Best and worst Taoisigh

freewheeler

Unfortunately haven't had much experience of what could be called the 'best' but no contest for the three worst...Haughey...Ahern...Cowen probably in that order...a poor reflection on us as a society that the likes of them could attain such a position IMO...:(

Zebra3

Lord ButterSlip wrote: »

You are.

Please refrain from posting lies about me.

I am entitled to my opinion and not embarrassed about it. You don't know me and have no right to attack me like that.

Lord ButterSlip

Zebra3 wrote: »

Please refrain from posting lies about me.

I am entitled to my opinion and not embarrassed about it. You don't know me and have no right to attack me like that.

Yes you are. So no "lies", you will have to think up of something else to be paranoid about.

As for your opinion Im not contesting your right to have one, I am informing you that the one you are voicing makes you look stupid. And I am quite glad that I do not know you as this verbal "attack", as you put it, would be nothing in comparison to what I would say to you if you said the above things out on the street for example. In conclusion saying something stupid and then putting :rolleyes: after it does not make you look intelligent.

dermo88

In terms of administration.

Best Taoiseach, I'd go with Sean Lemass. DeValera second, but I give that grudgingly, I'm hardly a fan of DeValera.

There was a joke made by Niall Toibin which summed up three Taoisaigh we have had.

"Garrett cannot lie, Charlie cannot tell the truth and Bertie does not know the difference.

Worst, possibly John A Costello, a Bishops ringkisser if ever there was one.

Garrett Fitzgerald would rank as a good Taoiseach were it not for the economic mess he inherited, and also the maladministration was caused by being in bed with the Labour party, who could not make the difficult decisions required to restore economic stability.

Its too early to assess Brian Cowen, although hes not doing too well, and as for Haughey, he could have been the best had it not been for the venal corruption and greed that took place under his tenure.

trapsagenius

Lord ButterSlip wrote: »

You are.

Good post!Not addressing anyone in particular, but let's just say there was someone on this thread who was trying to appear intelligent about something they clearly know nothing about...I would recommend not responding to such a person.Of course this is purely hypothetical...;)

dermo88 wrote: »

In terms of administration.

Best Taoiseach, I'd go with Sean Lemass. DeValera second, but I give that grudgingly, I'm hardly a fan of DeValera.

There was a joke made by Niall Toibin which summed up three Taoisaigh we have had.

"Garrett cannot lie, Charlie cannot tell the truth and Bertie does not know the difference.

Worst, possibly John A Costello, a Bishops ringkisser if ever there was one.

Garrett Fitzgerald would rank as a good Taoiseach were it not for the economic mess he inherited, and also the maladministration was caused by being in bed with the Labour party, who could not make the difficult decisions required to restore economic stability.

Its too early to assess Brian Cowen, although hes not doing too well, and as for Haughey, he could have been the best had it not been for the venal corruption and greed that took place under his tenure.

Bit harsh on Costello-while I'm a fan of Dev, I think he had gone a small bit stale by 1948 and it was time for a change. Costello took over and made a fairly good hack of it-declaring the republic(ok, I'll admit this didn't really change anything and some would argue it copper-fastened partition but it was still the final step from the free state in the south) and he showed some initiative in things such as the IDA and his government did well in combating TB.I will admit his second administration was a joke.But I wouldn't say he was the worst.That mantle, as I have already stated, falls on Fitzgerald for his half-arsed attempts in dealing with the economic crisis and his misguided attitude to NI.

BTW, to all the people criticising Cowen-he can only be judged on how good or bad he was as Taoiseach when he is finished-not yet...

Lord ButterSlip

trapsagenius wrote: »

Good post!Not addressing anyone in particular, but let's just say there was someone on this thread who was trying to appear intelligent about something they clearly know nothing about...I would recommend not responding to such a person.Of course this is purely hypothetical...;)

Recommendation Noted! However I think as I dont know enough to comment on the over all topic I am content and quite happy to read only on this one (except for those hypothetical cases!).

walrusgumble

What would people think about Albert Reynolds as Taoiseach?

Was he a gombeen cut from the same suit as Haughey? Do people hate him for the way he was behind Haughey's shift? What do people make of the Night of the Long Knives when he sacked most of his 1st cabinet? His dealings with Labour?

Shouldn't he get kudos for the business like fashion in dealing with NI, for been willing to stand up to John Major when needed, truely helping the peace process by Publicly speaking to all members of the community in the North (remember Dermot Morgan's skint about about willing to talk to anyone - Unionist, Labour, Provisonal Licence holders etc)

Whilst one could not put him up as one of the top three Taoisigh, simply even for the small length of time he was around, how do people of Ireland regard him?

trapsagenius

walrusgumble wrote: »

What would people think about Albert Reynolds as Taoiseach?

Was he a gombeen cut from the same suit as Haughey? Do people hate him for the way he was behind Haughey's shift? What do people make of the Night of the Long Knives when he sacked most of his 1st cabinet? His dealings with Labour?

Shouldn't he get kudos for the business like fashion in dealing with NI, for been willing to stand up to John Major when needed, truely helping the peace process by Publicly speaking to all members of the community in the North (remember Dermot Morgan's skint about about willing to talk to anyone - Unionist, Labour, Provisonal Licence holders etc)

Whilst one could not put him up as one of the top three Taoisigh, simply even for the small length of time he was around, how do people of Ireland regard him?

I personally think Reynolds was probably the best Taoiseach in the last 25 years or so.

He can't possibly have known what kind of man Haughey was when he helped put him in-and lets not forget he himself tried to shaft Haughey in 1991.As for the sacking of the cabinet-while it was very unfair on certain ministers, it would have damaged FF more than it would have damaged the country.And given he was only in power for 2 and a half years even the damage to FF was fairly minimal.

Reynolds was brilliant with regards the peace process-he realised (like Haughey), that you have to deal with hardliners instead of trying to sideline them.He also inverted the conventional wisdom about the peace process in NI-before he came to power, people had thought you needed an agreement before peace.Reynolds realised that NI needed peace before an agreement-this prevented an event like Enniskillen occurring which could destroy the whole process.On the economic front, he also did no harm and was probably right to capitalise on the opportunity of going into government with Labour-he knew he couldn't work properly with the PDs.

But his contribution to the peace process will be his legacy.

dermo88

trapsagenius - I personally think Reynolds was probably the best Taoiseach in the last 25 years or so.

Albert Reynolds is often overlooked as a Taoiseach. In fairness to him, as politicians go, he was focused, businesslike and professional in the various Departments he managed as a minister. He saw problems with the country and cought to rectify them. Thanks to his business ties in the showband business and later food and meat, he was able to forge links across the political divide in Northern Ireland. While Ahern and Blair may take the credit for the peace process in Northern Ireland, it is often forgotten that the foundations were laid down by John Major and Albert Reynolds in the years beforehand.

In terms of personal integrity, hes probably the best Taoiseach around since Garrett Fitzgerald, and his administration was fairly competent, had it not been for the mess witn Harry Whelehan and the X case.

Its quite sad apparently that these days his memory is failing. He was'nt the worst of them, thats for sure.

walrusgumble

dermo88 wrote: »

trapsagenius - I personally think Reynolds was probably the best Taoiseach in the last 25 years or so.

Albert Reynolds is often overlooked as a Taoiseach. In fairness to him, as politicians go, he was focused, businesslike and professional in the various Departments he managed as a minister. He saw problems with the country and cought to rectify them. Thanks to his business ties in the showband business and later food and meat, he was able to forge links across the political divide in Northern Ireland. While Ahern and Blair may take the credit for the peace process in Northern Ireland, it is often forgotten that the foundations were laid down by John Major and Albert Reynolds in the years beforehand.

In terms of personal integrity, hes probably the best Taoiseach around since Garrett Fitzgerald, and his administration was fairly competent, had it not been for the mess witn Harry Whelehan and the X case.

Its quite sad apparently that these days his memory is failing. He was'nt the worst of them, thats for sure.

The annoying thing about the Whelean and fr Brendan Smith and x affair was a such (although important matters) small affairs brought him down considering the great risks with matters lie NI, eg personally meeting (in secret) members of both loyalist and republican communities. he seemed decent enough.

I read his book, don't know what to make of it considering his clear memories in the book v recent health and inability to act as witnesss in the tribunals, would like to see an indepdent book. According to people like Mammy O'Rourke, he came across badly during the cabinet resuffle.

Strange how Roscommon/Westemeath/Longford/Offaly have, in the past done well out of Ministerial representation (eg O'Rourke, Lenihan,Doherty, Reynolds, Parlon, Cowen, Cooney, [athlone itself could nearly claim brian junior as one of their own as he lived there for many years as a kid - same with dr noel browne])

did people in dublin dislike the whole country n western brigade stuff? i remeber other posts about al and the slaggings he got simply because he was a show band manager/promoter (a very successful one - not bad for a midlander with no uni experience) or his cat food business as oppose to the polished UCD member/barrister/economics/Dub like say Garreth or CJH?

Judgement Day

In my opinion Albert Reynolds was just as bad as Haughey/Bertie/Cowen etc. I seem to remember him being involved in the outrageous (but above board) sale of passports for investment in Irish business - one of which happened to be his own dog food company in Edgeworthstown.

Here it is. Don't you just love Google.

BreakingNews.ie > Ireland

Reynolds vows to try to save pet food factory jobs after blaze
Print Email+ Share+ 16/01/2006 - 18:53:26
Former Taoiseach Albert Reynolds tonight said his family would do everything they could to secure the 500 jobs at risk following a fire at a pet food factory in Longford.

But Mr Reynold’s son Philip, who now manages and owns C&D Pet Foods plant, said he could not promise the plant would be rebuilt without properly assessing the damage first.

The former Taoiseach said the blaze was a disaster for the area and the damage to the factory was far worse than originally believed.

Mr Reynold’s said there was no spare capacity for the factory’s work to be carried out by operations in the UK.

“We just don’t know. We have to try everything, and try everything we will and Philip I tell you is not interested in sleep. He is interested in doing whatever he can because there is such a loyal staff in the place,” Mr Reynolds said, adding the cannery section of the plant was totally destroyed in the fire on Sunday night.

The C&D Pet Foods plant was established by the former Taoiseach in Edgeworthstown more than 30 years ago and employs around 500 people.

Cathal Kelly, who has been working at the plant for 20 years, said this would affect the entire area as the factory is a major employer.

“The Reynolds family have been 35 years in the business, they won’t let something like that stop them,” he said. “It is just the time it will take.”

Mr Kelly said the company had major contracts with UK supermarket chains including Tesco, Asda and Sainsbury and jobs would go if the contracts were lost in the long-term.

Mr Kelly, who comes from Edgeworthstown, said: “It is a close-knit community, it will hit hard if it is as bad as reports are now.”

He added: “I’m 20 years in it and I’ve never been out of work. There’s always been overtime. The damage was done in an hour. It is hard to take - people who don’t even work in it were shocked. It will affect people in town who don’t even work in it,” the 36-year-old, who has two children aged two and four, said.

“It is as bad as when the Glanbia plant closed in (nearby) Rooskey, you never think it is going to happen on your own door.”

The 36-year-old said new multi-million euro factory building, which was constructed around five-years-ago was now a shell.

Mr Kelly, who was a supervisor in the chunks and gravy plant, said workers were gathering outside the factory all day in the hope of good news.

He said the plant was family-orientated – with around 350 local people working in it and around 150 non-nationals.

“Many young people who are married are working there, with young kids and mortgages. My brother works there we started together, my sister works there and her husband. There are 11 children between the three families,” he said.

Mr Reynolds said they were relieved no-one was killed in the fire on Sunday night as 33 workers were on duty but were all safely evacuated.

“What happened was bad enough and it is a disaster for the whole area, there is no question about it, when you think of up to 500 families you know, there are still a few there from the time it was opened first,” he told RTE Radio.

Fire officers and gardaí are working to identify how the blaze erupted. They are believed to be examining a cold room storage area in the factory as the possible site of the fire.

Longford County mayor Frank Kilbride said the damage to the factory was about the worst news possible for the town.

“It’s one of the biggest employers in the Midlands, let alone Edgeworthstown. It’s absolutely devastating and there is great concern in the town about this,” he said.

Willie Penrose, the Labour Party’s TD for Westmeath, said the knock-on effect of this for the local area will be extremely serious.

“At this point in time, we have lost the best part of 400-500 jobs. But certainly at the council, we’ll try to give them any assistance that we possibly can,” Mr Kilbride said.

Niall Philips, from SIPTU’s Longford branch, said there were no alternative jobs for workers in the area as it was only three years since the Glanbia bacon factory in Rooskey was also destroyed by fire with the loss of 350 jobs.

The factory hit the headlines in 1992 when it emerged that a Saudi businessman, Khalid al-Masri, had invested 1.1 million Irish pounds in it as part of the passports for investment scheme.

Mr Reynolds denied he had any knowledge of the investment.


Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2006/0116/ireland/reynolds-vows-to-try-to-save-pet-food-factory-jobs-after-blaze-239937.html#ixzz0gITk8ZRW

walrusgumble

Judgement Day wrote: »

In my opinion Albert Reynolds was just as bad as Haughey/Bertie/Cowen etc. I seem to remember him being involved in the outrageous (but above board) sale of passports for investment in Irish business - one of which happened to be his own dog food company in Edgeworthstown.

Here it is. Don't you just love Google.

BreakingNews.ie > Ireland

Reynolds vows to try to save pet food factory jobs after blaze
Print Email+ Share+ 16/01/2006 - 18:53:26
Former Taoiseach Albert Reynolds tonight said his family would do everything they could to secure the 500 jobs at risk following a fire at a pet food factory in Longford.

But Mr Reynold’s son Philip, who now manages and owns C&D Pet Foods plant, said he could not promise the plant would be rebuilt without properly assessing the damage first.

The former Taoiseach said the blaze was a disaster for the area and the damage to the factory was far worse than originally believed.

Mr Reynold’s said there was no spare capacity for the factory’s work to be carried out by operations in the UK.

“We just don’t know. We have to try everything, and try everything we will and Philip I tell you is not interested in sleep. He is interested in doing whatever he can because there is such a loyal staff in the place,” Mr Reynolds said, adding the cannery section of the plant was totally destroyed in the fire on Sunday night.

The C&D Pet Foods plant was established by the former Taoiseach in Edgeworthstown more than 30 years ago and employs around 500 people.

Cathal Kelly, who has been working at the plant for 20 years, said this would affect the entire area as the factory is a major employer.

“The Reynolds family have been 35 years in the business, they won’t let something like that stop them,” he said. “It is just the time it will take.”

Mr Kelly said the company had major contracts with UK supermarket chains including Tesco, Asda and Sainsbury and jobs would go if the contracts were lost in the long-term.

Mr Kelly, who comes from Edgeworthstown, said: “It is a close-knit community, it will hit hard if it is as bad as reports are now.”

He added: “I’m 20 years in it and I’ve never been out of work. There’s always been overtime. The damage was done in an hour. It is hard to take - people who don’t even work in it were shocked. It will affect people in town who don’t even work in it,” the 36-year-old, who has two children aged two and four, said.

“It is as bad as when the Glanbia plant closed in (nearby) Rooskey, you never think it is going to happen on your own door.”

The 36-year-old said new multi-million euro factory building, which was constructed around five-years-ago was now a shell.

Mr Kelly, who was a supervisor in the chunks and gravy plant, said workers were gathering outside the factory all day in the hope of good news.

He said the plant was family-orientated – with around 350 local people working in it and around 150 non-nationals.

“Many young people who are married are working there, with young kids and mortgages. My brother works there we started together, my sister works there and her husband. There are 11 children between the three families,” he said.

Mr Reynolds said they were relieved no-one was killed in the fire on Sunday night as 33 workers were on duty but were all safely evacuated.

“What happened was bad enough and it is a disaster for the whole area, there is no question about it, when you think of up to 500 families you know, there are still a few there from the time it was opened first,” he told RTE Radio.

Fire officers and gardaí are working to identify how the blaze erupted. They are believed to be examining a cold room storage area in the factory as the possible site of the fire.

Longford County mayor Frank Kilbride said the damage to the factory was about the worst news possible for the town.

“It’s one of the biggest employers in the Midlands, let alone Edgeworthstown. It’s absolutely devastating and there is great concern in the town about this,” he said.

Willie Penrose, the Labour Party’s TD for Westmeath, said the knock-on effect of this for the local area will be extremely serious.

“At this point in time, we have lost the best part of 400-500 jobs. But certainly at the council, we’ll try to give them any assistance that we possibly can,” Mr Kilbride said.

Niall Philips, from SIPTU’s Longford branch, said there were no alternative jobs for workers in the area as it was only three years since the Glanbia bacon factory in Rooskey was also destroyed by fire with the loss of 350 jobs.

The factory hit the headlines in 1992 when it emerged that a Saudi businessman, Khalid al-Masri, had invested 1.1 million Irish pounds in it as part of the passports for investment scheme.

Mr Reynolds denied he had any knowledge of the investment.


Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2006/0116/ireland/reynolds-vows-to-try-to-save-pet-food-factory-jobs-after-blaze-239937.html#ixzz0gITk8ZRW

wasn't there an actual govermental scheme called Passports for Investments ran by Enterprise Ireland in order to encourage investors to come to Ireland in the 1980's, which was abolished in 1998? regardless of it being dodgy, it was above board! no different to any other TD. Sadly it brought some black sheep in buy it had potential of encouraging badly needed investment into Ireland and allow receiptants access to Europe. You seem to neglect the body of that artilce refering to how many people that factory employed and how important it was to the Midlands after probably the army as a source of employment.

Phil Hogan of Fine Gael
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fine-gael-td-got-passports-for-foreigners-phil-hogan-admits-helping-in-sale-to-foreign-nationals--but-doesnt-know-who-they-were-1286382.html

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2006/01/30/story612884775.asp

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article576519.ece

looks like al was not the only td involved
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1999/02/19/ihead.htm

Judgement Day

I'm sure that Albert's petfood factory provided loads of employment but that's hardly the point is it? It just shows once again that they all at it with Fianna Fail leading the way. The 'investment' smells nearly as bad as some of the meat plants in Longford/Leitrim/Roscommon - I know, I lived near one.

Judgement Day

Jaysus - even the brother was at it!

http://www.shannonside.ie/news-details.php?nid=4607
Reynolds family unaware property was given as address by fake passport holders[URL="javascript:void(0);"]« Go Back[/URL]Feb 23 2010
James Reynolds, a brother of the former Taoiseach, Albert Reynolds has confirmed that a vacant property owned by him in Dublin was given as an address by one of the five people with fake Irish passports, who are alleged to have been involved in last month's assassination of a Hamas official in Dubai.

Mr Reynolds, who is the father of music promoter John Reynolds has owned the vacant terraced, red-brick house on Elgin Road in Dublin 4, since the 1960's - however it has been vacant for ten years.

The property's address was given to a hotel in Dubai as the home address of a man travelling under the name of Kevin Daveron.

He was one of the five people caught with fake Irish passports which used real Irish passport numbers.

He was named last week by Dubai police as one of up to 18 suspects implicated in the assassination of Hamas official Mahmoud al-Mabhouh.

The Reynolds family says it is absolutely shocked and knew nothing about what had happened.

trapsagenius

Judgement Day wrote: »

Jaysus - even the brother was at it!

http://www.shannonside.ie/news-details.php?nid=4607
Reynolds family unaware property was given as address by fake passport holders« Go BackFeb 23 2010
James Reynolds, a brother of the former Taoiseach, Albert Reynolds has confirmed that a vacant property owned by him in Dublin was given as an address by one of the five people with fake Irish passports, who are alleged to have been involved in last month's assassination of a Hamas official in Dubai.

Mr Reynolds, who is the father of music promoter John Reynolds has owned the vacant terraced, red-brick house on Elgin Road in Dublin 4, since the 1960's - however it has been vacant for ten years.

The property's address was given to a hotel in Dubai as the home address of a man travelling under the name of Kevin Daveron.

He was one of the five people caught with fake Irish passports which used real Irish passport numbers.

He was named last week by Dubai police as one of up to 18 suspects implicated in the assassination of Hamas official Mahmoud al-Mabhouh.

The Reynolds family says it is absolutely shocked and knew nothing about what had happened.

Would you please stop posting this rubbish and instead comment on what you thought of Albert Reynolds as Taoiseach?

Judgement Day

trapsagenius wrote: »

Would you please stop posting this rubbish and instead comment on what you thought of Albert Reynolds as Taoiseach?

No need to take it personally. I thought Albert Reynolds was yet another FF gombeen man - now are you happy? Apart from being one of Haughey's right hand men (until he stabbed him in the back), a close buddy of Pee Flinstone and up to his eyes in shenanigans with beef baron Larry Goodman - have you forgotten the beef tribunals already? Yes a great statesman like Bertie and all of the over FF crooks - Sean Doherty, Ray Burke, Liam Lawlor, John O'Donoghue, Haughey etc....ohhh I'm too bored to continue so you can have your thread back!

trapsagenius

Judgement Day wrote: »

No need to take it personally. I thought Albert Reynolds was yet another FF gombeen man - now are you happy? Apart from being one of Haughey's right hand men (until he stabbed him in the back), a close buddy of Pee Flinstone and up to his eyes in shenanigans with beef baron Larry Goodman - have you forgotten the beef tribunals already? Yes a great statesman like Bertie and all of the over FF crooks - Sean Doherty, Ray Burke, Liam Lawlor, John O'Donoghue, Haughey etc....

Well, I think its a bit harsh calling him a "gombeen man" given the great work he did in NI and the relatively good work on the economy.

ohhh I'm too bored to continue so you can have your thread back!

Thank Christ for that!