont have "horrible problems". If the Garda give us names of people we can ban them. Even then we can do nothing when they are away from the stadium, same as any other football club. What do you want us to do, set up undercover vigilante groups across the breadth of Tallaght?

The fact is, and I speak as a resident of the area for almost 30 years, there is a antisocial behavior problem in Tallaght. Its been here long before Rovers ever were. Its unfortunate if the local Oiks decide to up their game on matchnights when there are a few juicy "targets" for their thuggery around, buts its a policing issue first and foremost.

stovelid

What exactly do you want the club to do?

The underlying issue here is the same as the Joe nDo so-called incident or the small percentage of our own support that are obsessed with Boez finances. You want our board to do something: flagellate themselves publicly over every public-order incident that happens in the city on match night. Whether or not that's because of your usual hoiler-than-thou attitude, or just plain hay-making because of club-rivalry, I don't know.

I've certainly never heard much from other clubs about the fact that our away buses (or public buses) are bricked on a depressingly regular basis. Nor would I really expect the clubs to. It's a policing issue.

Should the FAI issue a press release every time a couple of bell-ends who may or may not have even been at an Ireland match get into trouble on match-night?

If the police or anybody else can furnish evidence that anybody involved in such a fracas was at the game, let alone regular supporters, I'm sure action will be taken.

All any club can reasonably do is try and ensure that the ground and immediate environs are trouble-free and also act on any hard evidence that they get. Rovers have a good relationship with the police in Tallaght, who hopefully will continue to gather experience and tweak policing to rout anybody causing trouble in Tallaght on match-nights.

Hopefully if there was CCTV there, we can see what will come of it.

bohsman

CiaranC wrote: »

"We" dont have "horrible problems".

Defending racist chants and bottling linesmen?

Stovelid, whatever about the fact that there were only a few fans making the monkey noises there was also the elephant washing song.

As for the schooligans bricking buses, all banned a long time now.

stovelid

bohsman2 wrote: »

all banned a long time now.

Not from some away matches, it would seem.

bohsman

A steward travels to away games making sure banned people dont get in. Im sure some slip through the cracks but its certainly more than "we'll ban them if the guards tell us to"

CiaranC

bohsman2 wrote: »

Defending racist chants and bottling linesmen?

Stovelid, whatever about the fact that there were only a few fans making the monkey noises there was also the elephant washing song.

As for the schooligans bricking buses, all banned a long time now.

All of the better supported clubs, especially those in Dublin, have a few issues with their support. Bohs might have banned some schooligans from Dalymount, but they couldnt "ban" them from stoning public buses on D'Olier St when Bohs werent even playing, because of course it was outside their control. Buses were attacked in Sligo and Dundalk last year also, again by local gurriers away from the ground.

bohsman

CiaranC wrote: »

All of the better supported clubs, especially those in Dublin, have a few issues with their support. Bohs might have banned some schooligans from Dalymount, but they couldnt "ban" them from stoning public buses on D'Olier St when Bohs werent even playing, because of course it was outside their control. Buses were attacked in Sligo and Dundalk last year also, again by local gurriers away from the ground.

Absolutely, agree with that, however with us now that they've been banned a few years they seem to have moved on, Shels relegation happened at the right time aswell as they had been heading to Tolka to throw shapes as they couldn't get into Dalymount.

TheBigLebowski

bohsman2 wrote: »

Defending racist chants and bottling linesmen?

There was an FAI investigation which cleared Rovers regarding the "racist chants". It's very easy to come on here and blow things up to make them look like they were major incidents at a game. I was at the game in the middle of the stand where these alleged chants came from and I didn't hear anything. When you have 6000 supporters at highly charged derby, there will always be unacceptable isolated incidents, but what do you expect rovers to do? What could they have done in this case? You would need a steward in every 2nd seat to catch every incident.

Regards the "bottling" incident. This was of course unacceptable and I have no doubt that if rovers could identify the culprit, they would be banned. But in the absence of any CCTV or actual proof against anyone, what more could they do in this incident? They did take steps with announcements, articles in the programs etc. I would expect that if these problems were more widespread, then rovers would have to take more action.

In any case, I wouldn't be any expert now but where I come from, the term "bottling" always refers to someone being attacked with a glass bottle (i.e. smashed over their head etc.) and not being hit by a half empty bottle of coke or whatever. If that's the case, I've been bottled loads of times with empty plastic bottles by my little brother. Obviously the incident is unacceptable but this point scoring by rival fans trying to talk up incidents is pathethic and boring and I don't know why I took the bait to be honest....should I go over to the Bohs thread now and start highlighting every incident that occurs at Bohs games and talk them up?

bohsman

I was talking about the elephant washing song from earlier in the season. Do Rovers seriously not have cctv? They should really look into getting that sorted if they have any interest in fixing the problem.

A lot of Rovers fans do highlight every little thing involving Bohs, they've been wrong on most things recently thankfully and have been keeping very quiet the last few days. Best place for leaked bohs info is the rovers forum btw. Id be fairly certain that theres at least 2 threads discussing Bohs in debt in the "other clubs" section of the rovers forum.

stovelid

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

In any case, I wouldn't be any expert now but where I come from, the term "bottling" always refers to someone being attacked with a glass bottle (i.e. smashed over their head etc.) and not being hit by a half empty bottle of coke or whatever. If that's the case, I've been bottled loads of times with empty plastic bottles by my little brother. Obviously the incident is unacceptable but this point scoring by rival fans trying to talk up incidents is pathethic and boring and I don't know why I took the bait to be honest....should I go over to the Bohs thread now and start highlighting every incident that occurs at Bohs games and talk them up?

Half-empty plastic coke bottle and not near the linesman's head.

Not saying it's acceptable of course. If I recall correctly, the kid involved was actually subject to severe verbal chastisement from the crowd and had to leave the stand.

Coming on here, the Boez forum or Fool.ie and implying that linesmen are being 'bottled' just makes neutrals think the place is a bloodbath every second Saturday.

Of course, that's par for the course in LOI. Better to scare people away from already empty grounds just to get one up on your rivals.

Gavin "shels"

Hard Worker wrote: »

We don't.

Doing a pretty good of it on the oul Shams Ultra forum anyway. All fine and dandy, just fine ad dandy.

TheBigLebowski

bohsman2 wrote: »

I was talking about the elephant washing song from earlier in the season. Do Rovers seriously not have cctv? They should really look into getting that sorted if they have any interest in fixing the problem.

The elephant washing song happened in Dalymount in the first derby (I heard it). Never happened in Tallaght. Not saying it's right just pointing out that CCTV in Tallaght won't catch incidents in Dalymount.

bohsman2 wrote: »

A lot of Rovers fans do highlight every little thing involving Bohs.

I know, sad isn't it? why are you doing it? They do it for the same reasons you do it.

CSF

CiaranC wrote: »

"We" dont have "horrible problems".

You most cetainly do. But the Rovers way is too brush it under the carpet and pretend to be a family club. Terrible stuff. At least Bohs have tried to do something about their scum element. Granted, nothing can be done by the club at the Luas stop, but whether or not it would serve as a deterrent, the club shouldn't be allowing them in, and taking every opportunity to disassociate themselves from them.

stovelid

CSF wrote: »

Granted, nothing can be done by the club at the Luas stop

.

CSF

stovelid wrote: »

.

Ok grand so, just let them in every week then. Unless you think identifying them would be really difficult.

aliveandkicking

CSF wrote: »

Ok grand so, just let them in every week then. Unless you think identifying them would be really difficult.

How would the club go about identifying these individuals? Data protection means they can't get to view the CCTV from the Luas, only the Gardai can do that. As pointed out already, it's in the hands of the Gardai. If they supply the club's security officer with the identities of those involved, the club will ban them.

Gavin "shels"

aliveandkicking wrote: »

How would the club go about identifying these individuals? Data protection means they can't get to view the CCTV from the Luas, only the Gardai can do that. As pointed out already, it's in the hands of the Gardai. If they supply the club's security officer with the identities of those involved, the club will ban them.

Suppose that's a fair point. But surely the guards could supply Rovers with pictures and they can ban them. It's obvious they were Shams fans and there's no need to start doing what they're at over on the Ultras forum and sweeping it under the carpet, 3 Shels fans were very seriously assaulted by Rovers fans who were most likely at the match and most likely are ones who are pictured around bebo wearing their finest Meath St clobber.

CSF

aliveandkicking wrote: »

How would the club go about identifying these individuals? Data protection means they can't get to view the CCTV from the Luas, only the Gardai can do that. As pointed out already, it's in the hands of the Gardai. If they supply the club's security officer with the identities of those involved, the club will ban them.

Shouldn't the club be asking for this? There isn't a hope the Gardai would deny them it.

aliveandkicking

CSF wrote: »

Shouldn't the club be asking for this? There isn't a hope the Gardai would deny them it.

How do you know they are not? Rovers do deal proactively with these incidents when they occur, they just don't do it in public. Several people were banned from Rovers games last season but they don't issue a press release highlighting this for obvious reasons. No matter what fans of other clubs think it is a tiny tiny minority of the 4000+ average crowds going to Tallaght stadium that cause bother. Even at that incidents like the Luas happen rarely. (Still not acceptable but far from being a widespread problem with Rovers fans)

CiaranC

CSF wrote: »

Shouldn't the club be asking for this? There isn't a hope the Gardai would deny them it.

The club work very closely with the Gardai, as has been repeatedly said on this thread. If there is information available from the Garda of who was involved (was a complaint even made?), the club will have it.

major bill

what do people expect a board elected by the 400 club who have members that are hooligans themselves to do????

rovers will sweep this under the carpet again!!

stovelid

major bill wrote: »

what do people expect a board elected by the 400 club who have members that are hooligans themselves to do????

rovers will sweep this under the carpet again!!

You may want to concentrate on the precarious future of your own shit club before moralizing in here. Run along now.

If the guards can provide real evidence implicating supporters in this, I'm sure something will be done, but it's stupid (and partisan) to demand public hand-wringing every time that this happens. It's just admitting culpability where none exists.

TheBigLebowski

major bill wrote: »

what do people expect a board elected by the 400 club who have members that are hooligans themselves to do????

Well you're the expert on hooliganism. Off you go now and find some "like minded people"...

CSF

stovelid wrote: »

If the guards can provide real evidence implicating supporters in this

This seems to be the line you lads keep using, and the question I have is, at a luas stop right beside the luas with numerous cameras, how could they not.

Having said that, we both know the Gardai are a lazy bunch of individuals for the most part, we know this, so shouldn't Rovers be pushing for this. Surely yous should want these people out of your ground?

Gavin "shels"

stovelid wrote: »

You may want to concentrate on the precarious future of your own shit club before moralizing in here. Run along now.

In all fairness he is right, I know of a convicted Shams hooligan who is a member and season ticket holder of the club. So it's a fair point.

If you lot want to keep making excuses take it over to your forum, they're seem brilliant a doing that. They were Rovers fans, they did assault innocent Shels fans and they did hassle a carer of a Rovers fan who was in a wheelchair on the luas.

Hard Worker

CSF wrote: »

This seems to be the line you lads keep using, and the question I have is, at a luas stop right beside the luas with numerous cameras, how could they not.

Having said that, we both know the Gardai are a lazy bunch of individuals for the most part, we know this, so shouldn't Rovers be pushing for this. Surely yous should want these people out of your ground?

I know your passionate about this judging by your language. However, you know nothing about the way things operate in Tallaght. I'll give you a brief insight.
There is a football liaison Garda in Tallaght. There's a very close relationship between the Club and the Gardai. If someone made a complaint about the assault at the Luas, it would be dealt with by the Gardai. If any of the culprits are known to attend matches, they will be barred. That's apart from any criminal matters relating to an assault. If nobody reported the assault, then NOTHING will happen. Can't spell it out any clearer than that.
Normally, the Gardai in Tallaght are very on the ball and would cover all areas. All last season, they got crowds of up to 6300, plus the Madrid match and Cup Final, away from the ground without major hassle. There were also no traffic incidents on the busy bypass. That involves planning and manpower. I suspect that they didn't bother too much with the friendly against Shels in order to save costs. Some chicken **** hoolies saw an opportunity to attack outnumbered innocent football fans. It would be great IF the assaults were reported. Then something could be done.

stovelid

Gavin shels wrote: »

If you lot want to keep making excuses .

Nobody is making excuses Gav. Hopefully somebody can be identified and punished for what happened. Not sure what else you want.

All your OTT stuff about people's clothes, the club and the majority of the 5,000+ supporters that attend our games is just proving the point that yourself (and no doubt Bohs) are hay-making to beat the band here. It's not the first time you've made sweeping generalizations about our club, as well as other clubs. No doubt based on your omniscient network of ITK friends that seem to stationed at every incident ever involving Rovers supporters ever.

For ignoring the issue, read: waiting for evidence to act. I trust that the club will act if facts are available. I mean really, what is left to say on the matter? I know I'm finished, to be honest.

TheBigLebowski

CSF wrote: »

Surely yous should want these people out of your ground?

Of course they don't want these people out of the ground. The more the merrier as far as rovers are concerned. Sure aren't the hooligan board and members out actively recruiting hooligans.:rolleyes:

Why do people assume because they don't know about these things, that nothing is going on behind the scenes? Maybe Rovers should come on here and explain everyting that's going on to CSF et al as to the situation. I mean better off explain it to CSF than be out actually doing something about it.

Seriously, the amount of crap posted on here is ridiculous.

CSF

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

Of course they don't want these people out of the ground. The more the merrier as far as rovers are concerned. Sure aren't the hooligan board and members out actively recruiting hooligans.:rolleyes:

Why do people assume because they don't know about these things, that nothing is going on behind the scenes? Maybe Rovers should come on here and explain everyting that's going on to CSF et al as to the situation. I mean better off explain it to CSF than be out actually doing something about it.

Seriously, the amount of crap posted on here is ridiculous.

Because as with all things, it is a much stronger logic to assume that if there is no evidence that something has happened that it didn't happen, than to assume it did. Not a perfect logic, but one would think Rovers would be appealing for information on the incidents via official channels the way the Shels board are.

One would also assume that this isn't the first time these lads have done this, so if Rovers are doing such a good job with it, why are they still getting into the ground?

Gavin "shels"

stovelid wrote: »

No doubt based on your omniscient network of ITK friends that seem to stationed at every incident ever involving Rovers supporters ever.

Happens I have a mate who supports Rovers and goes to all the matches, that's how I hear every incident every incident involving Rovers.


Bit on Joe Duffy today about this incident (just listened to it there).

stovelid

Gavin shels wrote: »

Bit on Joe Duffy today about this incident (just listened to it there).

I was just told about it by a friend. He just texted me and claimed that some aul fella was on who claimed to recognize some known Shels 'lads' who were involved too.

Is that bullshit? I dunno whether my mate is trying to wind me up or not.

Don't jump down my throat - It's probably just symptomatic of the mad tales that are flying around. People like Duffy will just make everything worse.

Gavin "shels"

stovelid wrote: »

I was just told about it by a friend. He just texted me and claimed that some aul fella was on who claimed to recognize some known Shels 'lads' who were involved too.

Is that bullshit? I dunno whether my mate is trying to wind me up or not.

Don't jump down my throat - It's probably just symptomatic of the mad tales that are flying around. People like Duffy will just make everything worse.

Well the 3 attacked weren't known Shels "lads" and aren't banned. Can't say I even seen any of them at the match, the know Shels "lads" that is.

What did you see and hear on Friday dfx?

stovelid

Gavin shels wrote: »

Can't say I even seen any of them at the match, the know Shels "lads" that is.

But, but...only Rovers have a 'element'?

major bill

stovelid wrote: »

But, but...only Rovers have a 'element'?

dont think anyone can say its just rovers but you seem to have an element that will attack anyone wearing jerseys of the other team.

Gavin "shels"

stovelid wrote: »

But, but...only Rovers have a 'element'?

Read my post again, "Can't say I even seen any of them at the match, the known Shels "lads" that is." Always in Tolka, hardly ever at away matches, unless they're close.

Nearly evey club has an element.

CiaranC

major bill wrote: »

dont think anyone can say its just rovers but you seem to have an element that will attack anyone wearing jerseys of the other team.

:rolleyes: