Champions League PlayOff

Xavi6

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

You won't be wanting it, then, if City take fourth...?

Oh of course I'll take it but I've never agreed with the concept of the competition under its current name. If the rules were to change tomorrow to only allow actual champions to compete I'd be very supportive.

GavRedKing

It would help any team that ahs finished outside the top 4 no end but it isnt ultimately fair on the team that has finished fourth. At the end of the day when you finish 3rd and 4th you still have to qualify for the Champions League by playing another round of qualifiers at the start of the following season.

There is nothign wrong with it in its current format. Im Chelsea fan and should Chelsea finish 5th this season or next or whenever, it will be down to them not being good enough and 4 other teams being better, simple as, im not going moan about not getting 4th and demanding another back door way in to the CL.

Outside of the top 4 there is maybe 3 teams that could potentially break into the top 4 and there goal for the season would be to attempt this, if they fail they still get Europa League games with extra revenue, not as much as CL but for the clubs that get there they deserve it, they have earned the right.

simple, just keep it the way it is.

JimsAlterEgo

sure why not have champions qualify and the next 16 teams playoff in a knockout tournament with bottom 3 relegated.

Green Giant

It's like this. A league is a league. Not a knockout competition. 38 matches over nine months. Every team will have peaks and troughs, wins and losses, full squads and injury crises, luck and misfortune. If, after 38 games and nine months, you come out on top, you deserve to be champions. If you're runners-up, you're rightfully the 2nd-best team in the division. If you finish bottom, you've been shown up as a team who cannot compete in that league.

Champions League play-offs, pffft! Keep it simple, dammit!

Mitch Connor

just give the CL spot to the FA Cup winner.

Dont be at yourself

This is treating a symptom of the imbalance of the Premier League (and football as a whole), but not the cause.

If a team finishes 4th and qualifies for the CL, then they were the better team over the season, and deserve it ahead of the teams who finished below them.

We can ask why they were the better team, and then talk about the stream of CL money giving them an unfair advantage and so on. That's the problem that should be tackled, through transfer or wage caps, or through a more even distribution of money. Tackle the problem at its root.

patmac

Great idea.
For Sky Sports as they could extend the footy season even further, thus ensuring a longer subscription for the armchair fan.
Also could you imagine if City came 4th and then Liverpool won the play-offs as a United fan I'd would be very confused. Unless of course Villa or Spurs nicked it on penalties. Wow all of a sudden I can see what a great idea this could be.

mike65

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

You could end up in a situation where a club like Liverpool completely favours the CL over the domestic league as it essentially makes no difference whether they finish 4th of 7th. They could do the bare minimum in the league and give it all in the CL. Taking Liverpool as the example, they have the experience and ability to go all the way and win it. So Liverpool could finish 7th in the league and win the Champions League, thus ensuring qualification for the CL again the next season having technically been able to dedicate all resources to the league while Chelsea or United battled out for 1st and had to spread their resouces out that bit thinner.

Given that our current owners business model is dependent on CL qualification and not winning the league (the teams is popular enough without that) I can see this being approved by Gillett and Hicks!

dreamers75

They do this in Holland, complete madness.

Bascially doesnt matter where you finish you still have a shot at the end of the season.

Be great for the PL tho, share the debt etc:

JimsAlterEgo

mike65 wrote: »

Given that our current owners business model is dependent on CL qualification and not winning the league (the teams is popular enough without that) I can see this being approved by Gillett and Hicks!

thats proably the danger - if put to a vote most clubs would probably vote for it as most would feel they probably had a chance of getting 7th.

PHB

Actually, I don't see why they don't just do it for the FA Cup.

ROCKMAN

Just another way to make sure the big teams are in the Champions league year in ,year out . IMO

Next SEASON say Utd ,Chelsea ,Arsenal or Liverpool :pac:have a very bad start to the league and are out of contention at Christmas . Now they have a easier target to have a shot at champions league football ie 7th . With respect to the Cities , Villa's and Spurs .You would fancy Utd and Co in any play off system .

FutureGuy

Letting 2nd, 3rd and 4th into the Champions league already makes a mockery of the original idea behind the competition. So with that already been done, I'd welcome a playoff for the fourth spot.

Would make the league alot more interesting.

Tusky

Awful awful idea. Look at last years table, here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9309_Premier_League

With this system Fulham could potential end up in the Champions league above Arsenal despite finishing almost 20 points behind.

What happens if a team fights all year to finish 4th, but is then ravaged by injuries when the playoff comes around and loses out ? It just seems ridiculous to me. The 4 best teams that year, should qualify for the competition next year.

Pepe LeFrits

bUILDERtHEbOB wrote: »

I like the idea that this has come up to 'break up the top 4' at a time when the chances of one of those top 4 teams finishing fourth are in doubt.

Combined with UEFA's new debt proposals, this probably means we'll see Colchester in the CL soon.

I can see why people would want this but it is a stupid way to do it frankly. As far as breaking the 'big four' goes - yeah, it'd probably make it a big three. The teams getting fourth will have to go through these playoffs and then a pre-qualifier every season and there's a fair chance that no team outside the big 3 will be able to achieve CL football regularly enough to be able to build a playform to challenge the big 3. Man City could do probably do it with their finances, but if they're already there when this is implemented, the big 3 would be City, Chelsea and United... the rest could go home.

Weakening the PLs fourth entrant could conceivably eventually result in the PL losing it's fourth spot altogether.

L'prof

larchielads wrote: »

i love this idea. is this not how the champonship works? do you agree with how thats run?
say cardiff finish 3rd and missed out on promotion by a point or goal diff and get beaten by the 6th place team at wembley yet cardiff finished 12 points ahead of them in the table. cardiiffs best player is injured. then its just tough. should we scrap the the play off system in the lower leagues too?
i for one love watching the play offs and i'm sure most people here do too.

man utd fan.

I don't really watch the playoffs or particularly like the idea behind them. They're just there to generate more cash, which is the main reason they'd be introduced in the premiership. It doesn't happen in the other top leagues, would be a great incentive for Villa, Everton, Spurs,...

L'prof

Xavi6 wrote: »

Oh of course I'll take it but I've never agreed with the concept of the competition under its current name. If the rules were to change tomorrow to only allow actual champions to compete I'd be very supportive.

I'd prefer they just changed the competition name, rather than having to continually read posts in a similar vein to this!

The competition was expanded to generate more money but, I enjoy the current format. If it were to revert back to just the champions of each country qualifying, the competition as a whole would suffer.

Ferris_Bueller

I agree that it would make the league a lot more interesting and exciting. But IMO it would be completely unfair on the team that finishes 4th. Over 38 games I would imagine its fair to say they're the 4th best team in the league, much the same as the team who finishes 1st being champions no?

But 2 big flaws I spot with it are, 1) Say with 5 games to go the team who were 4th were mathimatically gauranteed to finish in the top 7, but they weren't able to finish in the top 3, that would give them 5 games rest (technically) were they could put out their under 18s if they wanted, and then go into the play offs and have their strongest 11 fresh as daisies. Not to mention if this team were in FA/CL/EL cup still about to play a team who was competing for something in their own league, would this team not have an advantage by having 5 games where nothing is at stake?

Then 2) How about if the team finishing 4th finished say 15 points ahead of 5th, and then in the last league game of the season as they compete for 3rd they lose their 2 star players to injury, now all of a sudden these play-offs have the potential to ruin their whole season.

evil_seed

i think it's a good idea. let's not forget that, that 4th place goes into a champions league qualifying round anyways. not even gaurenteed to enter the comp outright.

L'prof

evil_seed wrote: »

i think it's a good idea. let's not forget that, that 4th place goes into a champions league qualifying round anyways. not even gaurenteed to enter the comp outright.

That's true...surely the 4th placed team would have a better chance of qualifying?

plonk

jasonorr wrote: »

I'd prefer they just changed the competition name, rather than having to continually read posts in a similar vein to this!

The competition was expanded to generate more money but, I enjoy the current format. If it were to revert back to just the champions of each country qualifying, the competition as a whole would suffer.

And the leagues would suffer hugely, think about when it was just the PL winner getting in, united blackburn and arsenal all did pretty poorly in the CL but when the second team was allowed to qualify it brought more money to the PL and its been improving ever since, now being arguably the best league in europe/world whereas before it was overshadowed by Spain and Italy.

Dont be at yourself

plonk wrote: »

And the leagues would suffer hugely, think about when it was just the PL winner getting in, united blackburn and arsenal all did pretty poorly in the CL but when the second team was allowed to qualify it brought more money to the PL and its been improving ever since, now being arguably the best league in europe/world whereas before it was overshadowed by Spain and Italy.

If only the champions were allowed in, it would devalue the CL, but it was greatly improve the value of the UEFA Cup. At the end of the day, people would still see the best teams from all over Europe competing against each other, and paying top dollar for the privilege.

JimsAlterEgo

only one change I would like to see to current format is some incentive for league winners over others in the same league. Correct me if I am worng but in some leagues (ENG, ITA and Spain) what is the advantage of finishing first over second?

JimsAlterEgo

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

If only the champions were allowed in, it would devalue the CL, but it was greatly improve the value of the UEFA Cup. At the end of the day, people would still see the best teams from all over Europe competing against each other, and paying top dollar for the privilege.

totally agree - a champions only competion would turn out be something like the world club championships - there would probably only be 2 winners (English or Spanihs champions)

everdead.ie

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

only one change I would like to see to current format is some incentive for league winners over others in the same league. Correct me if I am worng but in some leagues (ENG, ITA and Spain) what is the advantage of finishing first over second?

The title perhaps?
Bragging rights?

everdead.ie

I have to say tho if it goes to a vote I can't see it not getting past because apart from Man U,Chelsea,Arsenal & Liverpool why wouldn't other teams want the chance to get into the champions league look at sunderland came up and then ended up 7th two years running didn't reading do it too in a one off game anything can happen although 90% of the time you would expect one of the aformentioned 4 to come out on top

flahavaj

Sounds like bullsh*t to me. If anything it suits the big sides even more. It'll be like the back door in the GAA championship, basically gives the big guns yet another chance at getting into the CL if they have a poor season.

Spiritoftheseventies

slightly different situation there flah. Back door in Gaa was introduced to give teams an extra game in championship.
This more in line in what they have in place in lower leagues. 3rd would play 6th and fourth would play 6th I would assume with two winners then playing off.
Not a bad idea.

flahavaj

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

slightly different situation there flah. Back door in Gaa was introduced to give teams an extra game in championship.
This more in line in what they have in place in lower leagues. 3rd would play 6th and fourth would play 6th I would assume with two winners then playing off.
Not a bad idea.

While the thinking behind the back door in GAA was sound though (giving teams extra games etc), from the POV of teh big guns all it does is give the Kerrys and Tyrones of this world an extra sefety net and allows them to time their training to peak for the middle of the summer when the quarter finals are on rather than be on form from day one. Ina away this would give the likes of Liverpool an extra safety nest as well, they could get away with a poor season and still get themeselves into the CL by winning the play offs.

As I said, lousy idea, for me anyway.

pickarooney

The eerste divisie (Dutch 2nd div) has an even wackier way of deciding the promotion spots - each quarter season has a champion and the leader at each of the cut-off points goes into a playoff. So you could be leading the league in October and drop into the relegation places by May and still end up getting promote. I'm a bit fuzzy on how thsi works when the same team leads all the way through...

RandolphEsq

I think this is a great idea;

4th place is unpredictable with 3/4 teams strongly competing for it. That would make for some great viewing at the end of the season to watch them fight over it!

Also, it give the 'middle teams' something to aim for (7th place) which keeps whoever is in 7th place constantly on their toes!

_blank_

RandolphEsq wrote: »

4th place is unpredictable

History would disagree with you there mate.

RandolphEsq

Eirebear wrote: »

Is this the mathematics forum?

4 teams, 1 CL place. Each team start in the same place. Each team has the same chance of winning their games and going through....tell me...where am i going wrong.....

Des wrote: »

History would disagree with you there mate.

IS not was

joe123

Bad idea imo but maybe thats because im a Liverpool fan. Say we finish fourth ten points ahead of 5th and 17 ahead of 6th/7th. Therefore we deserve to qualify. Of course its better for the smaller teams as it will give the likes of Fulham etc a chance of champions league football.

But the problem is not always the best team over the course of the season will qualify.

RandolphEsq

joe123 wrote: »

But the problem is not always the best team over the course of the season will qualify.

Unite the criteria for qualification to whoever finishes 4th - 7th and can get through the playoffs

Fear of change is all that can be argued against this

Kess73

I don't like play offs at all, and think the idea is a bad one.


I have always hated the play offs in the lower leagues in England, and see it as totally unfair on a team that has earned third place over the course of a season should then be put in a position that a team as low as sixth place could take the promotion slot.

It also bugs me that when there is a play off for a promotion place, that there is not one for a relegation slot. If the play off teams from third to sixth all have a chance of coming up, then the teams from 18th to 15th should have a play off system too with the losing team getting relegated.


Having it for the CL place would be just as bad. Sure it may get new clubs ingto the CL, but there is then a strong chance of that team getting knocked out quickly, which would damage the league's coefficient ranking, which in turn could lead to the loss of a CL slot for that league.


Damn I miss the old European cup system where just the winner of each league got in. That made the competition much more prestigious in my eyes.

Paul Tergat

I just can't understand why you would have a league, which is the most accurate way of judging who is the 4th best team, and then at the end turn it into a cup style lottery.

There is a reason for having a league as the basis of judging a true and much mpre accurate standing of each team. I don't see a reason to change that. We already have cup's with one off games and theres no need for one in the PL.

stovelid

Eirebear wrote: »

but perversely less competitive as breaking the Sky Sports 4 becomes less important, because a 7th place finish gives you a 1 in 4 chance of CL football.

The competition has long being devalued when we have a system where teams that finish second, third and fourth - and therefore any number of relative points from the actual league winners - can compete in a "Champions" League.

At least this proposal accepts that anomaly but attempts to spread around the goodies a bit.

Obviously it will be KB'd by clubs who are so financially imprudent that qualification has become less of a bonus than utterly mandatory.
.

cooker3

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

It's monotonous but the feedback loop is a product of the club taking advantage of the opportunity that they have fairly earned.

You could technically argue that the CL revenues that the 4th place team receive should just be shared equally among all teams placed between 4th and 7th in the league/

Sure the team that finishes 1st in the league technically receives an unfair advantage over competing teams in the following season as they have received dramatically more prize money than all others. United winning the league 3 seasons in a row is more of a product of their league success than it is their CL success.

Sure we could just go one further and argue that the feedback loop created by United's success in the league should be addressed. A play off should be created among the top 4 placed teams in the league to determine who wins the league title and all that prize money just to make things fairer and add a little bit of randomness into the mix.

The whole thing is retarded to be frank. 38 games is more than enough to determine who is entitled to what.

Well yes I do think something should be done about Uniteds success but not just United in particular. The general monotony of European leagues with the same teams winning over and over again. England: United, Chelsea, Arsenal. Spain: Barca and Real. Italy: Inter and Juve back when they were paying off refs.

The champions league has played a large part in this as it becomes a kind of closed shop with the same teams appearing every year. I would love for some way so that teams such as Spurs, Villa etc actually went into a season thinking they had a chance of winning the league. Something which addresses the balance is much needed, as at the moment most leagues are no better then the SPL.

citytillidie

Just have to say stupid idea. The Dutch have stopped it.

As another poster said what happens if say if a team wins the champions league and finishes 6th in the league. Now they will get the Champions Leauge holders spot in the draw and automacitally in the group stage so does that drag the team who finishes 3rd into the playoff?

everdead.ie

Does anyone know what the process is like for this kind of a decision.

citytillidie

What about this

Have two play offs right you have your 38 game season and then 1-16 are in a play off to see who wins the league and with a 3rd and 4th game with the two beaten semi finalists to see who gets the 3rd automatic champions league spot. Then another playoff between 17-20 with the winner of that play off staying in the premier league

everdead.ie

Maybe a mod could stick up a poll
Yes do it
No
Atari Jaguar

Mr.Nice Guy

It's funny I remember Venables being on Sky a few months back talking about how in the old days it was about trying to win the league whereas now coming fourth is supposed to be regarded as an achievement. He joked that pretty soon the top half of the table will be fighting for European places.

It looks like things are actually heading that way now. What a farce it would be to see teams congratulating themselves on finishing sixth in the league.

Maybe the Europa League could then have a play-off involving teams even lower down the table. It's a joke.

This system will be presented as if it's giving others a chance of success when the reality is it will only safeguard the dominance of the top clubs.

L'prof

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

It's funny I remember Venables being on Sky a few months back talking about how in the old days it was about trying to win the league whereas now coming fourth is supposed to be regarded as an achievement. He joked that pretty soon the top half of the table will be fighting for European places.

It looks like things are actually heading that way now. What a farce it would be to see teams congratulating themselves on finishing sixth in the league.

Maybe the Europa League could then have a play-off involving teams even lower down the table. It's a joke.

This system will be presented as if it's giving others a chance of success when the reality is it will only safeguard the dominance of the top clubs.

It depends on the team surely?

The Volt

I think the FA Cup winners getting into the Champions League would be interesting.

JPA

While people might disagree with the play off idea do they not agree that gap in revenue between the champions league clubs and the rest is distorting the league?
We're talking 30 million a season.

everdead.ie

Voltwad wrote: »

I think the FA Cup winners getting into the Champions League would be interesting.

I really like this idea too.

The reason teams aim for fourth is because they know they have zero chance of winning the league before they have champions league football because they can't attract the players at that level untill they have it. Unless they have a sugar Daddy and even then it's shown with City you can't buy everyone you'd like there are some top top footballers who wouldn't play anywhere but in the champions league

Voltwad

Voltwad wrote: »

I think the FA Cup winners getting into the Champions League would be interesting.

everdead.ie wrote: »

I really like this idea too.

What if the FA cup winners have already qualified for the CL by finishing in the top 3?

What then? Give it to the runners up? Not very fair imo.

Dont be at yourself

JPA wrote: »

While people might disagree with the play off idea do they not agree that gap in revenue between the champions league clubs and the rest is distorting the league?
We're talking 30 million a season.

Yes, but this proposed solution isn't tackling the problem, it's tackling a symptom.