Croke Park and its "open door" policy.

Rosita

super_furry wrote: »

So they should have demolished a stadium that was 50% complete in order to build a playground just because a full sized GAA pitch couldn't be accomodated?

What about swimming pools? They're publicly owned sporting facilities that aren't fit for senior GAA also. Should they all be demolished for 'playgrounds'?

Really sad to see that the 'if we can't have it, no-one can' thinking still exists in some quarters.

Should they have demolished it? Well, it was started by a private company who didn't have the wherewithal to finish it, so they could have left it there indfinitely I suupose until NAMA came along.

Alternatively, they could have taken the most efficient route and demolished it. As it happened, they took the least efficient decision by chasing money already spent (sunk costs - classic economic mistake) and have ended up with a publicly funded stadium of extremely limited use to the broader public. The biggest economic fallacy/mistake was being swayed by the fact that the stadium was 50 per cent complete, thereby ignoring its ultimate unsuitably as a mutlti-sport facility and ensuring that it is a desperately inefficient public enterprise.

As for your swimming pool analagy - are you being deliberately obtuse? Pitches suitable for all three of soccer/rugby/GAA are easily enough provided, and public funding should always look for the most efficient option which clearly was not looked for in the Tallaght case. Swimming pools are by their nature not capable of hosting soccer/rugby/GAA matches. You should visit one sometime - obviously you'd be amazed.

flahavaj

real_red wrote: »

eh there would be more skill on display than has ever been seen on "your hollowed turf"

Yeah, because Jamie Carragher trundling towards a cross and turning it into his own net, Stevie Gerrard doing the starfish, or Celtic's bunch of also rans are the epitome of "skill." Don't make me laugh.:pac:

Nor is the turf "hollow," that'd be just stupid.:rolleyes:

real_red

Alternatively, they could have taken the most efficient route and demolished it. As it happened, they took the least efficient decision by chasing money already spent (sunk costs - classic economic mistake) and have ended up with a publicly funded stadium of extremely limited use to the broader public. The biggest economic fallacy/mistake was being swayed by the fact that the stadium was 50 per cent complete, thereby ignoring its ultimate unsuitably as a mutlti-sport facility and ensuring that it is a desperately inefficient public enterprise.

So just because a full size GAA pitch couldn't be implemented into plans the whole project should be scrapped? did it ever occur to you that the stadium may have been built for community enjoyment? and that it was decided a stadium that would bring Irelands most successful football team "home" would bring enjoyment to the local community? and by the attendances last season the facility has worked well

add into this the rugby game, the under21 internationals that have taken place..the coverage the real madrid match brought to tallaght and you still think a plyground should have been built?

Im not even a rovers fan and I live on the northside but i can see the benefit to the community...

As for your swimming pool analagy - are you being deliberately obtuse? Pitches suitable for all three of soccer/rugby/GAA are easily enough provided, and public funding should always look for the most efficient option which clearly was not looked for in the Tallaght case. Swimming pools are by their nature not capable of hosting soccer/rugby/GAA matches. You should visit one sometime - obviously you'd be amazed.

what if Dublin GAA decided to renovate parnel park and half way through ran out of funds (hypotectically)..Dublin City Council agreed to help to finish the project...a local athlethics club decide Council funds are going in so they want a running track put in which means knocking and starting from scratch but instead of the stadium being a 10,000 seater the building of the running track means it can only be 3,000...you know quite well half the country would be up in arms if it was decided to restart the project

real_red

flahavaj wrote: »

Nor is the turf "hollow," that'd be just stupid.:rolleyes:

very funny - hope your mother's proud!

Spiritoftheseventies

The bigger question is that will Croke Park revert to being a GAA once ground once Aviva stadium is opened. Will the grassroots return to the closed door policy now that they have been seen to do their charitable act.
Most Celtic and Pool Supporters would probably support their county teams too so think it would a be a good idea to open their doors and would be great Pr for the association.

flahavaj

real_red wrote: »

very funny - hope your mother's proud!

So's yours.;)

Spiritoftheseventies

Anyway to return to topic in hand there will have to be change in rules at congress I would think for the game to go ahead. Croke Park if im right is only opened in exceptional circumstances. And they dont have a working relationship with Liverpool or Celtic whereas they had been in talks with IRFU and FAI.

Daysha

real_red wrote: »

very funny - hope your mother's proud!

flahavaj wrote: »

So's yours.;)

Lads cut it out. Real_red, idiotic posts like that help nobody. Either discuss the issue in hand or don't bother posting at all. Flahavaj, if you're a problem with a post just report it.

I know it's a very controversial and debatable issue but so far we've had no major problems in the thread, so let's keep it that way.

Rosita

real_red wrote: »

1) So just because a full size GAA pitch couldn't be implemented into plans the whole project should be scrapped? did it ever occur to you that the stadium may have been built for community enjoyment? and that it was decided a stadium that would bring Irelands most successful football team "home" would bring enjoyment to the local community? and by the attendances last season the facility has worked well

add into this the rugby game, the under21 internationals that have taken place..the coverage the real madrid match brought to tallaght and you still think a plyground should have been built?

Im not even a rovers fan and I live on the northside but i can see the benefit to the community...

2) what if Dublin GAA decided to renovate parnel park and half way through ran out of funds (hypotectically)..Dublin City Council agreed to help to finish the project...a local athlethics club decide Council funds are going in so they want a running track put in which means knocking and starting from scratch but instead of the stadium being a 10,000 seater the building of the running track means it can only be 3,000...you know quite well half the country would be up in arms if it was decided to restart the project

1) You are making my point for me. Yes, I presume the whole idea was to build a stadium for teh benefit of the community. That is precisely why a stadium which excluded the GAA should not have been built by public funds. As a community project it is desperately inefficient, and pointing to the ephemeral attractions of Real Madrid and a few token rugby friendlies is laughable as a retort. Whether you (or I) is a Rovers fan or where you live is irrelevant. This is about appropriate and optimum use of a publicly-pwned facility.

And yes, I repeat, the project should have been scrapped and built somewhere where a facility which maximised the public benefit could be constructed. That would give teh best value for money in the long run. But in fairness if all you can do is point to Rondaldo and co as making the community "happy" you are not exactly thinking long term.

2) Again this is another ludricous analogy that does not hold water. We are not talking about a running track in Tallaght. We are talking about 50 extra feet of pitch. It is bull**** to say it could not be done.

Quazzie

The stadium was half built. There was no logical way to extend the stadium without major redevelopment of surrounding areas. You say that it's not economically viable to continue building that, would it have been more economically viable to buy a new site and start from scratch just to accomodate the GAA? Get a little grip on reality there and see the bigger picture. It's better for the community of Tallaght to have a stadium that can house soccer and Rugby than to have nothing only a half built monument to the failures of the Celtic tiger

Noffles

Lets hope they shut up shop again and never see rugby... rubbish stadium for it with an awful atmosphere even in an INTL...

Orizio

Take your petty GAA/Croke Park bashing elsewhere. I know they have an obssession with us over in the soccer forum, go there.

Orizio

GAA/Rugby/Soccer don't need new stadia or facilities - they have enough money and opportuinites. Lesser, poorly funded but growing sports like cycling, cricket, athletics etc should get far more funding and support at the expense of the 'big three' - in general, facilities built should be all-purpose and support as many sports as possible - a soccer stadium in Tallaght doesn't fall under this remit.

Now please, back on topic.

Quazzie

Orizio wrote: »

in general, facilities built should be all-purpose and support as many sports as possible - a soccer stadium in Tallaght doesn't fall under this remit.

Thats the point though. It wasn't built to be a general facility. It was designed and started privately as a soccer stadium. It was then abandoned never to be finished, until SDCC took over and resurrected it to be something the local community can be proud of. Just because it can't field a Senior GAA match doesn't mean it's worthless.

Orizio wrote: »

Now please, back on topic.

Agreed
It would be a mistake on behalf of the GAA central council to ignore the financial benefits a tournament like the one proposed could provide.

Rosita

Quazzie wrote: »

The stadium was half built. There was no logical way to extend the stadium without major redevelopment of surrounding areas. You say that it's not economically viable to continue building that, would it have been more economically viable to buy a new site and start from scratch just to accomodate the GAA? Get a little grip on reality there and see the bigger picture. It's better for the community of Tallaght to have a stadium that can house soccer and Rugby than to have nothing only a half built monument to the failures of the Celtic tiger

You just don't get the economics of it. The stadium being half-built has nothing to do with it. A private enterprise like Shamrock Rovers having spent money on it has nothing to do with it.

If I buy a site and a half-built house that some other guy has designed why should I be married to his design when my needs are different?

The money spent half building the stadium is gone and cannot be recovered. The notion that the council should have its plans governed by somehow trying to make Shamrock Rovers' investment somehow look like good value is risible.

The council's job is to provide the best and most adaptable public amenity they can. In this case they singularly failed to do so.

By the way I never said it was not economically viable to continue building. What I said was that it is always bad economic planning to go chasing already spent money to make it seem good value. That appears to be what was done here.

The council might have had to pay more to start from scratch at a suitable venue but at least they could have provided a facility that could be used by all as a public owned facility always should, notwithstanding absurd talk of swimming pools and the like.

As it happens South Dublin County Council built from public funds a stadium for a private company. I don't believe that is the proper use of public funds but obviously you disagree. I have no difficulty giving assistance such as grants to private companies in the business of providing jobs/facilities that benefit the public, but I draw the line at building a stadium for a soccer club.

Ultimately the question boils down to how one believes public amenities should be used. Is it (a) for the greater good of as broad a cohort as possible or (b) to cover the mistakes and miscalculations of badly run businesses and by the same token stick one up the GAA. I would suggest any rational person without an agenda would support the first option. But some of the comments here today such as one comparing the GAA to the mafia betray a very obvious agenda among some.

Kenteach

I applauded the delegates for opening Croke Park during the redevelopment of Lansdowne. Yes, some fixtures have been an amazing success. However, Lansdowne is due to reopen soon. That is the national stadium for soccer and rugby and they should play all fixtures there. Croke Park should investigate, however, what sort of revenue opportunities exist for other sports. They don't need to prostitute themselves to all comers, but in a stadium that costs money every time its used (which doesn't always match income on the day) then they should be open to certain events.

With regard to Tallaght, in an ideal world it would be an all purpose stadium. Its not an ideal world but SDCC still have a damn fine stadium which is of benefit to the local community.

Powerhouse

Kenteach wrote: »

1) Croke Park should investigate, however, what sort of revenue opportunities exist for other sports. They don't need to prostitute themselves to all comers, but in a stadium that costs money every time its used (which doesn't always match income on the day) then they should be open to certain events.

2) With regard to Tallaght, in an ideal world it would be an all purpose stadium. Its not an ideal world but SDCC still have a damn fine stadium which is of benefit to the local community.

1) If you think "Croke Park should investigate revenue opportunities" then why not "prostitute themselves to all comers"? If revenue is the thing why is one sport's money any different to another?

2) The damn fine stadium is, as has been constantly pointed out, is now in the hands of a private soccer club. It is actually of little benefit to the local community as it was developed as a bailout of a soccer club rather than a community facility.

Spiritoftheseventies

In terms of proposes Gaelic pitch in Shamrock Rovers they would have had plenty of room to encorporate GAA pitch on it. Pitch dimensions wouldnt be that much greater.

rn

Forgetting about Tallagh stadium... I 100% agree with the posters that it was wrong and the reasons behind it are incredibly dubious. The GAA wasn't treated fairly by the council and certainly wasn't treated fairly by the media in the debacle. But we can't fix that now. Irish sports are a minority sport in that area and such is life.

Getting back to Croker I still do support the opening of Croker on financial grounds. I really do think we need to keep it closed to GAA before July - using it for All-Ireland Finals only. Leinster Football needs to get back to its derbys.

I would also be in favour of the Croke Park administrators centrally distributing funds to the GAA clubs. County boards are too "country" based to care about or put money into tackling the Urban problem facing the GAA. County boards have also been excellently skilled at funnelling money into specific county training facilities - I personally feel such folly is a bit of a white elephant because financially it comes back on clubs to run these facilitites on a professional basis, whey then still need to run their own grounds. Often they are located in the middle of nowhere as well.

munchkin_utd

Back on topic.
The infamous "fat cats" have been revealed.

Unfortunately for GAA bashers, all the cash is going into facilities development and not into anybodys pockets.

Since the first oval ball was kicked in anger in February 2007, some 26 internationals have been played at the GAA headquarters, 13 in each code.

With two more Six Nations matches scheduled over the next four weeks, it will bring the total number of international games played during the four-year period since the then Rule 42 was relaxed to 28, yielding just over €35m for the GAA.

The announcement of the project list and the finance yesterday by the GAA's Director of Finance, Tom Ryan, and chairman of the infrastructure and development committee, Seamus McCloy, was sound justification for the opening up of the stadium.

At the time the GAA had promised to ring-fence the money for projects over and above what was being funded anyway.

So far €8m has been distributed to clubs and counties for special infrastructural projects.

Each county will be given €250,000 to devote to projects at their own discretion within their county, the rest of the money will be distributed by the infrastructure and finance committees to the projects they feel are worthwhile.

When the current list of projects is completed, it is estimated by Ryan that up to €100m, the balance being raised by the units (counties and clubs) themselves, will have been spent.

Up to 98 capital projects have been identified, with €26m being allocated for the more significant ones.

"We'll get one chance at it, once chance to get it right. Hopefully, within the next 18 months we will see the benefits of this rolled out," said McCloy.

GAA president Christy Cooney outlined that this money was separate from the association's other investment in capital programmes.

More at:
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/gaa-reveal-legacy-of--836435m-croke-park-windfall-2070427.html

rn

The only thing I'd bash the GAA HQ on is that originally the money was supposed to go exclusively to club and grass roots infrasture projects. However along the way the majority of it got caught up in county board training facilities. No county amung themselves can agree to give 250K to one club... so the county board facility is the usual white elephant compromise that county boards implement. I think the most any club got directly was (a paltry by comparison) 25K.

Resulting in that clubs at local level are still foraging to pay for their own facilities while also funding the balance and maintaining these co board facilities that are for use only by our elite athletes, usually built in the middle of nowhere (at least the three I know of in connacht are miles from any urban centre).

Now that lotto funding is gone the clubs will and are struggling to meet their own capital project demands. He was right when we said they got one chance... and they definitely blew it in my opinion.

super_furry

http://www.tallaghtstadium.ie/album/gaa-skills-day

Thought this might be of interest to some people here.

popebenny16

the main revenue earner for the GAA is croke park - it can raise millions when full and it is the obligation of the GAA to keep it open to raise as much money as possible.

leave it as an option, if the Rugby and Soccer and anyone else want to use it then that is fine. As well as capital grants to clubs and county boards the stadium itself will soon need work done on it.

as an aside, i have to laugh when John Delaney slithers out of his cesspit and talks about the Arriva Stadium as though the FAI were the main driivng force and primary contractors and owners of the stadium. This was never more obvious than in the way it rejected the debate on CP staying open. Now, if I was a cynic, I would say this was connected to the way I was treated by the FAI ticket sellers when they tried to get me to buy the Italy-Montenegro tickets "when we move to the arriva there wont be as many tickets you know"..... god, you have to love them.

Spiritoftheseventies

Time to revisit this thread given the recent events down in Nemo Rangers. Again GAA seems to be sending out very mixed signals here.

WHILE Nemo Rangers await the outcome of an official GAA investigation into how the Irish rugby team came to train at their state-of-the-art facilities in the Trabeg Sports Centre, Dinny Allen has hit out at the Association for over-reacting.

Under GAA rules, clubs are barred from allowing rugby or soccer teams to use their facilities and, bizarre as it seems, the famous Cork outfit could pick up an automatic suspension.

"I can't speak for the club as I'm not an officer but I have spent my sporting life with Nemo and I haven't heard of anything as silly as this," said the four-time All-Ireland club winner and former Cork dual star.

"I know that many members feel the same way. The GAA must be worried that clubs all over the land will start leaving rugby and soccer teams into their grounds to train. Are they worried that we in Nemo will dilute the Association?

"They have to trust us," Allen added. "Let them come down here some Saturday morning and they'll see the work we're putting into youngsters in hurling and football. We're promoting our own games in the correct manner. We were good to our rugby neighbours, but Gaelic games are our priority and we have always showed that.

"We don't need a rap on the knuckles from above to know where our priorities lie and we're very conscious of promoting our games. It's just ridiculous that there's an investigation ongoing."

And the Cork legend warned that if any action was taken against the club, it would cause a wave of negative publicity. "I was talking to a few of my friends from the club and we're not in least worried about what could happen. If anything does materialise from this the club will come out with all guns blazing.

"I really feel we're getting tied up in knots with rules. We're going by stuff that was compiled 40 years ago. What will it come to? We have 21st birthday parties in the clubhouse at weekends -- will we be asked not to play foreign music?"

Allen's former team-mate Colin Corkery also warned the GAA that they would open a can of worms if they took action against his club.

"It is a total and utter two-faced situation where they are making millions themselves out of bringing rugby into Croke Park and everybody else then has to go by the rule book," Corkery said.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/allen-lashes-gaa-for-rapping-nemo-knuckles-2124763.html

rn

The nemo facility is more than your usual GAA ground...

http://www.trabegsportscentre.ie/index.html

In fact going by their website, you'd be hard pressed to realise its supposed to be a GAA facility at all - certainly its advertised to appeal to all who are willing to pay for its use. Definitely not promoting the aims of the association one could say.

The question has to asked is Nemos first priority the GAA or its own business? Can they afford to have that facility empty? And the second question is how do you punish them for breaking clear rules of the association they are subscribed to without making a fool of the association...

The other reality is that as more and more GAA clubs position themselves for community grant funding, they are going to have to incorporate other sports in to the plans... for example Bearna in Galway "vision" for future has 2 soccer astro pitches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jofhDDZNtw