Sligo is doing it wrong.

tedshredsonfire

yes pop growth is preferable in general and essential for retail growth and yes it can be taken as an indicator that whats happening at present aint working. I feel strongly that in some areas we are going backwards like O connell steet etc and the fact that the IDA don't push North west half enough imho. we have several empty units in finiskiln and office units etc.
The north west needs to be pushed for what it has mountains sea river lakes etc. We need to push the living space work/life balance a lot more. Work in finisklin finsih in the evening, head to strandhill for a quick surf to relax and chill then head home and still be there at a reasonable time.
For an overworked stressed executive that starts travelling to work at 6am and lands home at 8.30pm after a hard days work and travel and has no time to spend with their family we live in paradise and we should be promoting this angle.

dardevle

...



i agree with most what of you say....perhaps we only differ on who and where we push:pac:


....

animha

I agree with Ted, I'm a Cork blow-in living in Sligo and think there are very view towns in Ireland with industry and employment opps where you can live beside the Atlantic and have the quality of life most people dream of.

It's important to know the best assets we have and then sell them to create this opportunity for other people, create employment, develop innovation.

But the problem is nobody knows about Sligo, there isn't the national or international identity associated with Galway, Kerry, Cork etc. So it takes everybody to sell it and everybody must do that to create a momentum. Individuals cannot create change in isolation, it must be a collective effort.

T runner

perhaps we can get the CoC change their motto to "helping Sligo grow- in all area's except population"!

.

Ah come on! Why would they? They claim "development of local business, industry and commerce".
That is their interest. They dont claim to develop public services, housing, social infrastructure, sporting facilities etc. etc Their list is limited to 3 areas related to ...wait for it... commerce!

The list of areas where they dont claim to help Sligo grow is a lot, lot longer than in the 3 areas they do and it most definitely does not include an increase in population of Sligo Borough which negates the whole point of this thread.

dardevle wrote: »

.....

2 questions Ted..... do you believe that population growth should occur (even by default) if the necessary business, commercial, and industrial growth happens?,

No, employment in Sligo should grow. Has employment in Sligo grown between 1979 and 2006?

and if you do, is the absence of one(pop growth) not an indicator as to the absence of the other?

No need to create abstract correlations:

From page 56 of this report.

"6,769 workers resided in Sligo in April 2006. Of these, 1,483 worked outside the town leaving
5,286 persons who both lived and worked in the town. A further 8,112 workers travelled into
Sligo to work resulting in a working population of 13,398. Sligo was therefore a major net gainer
in employment terms with the number of workers almost doubling as a result of inflows."

This report gives the numbers of people working in Towns which is more relevant to the CoCs mission statement than any population statistic.

For instance. Tralee has 11,348 workers compared to a population of 22,000. Do you see?

And most damning of all Drogheda has a working poipulation of just over 11,000 with an actual population of 35,000.

Do we now conclude that the CoC is doing a good job by their own
standards?

No, CoCs the lenght and breath of ireland are only interested in protecting their members. This problem is not restricted to Sligo.

Sligo has huge potential. But it will be realised by people and not any CoC, and it will be realised by positive people not negative people.

dardevle

T runner wrote: »

.






Do we now conclude that the CoC is doing a good job by their own
standards?
No,
.

in other words they may be said to be doing it wrong:rolleyes:


....

T runner

dardevle wrote: »

in other words they may be said to be doing it wrong:rolleyes:


....

The whole idea of a chamber of commerce is wrong IMO.

However, they are not responsible for the lack of population growth in Sligo and they have not claimed to be.

If they are partly responsible for the economic development of Sligo then you could argue that thay have suceeded 13,000 jobs in Sligo town.

I dont believe they are responsible for these jobs. But thats for another thread and absolutelynothing to do with this strange population/success of CoC thread, which is clearly just an excuse for a rant.

tedshredsonfire

CoC loobys for business interests, unions lobby for employees interests, environmental groups for enviroment interests, consumer groups lobby for consumers.
Wheres the problem here lads? If you really want to see what goes on in the chamber and have or are involved in a business join it. its not a secret society

Shadow78

T_runner wrote:

From page 56 of this report.

If you have the same information from 1979 then it might be useful. As without a more hostoric report to compare the improvements its just a pretty report.

Ronan Keating

There's even a TV advert for the Glasshouse hotel.

"Sligo's only four star city centre hotel"

PUKE. Not only are they lying to the locals with the Champion newspaper but the whole country with this piece.

Vintagekits

jimmmy wrote: »

They have actually fought tooth and nail to encourage that for 30 years, and some of their members have worked 6 or 7 days weeks doing their bit in trying to help Sligo grow. Any business which wants to set up in Sligo - the same as in any other similar size centre in Ireland today - has a multitude of empty shops, units, sites etc to choose from, to buy or lease, and would be free to join their local chamber of commerce the same as they would in any other town or city. If anything, time has proven that the chamber of commerce as well as the general population should have objected more about the ghost estates which were allowed to be built in outlying areas : Sligo should have developed from the centre out, with proper planning.

no they fought tooth and nail for years to protect their own personal incomes at the expense of the growth of the town and jobs for the people and actively scuppered any attempt of competition moving into the town.

darealtulip

We went over this argument a long time ago (about a town should develop from the center outwards). A old town is not made for traffic. The street plan would never work. That's why you have to develope different like Carrick on Shannon where in contrast to sligo not manny shops closed.

Maybe they have a council which actually likes their town to develope instead of a chamber of comerce which wants a Argos to locate in a town center wher you can't park.

tedshredsonfire

are a lot of shops in the "town centre" of carrick are now closed? I was told that by a bank manager that but haven't been into the centre in a long while. Any one from C.On.S know for sure?
The thing killing sligo retal park is high rent not lack of footfall. Rents there were daft last time I checked about 5-6 years ago they were over €250,000 pa. You need to shift a hell of a lot of goods at a high margin to make a profit with that kind of overhead. I am sure they are willing to negotiate now though.

darealtulip

tedshredsonfire wrote: »

are a lot of shops in the "town centre" of carrick are now closed? I was told that by a bank manager that but haven't been into the centre in a long while. Any one from C.On.S know for sure?
The thing killing sligo retal park is high rent not lack of footfall. Rents there were daft last time I checked about 5-6 years ago they were over €250,000 pa. You need to shift a hell of a lot of goods at a high margin to make a profit with that kind of overhead. I am sure they are willing to negotiate now though.

I was there not so long ago, and yes there are a a few shops closed but others opened up. There are 1 or 2 properties still closed but I think they are developing them.

But I agree totaly with the rest you are saying. €250,000 is a lot of money for a small town like sligo. With a population of 32,000 for the whole area that would mean every person has to buy something which gives you 7.8 euro profit once a year just to cover your rent!

redarmyblues

T runner wrote: »

.

Incorrect, I have pointed out massive increases in places like Strandhill. The cachment area includes Sligo town. Ill ask again do you deny these increases? Do you deny what everyone knows in that the balooned population of Strandhill for example all are due to people working in Sligo town?

People in Strandhill and Ballisodare would completely disagree withy you obviously. Again I dont recall speaking of massive growth in the general cachment area.

Please show me where I have I have stated that the population in rural areas has fallen?

You said both those things here in the same sentence.

The population of area within 10k of Sligo town has grown significantly. Im from Strandhill and I can tell you that the population has increased massively. Im sure Ballisodare is the same and the area north of the town. The population of rural Sligo has declined with a far higher proportion now living in the same 10k cachment area of the town.

But perhaps you didn't mean to mean what you said and you will prove this by quoting from your personal mission statement

I must confess that when i started this thread that it would induce such a frenzy of denial. I thought the reaction would be suprise or disappointment, but at least now I know exactly why Sligo has done what it has done this last thirty year.

Culchie

I have lived in Villages in Europe with a larger population than Sligo. I have no idea why it is so important to promote as anything other than a rural town on the North West Coast.

Promote the good things in the area, develop them. Surfing, Culture, Tourism, Agri-Food, Fishing, Golf......that's what will bring real prosperity tp Sligo ....and then as a result, people will have money to spend in the shops....not the pther way round.

This idea that Sligo is some sort of retailing Hub/Oasis/City is utter nonsense.

darealtulip

Culchie wrote: »

I have lived in Villages in Europe with a larger population than Sligo. I have no idea why it is so important to promote as anything other than a rural town on the North West Coast.

Promote the good things in the area, develop them. Surfing, Culture, Tourism, Agri-Food, Fishing, Golf......that's what will bring real prosperity tp Sligo ....and then as a result, people will have money to spend in the shops....not the pther way round.

This idea that Sligo is some sort of retailing Hub/Oasis/City is utter nonsense.

Fair point.

jimmmy

Vintagekits wrote: »

no they fought tooth and nail for years to protect their own personal incomes at the expense of the growth of the town and jobs for the people and actively scuppered any attempt of competition moving into the town.

There is absolutely nothing to stop anyone moving in to the town or within say 10/15/20 minutes walk of the town centre. There are many hundreds of suitable premises and sites within say 1 mile of the town centre. There are numerous brown field sites. You think the chamber of commerce is a big conspiracy theory where all of the premises and land is not available for rent or sale ? Sligo is the largest urban centre within a radius of 90 miles ; it should be developed properly, and the ghost estates miles from the town centre should not have been built. A critical mass is required for visitors to Sligo, within say 1 mile of the bus + train station. Ghost retail parks in Colooney, commuters having to travel from tax incentive outposts like Coolaney, and visitors trying to find poorly located "retail" parks do not help. As fossil fuels will run out and become more expensive , people will be sorry developments were not located close to the centre of Sligo / the transport hub + the inner relief road going through Sligo. A tourist standing on the top of Knocknarea should not see relatively newly erected ribbon development all the way to Coolooney, and bungalow bliss everywhere else. Our scenery and environment is unique and precious, its in everyones interest to look after it. Building vast amounts of now empty buildings with borrowed money can now be viewed as the huge mistake it was.


Of course areas mentioned such as Surfing, Culture, Tourism, Agri-Food, Fishing, Golf should be developed further. There are already numerous people striving to promote these areas but it could be done that bit better. That is a different argument.

T runner

redarmyblues wrote: »

You said both those things here in the same sentence.




But perhaps you didn't mean to mean what you said and you will prove this by quoting from your personal mission statement

No I didnt. I said significant increase and there has been. You exagerated that to massive to try amd misrepresent me.

I must confess that when i started this thread that it would induce such a frenzy of denial. I thought the reaction would be suprise or disappointment, but at least now I know exactly why Sligo has done what it has done this last thirty year

Surprise, surprise another negative evaluation of no use to anyone.

Ive already told you that antagonism doesnt work with me. Making a sarcastic joke of mission statements to cover the fact that the CoCs mission statement contradicts directly what you claim the CoCs official mission to be.
You neither know what Sligo has done over the past 30 years nor why.

You claimed the CoCs policy in Sligo was population growth. This has proven to be false. Their official goal was increasing business in Sligo. Sligo town employs more per capita than any of these other towns. EG Drogheda with a population of 35,000 only employs 11,000 compared to Sligos 13,000. Any comment?????

Didnt think so.

The CoC seems to have suceeded by their own standards. Thats your logic.

I would suggest that the REAL goal of Sligo CoC and all CoCs is to look after their own members Full stop. Your population theory doesnt work and the CoC never claimed it in the first place.

T runner

Shadow78 wrote: »

If you have the same information from 1979 then it might be useful. As without a more hostoric report to compare the improvements its just a pretty report.

Just a pretty report?

It shows that the level of employment is higher in Sligo town than in all those other towns listed. It shows that this whole post is just a negative load of hot air.

Culchie wrote: »

I have lived in Villages in Europe with a larger population than Sligo. I have no idea why it is so important to promote as anything other than a rural town on the North West Coast.

You have lived in a European village with 20,000 people? Name it please.
(BTW Tallaght used to be a village: no longer)

Sligo is a large town by Irish standards. Why on earth would you judge it by German, Dutch or any other standard but Irish? Would you call a German city like Bielefeld a town just because it would be a town in China for example?

Promote the good things in the area, develop them. Surfing, Culture, Tourism, Agri-Food, Fishing, Golf......that's what will bring real prosperity tp Sligo ....and then as a result, people will have money to spend in the shops....not the pther way round.

Dont forget about the Arts, thats what helped Galway's reputation.

This idea that Sligo is some sort of retailing Hub/Oasis/City is utter nonsense

Well of the 14,000 people that work in Sligo only 5,286 reside in the City. This means that the guts of 9000 commute.

Therfore it is an employment HUB. That makes it a commercial, retailing etc hub does it not? Hardly utter nonsense in any event is it?

In Mayo and other backward areas a lot of the towns have peopel but little work. Maybe thats why you dont really understand the concept of hub?

darealtulip

sligo is a small town even to Irish standard as far as I can judge from all the reactions here and the population of other places.

Shadow78

Sligo town employs more per capita than any of these other towns

can we see how you did this amazing maths? as I did it for castlebar and got .71 jobs per person living in the town. Sligo was .69

It shows that the level of employment is higher in Sligo town than in all those other towns listed. It shows that this whole post is just a negative load of hot air.

It doesnt show what rate of change there was over time. The OP was about the rate of change of sligo's population over time compared to other town. Your link just shows sligo has currently more jobs than commuter towns or other smaller west coast towns which just looks pretty with no solid information to refute anything.

dardevle

T runner wrote: »

In Mayo and other backward areas a lot of the towns have peopel but little work. Maybe thats why you dont really understand the concept of hub?

classy......i see that antagonisim does'nt work allright.:(



...

T runner

darealtulip wrote: »

sligo is a small town even to Irish standard as far as I can judge from all the reactions here and the population of other places.

Sligo is actually one of the largest towns in Ireland. If you look at the report I previously attached (titled: A Profile of the working population of large towns) you will see that more people work in Sligo than in almost any other town bar Dundalk (100 more persons work there). Besides Dundalk, Drogheda and Bray all the other large towns have populations similar to or smaller than Sligo. People may claim Sligo is a small Irish town but you shouldnt believe them unless they can substantiate it.

T runner

dardevle wrote: »

classy......i see that antagonisim does'nt work allright.:(



...

Clutching at straws now arent we?

Somebody from Mayo calling Sligo town "rural" just doesnt sit right Im afraid.
Sligo has been an urban centre for many hundreds of years. It was never a rural market town or anything like.

Have you completely given up in your floundering support for the OP now?

Shadow78 wrote: »

can we see how you did this amazing maths? as I did it for castlebar and got .71 jobs per person living in the town. Sligo was .69

OK Sligo is the second highest per capita. (Castlebar seems to be the employment centre for a large area of central Mayo.)

Its a far cry from the OPs claims that Sligo is the worst at whatever it is Sligo was supposed to be the worst at.

It doesnt show what rate of change there was over time. The OP was about the rate of change of sligo's population over time compared to other town.

No, the OP was about a claim that the CoC had population growth as an aim and the OP used a table showing urban populations to show that they had failed over time "by their own standards".

Your link just shows sligo has currently more jobs than commuter towns or other smaller west coast towns which just looks pretty with no solid information to refute anything

What is their left to refute?

We know that the CoC did not have population growth as an aim. That is dead in the water.

We know that Sligo employs more people than every other large town in Ireland bar Dundalk. Some of these towns have almost twice the population of Sligo town.

Are you now making a new claim that the CoC has failed in its aim of increasing the business in Sligo town?

If you are making this claim then lets have it with some evidence. If I disagree with you I will try and refute your evidence.

The OP is dead in the water Im afraid.

dardevle

T runner wrote: »

Clutching at straws now arent we?
.

deny, deny, deny,(bet as a kid, when you did'nt like what was being said you would cover your ears and hum loudly)

to quote you:
Please show me where I have I have stated that the population in rural areas has fallen?

The population of rural Sligo has declined ( post #6)

and post #9.....while rural Sligo has decreased.
(but i suppose decreased and declined are not the same as fallen.)

and this is'nt big or clever, it just looks like you did'nt even read or try to understand the opening post = Its a far cry from the OPs claims that Sligo is the worst at whatever it is Sligo was supposed to be the worst at.



your level of animosity toward the op seems to be a personal thing at this stage, and ironically enough your denial of everyone and all who dare think differently to you on the matter is actually quite a negative...unfortunately for you there are quite a few people from the town who are not of the same mind as you and who are now coming to realise that for positive change to occur they need to be heard....as steakholders, the chamber of commerce should of course be a part of the process, but by no means should they be allowed to continue at the reins as they have done in the recent past.....because even you must agree that when a town from "backward Mayo" is topping the per capita employment list, then we are doing something wrong.;)

maybe someone at the CoC have been following this thread, as they are making this a priority for 2010:

Sligo has suffered from divisions and splits, which has seriously hampered its development. We will work towards a joint team effort involving Sligo Chamber, local authorities, state agencies and most importantly the people of Sligo with the goal of improving the local economy for everybody.

....

darealtulip

T runner wrote: »

Sligo is actually one of the largest towns in Ireland. If you look at the report I previously attached (titled: A Profile of the working population of large towns) you will see that more people work in Sligo than in almost any other town bar Dundalk (100 more persons work there). Besides Dundalk, Drogheda and Bray all the other large towns have populations similar to or smaller than Sligo. People may claim Sligo is a small Irish town but you shouldnt believe them unless they can substantiate it.

Uhm the town metioned are comuter town to Dublin. Sligo has a population of 18.000 that is small under any standard.

Just the fact that the nearest bigger place is around 2 hours drive away and therfore a commute to these places is pretty hard explains probaly why it stays small.

Most people I know get out of Sligo as soon as they have finnished colllege. They just go where the work is and is probaly what keeps Sligo small.

T runner

darealtulip wrote: »

Uhm the town metioned are comuter town to Dublin. Sligo has a population of 18.000 that is small under any standard.

Some of the towns mentioned are commuter towns and some arent. These are all the largest towns in Ireland. There is no large town not in this report and only three towns in the R of I are larger than Sligo by any significant degree in population.Therefore Sligo is a large town by Irish population standards. It is also the second largest employer of any Irish town.

It is small town by Dutch standards, an enormous town by standards in Greenland but a large town by Irish standards.

T runner

dardevle wrote: »

deny, deny, deny,(bet as a kid, when you did'nt like what was being said you would cover your ears and hum loudly)

But that is exactly what you are doing. The whole CoC population issue is a non-runner but you are too proud too admit it.

to quote you:
Please show me where I have I have stated that the population in rural areas has fallen?

The population of rural Sligo has declined ( post #6)

Still harping on about that red herring population? If you had posted the full sentence you would see that I referred to a shift in population form rural areas (outside cachment of Sligo) to inside this cachment. The same rural shoft that has happenned all over the country.

your level of animosity toward the op seems to be a personal thing at this stage, and ironically enough your denial of everyone and all who dare think differently to you on the matter is actually quite a negative

When I say OP I mean Original Post which I disagree strongly with. I hold no animosity towrads anybody on this thread. Just because you may not be winning this argument doesnt mean I am somehow your enemy.

...unfortunately for you there are quite a few people from the town who are not of the same mind as you and who are now coming to realise that for positive change to occur they need to be heard

I would actually argue that they need to take positive action. You accuse me of being negative when all you do is mouth off and put your town down at every oppurtunity. Get out and contribute something positive. Taking the pisss out of Sligo does not constitute positivity.

....as steakholders, the chamber of commerce should of course be a part of the process, but by no means should they be allowed to continue at the reins as they have done in the recent past

What do you propose to do about it?

because even you must agree that when a town from "backward Mayo" is topping the per capita employment list, then we are doing something wrong.;)

So you are saying that even though we are the second highest employer per capita of any town and the second highest gross employer, we are clearly doing something wrong your only evidence is that Castlebar is higher per capita? Have you got your hands over your ears? Are you humming when you write this?

Sligo has suffered from divisions and splits, which has seriously hampered its development. We will work towards a joint team effort involving Sligo Chamber, local authorities, state agencies and most importantly the people of Sligo with the goal of improving the local economy for everybody.

It is probably a strategically popular statement to make but time will tell I guess. I see they are still not claiming an increase in population as a goal.

What was this thread about again youve never really given us your interpretation?

dardevle

T runner wrote: »

winning this argument

this seems to be a game of some sort to you..... bit of a competitive spirit in all areas of life for you then, and here was me thinking i was taking part in a discussion, all the while you were arguing.

Shadow78

T_Runner with an increase in the economy would mean more jobs and the more jobs would mean more people. stats showing a poor increase in population would be an indicator that there is something amiss in sligo. be it the economy in sligo hasnt grown to the same extent as elsewhere or is it a case that people think sligo is not a nice place to live in