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Israeli apartheid

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    #332
    meditraitor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,207 ✭✭✭meditraitor


    anymore wrote: »
    As you well know International relations are seldom black and white, particularily in this most vexed areas of all. One never quite knows who is ones friend or ones enemy. Curiousily, the only palestinian I have personally known claimed refugee status in Irelnad not because of israel, but because of the inter palestinian conflict. So who is your enemy and who is your friend if you are a palestinian. And which apartheid system do you fear most ? Is it the Israeli one or the one imposed by either fatah or Hamas or one of the convenient satellite militant gangs used by hamas ?
    And where exactly is the respect for international law betwen the various groups within Palestine itself - is it suspened until one group is victorious and when it will then virtuosly proclaim the primacy of International law - at least n so far as it is convenient for attacking Israel ? " All hail International Law !

    You should really do a small bit of research about the root cause of the inter-palestinian fighting......... you will find that the real protagonist in this dispute is not actually palestinian..... Go have a little read young man!


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    #333
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    meditraitor wrote: »
    You should really do a small bit of research about the root cause of the inter-palestinian fighting......... you will find that the real protagonist in this dispute is not actually palestinian..... Go have a little read young man!

    What ! Do you mean it is really Mossad agents who went around shooting umarmed Fatah members ? Well the rotters !:mad::mad:


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    #334
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    joesoap007 wrote: »
    biased ?but what other story is there to tell??

    They stole my land, burnt my olive trees, destroyed my house, took my water, imprisoned my father, killed my mother, starved us all, humiliated us all. But I am to blame : I shot a rocket back. So they stole more of my land, burnt my olive trees, destroyed my house, took my water, bombed my country
    Sounds a bit like Cromwell in Ireland doesnt it ?
    Of course we at some point decided that having three green fileds was an option we could live with and accepted the Fourth green field had to stay under the rule of the Brits ! Guess that is why ireland desoite the recession is still not a third world country. And we even changed our constitution to reflect the reality of life.


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    #335
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    anymore wrote: »
    As you well know International relations are seldom black and white, particularily in this most vexed areas of all. One never quite knows who is ones friend or ones enemy. Curiousily, the only palestinian I have personally known claimed refugee status in Irelnad not because of israel, but because of the inter palestinian conflict. So who is your enemy and who is your friend if you are a palestinian. And which apartheid system do you fear most ? Is it the Israeli one or the one imposed by either fatah or Hamas or one of the convenient satellite militant gangs used by hamas ?

    Hamas aren't running an Apartheid system. They pretty much treat everyone like crap. Israel on the other hand specfically treat Palestinians (another racial group) like crap.

    Also, treating political opponents like crap is not the same a Apartheid.
    anymore wrote: »
    And where exactly is the respect for international law betwen the various groups within Palestine itself - is it suspened until one group is victorious and when it will then virtuosly proclaim the primacy of International law - at least n so far as it is convenient for attacking Israel ? " All hail International Law !

    Palestinians are expected to abide by International law like anyone else, and no one here has said otherwise. You on there other hand have rejected it, and think Israel is above it, so you criticism doesn't amount to much, seeing as you reject international law, and as such it is a bit rich for you to condemn Palestinians in this regard.


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    #336
    meditraitor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,207 ✭✭✭meditraitor


    anymore wrote: »
    What ! Do you mean it is really Mossad agents who went around shooting umarmed Fatah members ? Well the rotters !:mad::mad:

    :eek: is that true
    , i cant belieeeeeeve it.


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    #337
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    anymore wrote: »
    What ! Do you mean it is really Mossad agents who went around shooting umarmed Fatah members ? Well the rotters !:mad::mad:

    The US backed a coup by Fatah, which Hamas pre-empted, which has directly led to the current situation:


    US plotted to overthrow Hamas after election victory


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    #338
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    anymore wrote: »
    Sounds a bit like Cromwell in Ireland doesnt it ?
    Of course we at some point decided that having three green fileds was an option we could live with and accepted the Fourth green field had to stay under the rule of the Brits !.

    What "three green fields" do the Palestinians have?


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    #339
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    wes wrote: »
    Hamas aren't running an Apartheid system. They pretty much treat everyone like crap. Israel on the other hand specfically treat Palestinians (another racial group) like crap.

    Also, treating political opponents like crap is not the same a Apartheid.



    Palestinians are expected to abide by International law like anyone else, and no one here has said otherwise. You on there other hand have rejected it, and think Israel is above it, so you criticism doesn't amount to much, seeing as you reject international law, and as such it is a bit rich for you to condemn Palestinians in this regard.

    I am loath to say that Hamas are running a campaign of genocide, at present. But lining completely unarmed fellow palestinians and murdering them in cold blood, and there are quite a few videos of different incidents like this, must fall some where between apartheid and genoicide.You pick, if you like. It is time to drop the blinkers and realise that israel's wrongs just form part of the catalogue of wrongs in this area and that the wrongs in this area are moderate in comparision to nearby iraq and the inter communal slaughter that has taken place there in recent years.
    Israel and palestine is no longer the main event in the ME. It has been relegated to second division and is in danger of going into third division.


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    #340
    The Saint
    Registered Users Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    anymore wrote: »
    I am loath to say that Hamas are running a campaign of genocide, at present. But lining completely unarmed fellow palestinians and murdering them in cold blood, and there are quite a few videos of different incidents like this, must fall some where between apartheid and genoicide.You pick, if you like. It is time to drop the blinkers and realise that israel's wrongs just form part of the catalogue of wrongs in this area and that the wrongs in this area are moderate in comparision to nearby iraq and the inter communal slaughter that has taken place there in recent years.
    Israel and palestine is no longer the main event in the ME. It has been relegated to second division and is in danger of going into third division.
    I'd suggest you look up the definitions of "genocide" and "apartheid" as neither of them are applicable to this situations, as bad as it is.


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    #341
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    anymore wrote: »
    I am loath to say that Hamas are running a campaign of genocide, at present. But lining completely unarmed fellow palestinians and murdering them in cold blood, and there are quite a few videos of different incidents like this, must fall some where between apartheid and genoicide.You pick, if you like.

    Look up the meaning of the 2 terms. For something to be Genocide, you have to be trying to wipe out a racial or relgious group. Hamas, are not trying to do that.

    Apartheid, is seperation of racial groups. Hamas are not doing that.

    Hamas have killed polticial opponents, but that is not the same as Apartheid of Genocide. Honestly, Hamas are not nice people, but using terms like genocide is silly, and pure hyperbole.
    anymore wrote: »
    It is time to drop the blinkers and realise that israel's wrongs just form part of the catalogue of wrongs in this area and that the wrongs in this area are moderate in comparision to nearby iraq and the inter communal slaughter that has taken place there in recent years.

    So? Israel being less worse than Iraq is not a defence, it is whataboutery.
    anymore wrote: »
    Israel and palestine is no longer the main event in the ME. It has been relegated to second division and is in danger of going into third division.

    Well, unfortunately for you, pretty much everyone disagrees with that. The I/P conflict will be in the news for many decades to come, and a lot of people do care.


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    #342
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    anymore wrote: »
    I am(.......) into third division.

    Would you mind getting back to me re post 338?


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    #343
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    wes wrote: »
    Look up the meaning of the 2 terms. For something to be Genocide, you have to be trying to wipe out a racial or relgious group. Hamas, are not trying to do that.

    Apartheid, is seperation of racial groups. Hamas are not doing that.

    Hamas have killed polticial opponents, but that is not the same as Apartheid of Genocide. Honestly, Hamas are not nice people, but using terms like genocide is silly, and pure hyperbole.



    So? Israel being less worse than Iraq is not a defence, it is whataboutery.

    Well I did say i was loath to use the expression 'genocide' - Hamas deal with that in their |Charter, but you define the widespread and systematic killing of unarmed politicial opponents if you are unhappy with my use of the terms. but please, do not say 'Hamas are not nice people' i know quite few people who are ' not nice' people, but none of them has ever killed anyone ! 'Not nice people' is a term you find Victorian novels.


    Well, unfortunately for you, pretty much everyone disagrees with that. The I/P conflict will be in the news for many decades to come, and a lot of people do care.

    Well I did say i was loath to use the expression 'genocide' - Hamas deal with that in their |Charter, but you define the widespread and systematic killing of unarmed politicial opponents if you are unhappy with my use of the terms. but please, do not say 'Hamas are not nice people' i know quite few people who are ' not nice' people, but none of them has ever killed anyone ! 'Not nice people' is a term you find Victorian novels.

    As for ' pretty everyone disagrees with you', well if the arab oil producing antions wanted the conflict resolved, it would have decades ago. Enough said. After who else was allowed to fly on civil flights in the US on ?


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    #344
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    Nodin wrote: »
    Would you mind getting back to me re post 338?
    Oh dont worry if you dont understand the reference to 'three green fields', its an irish thing.
    Are you the Nodin who posts on P.ie ?
    If so I am sure someone will explain the reference and background.


    P.S Wes, Re : So? IsrSo? Israel being less worse than Iraq is not a defence, it is whataboutery.

    I'd say the difference between Israel and iraq is about 100,000 dead people. You may regard it ias ' Whataboutery' f you so choose.


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    #345
    The Saint
    Registered Users Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    anymore wrote: »
    As for ' pretty everyone disagrees with you', well if the arab oil producing antions wanted the conflict resolved, it would have decades ago.
    Care to elborate on this?


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    #346
    whynotwhycanti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 261 ✭✭whynotwhycanti


    anymore wrote: »
    As for ' pretty everyone disagrees with you', well if the arab oil producing antions wanted the conflict resolved, it would have decades ago. Enough said. After who else was allowed to fly on civil flights in the US on ?

    Simply not true. Former president Jimmy Carter has met with the leaders of the majority of the Arab nations who have said they recognise Israels right to exist but also that the Palestinians are entitled to their own state. He negotiated peace between Israel and Egypt and from reading his book and taking on board the great inside knowledge he has of the situation, it is fair to say that the majoirty of what you write and have been writing is absolute drivel. However, if, what he says is false, then what you wirte has some truth. I know whos opinion i would take on the sitaution.

    Anyway, his book was deemed controversal and met with the usual, Jimmy Carter is an anti-semite remarks.


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    #347
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    anymore wrote: »
    Well I did say i was loath to use the expression 'genocide' - Hamas deal with that in their |Charter, but you define the widespread and systematic killing of unarmed politicial opponents if you are unhappy with my use of the terms. but please, do not say 'Hamas are not nice people' i know quite few people who are ' not nice' people, but none of them has ever killed anyone ! 'Not nice people' is a term you find Victorian novels.

    Look up what the term means. You are simple factually incorrect in using that term "Genocide".

    I will refer to Hamas in the same as I have always done so. I think it fair to say they are not nice people.
    anymore wrote: »
    As for ' pretty everyone disagrees with you', well if the arab oil producing antions wanted the conflict resolved, it would have decades ago. Enough said. After who else was allowed to fly on civil flights in the US on ?

    Well, no actually they couldn't have resolved the conflict. Israel has shown very clearly they aren't interested in peace, and still haven't taken up the Arab peace initiative, made several years ago.


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    #348
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    anymore wrote: »
    P.S Wes, Re : So? IsrSo? Israel being less worse than Iraq is not a defence, it is whataboutery.

    I'd say the difference between Israel and iraq is about 100,000 dead people. You may regard it ias ' Whataboutery' f you so choose.

    Oh, it is whataboutery of the highest order. What happens in Iraq does not excuse Israel. What Israel does is wrong. Other people doing something wrong, either worse, or less worse, doesn't change this.

    Secondly, you have already stated you support for Israel land theft and disregard of International law.


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    #349
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    anymore wrote: »
    Oh dont worry if you dont understand the reference to 'three green fields', its an irish thing.

    I'm fully conversant with it.

    For the analogy to hold true, the Palestinians would have to be content with the 'three green fields' they have and give up their claim to the fourth. I want to know what it is the Palestinians are supposed to currently have that they're supposed to be content with.


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    #350
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    whynotwhycanti wrote: »
    Simply not true. Former president Jimmy Carter has met with the leaders of the majority of the Arab nations who have said they recognise Israels right to exist but also that the Palestinians are entitled to their own state. He negotiated peace between Israel and Egypt and from reading his book and taking on board the great inside knowledge he has of the situation, it is fair to say that the majoirty of what you write and have been writing is absolute drivel. However, if, what he says is false, then what you wirte has some truth. I know whos opinion i would take on the sitaution.

    Anyway, his book was deemed controversal and met with the usual, Jimmy Carter is an anti-semite remarks.

    Is this the same Jimmy Carter who is undoubtedly the 20th Century's most incompetent US President ? The one who was an Aicraft Commander but couldnt even ensure that the helicopters choosen for the failed rescue bid of the US hostages held in Iran were capable of operating in sandy desert conditions ? The one who for years that he was rejected by the US electorate because they thought him incompetent ? That Jimmy Carter ?


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    #351
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    Nodin wrote: »
    I'm fully conversant with it.

    For the analogy to hold true, the Palestinians would have to be content with the 'three green fields' they have and give up their claim to the fourth. I want to know what it is the Palestinians are supposed to currently have that they're supposed to be content with.

    Do you mean that Hamas and Fatah have given back the Areas they were killing each other for control of ?


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    #352
    joesoap007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 152 ✭✭joesoap007


    anymore wrote: »
    Do you mean that Hamas and Fatah have given back the Areas they were killing each other for control of ?

    why beat around the bush? fatah backstabers..their leaders were killed by hamas.over 60 years of jews killing them and fatah sold out there country.its all in fisks book.read it.


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    #353
    The Saint
    Registered Users Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    anymore wrote: »
    Is this the same Jimmy Carter who is undoubtedly the 20th Century's most incompetent US President ? The one who was an Aicraft Commander but couldnt even ensure that the helicopters choosen for the failed rescue bid of the US hostages held in Iran were capable of operating in sandy desert conditions ? The one who for years that he was rejected by the US electorate because they thought him incompetent ? That Jimmy Carter ?
    I think he means the same Jimmy Carter who helped make peace between Israel and Egypt, but I think you knew that already.

    Anyway, back on topic:
    IDF order will enable mass deportation from West Bank

    A new military order aimed at preventing infiltration will come into force this week, enabling the deportation of tens of thousands of Palestinians from the West Bank, or their indictment on charges carrying prison terms of up to seven years.

    When the order comes into effect, tens of thousands of Palestinians will automatically become criminal offenders liable to be severely punished.

    Given the security authorities' actions over the past decade, the first Palestinians likely to be targeted under the new rules will be those whose ID cards bear home addresses in the Gaza Strip - people born in Gaza and their West Bank-born children - or those born in the West Bank or abroad who for various reasons lost their residency status. Also likely to be targeted are foreign-born spouses of Palestinians.
    ............................

    The IDF Spokesman's Office said in response, "The amendments to the order on preventing infiltration, signed by GOC Central Command, were issued as part of a series of manifests, orders and appointments in Judea and Samaria, in Hebrew and Arabic as required, and will be posted in the offices of the Civil Administration and military courts' defense attorneys in Judea and Samaria. The IDF is ready to implement the order, which is not intended to apply to Israelis, but to illegal sojourners in Judea and Samaria."

    Full Story


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    #354
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    anymore wrote: »
    Do you mean that Hamas and Fatah have given back the Areas they were killing each other for control of ?

    I'm sorry, I don't understand that answer in the context of your analogy.

    You compared the situation to Ireland, and - essentially - said that the state decided to be content with the 26 counties, and give up claim to the other 6. You implied that the Palestinians should do likewise. I want to know what 26 counties (or '3 green fields') the Palestinians are supposed to have, and thus be content with.


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    #355
    paulaa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    The Saint wrote: »
    I think he means the same Jimmy Carter who helped make peace between Israel and Egypt, but I think you knew that already.

    Anyway, back on topic:

    "IDF order will enable mass deportation from West Bank "

    I read this earlier this morning and can't believe that there are still people deluding themselves that Israel's policies are not apartheid and racist not to mention illegal.


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    #356
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    joesoap007 wrote: »
    why beat around the bush? fatah backstabers..their leaders were killed by hamas.over 60 years of jews killing them and fatah sold out there country.its all in fisks book.read it.
    Which one; he has a few. His latest is The Age of The warrior.


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    #357
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    The Saint wrote: »
    I think he means the same Jimmy Carter who helped make peace between Israel and Egypt, but I think you knew that already.

    Anyway, back on topic:

    To help me understand the ramificiations of this order, is it in anyway comparable to the mnner in which Sunni and Shiite militias have ethnically cleansed ' their areas' in cities like Bagdad ?


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    #358
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    Nodin wrote: »
    I'm sorry, I don't understand that answer in the context of your analogy.

    You compared the situation to Ireland, and - essentially - said that the state decided to be content with the 26 counties, and give up claim to the other 6. You implied that the Palestinians should do likewise. I want to know what 26 counties (or '3 green fields') the Palestinians are supposed to have, and thus be content with.

    I actually don't understand what point you are so laboriously trying to make !
    P.S for once it is my turn to ask a question you have ignored: are you the same Nodin who posts on P.ie ?


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    #359
    The Saint
    Registered Users Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    anymore wrote: »
    To help me understand the ramificiations of this order, is it in anyway comparable to the mnner in which Sunni and Shiite militias have ethnically cleansed ' their areas' in cities like Bagdad ?
    Really? :rolleyes:

    The two conflicts are of a completely different nature. It's not really on topic either.


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    #360
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    The Saint wrote: »
    Really? :rolleyes:

    The two conflicts are of a completely different nature. It's not really on topic either.
    I am surprised at your reaction !
    What are both conflicts about ? Well if i am to accept the claims of the Anti Israel coalition on this site; Israel is trying to cleanse areas under its control and establish its own power structures there. Which is exactly what the two militias in Irqaq are doing: so they are perfectly comparable and as there is a relationship or kinship of some some kind between some of the parties; i.e the two militias would appear to agree with the Palestininans about Israel, then the comparision is even more valid. Going further, Iran is assisting one of the warring militias in iraq and is also both financing and provididing logistcal and material supplies to at least one of the warring parties in palestine. So there is quite a connection between the two areas of conflict. Except of copurse if one is intent on promoting the aims of one of the respective groups !


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    #361
    The Saint
    Registered Users Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    anymore wrote: »
    I am surprised at your reaction !
    What are both conflicts about ? Well if i am to accept the claims of the Anti Israel coalition on this site; Israel is trying to cleanse areas under its control and establish its own power structures there. Which is exactly what the two militias in Irqaq are doing: so they are perfectly comparable and as there is a relationship or kinship of some some kind between some of the parties; i.e the two militias would appear to agree with the Palestininans about Israel, then the comparision is even more valid. Going further, Iran is assisting one of the warring militias in iraq and is also both financing and provididing logistcal and material supplies to at least one of the warring parties in palestine. So there is quite a connection between the two areas of conflict. Except of copurse if one is intent on promoting the aims of one of the respective groups !

    Please don't call me anti-Israeli. It's a rediculous pejorative.

    Anyway, as I stated above the two conflicts are of a fundamentally different nature. What is happening in Iraq is an intra-state conflict between rival ethnic groups engaged in a power struggle. All those involved are citizens of the state.

    By contrast, in the West Bank Israel is the occupying power which means it has obligations under IHL, primarily to act in the interests of those who it is occupying. I think it is quite clear that this is not what is happening. Instead it acts in the interests of those that it has transferred to the territory in violation of IHL.

    While what is happening in both areas is not very pleasant, they are not the same. I'm surprised you can't differentiate the two.


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