Israeli apartheid

wes

anymore wrote: »

I dont see too many people objecting to Iran's neo -colonial ventures in Palestine or Lebanon.

What are you talking about? They are supporting groups within those coutries. In the case of Lebanon, they are supporting there Shia co-Religionists (who are a democratically elected part of the Lebanese government), and in the case of Palestine, they are supporting the democratically elected government (whether people like it or not Hamas did win elections). They aren't occupying or colonizing any land.

anymore

wes wrote: »

What are you talking about? They are supporting groups within those coutries. In the case of Lebanon, they are supporting there Shia co-Religionists (who are a democratically elected part of the Lebanese government), and in the case of Palestine, they are supporting the democratically elected government (whether people like it or not Hamas did win elections). They aren't occupying or colonizing any land.

Iran is using Palestine just as it used Lebanon to fight a proxy war against Israel; Iraq has justified this position itself. It is financing and arming Hamas and apparently it is now smuggling, again, rockets and missiles to Hezbollah.

wes

anymore wrote: »

Iran is using Palestine just as it used Lebanon to fight a proxy war against Israel; Iraq has justified this position itself. It is financing and arming Hamas and apparently it is now smuggling, again, rockets and missiles to Hezbollah.

Both of those groups were already in conflict with Israel, before Iran got involved. What there doing is no different than the US funding Israel. What Iran is doing is not neo-colonialism, as per the definition given above, by meditraitor.

The only country engaged in any kind colonialism is Israel, who are on a daily basis stealing Palestinian land, and settling there citizens on it.

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

I dont see too many people objecting to Iran's neo -colonial ventures in Palestine or Lebanon.

Thats because they aren't occurring in this time/space continuum. I will add that they are of course wrong in alternate realities where they do take place.


Now, if you would please.......
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65399820&postcount=382

anymore

wes wrote: »

Both of those groups were already in conflict with Israel, before Iran got involved. What there doing is no different than the US funding Israel. What Iran is doing is not neo-colonialism, as per the definition given above, by meditraitor.

The only country engaged in any kind colonialism is Israel, who are on a daily basis stealing Palestinian land, and settling there citizens on it.

Perhaps both you and Medratior ought to actually read the definition.

wes

anymore wrote: »

Perhaps both you and Medratior ought to actually read the definition.

I take it you are referring to this bit:

In broader usage, neocolonialism may simply refer to the involvement of powerful countries in the affairs of less powerful countries; this is especially relevant in modern Latin America. In this sense, neocolonialism implies a form of contemporary, economic imperialism: that powerful nations behave like colonial powers of imperialism, and that this behavior is likened to colonialism in a post-colonial world.

I fail to see how Iran is economically dominating either Lebanon or Palestine. Now Israel is actually dominating the Palestinian economy, as well as there land, air space, sea access etc, like the old colonial powers.

anymore

wes wrote: »

I take it you are referring to this bit:



I fail to see how Iran is economically dominating either Lebanon or Palestine. Now Israel is actually dominating the Palestinian economy, as well as there land, air space, sea access etc, like the old colonial powers.

If you wish to engage in word games, then chew on this a while :

" ..... If it is certainly right to ask whether the same imperialist and ideological imperatives drove U.S. neoliberal grand strategy in Vietnam during the Cold War and in Iraq in the aftermath of 9/11, is it fair to reinterpret these two military commitment in light of a similar (neo-colonialist) mindset among American decision-makers when dealing with non-Western, non-White, undemocratic ?Third World? "

wes

anymore wrote: »

If you wish to engage in word games, then chew on this a while :

" ..... If it is certainly right to ask whether the same imperialist and ideological imperatives drove U.S. neoliberal grand strategy in Vietnam during the Cold War and in Iraq in the aftermath of 9/11, is it fair to reinterpret these two military commitment in light of a similar (neo-colonialist) mindset among American decision-makers when dealing with non-Western, non-White, undemocratic ?Third World? "

In both those cases, the US invaded both those countries, which Iran hasn't done in 200 years (invade a country). So once again you are wrong, and the topic isn't about the US, or even Iran for that matter.

So any back to the topic at hand. Israel is actually invading Palestinains land on a daily basis and settling it, in a modern day colonial enterprise.

Also, look like Israel will start illegal demolitions in occupied East Jerusalem again:

From Ynet News:
Barkat wants to renew razing orders in east Jerusalem

Ynet learns Jerusalem mayor wants police to carry out demolition orders issued in October

Ronen Medzini

Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat demanded recently that the city's police force renew the razing of illegal structures in east Jerusalem on which demolition orders have been issued, Ynet learned Tuesday.

Click here for full article

All, the while illegal colonies are allowed to flourish in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Typical of an Apartheid state imho.

anymore

wes wrote: »

In both those cases, the US invaded both those countries, which Iran hasn't done in 200 years (invade a country). So once again you are wrong, and the topic isn't about the US, or even Iran for that matter.

So any back to the topic at hand. Israel is actually invading Palestinains land on a daily basis and settling it, in a modern day colonial enterprise.

Also, look like Israel will start illegal demolitions in occupied East Jerusalem again:



All, the while illegal colonies are allowed to flourish in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Typical of an Apartheid state imho.

Please dont tell me that your history is so poor !
The US did not invade Vietnam ! It wass invited to send bring in advisers etc by the Government of South Vietnam.

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

It wass invited to send bring in advisers etc by the Government of South Vietnam.

A dictatorship with no mandate, set up after a refusal to hold democratic elections (because the other side would win, and sure wheres the fun in that).


Also....
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65399820&postcount=382

Nodin

....more land seizures and slow-drip ethnic cleansing.

I met Mahmoud Salim on his way from Beit Ijza to the centremost village of Biddu to pay his electricity bill.
His house is located in a security zone for the barrier, which passes 15 metres away. His farmland lies on the other side and he has been told by the army he cannot "put one stone on another" in what's left of his garden.
He remembered the day in 2004 when Israeli troops first came to secure the area.
"People wanted to defend their land, but troops opened fire as though faced by another army. My son was the first one killed, though he wasn't involved in the demonstrations."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8273995.stm

It's hard to see how people stay sane when faced with this kind of thing, let alone refrain from violence.

The Saint

anymore wrote: »

Please dont tell me that your history is so poor !
The US did not invade Vietnam ! It wass invited to send bring in advisers etc by the Government of South Vietnam.

Were the 500,000 American troops invited too? Did they RSVP? Were they invited to Laos and Cambodia?

wes

anymore wrote: »

Please dont tell me that your history is so poor !
The US did not invade Vietnam ! It wass invited to send bring in advisers etc by the Government of South Vietnam.

Sure, just like the Soviet Union was invited into Afghanistan...

Of course they invaded, and of course they would claim it wasn't one. The US always pulls silly crap like that, but it doesn't matter either way, as its completely off topic, which is something you have repeatedly tried to do in this thread.

Anyway back to the actual topic:

Nodin wrote: »

....more land seizures and slow-drip ethnic cleansing.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8273995.stm

It's hard to see how people stay sane when faced with this kind of thing, let alone refrain from violence.

Israel actions are not short of appaling, and have nothing to with security, and everything to do with humiliation of Palestinians, and generally making the lives hell, to achieve there absurd dream of a greater Israel.

joesoap007

anymore wrote: »

The wonderful thing about forums like this is that everyone gets to post their facts and figures, so use the opportunity to inform of us of any facts you feel are relevant.

was just askin him to add the bits he forgot like the arab death toll and the likes of lehi an the stern gang also in bed with the nazis in 1940.

whats wonderful is. we all know so much about the dirty murdering bunch of jews that have took over palestine an renamed it becaues its gods word.even tho there book was wrote by a man,,yous can twist away go off topic cry and all the rest but yous will always be wrong


FREE PALESTINE

Nodin

joesoap007 wrote: »

...... we all know so much about the dirty murdering bunch of jews

I have about as much time for this crap as I do for similar comments about Arabs, which is to say none. You devalue the Palestinian cause, and act to it's detriment.

joesoap007

Nodin wrote: »

I have about as much time for this crap as I do for similar comments about Arabs, which is to say none. You devalue the Palestinian cause, and act to it's detriment.

but thats what they ,why beat around the bush about it?just becaues they jews,if i were to say the same about nazis theres no problem,but there both a bunch of murdering scumbags.cant say anything about jews?fcuk that. there no better that me or anyone else

wes

joesoap007 wrote: »

but thats what they ,why beat around the bush about it?just becaues they jews,if i were to say the same about nazis theres no problem,but there both a bunch of murdering scumbags.cant say anything about jews?fcuk that. there no better that me or anyone else

Zionists don't represent all Jews. Plenty of Jews are against the actions of Israel, and don't like being associated with there actions.

dlofnep

joesoap007 wrote: »

but thats what they ,why beat around the bush about it?just becaues they jews,if i were to say the same about nazis theres no problem,but there both a bunch of murdering scumbags.cant say anything about jews?fcuk that. there no better that me or anyone else

No, you can't call Jews a bunch of murdering scumbags. That is utter bigotry, and is actually antisemitic (using the word in it's correct context).

You can call the actions of the Israeli Government that of "murdering scumbags". But you label all Jews as murdering scumbags is disgraceful, and does not lend itself well to the Palestinian cause, or any cause for that matter.

Jewish people are reasoned, friendly and no different than any other human being. You don't treat people based on the most extreme members in their society. That's just downright wrong.

Mahatma coat

wes wrote: »

Zionists don't represent all Jews. Plenty of Jews are against the actions of Israel, and don't like being associated with there actions.

if that 'Plenty' was really any kind of decent number then by default of them being 'The only Democracy in the ME' we wouldnt be having these debates.

If they are a Democracy then it seems that the overwhelming majority of Israelis Support this kind of carryon

Irlandese

wes wrote: »

Zionists don't represent all Jews. Plenty of Jews are against the actions of Israel, and don't like being associated with there actions.

Not only that, I believe the only way forward is for much closer collaboration between the secular jewish organisations, Israeli Peace movements and moderate, especially secular arab movements, to begin to find and work from common ground.
I have over thirty years interest and experience in pro-palestinian and anti-zionist activities. I have grown to believe in the absolute necessity to provide fully for the territorial security of a democratic Israeli state, as a necessary pre-condition for lasting peace in that region.
People who demonise Israel and idealise Arab interests, whatever they may be, do little service to the palestinians in refugee camps or in the ghettos of the Gaza Strip or West Bank.
Some common sense and wisdom, please?

joesoap007

dlofnep wrote: »

No, you can't call Jews a bunch of murdering scumbags. That is utter bigotry, and is actually antisemitic (using the word in it's correct context).

You can call the actions of the Israeli Government that of "murdering scumbags". But you label all Jews as murdering scumbags is disgraceful, and does not lend itself well to the Palestinian cause, or any cause for that matter.

Jewish people are reasoned, friendly and no different than any other human being. You don't treat people based on the most extreme members in their society. That's just downright wrong.

did i say all of them are scumbags? no just a bunch of them.dont be trying to turn it in bigotry anti semitic..israelis when it suits them screem for zionists (09 gaza war) they now point the finger at Zionists its all their doing we didn want this.an again only a few months were screamin for a second war in gaza..there all the same when it suits them.,,,weres all the jews on this site?..lets have yous come on.show me the light.all they have is the words in a book that was wrote by a MAN.not god

Irlandese

wes wrote: »

There is no excuse for not granting Palestinians rights. The reason the Palestinian engage in violence is due to denial of rights. Supporting denial of there rights, perpetuates violence.

Also, Israel generally screams security as a excuses to steal land. How exactly is taking more land make Israel safer? It hard to believe there security claims are legitimate, when they use security claims to steal more land, and seeing as it is a conflict over land, there activity perpetuates violence.

Also, Why should the Palestinains then grant any rights to colonists or members of the IDF, who regularly kill innocent Palestinains (they even bomb schools and use Human shields), albeit with better weaponary?!? Sorry, IMHO the IDF are not better than Hamas terrorists.

**EDIT**
Just to add, I do agree with some of the other stuff you say above, but I think the denial of rights to Palestinians only make things worse, and Israel less secure.
**END EDIT**

Sorry I am late getting back to you on this.
I am against very many IDF actions and in particular the wall and the stealing of homes and lands from defenceless palestinians. I have written here before about the attrocities suffered by palestinians, but could also write about that appalling scoundrel, the late Yasser Arafat and his Fatah mafia or the Islamic extremism and misogony of Hamas etc. etc.
We have to start from first principles to get at a peace between peoples.
I have worked in war zones and in post war peace and reconciliation and reconstruction work and know just how hard it always is. But, anger and retaliation and forcing people into defensive positions does not help the refugees.

Irlandese

joesoap007 wrote: »

did i say all of them are scumbags? no just a bunch of them.dont be trying to turn it in bigotry anti semitic..israelis when it suits them screem for zionists (09 gaza war) they now point the finger at Zionists its all their doing we didn want this.an again only a few months were screamin for a second war in gaza..there all the same when it suits them.,,,weres all the jews on this site?..lets have yous come on.show me the light.all they have is the words in a book that was wrote by a MAN.not god

Are you having us all on, Joe?
You could be on something? Or a zionist trying to derail the arguaments with extremism gone mad? Or really just a little whimsicle and trying to make a long day a little lighter? Or plain barking mad? Which or is there another alternative? Please tell us. Go on, ya will ya will ya will !

joesoap007

Irlandese wrote: »

Are you having us all on, Joe?
You could be on something? Or a zionist trying to derail the arguaments with extremism gone mad? Or really just a little whimsicle and trying to make a long day a little lighter? Or plain barking mad? Which or is there another alternative? Please tell us. Go on, ya will ya will ya will !

none of the above

iv my eyes open.i can see whats going on in palestine.can you?
yous tippy toe around the matter.why cant yous call a spade a spade.
there just like nazis bullys.

Irlandese

joesoap007 wrote: »

none of the above

iv my eyes open.i can see whats going on in palestine.can you?
yous tippy toe around the matter.why cant yous call a spade a spade.
there just like nazis bullys.

Have to go, man.
I know the area quite well.
Have you been? I don't want to belittle what might just be a sincere interest in justice for palestinians, but you are doing a lot to harm their arguament here on the thread, whether you intend to or not? Where do you stand on the Fatah/Hamas split?
What do you think about Arafat stealing all the aid money to pay for his mafia gangs, his token wife in Paris luxury and his boyfriend bodyguard who everyone thought slept on the doorsill, outside his bedroom door?

joesoap007

Irlandese wrote: »

Have to go, man.
I know the area quite well.
Have you been? I don't want to belittle what might just be a sincere interest in justice for palestinians, but you are doing a lot to harm their arguament here on the thread, whether you intend to or not? Where do you stand on the Fatah/Hamas split?
What do you think about Arafat stealing all the aid money to pay for his mafia gangs, his token wife in Paris luxury and his boyfriend bodyguard who everyone thought slept on the doorsill, outside his bedroom door?

Fatah/Hamas civil war was bloody an cost there own people dear.
but most civil wars are.
arafat was a joke a sellout.iv said this before
hamas are far from perfect but were voted in an open for talks but israel wont.why because their big bad terrorists or cuz they cant buy them.

Irlandese

joesoap007 wrote: »

Fatah/Hamas civil war was bloody an cost there own people dear.
but most civil wars are.
arafat was a joke a sellout.iv said this before
hamas are far from perfect but were voted in an open for talks but israel wont.why because their big bad terrorists or cuz they cant buy them.

Ok, standard question:
" Let us please hear a short list of constructive specific and logical steps,
to be taken by which key actors, that are reasonably likely to have broad approval
and a chance of actually working, to begin to put this situation on a better footing.
We are waiting.................................
No rush.................................
Go on, ya will, ya will, ya will.....
Please?................................
No worries........
It is a lot harder than invective and bad language, isn't it?
Try to be part of the solution, please.........please.

joesoap007

Irlandese wrote: »

Ok, standard question:
" Let us please hear a short list of constructive specific and logical steps,
to be taken by which key actors, that are reasonably likely to have broad approval
and a chance of actually working, to begin to put this situation on a better footing.
We are waiting.................................
No rush.................................
Go on, ya will, ya will, ya will.....
Please?................................
No worries........
It is a lot harder than invective and bad language, isn't it?
Try to be part of the solution, please.........please.

are you for real
solutions to peace?

joesoap007

im waiting?
which situation would you like me to put on a better footing.
be a little clearer would you old boy
theres a good chap

Irlandese

joesoap007 wrote: »

im waiting?
which situation would you like me to put on a better footing.
be a little clearer would you old boy
theres a good chap

It looks as if I was right, eh, friend?
You could have started anywhere.
There are a lot of secular Israelis writing with positive ideas.
But, here, um....ah....we are still waiting................