Champions League PlayOff

Helix

Premier League plans play-off for last Champions League place
The Premier League is considering introducing a play-off system to determine the fourth club to qualify for the following season's European Champions League.

Currently the club which finishes fourth goes through but the new proposal would mean a play-off between the clubs finishing fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh. The intention is to inject more competition into a league in which qualification has for years remained in the hands of the same four clubs.

Premier League sources have confirmed that the play-off proposal was presented at the most recent meeting of all clubs, on 4 February, and the league's chief executive, Richard Scudamore, was authorised to return with further details in April.

It is understood that the idea was enthusiastically supported by all clubs – except the so-called big four of Chelsea, Manchester United, Arsenal and Liverpool. Scudamore, and the league's secretary, Mike Foster, will examine the practicalities of how a play-off system could work: whether it should take the form of a home-and-away knockout system, similar to that in the Football League, or incorporate seeding. They will also look into when matches could be fitted into a crowded fixture calendar before making recommendations.

The idea was presented as part of the Premier League's strategic review of its format and operations and springs from two particular motivations. The first is to crack the problem of England's top league becoming less open and competitive, with the richest clubs, Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool, having strengthened their hold on the top four places over several years. One league source said it was an odd twist that the idea has been raised now, in a season when Liverpool's claim to the fourth place is being seriously challenged.

The response among clubs outside the top four is understood to have been positive, with some believing that a play-off system would create more competitive matches and give more clubs a prize to challenge for. Most clubs now feel they have no chance of attaining fourth place but almost the whole Premier League could be brought into a competition to finish seventh and make it to the play-offs. The medium-sized clubs, which increasingly aspire to break the cartel, are said to have been enthusiastic, seeing play-offs as a great opportunity.

The big four, who have been qualifying on merit at the end of each season and reaping the footballing and financial rewards of Champions League participation are understood to have been less keen. Self-interest is clearly a factor, with those clubs concerned about protecting their own advantages. However, there is also a feeling that the league should be more sophisticated about addressing its major challenges, particularly the financial ones, rather than incorpor-ating an awkward play-off system for a prize as ostensibly moderate as fourth place.

The other motivation for the play-offs is a waning of the proposal for an international round of matches, dubbed "Game 39", which was widely criticised for lacking coherence and being territorially expansionist. The play-offs would mean extra matches, which would be sold to pay-television and so generate more money for all clubs.

The consistent qualification of the same four clubs, widely seen as stifling competition, is not replicated across Europe. The Premier League largely blames the Uefa Champions League money, distributed to participating clubs, for entrenching the big four's financial power. Uefa, however, points out that Champions League income represents a small part, 8–13%, of Manchester United's, Chelsea's, Arsenal's and Liverpool's total turnover. Most of the big clubs' money is made in this country; Premier League television income is relatively evenly distributed but United, Chelsea and Arsenal in particular make much more than their nearest rivals from commercial activities and match-day revenues in the Premier League.

The Dutch league tried a play-off system for the second Champions League qualification place but abandoned it after the 2007-08 season, when FC Twente Enschede beat Ajax 2-1. The issues in Holland were the risk of crowd trouble at such high-stakes matches and a perception that the play-offs were one-sided.

In the Premier League there is some confidence that neither of those would present major problems. As a means of encouraging competition, opportunities and increasing income, the play-off proposal already seems to have enough support to suggest it could gain the necessary 14-6 majority to be implemented.

being a villa fan this obviously interests me greatly

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Interesting idea. Logistically, though, it'd be a nightmare. This is a world cup year - when the hell, if it was going ahead, would they be planning it??

CHD

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Interesting idea. Logistically, though, it'd be a nightmare. This is a world cup year - when the hell, if it was going ahead, would they be planning it??

Wed and Sun after the league finished would be grand

Helix

id be surprised if it happened this year tbh, probably be introduced next season

OPENROAD

Think this would be totally unfair,you could have a situation where a team that finishes 10 points or more behind a team qualifying.

JPA

Helix wrote: »

id be surprised if it happened this year tbh, probably be introduced next season

Or never.

Eire-Dearg

I propose a way in which Liverpool are given it each year, every year, no matter what.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

CHD wrote: »

Wed and Sun after the league finished would be grand

Helix wrote: »

id be surprised if it happened this year tbh, probably be introduced next season

Home and away plus a "final" is three matches. Also, you're assuming that none of the four clubs involved has qualified for the fa cup/champions league final/europa cup final.

There's a major international tournament every two years. Whenever they bring it in, they'll face that problem. I wonder how world cup managers would feel watching a full-blooded villa-liverpool one off match to get into the champions league with about four weeks to the start of the tournament....

Bukman13

They use smiliar systems in Greece and Belgium, I think it would be good for the league in general. More teams with more to play for, untill the end of the season.

Helix

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I wonder how world cup managers would feel watching a full-blooded villa-liverpool one off match to get into the champions league with about four weeks to the start of the tournament....

the same way theyd feel watching games in leagues that end a week or 2 after the premiership?

Helix

OPENROAD wrote: »

Think this would be totally unfair,you could have a situation where a team that finishes 10 points or more behind a team qualifying.

you could

but surely itd be 4th play 7th and 5th play 6th in the semis, giving the 4th place team the best shot at it

OPENROAD

Bukman13 wrote: »

They use smiliar systems in Greece and Belgium, I think it would be good for the league in general. More teams with more to play for, untill the end of the season.

But the best team does not qualify.

Helix

OPENROAD wrote: »

But the best team does not qualify.

thats not a given

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Helix wrote: »

the same way theyd feel watching games in leagues that end a week or 2 after the premiership?

Interesting point.

I still think it's a minefield. I think they moved the end of the premiership back so that england would have more time to prepare. Kind of makes a mockery of that idea.

Unless you do something like kill off the league cup, it's going to need more than a little fine tuning.

rossie1977

lets have a playoff to determine who wins the league while we are at it, similar to the rugby league

stupid idea

Mr Alan

yes it is. surely a team's place in the final league table is indicative of their performance that year. you'd be happy if Villa were to finish 4th next year, only to lose their CL place to Fulham who finished 15 points behind them?

Bukman13

OPENROAD wrote: »

But the best team does not qualify.

You could say that about any cup competition for any sport in the world.

Examples:

Portsmouth - Fa cup 08
Giants - Superbowl 08
Greece- Euro 04

m@cc@

This is only being introduced because clearly the 'fairness' in the PL is not working.

JPA

Chelsea, Man United fans: Meh

Liverpool, Arsenal fans: No, this is unfair

The Rest: Good Idea, gives the rest of the league a chance to break the stranglehold and monopoly of the champions league money.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

How about 5th v 6th possibly over two legs, winner to play the team that finishes fourth in a one-off?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

How about 5th v 6th possibly over two legs, winner to play the team that finishes fourth in a one-off?

That could work, unless it's villa/man city/spurs manage to make it to the FA cup final and the play offs at the same time. And then if Liverpool were to catch Arsenal for third (unlikley, I know!), but Arsenal were to make the CL final... Could be finished by June, which gives what - a week before the WC kicks off? Excellent prepration!

PHB

In general, I don't like cup competitions. I think that leagues are more reflective of a teams true standing. But I think that this proposal isn't about that.

CL football is worth so much money that if teams get in it year after year they begin to create a strangehold on the league. The top 4 situation is bad for the game long term imo. The league is already getting stagnant. If Liverpool hadn't been bought out by **** owners, nobody else would be getting a look in right now.

This idea will introduce an element of randomness to it I would expect. If you made it two legs though, I'd expect the top 4 to win it most times anyway. Cup tie in Wembley would be my preference.

I guarantee you any amount of money though, the first year its implemented, one of the top 4 will finish 6th or something, and win the playoffs.

Pepe LeFrits

They have/had this in the Eredivisie; I recall AZ finishing second but missing out on CL football to Ajax who finished 5th. I thought that was pretty stupid and I'm not inclined to change my view on that.

There's generally a difference of anywhere between 12 to 19 points between 4th and 7th. I wonder would the rest of the premiership be so enthusiastic about the proposal if it included play-offs at the other end of the table too? Have teams finishing 12th to 19th have a reverse play-off; whichever two teams lose twice get relegated.

The big four aren't the only 'haves' in football. The teams in the Europa league are wealthier than the yoyo clubs, who are wealthier than the permanent championship strugglers, and so on...

Helix

Mr Alan wrote: »

you'd be happy if Villa were to finish 4th next year, only to lose their CL place to Fulham who finished 15 points behind them?

if they were the rules at the start of the season then id have no issues with it

JPA

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

The big four aren't the only 'haves' in football. The teams in the Europa league are wealthier than the yoyo clubs, who are wealthier than the permanent championship strugglers, and so on...

The money from the europa league is minuscule compared to the champions league which is a money making machine.

OPENROAD

JPA wrote: »

Chelsea, Man United fans: Meh

Liverpool, Arsenal fans: No, this is unfair

The Rest: Good Idea, gives the rest of the league a chance to break the stranglehold and monopoly of the champions league money.

Would be interested to see if they do feel like this?

I still think it is unfair though

Eirebear

And thus the premiership becomes a glitzier league, but perversely less competitive as breaking the Sky Sports 4 becomes less important, because a 7th place finish gives you a 1 in 4 chance of CL football.

Helix

Eirebear wrote: »

a 7th place finish gives you a 1 in 4 chance of CL football.

thats not really how odds work

itd only be a 1 in 4 chance if the qualifier was drawn out of a hat

Eirebear

Helix wrote: »

thats not really how odds work

itd only be a 1 in 4 chance if the qualifier was drawn out of a hat

Is this the mathematics forum?

4 teams, 1 CL place. Each team start in the same place. Each team has the same chance of winning their games and going through....tell me...where am i going wrong.....

L'prof

Helix wrote: »

Champions League PlayOff

Oooh, controversial!

Wouldn't be a huge fan of it. The league finishes on the 9th of May, FA Cup final is on the 15th of May and the Champions League final is on the 22nd of May. It could happen that a team finishes 4th and is in both finals, then they'd have to fit an extra two fixtures in too? That would be a shambles!

Anyway, no point worrying about it. Is it just a suggestion at this stage or are they actually planning to go ahead with it?

CHD

OPENROAD wrote: »

Would be interested to see if they do feel like this?

I still think it is unfair though

I don't think that way, in one way it is good but if you finish 4th and miss out it would be really cruel. The current system works just keep it. Too much messing with football these days.

Helix

Eirebear wrote: »

Is this the mathematics forum?

4 teams, 1 CL place. Each team start in the same place. Each team has the same chance of winning their games and going through....tell me...where am i going wrong.....

because thats just not how it works lol

say the league positions were

4th liverpool
5th villa
6th city
7th stoke

despite stoke being one of the 4, they wouldnt have as good a chance as everyone else. so the 4 teams dont have an equal chance - team ability comes into it.

its only a 1 in 4 chance if the 4 team names go into a hat, and one is pulled out as being the qualifier. then they all have the exact same chance of getting in there, as nothing is based on ability

Eirebear

lol, ok thats fine if your a bookie or a punter.

However there is very little difference between 5th and 8th in the premiership. And dependant on form you can count fourth in there too.

As a Villa fan, i would assume that you would be confident in taking points from anyone out of the teams we would be looking at, Spurs, Liverpool, City, Everton etc.
So weve got a two legged tie, and a one off final. between teams all of an extremely similar stature, with a MASSIVE incentive at the end of it.

Youve pretty much got a one in four chance, and that is exactly how the Premiership marketing men would want it.

Smegball

I would be against this, sure it would be an exciting week, but I think it would massively take away any excitement in the final few weeks of games, if say Villa are lying in 5th guaranteed a play off why should they bother trying to catch the 4th placed team when they know they have the play off slot anyways, I think it would make it a damp squid in that regard.

Also I think the team who finishes 4th after 38 games deserves the slot rather than a team that finished 5th, 6th or 7th!

Say for example Arsenal finish 4th, 5 or 6 points clear of the team who finishs 5th, and say Spurs finish 7th. They meet in the play offs, Arsenal may have been a close run for third, but Fabregas is injured, they lose the play off to Spurs and Spurs get the slot.
I think this would be terrible and could possibly end up being the same sides getting the play off slots which sorta negates the whole premise!

JPA

CHD wrote: »

I don't think that way, in one way it is good but if you finish 4th and miss out it would be really cruel. The current system works just keep it. Too much messing with football these days.

The current system doesn't work and it's just getting worse. The teams in 1-4 keep getting the money from the champions league, therefore keep getting the better players, therefore stay better than the rest therefore stay in the top 4 so it seems to be a neverending cycle. Only a shakeup like the Man City takeover or a club being run badly (Liverpool) looks like changing it ATM.

everdead.ie

While I understand the want to even out the league and make it less stagnate I wouldn't be a huge fan of the play off idea the better team i.e the one that finishes fourth should get it on merit I think it would be a better idea to give the final champions league place to the winner of the F.A. Cup and have it revert to 4th if the team that wins it already has a place from the league.

Also the money in the europa league that goes to the winner is roughly half of what a club gets for competing in the group stages of the champions league but I think it also has to be seen that it's the power to attract players of a certain quality too

Paul Tergat

I hate this idea. Any parallel to rugby league should just be forgotten about.

38 PL games is easily enough indication as to who is the 4th best team in the league this season.

This sort of idea seems to be just making changes for the sake of it.

Paul Tergat

Helix wrote: »

if they were the rules at the start of the season then id have no issues with it

This is hugely important. Can't go shifting the goalposts halfway through the season.

OPENROAD wrote: »

Would be interested to see if they do feel like this?

I still think it is unfair though

You're right mate. Utd fan here and its a horrible idea.

larchielads

Smegball wrote: »

I would be against this, sure it would be an exciting week, but I think it would massively take away any excitement in the final few weeks of games, if say Villa are lying in 5th guaranteed a play off why should they bother trying to catch the 4th placed team when they know they have the play off slot anyways, I think it would make it a damp squid in that regard.

Also I think the team who finishes 4th after 38 games deserves the slot rather than a team that finished 5th, 6th or 7th!

Say for example Arsenal finish 4th, 5 or 6 points clear of the team who finishs 5th, and say Spurs finish 7th. They meet in the play offs, Arsenal may have been a close run for third, but Fabregas is injured, they lose the play off to Spurs and Spurs get the slot.
I think this would be terrible and could possibly end up being the same sides getting the play off slots which sorta negates the whole premise!

i love this idea. is this not how the champonship works? do you agree with how thats run?
say cardiff finish 3rd and missed out on promotion by a point or goal diff and get beaten by the 6th place team at wembley yet cardiff finished 12 points ahead of them in the table. cardiiffs best player is injured. then its just tough. should we scrap the the play off system in the lower leagues too?
i for one love watching the play offs and i'm sure most people here do too.

man utd fan.

Bubs101

Eirebear wrote: »

lol, ok thats fine if your a bookie or a punter.

However there is very little difference between 5th and 8th in the premiership. And dependant on form you can count fourth in there too.

As a Villa fan, i would assume that you would be confident in taking points from anyone out of the teams we would be looking at, Spurs, Liverpool, City, Everton etc.
So weve got a two legged tie, and a one off final. between teams all of an extremely similar stature, with a MASSIVE incentive at the end of it.

Youve pretty much got a one in four chance, and that is exactly how the Premiership marketing men would want it.

He's completely right though. It's not a one in four shot. As pointed out by a poster earlier they have this in the Eredivisie and for two years in a row Ajax finished outside the Champion's League places but got into the playoff where their superior quality shone through. Also, if it's seeded and just a one of game instead of one with two legs the home advantage that a top 4 team will inevitably get (they aren't finishing 6th) would give them an odds on chance of reaching the final whereas the smaller team would only have a 1 in 3 chance of winning

I like the idea because playoffs are exciting but I think it's really flawed and will actually help the big 4. They have far more experience in do or die playoffs from the Champion's League and in the recent past in years when the top 4 or 3 has been broken by an established team (Chelsea and Everton (and very nearly Spurs)) it's always been really close and the big team that misses out only does it by one spot. So in those cases you'd be looking at the big 4 team getting home tie advantage, probably winning and then facing the team that beat them in a one off game in Wembley but they have a better squad and more big game experience.

It's near impossible for a new team (except City maybe) to break the top 4 but to break the top 3 would be impossible

Paul Tergat

Bubs101 wrote: »

I like the idea because playoffs are exciting but I think it's really flawed and will actually help the big 4.

I cannot disagree with this more.

The advantage a top 4 team has is that is is fundamentally better. Therefore, over a larger sample of games, i.e. a league, the better team is more likely to be 4th. Making the 4th best team enter what is essentially a lottery is not advantageous to the top 4 team.

For example, I'd say that the top 4 will remain as it is maybe 8 or 9 times out of 10 in a league format but when putting the 4th team into a play off scenario then they can quite easily lose a one off game - the basic concept of variance....its more likely to even out over a larger sample - the league.

If you follow???

cooker3

CHD wrote: »

The current system works just keep it.

But it doesn't. It produces a positive feedback loop of more money going to the same teams which makes it easier for them to stay in top 4 and the gap grows ever more. It's completely monotonous.

I like the idea but not sure how it would be feasible without a fixture clash.

Paul Tergat

Openroad just thank this post now sir, we appear to think along the same lines

What we should do is, at the end of the season, just have the top 3 in the champs league and then places 4-17 have a massive playoff for the champions league :rolleyes:

Top 4 and grand slam sundays ftw!

Bubs101

p_larkin99 wrote: »

I cannot disagree with this more.

The advantage a top 4 team has is that is is fundamentally better. Therefore, over a larger sample of games, i.e. a league, the better team is more likely to be 4th. Making the 4th best team enter what is essentially a lottery is not advantageous to the top 4 team.

For example, I'd say that the top 4 will remain as it is maybe 8 or 9 times out of 10 in a league format but when putting the 4th team into a play off scenario then they can quite easily lose a one off game - the basic concept of variance....its more likely to even out over a larger sample - the league.

If you follow???

Your discounting the incredible likelyhood that City will have broken the top 4 by the time this is introduced giving the top 4 clubs another chance to get in when the first serious contender with long term potential has emerged in years

bUILDERtHEbOB

I like the idea that this has come up to 'break up the top 4' at a time when the chances of one of those top 4 teams finishing fourth are in doubt.

jesus_thats_gre

It will make things more exciting but the league table is the perfect metric for determing who is entitled to what.

This could very easily get very retarded.


You could end up in a situation where a club like Liverpool completely favours the CL over the domestic league as it essentially makes no difference whether they finish 4th of 7th. They could do the bare minimum in the league and give it all in the CL. Taking Liverpool as the example, they have the experience and ability to go all the way and win it. So Liverpool could finish 7th in the league and win the Champions League, thus ensuring qualification for the CL again the next season having technically been able to dedicate all resources to the league while Chelsea or United battled out for 1st and had to spread their resouces out that bit thinner.

Another issue that would arise out of the above scenario is what happens to the playoff position if one of the playoff teams won the competition.

Xavi6

Almost as stupid an idea as the team finishing 4th getting a place in 'Champions' League.

jesus_thats_gre

cooker3 wrote: »

But it doesn't. It produces a positive feedback loop of more money going to the same teams which makes it easier for them to stay in top 4 and the gap grows ever more. It's completely monotonous.

I like the idea but not sure how it would be feasible without a fixture clash.

It's monotonous but the feedback loop is a product of the club taking advantage of the opportunity that they have fairly earned.

You could technically argue that the CL revenues that the 4th place team receive should just be shared equally among all teams placed between 4th and 7th in the league/

Sure the team that finishes 1st in the league technically receives an unfair advantage over competing teams in the following season as they have received dramatically more prize money than all others. United winning the league 3 seasons in a row is more of a product of their league success than it is their CL success.

Sure we could just go one further and argue that the feedback loop created by United's success in the league should be addressed. A play off should be created among the top 4 placed teams in the league to determine who wins the league title and all that prize money just to make things fairer and add a little bit of randomness into the mix.

The whole thing is retarded to be frank. 38 games is more than enough to determine who is entitled to what.

jesus_thats_gre

Bubs101 wrote: »

Your discounting the incredible likelyhood that City will have broken the top 4 by the time this is introduced giving the top 4 clubs another chance to get in when the first serious contender with long term potential has emerged in years

bUILDERtHEbOB wrote: »

I like the idea that this has come up to 'break up the top 4' at a time when the chances of one of those top 4 teams finishing fourth are in doubt.

Didn't think of this. The top 4 clubs are far better equipped to deal with such a playoff. They would probably gain quite a bit of experience from this play off as well.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Xavi6 wrote: »

Almost as stupid an idea as the team finishing 4th getting a place in 'Champions' League.

You won't be wanting it, then, if City take fourth...?

JimsAlterEgo

Crap idea but expect it to be fasttracked if pool don't finish in top 4