problems with hot water also big heating bills

aurimas

Quick story - pretty new 4bed house has gas fired boiler typical heating system...occupants were complaining that the gas bill would be approx 300 eur which could be normal if the heating would be on most of the time, but in this case it is just for an hour a day...gas meter is ok..also no gas leaks or smell, even cooker is electric... despite that boiler would not heat the water in HWC ...I was thinking that thermostatic valve could be faulty on flow pipe - so I took it off, also fully open the gate valve on return pipe...after some time pipes (flow and return) to cylinder eventually got hot not very but not cold either...after an hour the water in the cylinder was still cold (warmer than from cold tap)...where is the problem? Airlock? Cause radiators are hot enough didn't check everywhere, I didn't bleed them..I guess I should- just in case? Another thing the pressure was about 3 bar on the boiler which I think is high enough...(three storey house inc habitable attic) any thoughts? suggestions? ideas? Thanks

sullzz

3 bar pressure is far too high at this pressure the safety valve should have activated. you need to reduce the pressure , bleed a radiator (catching the water in a bucket) until the pressure drops to 1.5 bar.
regarding the problem with the heat , are the radiators on the same floor as the cylinder heating , is the pump at the boiler working ,was it a thermostatic cylinder valve which you removed or was it a zone valve actuator . a bit more info would be great.

aurimas

well as I said it is two storey house with habitable attic space, so rads will be all over the house, I will definitely bleed the rads, is the 3 bar pressure can be related to the high gas bill somehow? Thanks...btw hwc and boiler are in the utility room on the ground floor

ccsolar

Hi
If the rads are getting hot but your hwc is cold then you have an air lock in the hwc.
you will need to bleed the heating coil that is in your cylinder,

CC

aurimas

how to do it if you have on flow pipe: thermostatic valve, and pressure release valve and on return just a gate valve...?

ccsolar

hi
you will have to open a joint hwc a small bit to allow the air to excape.

CC

aurimas

sounds simple, now which joint? the flow pipe for example not of the pressure release valve or at the return pipe?

sullzz

ccsolar wrote: »

hi
you will have to open a joint hwc a small bit to allow the air to excape.

CC

dont go opening any fittings unless you are very very confident at what you are doing , remember you have 3 bar pressure in that pipework.

what your reffering to as a pressure relief valve is an automatic air vent , check that the little cap on the top of this is open , if it is and you have a zone valve or summer valve on the heating , close it , and see how it goes , if you dont have either of these valves go to each of your rads and turn the flow valve off , by doing this you will be only circulating the water through the cylinder coil , so if ther is any airlock this should clear it .

I wouldnt go disconnecting any fittings at this point it could become a disaster very quickly.

aurimas

I'll check the cap. There is two room stats for each floor and they have isolation valves on return pipes, should I turn of the stats instead of rads? Thanks
And another thing is there a plan B - if nothing happens trying to bleed the heating coil in HWC?

sullzz

yeah turn the two stats down to zero , sounds like a modern enough system do you have a cylinder stat linked to a zone valve for the coil

aurimas

sullzz wrote: »

yeah turn the two stats down to zero , sounds like a modern enough system do you have a cylinder stat linked to a zone valve for the coil

Yes, I took it off, cause my first thought - what it was faulty...but nothing has been changed after.. any ideas in relation to it?

sullzz

is it a thermostatic cylinder valve ( brass fitting with a thermostatic rad valve looking head on it . with a probe attatched to the side of your cylinder)
or
is it a cylider stat (small fitting with temperatures on it ranging from 10 to 80 degrees, with a cable coming out of the bottom of it.)

aurimas

sullzz wrote: »

is it a thermostatic cylinder valve ( brass fitting with a thermostatic rad valve looking head on it . with a probe attatched to the side of your cylinder)
or
is it a cylider stat (small fitting with temperatures on it ranging from 10 to 80 degrees, with a cable coming out of the bottom of it.)

Cant find the picture atthe moment, but I'll try to describe it: its narrow as a huge pen and is connected with wire to thermostatic valve (same like you would use for your rads)

sullzz

ok thats a thermostatic cylinder valve these dont usualy give trouble , when you have heating on and the two stats turned down check that the pipe going into this valve is hot and that it is also out of the valve is hot (make sure that when doing this the thermostatic head is opened fully)

aurimas

sullzz wrote: »

ok thats a thermostatic cylinder valve these dont usualy give trouble , when you have heating on and the two stats turned down check that the pipe going into this valve is hot and that it is also out of the valve is hot (make sure that when doing this the thermostatic head is opened fully)

I did it yesterday, pipe before valve and after was hot, not hot like pipes to the rads 2 meters away on the same line...also return pipe from HWC heating coil was warm..but even after an hour the was no hot water...it wasnt icy like from cold tap but I cant call it warm either:(

sullzz

did you test it with the room stats turned down to direct the circulation through the coil

aurimas

sullzz wrote: »

did you test it with the room stats turned down to direct the circulation through the coil

no, room stats were on minimum temperature

GreeBo

Is there a motorised value around the boiler somewhere that is stuck only slightly open?
Mine was knackered at one stage and showed the same symptoms, rads were boiling but no hot water, opened the valve manually and bobs your uncle.

aurimas

GreeBo wrote: »

Is there a motorised value around the boiler somewhere that is stuck only slightly open?
Mine was knackered at one stage and showed the same symptoms, rads were boiling but no hot water, opened the valve manually and bobs your uncle.

unfortunately there is no motorised valve, only thermostatic wired (to cylinder stat) valve

JohnnieK

Lets get back to the gas consumtion. 1hr a day for €300 is unbelivable. And the fact that the system is not working properly would not lead to this consumbtion. Remember Board Gais do estimated bills and are always higher this time of year. You should take a meter reading and phone it in and I bet the cost will be a hell of a lot less on your next bill.

They estimate the bill with heating on 8hrs a day for a family of 2adults and 4 children and cooking with gas (I think).

JohnnieK

#has the system always been like this or just recently?

aurimas

tenants moved in since october. and bill for nov and dec was as I described...going to check in nearest time consumption of the boiler and is there no leaks

aurimas

JohnnieK wrote: »

Lets get back to the gas consumtion. 1hr a day for €300 is unbelivable. And the fact that the system is not working properly would not lead to this consumbtion. Remember Board Gais do estimated bills and are always higher this time of year. You should take a meter reading and phone it in and I bet the cost will be a hell of a lot less on your next bill.

They estimate the bill with heating on 8hrs a day for a family of 2adults and 4 children and cooking with gas (I think).

I will double check with guys, but there was readings from meter:(

aurimas

to much work to upload it again sorry for cutting corners please check the link
http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk/forum1/no-hot-water-also-huge-gas-bill-t27558.html

JohnnieK

Hi Aurimas

Who ever installed the pipework in this installation should be shot. For a start the mains top up for the system is totally against regulation. There should be a filling loop installed that can be disconnected.

Anyway, the MV's should be on the flows, and also there is a golden rule for us plumbers when we are trained and thats the 3 Tee rule. 1. The first tee is the expansion (witch is accommodated in the boiler) 2. The tee for the HWC and 3. The heating. The system is short circuiting when the rads are on.

The pipework at the boiler needs to be reworked to the 3 tee rule mentioned above. It is installations like this that give my trade a bad name and it angers me. Also and AAV must be installed at the highest point of the return from the cylinder not at the cylinder.

What part of the country are you in?

aurimas

JohnnieK wrote: »

Hi Aurimas

Who ever installed the pipework in this installation should be shot. For a start the mains top up for the system is totally against regulation. There should be a filling loop installed that can be disconnected.

Anyway, the MV's should be on the flows, and also there is a golden rule for us plumbers when we are trained and thats the 3 Tee rule. 1. The first tee is the expansion (witch is accommodated in the boiler) 2. The tee for the HWC and 3. The heating. The system is short circuiting when the rads are on.

The pipework at the boiler needs to be reworked to the 3 tee rule mentioned above. It is installations like this that give my trade a bad name and it angers me. Also and AAV must be installed at the highest point of the return from the cylinder not at the cylinder.

What part of the country are you in?

Leinster, House located in Castledermot....I am familiar with plumbing...but not confident with heating systems...hesitating should I fix it myself or just prepare and handle a report for the lanlord. Where I can see that rule and similar stuff on internet? Would like to include in my report.Thanks

JohnnieK

Your a bit too far away for me I'm affraid. I would chase the landlord after all you are paying him for the house and it's heating system is not working correctly. Don't fix it yourself because you wont get any thanks for it.

You could try Heating Installations on Google. It was all text books and lectures with me in collage.

yoshytoshy

Aurimas ,your entitled to get the boiler serviced.

It takes about 10 minutes to tell how much the boiler costs to run M3/hour.

The cylinder thermostat you have are known to have some issues. A rgi installer would know what to do with it.

I find it really strange that a four bedroom house would be warm ,with just an hour of heat ,in the past few months of very cold weather:(

aurimas

JohnnieK wrote: »

Your a bit too far away for me I'm affraid. I would chase the landlord after all you are paying him for the house and it's heating system is not working correctly. Don't fix it yourself because you wont get any thanks for it.

You could try Heating Installations on Google. It was all text books and lectures with me in collage.

It is slightly different story, lanlord is friend of mine who asked me to find out why tenants were complaining about

aurimas

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Aurimas ,your entitled to get the boiler serviced.

It takes about 10 minutes to tell how much the boiler costs to run M3/hour.

The cylinder thermostat you have are known to have some issues. A rgi installer would know what to do with it.

I find it really strange that a four bedroom house would be warm ,with just an hour of heat ,in the past few months of very cold weather:(

House was never warm, or heat would not stay long...I think I need to find out boiler consumption somehow those gas bills looks unreal

yoshytoshy

If possible ,get the boiler log book filled out.

It will give you all the information you need about the consumption and combustion of the boiler.