Who's actually worth it ?

Liam Byrne

There's been much bickering on here of late between neutrals who look at track records and judge accordingly and those who support a party at all costs.

The mantra seems to be "the other shower couldn't do any better / worse".

So let's - just for once in Ireland - ditch the party politics and blind followings, and list people who might actually come close to being worth the €110,000 that the average TD gets, which equates to AT LEAST €500 PER DAY!!!!

I've left out the fact that they don't work normal days or weeks, to avoid more bickering about the ridiculous holidays and "constituency work / a.k.a. going to funerals that I personally believe has no worthiness for people meant to run the country.

So it could be viewed as €1,000 PER DAY
Sample source : http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/fionnan-sheahan/politicians-pay-bill-soars-as-tds-clock-up-83641100-a-day-1208452.html

And let's take the senior ministers as approximately €2,000 PER DAY.

Whatever about the odd individual politician who might be half-decent, are any of them worth that based on what they've achieved over the past, say, 10 years ?

I can't think of a single one that's worth even quarter of that.

jmayo

Liam Byrne wrote: »

There's been much bickering on here of late between neutrals who look at track records and judge accordingly and those who support a party at all costs.

The mantra seems to be "the other shower couldn't do any better / worse".

So let's - just for once in Ireland - ditch the party politics and blind followings, and list people who might actually come close to being worth the €110,000 that the average TD gets, which equates to AT LEAST €500 PER DAY!!!!

I've left out the fact that they don't work normal days or weeks, to avoid more bickering about the ridiculous holidays and "constituency work / a.k.a. going to funerals that I personally believe has no worthiness for people meant to run the country.

So it could be viewed as €1,000 PER DAY
Sample source : http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/fionnan-sheahan/politicians-pay-bill-soars-as-tds-clock-up-83641100-a-day-1208452.html

And let's take the senior ministers as approximately €2,000 PER DAY.

Whatever about the odd individual politician who might be half-decent, are any of them worth that based on what they've achieved over the past, say, 10 years ?

I can't think of a single one that's worth even quarter of that.

I don't know how much he is on for his seanad seat but Shane Ross is worth it for the way he goes after or so called banking supremoes and the light he sheds on the dodgy dealings of the top ranks of both our public sector and business community.

I reckon Dr James Reilly and Richard Bruton might just be worth it because they actually appear to know what they are talking about and appear to believe in weird concept of thing called responsibility.

As for the rest I actually don't think so and that goes especially for the current taosieach, cabinet ministers and junior ministers.

paddyland

Shane Ross is the first name that came into my head, too. It says something when the only person I can name straight off, is a public representative whose main claim to fame is his ability to showcase the inabilities and inefficiencies of all the rest!

Biggins

I've spoken to Dr James Reilly on a number of occasions in the Dail and elsewhere.
I definably get the impression that he knows his stuff. On top of that he's a brilliant orator and well versed in the oral cul-de-sac's that the FF and co try to lead him into.

I also get the impression that his talents are going to waste and/or is being held back for the greater good of others. Its a shame.
If there is one in FG that I have any respect for, its him.

Further thought: He knows how to "play the political game", he's forceful and has a strong commanding presence when charged up with a cause that is close to his heart.
He's one of the very few that are "worth the money" and I can picture him no problem tackling for a place for Ireland upon the world stage.
Now if the rest of the mob that surrounds him, will actually let him come more forwards instead of stifling him (for their own ends by internal political manoeuvrings!), time will tell...

Liam Byrne

I'll have to retract my original statement because yes, Shane Ross is definitely "worth a quarter of that" or even more.

Without taking in any way from the guy, however, the fact is that he is - as paddyland alluded to - simply doing what most of us are doing ourselves; taking an objective and fair look at the pathetic, inept and unfair performances of others.

If I and others can do that from home without being paid a grand a day, so could he.

So yes - fair play to him for being a relatively effective opposition/bull**** sniffer, don't get me wrong - but does that still make him worth €1,000 a day ?

And if anyone else was competent, would he still be worth it on the basis of what he achieves ?

Naz_st

Off the top of my head (and take with a pinch of salt, given that this is politics we're taking about here - there are no perfect saints!), I'd divide the current crop of politicians into:

Irredeemably Useless:
Brian Cowen (tops the list!), Mary Coughlan (FF), John Gormley (G), Frank Fahey (FF), Martin Cullen (FF), Dermot Ahern (FF), Willie O’Dea (FF), Mary O’Rourke (FF), John O’Donaghue (FF), Noel Dempsey (FF)

Potentially Useful:
Richard Bruton (FG), Michael Martin (FF), Barry Andrews (FF), Simon Coveney (FG), Mary Hanafin (FF), Michael Ring (FG), Alan Shatter (FG), John McGuinness (FF), Brian Hayes (FG), Leo Varadkar (FG), James Reilly (FG)

Perpetually mediocre:
Enda Kenny (FG), Brian Lenihan (I’d put him in Potentially Useful but for NAMA), Batt O’Keefe (FF)


First, you’ll note that the first section contains only FF (and one slightly Green-tinted FF, which could be reasonably mistaken for permanent nausea) – that’s because they seem to have a disproportionate number of morons and also because no other party has had a chance for their members to become “irredeemable” since FF have been in power for 12 years!

Second, I haven’t included any labour or SF here, mainly because I’m so ideologically opposed to their policies I just can’t be objective about them (i.e. while I can respect some of their politicians and wouldn't call them useless, I'm never going to be able to label them "useful" either).

Third, this is off the top of my head and "potentially useful" should be taken in relative terms (i.e. relative to the rest) and is from my overall impression of various politicians, so please don't start posting lots of "I can't believe you think [x] is useful/useless do you not remember [insert indo story from years ago here]".

Now, as to whether "potentially useful" is enough of an accolade to warrant the sort of salaries they are receiving is not a question with an easily objective answer...

hallelujajordan

Regarding Shane Ross' 'worth' . . while I have a lot of respect for the guy . . aren't you confusing his role as a journalist writing for the Sunday Independent (for which he is probably paid a similar salary) with his role as a Senator . . ? ?

Hard to see he has any worth as a Senator at all . . (much like the rest of the senate) . .

jmayo

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'll have to retract my original statement because yes, Shane Ross is definitely "worth a quarter of that" or even more.

Without taking in any way from the guy, however, the fact is that he is - as paddyland alluded to - simply doing what most of us are doing ourselves; taking an objective and fair look at the pathetic, inept and unfair performances of others.

If I and others can do that from home without being paid a grand a day, so could he.

So yes - fair play to him for being a relatively effective opposition/bull**** sniffer, don't get me wrong - but does that still make him worth €1,000 a day ?

And if anyone else was competent, would he still be worth it on the basis of what he achieves ?

Yes it does because if you ever check out his performances on Oireachtas Joint Committee on Economic Regulatory Affairs where he performs brilliantly as could be seen in his grilling of eugene sheehy concerning Eurgen McErlean affair.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Regarding Shane Ross' 'worth' . . while I have a lot of respect for the guy . . aren't you confusing his role as a journalist writing for the Sunday Independent (for which he is probably paid a similar salary) with his role as a Senator . . ? ?

Hard to see he has any worth as a Senator at all . . (much like the rest of the senate) . .

Why not check out above before you make such comments ?
It is on RTE website actually.
He does something that is patently obvious lenihan couldn't, he puts a banker through the wringer.

If other senators nevermind tds did half as much in exposing the dodgy practices then we mightn't need a NAMA at all.
But of course that would also be exposing some ffers and their links. :rolleyes:

His stance and very vocal support for Ethna Tinney in EBS probably helped save this coutnry from having EBS become another IN and thus cost us 8 billion to the taxpayer in NAMA.

hallelujajordan

jmayo wrote: »

Yes it does because if you ever check out his performances on Oireachtas Joint Committee on Economic Regulatory Affairs where he performs brilliantly as could be seen in his grilling of eugene sheehy concerning Eurgen McErlean affair.




Why not check out above before you make such comments ?
It is on RTE website actually.
He does something that is patently obvious lenihan couldn't, he puts a banker through the wringer.

If other senators nevermind tds did half as much in exposing the dodgy practices then we mightn't need a NAMA at all.
But of course that would also be exposing some ffers and their links. :rolleyes:

His stance and very vocal support for Ethna Tinney in EBS probably helped save this coutnry from having EBS become another IN and thus cost us 8 billion to the taxpayer in NAMA.

All wonderful . . but most of Ross' activities fall under the role of investigative journalist . . and I think he is great at using his Sunday Indo column to do that. . and would continue to even if he were not a senator.

But the role of TD's and Senators is to legislate and in this regard the senate is a fairly irrelevant body . . should we not measure their worth on how well they legislate ? ?

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

But the role of TD's and Senators is to legislate and in this regard the senate is a fairly irrelevant body . . should we not measure their worth on how well they legislate ? ?

We should.....that's why I was acknowledging Ross as being one of the few who appears to put people first, and also trying to phrase it that this shouldn't really be his job.

But if you judge the remainder on what they achieve as TD, you're looking at possibly the smoking ban as the only domestic success of the last ten years.

And that's definitely not worth 166 x €1,000 per day.

jmayo

hallelujajordan wrote: »

All wonderful . . but most of Ross' activities fall under the role of investigative journalist . . and I think he is great at using his Sunday Indo column to do that. . and would continue to even if he were not a senator.

But the role of TD's and Senators is to legislate and in this regard the senate is a fairly irrelevant body . . should we not measure their worth on how well they legislate ? ?

I hold that it is just not to legislate.
It is also to investigate matters that concern the welfare of the people and the welfare of the country.
As just a mere journalist he could not be in a position to force the ex head of one of our major banks to answer pertinent questions about the behaviour of said bank.
At least as memebr of committee he could get answers on behalf of us the taxpayers.

Is it Ross's fault that the relevant authorities tasked with regulating the acitvies of this bank (and the others) and thus ensuring good corporate governance were actually partially complicit in the bad behaviour by turnign a blind eye to it ?

In fact one prominent player liam o'reilly actually asked Mr McErlean to withdraw his allegation that AIB were overcharging.

Without the likes of Shane Ross and others members of the Dail committee investigating the lieks of the DIRT scandal, the taxpayers of this country would knoq even less of what passes for ethics and good corporate governance in this country.

His actions just go to highlight how inept and I would actually go so far as to say criminally negligent the central bank, IFSRA and dept of finance were in the creation of the whole banking crisis.

Never were these words more apt in a modern Irish context.
You can say he did some service to his country.

PomBear

Useful for me would be: Eamon Gilmore (Lab) Michael D. Higgins (Lab) Arthur Morgan (SF)

Red_Marauder

The question is not who we can afford to keep in, but who can we afford to keep out.

Lower the salary considerably and you'll see how many economists or lawyers or university educated professionals will apply then. Extremely few.

PomBear

They should get them on a salary of legitimate living salary but nothing more but first you have to prioritise expenses being claimed, most TD's take the piss with what they spend

Liam Byrne

Red_Marauder wrote: »

The question is not who we can afford to keep in, but who can we afford to keep out.

Lower the salary considerably and you'll see how many economists or lawyers or university educated professionals will apply then. Extremely few.

That's an old chestnut that's regularly trotted out when this issue is raised.

And that's the whole point of this thread - rather than bitching about individuals, I'm actually asking how many competent, ethical, worthwhile representatives has the current system given us.

We pay peanuts, we get monkeys.
We pay small fortunes, we still get monkeys.

I'd gladly pay twice the above to half as many people who could actually do the job.

But (a) I won't pay it to people who can't, and (b) I want to know which ones people believe are worth the above.

So far, we have 3 or 4 candidates; out of 166, that's atarting to head towards proof that there ain't many!