Knights of Columbanus + Opus Dei

Darlughda

Okay, I think it is an established fact that secret societies were an inherent fact of the 17th century and onwards within Ireland and Scotland, and I am sure elsewhere, however these societies exist to this day-how much do they influence Irish government and how pervasive are they in our society?

Torakx

I wouldnt be suprised if you had to be in a secret society nowadays to become a political leader in this country.

PirateShampoo

Well in this country it seems to be true.

thecommander

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Well in this country it seems to be true.

It does? How so.

PirateShampoo

thecommander wrote: »

It does? How so.

Well not secret cults so to speak, but with political families who can be traced back from when the republic was born.

Its not about what you know its about who you know.

Truthrevolution

The Opus Dei are a catholic shadow society and are one of the most secretive groups within the Freemasons, it certainly wouldnt surprise me if there was a large Irish contingency within this group.If anyone is interested in doing more research into this then here is a research website about them

http://www.odan.org/index.htm

Time Magazine

Truthrevolution wrote: »

The Opus Dei are a catholic shadow society and are one of the most secretive groups within the Freemasons

Opus Dei are a devoutly Catholic organisation. Catholics are forbidden from becoming Masons.

Truthrevolution

Time Magazine wrote: »

Opus Dei are a devoutly Catholic organisation. Catholics are forbidden from becoming Masons.

Thats what fascinates me about the opus dei, they are accepted by the freemasons dispite their catholic background

Time Magazine

It's not that complicated. Freemasons allow Catholics, membership of the Masons is based only on being monotheistic. However Catholics forbid themselves from being Masons. Opus Dei does not exist within the Freemasons. I have exes who still consider me a friend, even though I don't want to be friends with them - same thing applies to Masons and Catholics .

Opus Dei aren't that secretive either. My sister wasn't a member but was allowed to attend high-up meetings (it was her job, long story) and it wasn't hush hush. Sure there may be high-level stuff that only Dan Brown knows about, but there doesn't seem to be much there aside from do-gooders doing good.

uprising2

Time Magazine wrote: »

Opus Dei are a devoutly Catholic organisation. Catholics are forbidden from becoming Masons.

Ohh man!, do some research.

uprising2

Time Magazine wrote: »

It's not that complicated. Freemasons allow Catholics, membership of the Masons is based only on being monotheistic. However Catholics forbid themselves from being Masons. Opus Dei does not exist within the Freemasons. I have exes who still consider me a friend, even though I don't want to be friends with them - same thing applies to Masons and Catholics .

Opus Dei aren't that secretive either. My sister wasn't a member but was allowed to attend high-up meetings (it was her job, long story) and it wasn't hush hush. Sure there may be high-level stuff that only Dan Brown knows about, but there doesn't seem to be much there aside from do-gooders doing good.

Look into why pope John Paul 1st only lasted 33 days in the job.

Time Magazine

uprising2 wrote: »

Ohh man!, do some research.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_ban_of_Freemasonry

uprising2

Time Magazine wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_ban_of_Freemasonry

The catholic church/vatican are evil basstards, run by the freemasons, open your eye's. Look into what I just said, it's strange but true.

Time Magazine

uprising2 wrote: »

The catholic church/vatican are evil basstards, run by the freemasons, open your eye's. Look into what I just said, it's strange but true.

The Vatican is run by Freemasons. Right. That's why the current Pope has banned Masons from being members of the Church. Right.

uprising2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMmA93anRYc

Why do they have an object of worship to the egyptian sun god ra in the middle of peters square?,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stUT41svfkU

The current pope is the man responsible for writing the instructions for covering up sex abuse.

Truthrevolution

Time Magazine wrote: »

The Vatican is run by Freemasons. Right. That's why the current Pope has banned Masons from being members of the Church. Right.

Come back to us when you have done more research!

Time Magazine

Truthrevolution wrote: »

Come back to us when you have done more research!

Oh my, how often I may trot that out to regulars on this forum

uprising2

Time Magazine wrote: »

Oh my, how often I may trot that out to regulars on this forum

Please look at the video's I posted, then follow it up, double check, honestly, I was shocked, I was raised a catholic, I don't want to derail this thread but all religion is run by secret societies.

EDIT: And all secret societies are run by one "SECRET" society.

nullzero

Opus Dei are a society of strict catholics who take the ideal's of the church to extremes. If you belive that the hierarchy of the Catholic religion are not involved in secret societies then you're pretty naive, although that would be in the context of a person who's dug a little deeper, I don't want to be disrepectful towards anyone just because they take what is widely accepted at face value.

As for the influence of Mansonry etc... in Irish political life, you just have to look at where Irish political life reloves around. Leinster house was once the grand lodge of Freemasonry in ireland. across the road on Molesworth street you'll find the current grand lodge. Ireland is a country where who you know rather that what you know is important, so you have the perfect societal frame work for an "I scratch your back..." type of masonic political system to take root quite easily.
Just look at some of the gob****e's we've had as "leaders" over the years, these people couldn't make their way into power without a leg up from some sort of benevolent "friends" or other.

Now is as good a time as any to stress how not all members of Freemasonry are bad people. The Knights of Columbanus do a lot of charitable works in the community, so vilifying the Joe Soaps in the order is wrong. It's also wise to remember that compartmentalisation is the most important tool of these societies, important information is always on a "need to know" basis, hence the large numbers of nice upstanding people at the bottom levels and the more malevolent leaders at the top.

SEPT 23 1989

I thought the government minister who did the deal with the church for abuse victims was a member of Opus Dei

studiorat

uprising2 wrote: »

Ohh man!, do some research aimless internet surfing.

That's probably a little more accurate. The Catholic right wing conspiracy showed their heads looking for a NO vote both counts in the Lisbon referendum.

Include Caroline Simons (SPUC fame) and her involvment with Coir and Libertas.

http://www.ionainstitute.ie/board_of_directors.php THrow these clowns in for good measure.


And Garreth Kellagher owner of Shelbourne Development, manager of St. Patricks athetlic. He also sits on the Board of Regents of Ave Maria University. http://www.avemaria.edu/ And is a member of Legatus Now there's a cabal of lizards if ever there was one, http://www.legatus.org/public/MemCriteria.asp

uprising2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_oA_OMsmZo

Studiorat I don't know what your trying to say with that post, what does it prove or say? I really can't make fish heads nor tails of it.

Truthrevolution

nullzero wrote: »

Opus Dei are a society of strict catholics who take the ideal's of the church to extremes. If you belive that the hierarchy of the Catholic religion are not involved in secret societies then you're pretty naive, although that would be in the context of a person who's dug a little deeper, I don't want to be disrepectful towards anyone just because they take what is widely accepted at face value.

As for the influence of Mansonry etc... in Irish political life, you just have to look at where Irish political life reloves around. Leinster house was once the grand lodge of Freemasonry in ireland. across the road on Molesworth street you'll find the current grand lodge. Ireland is a country where who you know rather that what you know is important, so you have the perfect societal frame work for an "I scratch your back..." type of masonic political system to take root quite easily.
Just look at some of the gob****e's we've had as "leaders" over the years, these people couldn't make their way into power without a leg up from some sort of benevolent "friends" or other.

Now is as good a time as any to stress how not all members of Freemasonry are bad people. The Knights of Columbanus do a lot of charitable works in the community, so vilifying the Joe Soaps in the order is wrong. It's also wise to remember that compartmentalisation is the most important tool of these societies, important information is always on a "need to know" basis, hence the large numbers of nice upstanding people at the bottom levels and the more malevolent leaders at the top.

Absolutely spot on

constance tench

His Eminence Desmond, Cardinal Connell, KGCHS, GCJCO, Archbishop of Dublin and Primate of Ireland Emeritus,

His Eminence was appointed by HRH The Grand Prefect as Chief Chaplain for Ireland in November 2002 following his investiture as a Bailiff Knight Grand Cross of Justice of the Constantinian Order of Saint George.

His Excellency The Right Honourable Lord Brennan of Bibury, KCMCO, QC,
Lord Brennan was appointed to the Council of the British and Irish Delegation in 2003 and holds the rank of Knight Commander of Merit with Star of the Sacred Military Order of Saint George. Born in 1942, Lord Brennan graduated from Manchester University with a Bachelor of Law where subsequently he was honoured with a Doctorate. In 1968 he married Pilar Sanchez Moya by whom he has four sons.
Lord Brennan’s career began when he was called to the Bar at Gray’s Inn in 1967. Consequently, he was appointed Recorder of the Crown Court (1982) and has been a Queen’s Counsel since 1985 and since 1994 sits regularly as a Deputy High Court Judge. In 1999 Lord Brennan was elected Chairman of the Bar of England and Wales. He is also a member of the bars of the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. In 2000 British lawyers voted Lord Brennan Barrister of the year.


Judge Patrick Clyne, KM, KMCO,

Judge Patrick Clyne was appointed to the Council of the British and Irish Delegation in April 2006 and holds the rank of Knight of Merit with Star of the Sacred Military Order of Saint George.
Judge Patrick Clyne was born on 23 January 1946. He was educated at the Trinity College, Dublin where he began his undergraduate studies in Modern History, English and History of Art and continued with his postgraduate studies in Law.
Following his studies Judge Clyne became a certified solicitor in 1973 in Ireland and in 1992 in England and Wales. From 1974 to 1986 he was appointed a Special Lecturer and examiner in Statutory Land Law to the Incorporated Law Society in Ireland.
Judge Clyne was appointed a member of the Judiciary of Ireland in 2005. He is a Knight of Malta and is a member of the Presidential Council of the Irish Association of the Order and holds the award Grand Officer of Merit Pro Merito Melitensi of the Order of Malta. He is a member of the Senatus Academicus of the University of Dublin. He is a member of Council of the Royal Dublin Society and is a former Chairman of the Standing Committee of General Purposes and a former Chairman of the Library Committee of the Society. He is a member of the Board of the National Library of Ireland and Chairman of the Statutory Committee on Genealogy and Heraldry to advise the Chief Herald of Ireland.

http://www.constantinian.org.uk/main.htm

In 2004, President Mary McAleese of Ireland was awarded the Collar of the Constantinian Order at a ceremony at Àras an Uachtaràin, and Taoiseach (Prime Minister) Bertie Ahern, TD, then President of the European Council, was also honoured.
Other knights include the current Vice-Delegate of the Delegation, Judge Patrick Clyne, the Order's former Vice-Delegate and Chancellor (2003-2006) and current President of the Association of Papal Orders in Ireland, Senator Donal Lydon, HE Mr Michael Joseph McDonnell, Lieutenant of the papal Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre, HE Mr Dáithi O'Ceallaígh, Ambassador of Ireland to the Court of St James's, The Rt Hon Paul Murphy, MP, former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the former Lord Mayor of Dublin Mr Royston Brady, the Ambassador of Poland to Ireland HE Mr Witold Sobkow, the Vice President of the Irish Association of the Order of Malta, Mr Patrick White, and the Association's Chancellor Mr Sean Kevin Cunnane.
The Order's Chief Chaplain for Ireland is the Archbishop Emeritus of Dublin, His Eminence Desmond, Cardinal Connell, who was invested into the Sacred Military Constantinian Order in November 2002. The Most Rev Dr Raymond Field, Auxiliary Bishop of Dublin, is also a chaplain of the Delegation.
Current Irish knights of the Royal Order of Francis I include leading businessman, Sir Michael Smurfit, the Independent Assessor of Military Complaints Procedures and Chairman of The Prince’s Trust in Northern Ireland James McDonald, and the former Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly, Lord Alderdice.

In recent years, the delegation's membership has included Peers of the Realm, bankers, lawyers, Members of Parliament, authors, diplomats, businessmen, ministers, military leaders, and senior clergy. They include members of the Recusant aristocracy, such as HMEH Frà Andrew Bertie, Prince and Grand Master of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, as well as The Dowager Marchioness of Salisbury, acclaimed author the late Dr Peter Bander-van Duren, HE Frà Mathew Festing, Grand Prior of England of the Order of Malta, the late Lord High Chancellor, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, Her Grace The Duchess of Norfolk, the Chief Minister of Gibraltar Peter Caruana, QC, Professor The Lord Alton of Liverpool, Captain Peregrine Bertie, President of the British Association of the Order of Malta (1996-2001), the Lord High Constable of Scotland, the Earl of Erroll, former Chief of the Defence Staff General The Lord Guthrie of Craigiebank, Government Home Office Minister Baroness Scotland of Asthal, QC, and Count and Countess Michel de Liedekerke.
The senior dame of the Delegation in Britain is Her Royal Highness Princess Michael of Kent (left) who was invested into the Sacred Military Constantinian Order in 1996.

http://www.realcasadiborbone.it/ita/delegazioni/uk_ir.htm

studiorat

There is a very real group of Christian Fundamentalist operators working in Ireland. These people despise the whole European project and would have us living back in feudal times given half the chance.

Sitting on the Board of directors of the Iona institute are Sean Ascough, Tom Ascough and Maeve Kelleher.

Tom Ascough’s wife Jacki is a writer for Catholic Right Wing rag ALIVE. While Deirdre Ascough sister to Tom and Sean is married to Damian Erbgraf v Schinbom-Buchheim.

Damian E v S-B! is decended from Charlemange on his father’s side and the French monarchy on his mothers. His mother is Princess Isabelle d’Orléans, a Bourbon decendent once holding the title princess of France. As eldest son, Damien, could in theory become a pretender to the French throne should it still exist.

Their backgrounds place them at the centre of fundamentalist Catholic group with monarchist ambitions in Europe.

All of the above have given their support were at meetings in the Shelbourne Hotel, Dublin with Viscount Phillipe de Villiers of the Vendee, the centre of the counter revolution in France. Villers was the only MEP elected on the Libertas ticket.

De Villier is a far right French fundamentalist Catholic who believes in monarchical rule. He too is a descendent of the House D’Orlean. An Ancestor was Philippe II, Duke of Orléans (born 2 August 1674(1674-08-02) Château de Saint-Cloud, Saint-Cloud, FranceDied 2 December 1723)

Other mambers of the Iona include University professors, priests and lawers.

constance tench

studiorat wrote: »

These people despise the whole European project

:rolleyes:

studiorat

constance tench wrote: »

:rolleyes:

well they do!

any thread from a secular power to their wish for religion to control moral value and off they go spouting their scare tactics about the "abortion on tap", the "unelected elite" and "the european army".

kicom

studiorat wrote: »

well they do!

any thread from a secular power to their wish for religion to control moral value and off they go spouting their scare tactics about the "abortion on tap", the "unelected elite" and "the european army".

Are you trying to tell me that Mary Robinson despises the whole EU project?

studiorat

kicom wrote: »

Are you trying to tell me that Mary Robinson despises the whole EU project?

You'll need to expand on that a little. I didn't know Mary Robinson was part of the Iona or a member of Legatus. Both right wing catholic groups. Hardly goes along with her Labour party background does it.

Darlughda

Ugh-these guys sound like a right nest of vipers all right. :eek:

Don't believe Mary Robinson is caught up with them even if she is officially a member of some group or other with links to them, she has been an enemy of the conservative fundamentalists in this country for her whole career.

uprising2

Please read this copy and paste from today's news:

Pope 'shares outrage' on sex abuse <

---

Click for article

Pope Benedict XVI urged Irish clergy to be courageous in confronting the paedophile priest scandal that has rocked the church, but took no action on victims' demands that he force bishops to resign, the Vatican said.
The Vatican statement came as the Pope and 24 Irish bishops ended an extraordinary meeting on the crisis meant to restore the trust of Irish Catholics shaken by revelations of decades of clergy sex abuse and cover-up.
A Vatican spokesman, the Rev Federico Lombardi, said following the summit that the Pope "shares the outrage" over the abuse and noted he had "already expressed profound regret".
Asked if the issue of resignations came up, Lombardi said "it was not addressed".
Lombardi also defended the Pope's representative in Ireland for refusing to testify to lawmakers there about systematic covers-up by church hierarchy.
A Vatican statement said the Pope called the sexual abuse of children "a heinous crime" and a "grave sin which offends God".
During the two-day summit behind closed doors at the Vatican, anger flared in Ireland over the refusal of papal envoy Archbishop Giuseppe Leanza to appear in the Irish parliament.
Leanza, who participated in the summit, told lawmakers in a letter he would not answer questions from the foreign affairs committee.
"I wish to inform that it is not the practice of the Holy See that apostolic nuncios appear before parliamentary commissions," he wrote.
Leanza has faced heavy criticism in Ireland for ignoring letters from two state-ordered investigations into how the church suppressed reports of child abuse by parish priests and in Catholic-run residences for poor children.


Now watch the 30sec's of this video, from 1:00-1:30 and ask yourself what the fukk is going on here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stUT41svfkU

It stinks from the top of the pyramid(pope) to the local parish paedophile(priest), now don't get me wrong I know a lot of local priests past and pesent, who are and were truly Good men, so I'm not saying they "all" are, but the known paedophiles are still now and were protected and shielded from the very top.

Darlughda

Uprising I know. There are no words to describe how disgusting this is.

It makes me sick how this Ratzinger piece of dirt can get away with this.

Wibbs

Whats freaky is how many specifically Irish priests are/were involved. You see a report on an american case and 9 times outa 10 its an irish priest involved.

nullzero

studiorat wrote: »

well they do!

any thread from a secular power to their wish for religion to control moral value and off they go spouting their scare tactics about the "abortion on tap", the "unelected elite" and "the european army".

The "European Project" isn't some sort of plan for a eutopia for all EU citizens, it's just another from of control. There's always going to be some group of sick bastards trying to control the masses, be they the EU, or right wing Catholic looney's or Sharia law toting Mislim fundamentalists. They're all as bad as each other and are holding back the human race from getting on and evolving into something better. Fvck the lot of them and their plans for New world orders that are just like the existing world orders, they're fast becoming surplus to requirement as far as humanity is concerned. You can only hold the ball under water for so long. It might take a while but people are starting to wise up to all the BS around them.

Darlughda

Wibbs wrote: »

Whats freaky is how many specifically Irish priests are/were involved. You see a report on an american case and 9 times outa 10 its an irish priest involved.

Indeed Wibbs. Not one for us to get puffed up with Irish patriotic pride about for sure. :mad:

I was reading a history of the early Roman empire. and apparantly there was a tradition of paedophilia and child abuse in the early days of Rome. Considering where the Vatican is located I wonder have they just continued on this tradition.

Its the widespread nature of this across the globe, and as Colm O'Gorman discovered you can't sue the vatican! It really is no exaggeration to say the vatican is responsible for the biggest paedophile ring in the world and they are immune from prosecution.

nullzero

Darlughda wrote: »

Indeed Wibbs. Not one for us to get puffed up with Irish patriotic pride about for sure. :mad:

I was reading a history of the early Roman empire. and apparantly there was a tradition of paedophilia and child abuse in the early days of Rome. Considering where the Vatican is located I wonder have they just continued on this tradition.

Its the widespread nature of this across the globe, and as Colm O'Gorman discovered you can't sue the vatican! It really is no exaggeration to say the vatican is responsible for the biggest paedophile ring in the world and they are immune from prosecution.

I've heard theories regarding the abuse of children and how during "the act" the abuser get's a rush of spiritual enegry from the child they are abusing. I know more about this than I can recall right now but child abuse seems to be prevelant in all societies, although the Catholic church seem to be exceptionally fond of it.
I've also read about how Ireland has in inordinately large number of ritual abuse victims, mostly children, although I'd have to dig out the referneces I do find it reasonably easy to believe. I also recall that a lot of this abuse taking place amongst rich families, surprise surprise.
Another "use" for child abuse seems to be as a psychological shock to create "mind control slaves" with different "alters" of personality, kind of like in the film The Mancurian Candidate.

Of all the crimes in the world I can think of few that are worse than sexually abusing a child. It's interesting that so many of the people/groups who routinely get accused of wanting to oppress the huamn race to their own ends seem to be so keen on this type of sick minded madness.

In a world where people can abuse children in such a cold calculated manner nothing should surprise anyone. Be it the 9-11 attacks being an inside job, or Annunaki serpent gods controlling the world elites.
We live in a bizarre fvcked up world and finding any "truth" inside it requires the ability to be open minded in ways that may sometimes seem stupid.
I know it's big leap from one to the other I was just using extreme examples.

Darlughda

It is such an unimaginable crime yet so prevalent and here in Irish Society. For so long with so many people complicit in its cover up.

So all these Knights of Columbanus+Opus Dei characters with their links to the highest echelons of Irish Society for so long, how much did each of these individuals know, and how much were each of them individually responsible for covering up?

nullzero

Darlughda wrote: »

It is such an imaginable crime yet so prevalent and here in Irish Society. For so long with so many people complicit in its cover up.

So all these Knights of Columbanus+Opus Dei characters with their links to the highest echelons of Irish Society for so long, how much did each of these individuals know, and how much were each of them individually responsible for covering up?

Will we ever know the full extent of it?
It's hard to say, although I'm sure the taxpayer will be forced to foot the bill for any inquirery.
It's a sick act, fvcking depraved in every way, and for all we know some poor kid somewhere in this country is being subjected to it at the moment and someone who could make it stop wont for whatever reason.
It doesn't give you much faith in human nature does it?

Brown Bomber

Don't get me wrong all child abusers are the absolute scum of the earth.

Darlughda wrote: »

It really is no exaggeration to say the vatican is responsible for the biggest paedophile ring in the world and they are immune from prosecution.

It really is an exaggeration, in fact it is a ridiculously ignorant comment.

Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html

n 2001, clinical child psychologist Wade F. Horn reported on the work of researchers at Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health. The researchers found that nearly 20 percent of low-income women, recruited through family planning, obstetrical or gynecological clinics, had experienced child sexual abuse.

Horn summarized the researchers’ findings on poor women as follows: “Family friends and acquaintances compose the largest group of perpetrators (28 percent), followed by such relatives as uncles and cousins (18 percent), stepfathers (12 percent), male siblings (10 percent), biological fathers (10 percent), boyfriends of the child’s mother (9 percent), grandfathers and stepgrandfathers (7 percent), and strangers (4 percent).” Horn was struck by the fact that 10 percent were biological fathers and only 4 percent were strangers. “Which means,” he said, “86 percent of the perpetrators were known to the family, but were someone other than the child’s father.”[ii]

http://www.catholicleague.org/research/abuse_in_social_context.htm#_edn21

nullzero

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Don't get me wrong all child abusers are the absolute scum of the earth.



It really is an exaggeration, in fact it is a ridiculously ignorant comment.


http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html

http://www.catholicleague.org/research/abuse_in_social_context.htm#_edn21

To be fair it is a very emotive subject and people can over state things at times.
The fact that most child abusers are family memebrs is a very valid argument, although the comment you quoted has a degree of accuracy as well, inasmuch that the Catholic church has commited a huge amount of crimes against children over the years and as an organisation they are pretty much out on their own in terms of child abuse.

Darlughda

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It really is an exaggeration, in fact it is a ridiculously ignorant comment.

No it is not an exaggeration, Brown Bomber nor it is ignorant. I cannot believe you have quoted a catholic organisation in your 'evidence' that is ignorant.

By the way, it has to be said the role of the new Irish Free state was inherent in all of this. The dept of Education oversaw these horrendous institutes that housed poor and desperate young fellas and girls who became prey for these evil priests and nuns.

nullzero

Darlughda wrote: »

No it is not an exaggeration, Brown Bomber nor it is ignorant. I cannot believe you have quoted a catholic organisation in your 'evidence' that is ignorant.

By the way, it has to be said the role of the new Irish Free state was inherent in all of this. The dept of Education oversaw these horrendous institutes that housed poor and desperate young fellas and girls who became prey for these evil priests and nuns.

You're right. The vision of the likes of De Valera allowed for too much autonomy of the Catholic church.
They had free reign to do as the pleased and we will be dealing with the fall out for generations.
It makes me sick to see all the sad little excuses for human beings retreating back to the "sanctuary" of the church in the recession.
Have some fvcking self respect. Daylight athiests is one old phrase you could use to describe them. We should never forgive those bastards for what they did to our country and we certainly shouldn't be looking to them for spiritual guidance in our hour of need.

studiorat

nullzero wrote: »

You're right. The vision of the likes of De Valera allowed for too much autonomy of the Catholic church.
They had free reign to do as the pleased and we will be dealing with the fall out for generations.

Just to play devils acrobat for a minute. In De Valera's time the church were the only people with the abilities to run the education system for the government of the day.

They educated generations of Irish governments.

summerskin

studiorat wrote: »

Just to play devils acrobat for a minute. In De Valera's time the church were the only people with the abilities to run the education system for the government of the day.

They educated generations of Irish governments.

surely you mean "devil's advocate"?

Darlughda

studiorat wrote: »

Just to play devils acrobat for a minute. In De Valera's time the church were the only people with the abilities to run the education system for the government of the day.

They educated generations of Irish governments.

It is not true that the church were the only people with the abilities to run the education system, the Irish government and the Dept of Education deliberately left that responsibility to the religious orders.

Yes those generations of Irish governments were lucky enough not to be born into poverty, unlike thousands of those who were sentenced to serve in those industrial schools and undergo physical and sexual torture for the crimes of being poor.

Brown Bomber

Darlughda wrote: »

It is not true that the church were the only people with the abilities to run the education system, the Irish government and the Dept of Education deliberately left that responsibility to the religious orders.

Yes those generations of Irish governments were lucky enough not to be born into poverty, unlike thousands of those who were sentenced to serve in those industrial schools and undergo physical and sexual torture for the crimes of being poor.

My mother was as poor as can be she was also abused as a child - by her step-father. She was put into a Catholic orphanage type place and that time is the only time she was safe as a child; the only happy childhood memories she has. So it can be both ways

I think people are wrong to preserve their outrage for the Catholic church exclusively as if molestatation is a policy of the church and sexual abuse is endemic, when it is evil individuals within the group. Organised child trafficking is certainly an equal problem "The disturbing underworld of sex slavery is the fastest growing crime in the world" http://www.nbc-2.com/Global/story.asp?S=11841010

For me its the same as portraying all homosexual men as paedophiles or portraying rape of white women in the US as only committed by black men therfore all black men are rapists.

From the NSPCC in the UK

For the children who experienced sexual abuse outside of the family, the most common perpetrator was a boyfriend or girlfriend.

• 70% of penetrative/oral acts of sexual abuse outside of the family were by a boyfriend/girlfriend
• 17% were perpetrated by 'someone I recently met' 7
• 10% were perpetrated by a fellow student/pupil
• 6% were perpetrated by a friend of their parents
• 6% were perpetrated by a friend of their brother/sister.
  
  Very few children (less than 1%) experienced abuse by professionals in a position of trust, for example a teacher, religious leader or care/social worker.

http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/research/statistics/child_sexual_abuse_statistics_wda48742.html
All figures I can find puts abuse by the Catholic church consistent with levels of other clergy and other groups associated with children like sports coaches, teachers, babysitters etc.


Baptists: http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm
Muslim Clerics: http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=5185
Episcopalian: http://www.reformation.com/CSA/episcopalianabuse.html
Lutheran: http://www.thelutheran.org/article/article.cfm?article_id=8572
Protestants: http://www.reformation.com/CSA/methodistabuse.html
Mormons: http://mormonalliance.org/casereports/volume1/v1.htm
Jews: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99913807

studiorat

summerskin wrote: »

surely you mean "devil's advocate"?

No, please see malapropism...

Darlughda wrote: »

It is not true that the church were the only people with the abilities to run the education system, the Irish government and the Dept of Education deliberately left that responsibility to the religious orders.

Yes those generations of Irish governments were lucky enough not to be born into poverty, unlike thousands of those who were sentenced to serve in those industrial schools and undergo physical and sexual torture for the crimes of being poor.

Maltreatment in social institutions in Ireland has an dreadful history. There's a very interesting article on Stradbally House (electric picnic) that once was a orphanage of some type, not church run as far as I can gather. There was an inspection of it maybe mid 19th C. The reports make it sound like a concentration camp, given the standard of the day I'm sure it would have been horrific. Children starving in the fields etc...

I'd say that the workforce to run the schools country wide just weren't skilled enough at the beginning of the state and by the 1930's the Church had a strangle hold on the education system. They resources just weren't there, they basically needed the church, or at the least it was a simple solution for a difficult problem.

Tom O'Donohoghe says in his book, below...

Frugal, cash-starved Irish governments were content to leave the provision of secondary schools to the Church, which invested in school plant although older facilities faded over time.

“the Church would sanction no changes of a management or curricular nature that possibly threatened the status quo in secondary education. De Valera [prime minister after 1932], accordingly, ordered that education policy should never have the potential to create Church-State conflict, realising that it would be political suicide to do otherwise. A culture emerged where successive Ministers of Education saw themselves only as caretakers” (p. 120).

Thomas A. O’Donoghue. The Catholic Church and the Secondary School Curriculum in Ireland,
1922–1962.

rugbyman

Brown Bomber, your comment about your mother is certainly relevant.
i am sory for her.

re your quoting figure from the Uk, this is not easily comparable to ireland as the Catholic church were not so much in charge there. i have felt for some tilme that that is why far less cases of clerical rape emerged from Northern Ireland. The church did not have control of the government, so less able to pervert.

regards Rugbyman

Yitzhak Rabin

Just came across this article, and I suppose this thread would be the best place for it.

http://www.secularism.org.uk/vatican-gets-huge-donations-from.html

Irish builders and bankers who have reigned over a catastrophic virtual collapse in the country’s economy donated nearly €9m to the Vatican last year. Among those named as donors were property developers whose loans have been taken over by the state-run National Assets Management Agency (NAMA). Property developers Derek Quinlan, Treasury Holdings' Johnny Ronan, Ballymore Properties' Sean Mulryan and Paddy McKillen, one of the so called "Anglo 10" all made significant donations.
The Patrons of the Arts in the Vatican Museums published recently reveals that these troubled property developers provided ‘financial support’ for the restoration of the historic Pauline Chapel in the Vatican Museum.
Fellow donors included former Anglo Irish bank chairman Sean FitzPatrick and the controversial former boss of Irish Nationwide Michael Fingleton. Other donors included Digicel owner Denis O’Brien and William Bollinger, the Irish co-founder of the €3bn Egerton Capital Hedge Fund.
The donors were given special medallions after a private mass in the Pauline chapel, celebrated by Cardinal Lajolo last July. Solid gold ‘Michelangelo'’ medallions were given to donors who had given more than $1m, with silver ‘Raphael’ medallions for donors of $500,000 plus. ‘Bramante’ medals were presented to donors of $250,000 or more. A marble plaque listing the names of all 26 donors, including the Irish builders and bankers, was unveiled in the chapel.
No mention was made about what medals would be awarded to the Irish taxpayers who have had to bail out all the businesses in which these people were involved over the past year.

Doesn't prove that these elite are involved in Opus Dei/Knight of Columbanus etc., but It does at least show that alot of the key figures of economic fraud of the last decade are deeply catholic.

IrelandSpirit

nullzero wrote: »

Fvck the lot of them and their plans for New world orders that are just like the existing world orders, they're fast becoming surplus to requirement as far as humanity is concerned./QUOTE]


Fukc the lot of them