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Israeli apartheid
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Sorry I am late getting back to you on this.
I am against very many IDF actions and in particular the wall and the stealing of homes and lands from defenceless palestinians. I have written here before about the attrocities suffered by palestinians, but could also write about that appalling scoundrel, the late Yasser Arafat and his Fatah mafia or the Islamic extremism and misogony of Hamas etc. etc.
We have to start from first principles to get at a peace between peoples.
I have worked in war zones and in post war peace and reconciliation and reconstruction work and know just how hard it always is. But, anger and retaliation and forcing people into defensive positions does not help the refugees.
I do agree Israel needs security, but that work both ways. They can't keep taking land and expect security. Its simply irrational of Israel to expect security, when they are engaged in aggression themselves.
The Palestinians needs to stop violence, but at the same time, Israel needs to engage in a complete settlement freeze, and not the fake one they are currently engaged in. Also, both sides need to accept that some extremists will engage in various acts of provocation to derail any peace process, and not over react, when it inevitably happens.0 -
Mahatma coat wrote: »if that 'Plenty' was really any kind of decent number then by default of them being 'The only Democracy in the ME' we wouldnt be having these debates.
If they are a Democracy then it seems that the overwhelming majority of Israelis Support this kind of carryon
Well, not all Jews live in Israel. In fact the most Jews don't live in Israel last time I checked.0 -
I do agree Israel needs security, but that work both ways. They can't keep taking land and expect security. Its simply irrational of Israel to expect security, when they are engaged in aggression themselves.
The Palestinians needs to stop violence, but at the same time, Israel needs to engage in a complete settlement freeze, and not the fake one they are currently engaged in. Also, both sides need to accept that some extremists will engage in various acts of provocation to derail any peace process, and not over react, when it inevitably happens.
Israel engages in aggression to defend itself, Palestinian/Iran groups enegage in aggression in order to provoke Israel and to drum up support for itself. Unfrtunately the fact that the Palestinians turned upon themselves as soon as Israel vacated areas previousily under their control means that Palestine as an entity no longer exists ! We now have Fatahland and Hamasland.0 -
Well, not all Jews live in Israel. In fact the most Jews don't live in Israel last time I checked.
It is hardly a surprise that all Jews dont live in Israel given that Jew are not a racial group - for that matter not all Irish live in Ireland - quite the opposite in fact. The fact that Israeli Jews are not a racial group does make the accusation of 'aparthied 'some what inaccurate, but then again it is a relatively small issue given the volume of propoganda that tends to be directed against Israel.0 -
Please explain to me how building settlements and conducting house demolitions and evictions constitute a form of defence?Israel engages in aggression to defend itself.
Jewish Israelis can be considered an ethnic group despite the different racial backgrounds of it population. I fail to see how the accusation of apartheid, especially pertaining to the West Bank and East Jerusalem is inaccurate.It is hardly a surprise that all Jews dont live in Israel given that Jew are not a racial group - for that matter not all Irish live in Ireland - quite the opposite in fact. The fact that Israeli Jews are not a racial group does make the accusation of 'aparthied 'some what inaccurate, but then again it is a relatively small issue given the volume of propoganda that tends to be directed against Israel.
Would you care to address the issues raised in these documents related to planning, land confiscation, evictions and demolitions in East Jerusalem and it's environs? Are these policies not discriminatory against Palestinians in favour of Jewish Israelis?
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_planning_crisis_east_jerusalem_april_2009_english.pdf
http://www.btselem.org/english/Jerusalem/Infrastructure_and_Services.asp
http://www.btselem.org/english/Jerusalem/Discriminating_Policy.asp
http://www.maan-ctr.org/pdfs/JerusalemReport4Web.pdf0 -
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Israel engages in aggression to defend itself, Palestinian/Iran groups enegage in aggression in order to provoke Israel and to drum up support for itself. Unfrtunately the fact that the Palestinians turned upon themselves as soon as Israel vacated areas previousily under their control means that Palestine as an entity no longer exists ! We now have Fatahland and Hamasland.
You talking utter nonsense. Israel engage in aggression to steal land, which is what they have always done and it is covered in the world media in great detail. What your saying above is absurd and demonstrably false. We are talking about a conflict over land, taking more land is aggression and not self defence, especially as it exacerbates the conflict.0 -
It is hardly a surprise that all Jews dont live in Israel given that Jew are not a racial group - for that matter not all Irish live in Ireland - quite the opposite in fact. The fact that Israeli Jews are not a racial group does make the accusation of 'aparthied 'some what inaccurate, but then again it is a relatively small issue given the volume of propoganda that tends to be directed against Israel.
Jews can be considered a racial group and Israel laws treat them as one. Also, Apartheid means "seperation", so it still applies even if done on Relgious grounds.0 -
Please explain to me how building settlements and conducting house demolitions and evictions constitute a form of defence?
Jewish Israelis can be considered an ethnic group despite the different racial backgrounds of it population. I fail to see how the accusation of apartheid, especially pertaining to the West Bank and East Jerusalem is inaccurate.
Would you care to address the issues raised in these documents related to planning, land confiscation, evictions and demolitions in East Jerusalem and it's environs? Are these policies not discriminatory against Palestinians in favour of Jewish Israelis?
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_planning_crisis_east_jerusalem_april_2009_english.pdf
http://www.btselem.org/english/Jerusalem/Infrastructure_and_Services.asp
http://www.btselem.org/english/Jerusalem/Discriminating_Policy.asp
http://www.maan-ctr.org/pdfs/JerusalemReport4Web.pdf
Building settlements is not an act of agression, firing rockets at innocent civilians is. These settelements can be be transferred in the event of a settlement. Israel has a record of forcibly evacuating Jewish settlers from settlements in the past as you well know.
Some, though not myself, might suggest that some of these settlements constitute a buffer zone between Israel and the militants of Hamas land and Fatahland.
I repeat the Jews of Israel are not an homogenous racial group. That is a simple fact. The accusation of aparthied is fanciful nonsense.
If you want comment on any documents, I suggest you at least do the courtesy of summarising them on your posts.0 -
Then by that definition it is Palestine which is now subject to self imposed aparthied by the militants of Hamas/Iran and the militants of Fatah; as we said before, Palestine no longer exists, it has been replaced by Hamasland and Fatahland.Jews can be considered a racial group and Israel laws treat them as one. Also, Apartheid means "seperation", so it still applies even if done on Relgious grounds.0 -
Building settlements is not an act of agression, .
Your logic is mind boggling. Forcefully evicting people from their homes, which is illegal under international law is not a form of agression. I won't even go into other undertakings that would without doubt be considered acts of agression as your view on the illegal settlement alone simply shows your stubborn and twisted view on this situation.
Of course firing rockets is an act of agression, noone here has ever said it wasn't. They have however tried to establish why rockets are fired, and attempt to decipher a real reason unlike yourself who believe it is simply beaucse they want Israel wiped off the map.
Also, you are the only one who refer to Palestine as Hamasland and fatahland, well done, so witty and intelligient.0 -
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Then by that definition it is Palestine which is now subject to self imposed aparthied by the militants of Hamas/Iran and the militants of Fatah; as we said before, Palestine no longer exists, it has been replaced by Hamasland and Fatahland.
What hell are you talking about? Seriously, your not making any sense.
There is no Palestinian state, the Israelis have done there damndest to make sure there never is one. Israel controls all the land, and no one else.
The conflict between Hamas and Fatah is not Apartheid. Now is certainly isn't helping things, but to call it Apartheid is a simple tactic to deflect the very real Apartheid Israel is engaged in.
Also, Israel is enforcing the seperation between Gaza, and the West Bank/East Jerusalem. which you can see from there ethnic cleansing order posted about earlier in the thread.
Anyway, none of this change the fact of Israel constant aggression, with there land theft.0 -
This is the exception rather than the rule unfortunately. There has been little or no evacution of outposts, which are even illegal under Israeli law, which Israel is obliged to do under the Roadmap.Building settlements is not an act of agression, firing rockets at innocent civilians is. These settelements can be be transferred in the event of a settlement. Israel has a record of forcibly evacuating Jewish settlers from settlements in the past as you well know.
Supreme Court chief: Why won't state demolish illegal outposts?
Barak okays new West Bank settlement in return for evacuation of illegal outpost
High Court orders Israel to speed up outpost demolitions
On W. Bank tour, Landau calls for legalizing two outposts
State tells court to butt out
The idea of putting civilians into a buffer zone to protect civilians is laughable.Some, though not myself, might suggest that some of these settlements constitute a buffer zone between Israel and the militants of Hamas land and Fatahland.
As I stated before, they can be considered a national ethnic group. They are Jewish and they are Israelis. Their racial background has nothing to do with this. Would you state that if the US occupied Canada and implemented these policies that it could not considered apartheid as Americans aren't a monolitic eithnic group? It's a cop out.I repeat the Jews of Israel are not an homogenous racial group. That is a simple fact. The accusation of aparthied is fanciful nonsense..
I'm not going to bother summarising them as they contain a lot of relevant information.If you want comment on any documents, I suggest you at least do the courtesy of summarising them on your posts.
Executive Summary of OCHA Report.In 1967, Israel occupied the West Bank and unilaterally annexed to its territory 70.5 km2 of the occupied area, which were subsequently
integrated within the Jerusalem municipality. This annexation contravenes international law and was not recognized by the UN Security Council or UN
member states.2 Irrespective of Israel’s annexation, the area of East Jerusalem continues to form part of the occupied Palestinian territory (oPt) and its Palestinian residents remain protected by international humanitarian law (IHL). Throughout its occupation, Israel has significantly restricted Palestinian development in East Jerusalem. Over one third of East Jerusalem has been expropriated for the construction of Israeli settlements, despite the IHL prohibition on the transfer of civilians to the occupied territory. Only
13 percent of the annexed area is currently zoned by the Israeli authorities for Palestinian construction, within which Palestinians have the possibility
of obtaining a building permit. However, much of this land is already built-up, the permitted construction density is limited and the application process is complicated and expensive.
Moreover, the number of permits granted per year to Palestinians does not meet the existing demand for housing. The gap between housing needs based on population growth and the legally permitted construction is estimated to be at least 1,100 housing units per year. As a result, Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem find themselves confronting a serious housing shortage caused by Israel’s failure to provide Palestinian neighbourhoods with adequate planning. This shortage has been exacerbated in recent years by the reported influx of Palestinian Jerusalemites into the city due to Barrier construction and the threat of losing residency status in the city if they move outside the Israeli-defined municipal borders of Jerusalem. Because of the difficulties Palestinians encounter trying to obtain building permits from the Israeli authorities, and due to the lack of feasible alternatives, many Palestinians risk building on their land without a permit in order to meet their
housing needs. At least 28 percent of all Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem have been built in violation of Israeli zoning requirements. Based on population
figures, this percentage is equivalent to some 60,000 Palestinians in East Jerusalem, who are at risk of having their homes demolished by the Israeli
authorities. This is a conservative estimate and the actual figures may be much higher.
Continuing demolitions in East Jerusalem Since 1967, the Israeli authorities have demolished thousands of Palestinian-owned structures in the oPt, including an estimated 2,000 houses in East Jerusalem. According to official statistics, between 2000 and 2008 alone, the Israeli authorities demolished more than 670 Palestinian-owned structures in East Jerusalem due to lack of permit. Of these, approximately 90 structures were demolished in 2008, displacing some 400 Palestinians. In 2009, OCHA has recorded the demolition of 19 Palestinian-owned structures in East Jerusalem, including 11 inhabited residential structures, due to lack of permit. As a result, some 109 Palestinians, including 60 children, were displaced. Of particular concern are areas in East Jerusalem that face the prospect of mass demolitions. For
example, the execution of pending demolition orders in the Tel al Foul area in Beit Hanina, Khalet el ‘Ein in At Tur, Al Abbasiya in Ath Thuri,
and Wadi Yasul between Jabal al Mukabbir and Ath Thuri, affect a combined total of more than 3,600 persons.3 In the Bustan area of the Silwan
neighbourhood, which has received considerable media attention, some 90 houses are threatened with demolition, potentially displacing a further 1,000 Palestinians. In addition, some 500 residents of the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood potentially face eviction as their homes are located on land whose ownership is contested by Israeli settlers.
Similar policy in Area C
Israel’s policy of home demolitions is not limited to East Jerusalem. Each year, hundreds of Palestinianowned structures are demolished in Area C of the West Bank for lack of a building permit. Thousands of other Palestinian families in Area C face the constant threat of demolition due to outstanding
demolition orders. In spite of a number of differences, the reality in both East Jerusalem and Area C is quite similar: Palestinian construction in most of these areas is severely limited, Palestinian families face ongoing displacement, and there is reduced space for the development of Palestinian
communities.
Impact on the Palestinian population
The demolition of houses causes significant hardship for the people affected. Not only must displaced families overcome the psychological distress of
losing their homes, they are usually burdened with debt after the loss of their primary asset, the demolished house, and, if they have retained a lawyer, the payment of legal fees. In the case of East Jerusalem, families also face heavy fines imposed by the Jerusalem municipality and, in some cases, prison sentences. Children, who represent over 50 percent of the Palestinian population, are particularly affected by the displacement of their families. In the immediate aftermath of demolitions, children often face gaps in education and limited access to basic services, such as health care and clean water. Longer-term impacts include symptoms of psychological distress and diminished academic performance. Highlighting the damaging impact of Israel’s home demolitions and evictions in East Jerusalem, the UN Special Coordinator’s Office noted in March 2009 that “(t)hese actions harm ordinary Palestinians, heighten tensions in the city, undermine efforts to build trust
and promote negotiations, and are contrary to international law and Israel’s commitments.”4
Recent events indicate that the Jerusalem municipality will maintain, and possibly accelerate, its policy on house demolition.5
The way forward
As the occupying power, Israel must ensure that the basic needs of the Palestinian population of the occupied territory are met. In order to meet
this obligation, the Israeli authorities should immediately freeze all pending demolition orders and undertake planning that will address the Palestinian housing crisis in East Jerusalem. At the same time, support should be directed towards organizations and agencies working to meet the immediate and longer-term needs of families displaced as a result of demolitions. In addition,
assistance is required for Palestinian communities that are attempting to challenge the restrictions in the current system through legal aid, planning
initiatives and advocacy.
From B'TselemNeglect of infrastructure and services in Palestinian neighborhoods
East Jerusalem residents are required to pay taxes like all city residents. However, they do not receive the same services. The Jerusalem Municipality has continuously failed to invest significantly for infrastructure and services (such as roads, sidewalks, water and sewage systems) in Jerusalem's Palestinian neighborhoods. Since the annexation of Jerusalem, the Municipality has built almost no new school, public building, or medical clinic for Palestinians. The lion's share of investment has been dedicated to the city's Jewish areas.
Less than 10 percent of the Municipality's development budget for 1999 was allocated for Palestinian neighborhoods, although the population there represents a third of the city's residents. The lack of investment has left infrastructure in East Jerusalem in a deteriorated state:
Entire Palestinian neighborhoods are not connected to a sewage system and do not have paved roads or sidewalks;
Almost 90 percent of the sewage pipes, roads, and sidewalks are found in West Jerusalem;
West Jerusalem has 1,000 public parks, East Jerusalem has 45;
West Jerusalem has 34 swimming pools, East Jerusalem has three;
West Jerusalem has 26 libraries, East Jerusalem has two;
West Jerusalem has 531 sports facilities, East Jerusalem has 33.
Israel's treatment of Palestinian residents is shameful and violates their dignity. Such is the case at the East Jerusalem office of the Ministry of the Interior. The caseload is large, and processing takes months. The number of personnel receiving applicants is insufficient. Residents have to wait in line from the middle of the night until morning to enter the office, and many have to leave in the afternoon without having gained entry. On more than one occasion, persons who entered the office were sent home without being attended to.
The residents wait on the street, in front of the gate, with no protection against sun or rain. They wait in cramped conditions between two iron poles. Most of the time, the line is long and residents have to wait on the sidewalk or in the road. Guards open the gate two or three times in the morning to allow a few dozen people to enter. More than once, complaints have been made against the guards for degrading and arrogant treatment, for violent behavior, and for punishing those in line by closing the office in response to complaints by the residents.
These phenomena do not appear in the office in West Jerusalem where individuals can directly enter the reception hall which contains sufficient seating and where numbers are given, allowing people to leave for an hour or so before their number is called.
Treatment of the applicants is also different, as the following shows:
The forms in the East Jerusalem office are written only in Hebrew, although the population is Arabic-speaking. Consequently, the many applicants who do not read Hebrew depend on the good will of the clerks to explain what documents have to be brought, or they have to leave the office and pay for a translation of the document, and then wait again in line.
In the West Jerusalem office, the public can wait in comfort in the hall and even use the cafeteria in the building and drink from the water coolers, while in East Jerusalem, persons wanting to enter have to wait in undignified conditions in long, cramped lines for hours outside the building. There is no elevator or special access for the disabled or for strollers.
In West Jerusalem, it is possible to obtain services (for example, to renew passports) by mail. The East Jerusalem office does not offer this option.
In West Jerusalem, the office is open in the afternoon, application forms are available at the entrance, clerks are available to provide information, and signs directing the public are situated in the entryway. These amenities are not provided in the East Jerusalem office.
On Monday, 25.9.00, a hearing was held at the High Court of Justice on the petition filed by the Association for Civil Rights in Israel and the Jerusalem Center for Social and Economic Rights, concerning the conditions and regulations at the Population Registry Office of the Ministry of the Interior in East Jerusalem.
The HCJ ordered state representatives to meet with representatives of the petitioners and to find a solution to the problems raised in the petition.
Due to pressure exerted by the judges, immediate improvement of a few main problems was agreed upon. However, a solution to all the problems was not agreed upon.
On 6 June 2001, the High Court of Justice dismissed the petition even though the Ministry of the Interior did not meet its commitments and despite the fact that most of the conditions and procedures at the Ministry of the Interior remained unchanged.
In 2003, another petition was filed on this issue. The petition was file by a private individual, Rofa Jabara, who was represented by Attorney Yosef Schwartz. In December 2003, in the framework of the petition, the High Court of Justice ruled that the physical conditions at the East Jerusalem office were extremely unreasonable and that the public had the right to receive services under proper conditions and within a reasonable period of time. The High Court ordered the Ministry of the Interior to move the office to a new structure in the Mamoniya complex by July 2005. The Court also ordered the Ministry to increase the number of clerks in the office from twenty-nine to forty-two, and to extend the hours it is open to the public.
From B'Tselem
The last one is very long so and won't open for me now but I suggest you read the executive summary to get an idea of what it says.Policy of discrimination in planning, building and land expropriation
The planning policy in East Jerusalem since its annexation in 1967 is affected by political considerations and infected by systematic discrimination against the Palestinians living there. While extensive building and enormous budget allocations have been the rule in Jewish neighborhoods, the Israeli government has choked development and building for the Palestinian population.
In June 1967, Israel annexed 70,500 dunams [4 dunams = 1 acre] of East Jerusalem and the West Bank and incorporated them within Jerusalem’s borders. From this annexed territory, Israel has expropriated about one-third of the annexed territory – 24,000 dunams – most of it privately-owned Arab property. Israel used this expropriated land for residential construction. By the end of 2001, 46,978 housing units had been built for Jews on this land, but not one unit for Palestinians who constitute one-third of the city’s population.
At the same time, Israel choked construction in Palestinian neighborhoods and restricted new construction. Immediately upon annexation of East Jerusalem, and contrary to its actions in the rest of the West Bank, the Jordanian outline plans were nullified, thus creating a planning void that took a long time to fill. In the first decade following annexation, construction was only allowed ad hoc in a few areas in East Jerusalem.
Much land surrounding Palestinian villages and neighborhoods was expropriated to build Jewish neighborhoods, leaving no room for Palestinian construction. The Jerusalem Municipality did not establish outline plans for the Palestinian areas. The few plans that were approved were primarily intended to prevent new construction by declaring broad expanses of land as “green areas,” restricting the building percentages on the lots, and setting narrow borders.
In the early 1980s, the Jerusalem Municipality began to prepare outline plans for all the Palestinian neighborhoods. Most of the plans are complete, and others are in the process of planning and approval. The most conspicuous feature of these outline plans is the vast amount (some 40 percent) of area that is designated as “open landscape areas,” on which building is forbidden. In the plans that were approved prior to the end of 1999, only some 5,100 dunams (constituting 11 percent of the land in East Jerusalem, after the expropriation of 24,000 dunams mentioned above) were available for construction for the Palestinian population. As is the case with the demarcation plans existing in the West Bank, construction is allowed primarily in built-up areas.
The consequences of this policy are evident in Palestinian neighborhoods. For example, at the end of 2002, housing density in Arab neighborhoods was almost twice that of Jewish neighborhoods, 11.9 square meters per person compared to 23.8 square meters per person. The existing situation has forced many Palestinians to build homes without first obtaining a building permit. The Jerusalem Municipality enforces the building laws on Palestinians much more stringently than on the Jewish population, even though the number of violations is much higher in the Jewish neighborhoods.0 -
No arguament from me there, friend.I do agree Israel needs security, but that work both ways. They can't keep taking land and expect security. Its simply irrational of Israel to expect security, when they are engaged in aggression themselves.
The Palestinians needs to stop violence, but at the same time, Israel needs to engage in a complete settlement freeze, and not the fake one they are currently engaged in. Also, both sides need to accept that some extremists will engage in various acts of provocation to derail any peace process, and not over react, when it inevitably happens.0 -
I post long quotes myself, usually edited.This is the exception rather than the rule unfortunately. There has been little or no evacution of outposts, which are even illegal under Israeli law, which Israel is obliged to do under the Roadmap.
Supreme Court chief: Why won't state demolish illegal outposts?
Barak okays new West Bank settlement in return for evacuation of illegal outpost
High Court orders Israel to speed up outpost demolitions
On W. Bank tour, Landau calls for legalizing two outposts
State tells court to butt out
The idea of putting civilians into a buffer zone to protect civilians is laughable.
As I stated before, they can be considered a national ethnic group. They are Jewish and they are Israelis. Their racial background has nothing to do with this. Would you state that if the US occupied Canada and implemented these policies that it could not considered apartheid as Americans aren't a monolitic eithnic group? It's a cop out.
I'm not going to bother summarising them as they contain a lot of relevant information.
Executive Summary of OCHA Report.
From B'Tselem
From B'Tselem
The last one is very long so and won't open for me now but I suggest you read the executive summary to get an idea of what it says.
Posting three long quotes after three short ones and five links, seems more than suspisciously like trying to kill thread discussion through boredom.
Or is it just laziness or lack of new ideas??
Am I right??0 -
I post long quotes myself, usually edited.
Posting three long quotes after three short ones and five links, seems more than suspisciously like trying to kill thread discussion through boredom.
Or is it just laziness or lack of new ideas??
Am I right??
No, I was backing up my arguement with evidence, something that seems to be sorely lacking from many posts. Also, he asked for a summary of what the documents said, instead of going to the bother of reading them himself, so I provided executive summaries. I'm not in the business of spoonfeeding people information. I have provided the evidence and sources for my arguement. If he wants to make an informed reply he can read them. I'm not sure what you're implying by a lack new ideas?0 -
This reply won't wash when we look at the obvious pattern of similar page junking in your past posts.No, I was backing up my arguement with evidence, something that seems to be sorely lacking from many posts. Also, he asked for a summary of what the documents said, instead of going to the bother of reading them himself, so I provided executive summaries. I'm not in the business of spoonfeeding people information. I have provided the evidence and sources for my arguement. If he wants to make an informed reply he can read them. I'm not sure what you're implying by a lack new ideas?0 -
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This reply won't wash when we look at the obvious pattern of similar page junking in your past posts.
Sorry, I back up my arguements with sources and evidence. If you want to call that page junking then fine. I'd call it contributing factual arguement to the debate. If you're happy with crappy posts with flippant remarks with no factual basis then fine. I would not consider that constructive or useful. I take pride in putting thought, time and sources evidence into my posts on this issue. I'll continue providing evidence and people are entitled to ignore it. However, when people come out with blatant rubbish they can't say that they were not provided with accurate information.
EDIT
I also find it ironic that you're accusing me of laziness when the poster that I was directing my post to couldn't be arsed to read the sources that I provided.0 -
Back again.Sorry, I back up my arguements with sources and evidence. If you want to call that page junking then fine. I'd call it contributing factual arguement to the debate. If you're happy with crappy posts with flippant remarks with no factual basis then fine. I would not consider that constructive or useful. I take pride in putting thought, time and sources evidence into my posts on this issue. I'll continue providing evidence and people are entitled to ignore it. However, when people come out with blatant rubbish they can't say that they were not provided with accurate information.
You may appreciate that there is a difference between blaring or shouting and actual communicating.
Junking such volumes on posts looks like either junking to bore people away or blaring to block sensible discussion.
No-one with any intention of really communicating, as you allege that you wish to, would engage in either behaviour, at the rate you do. No, friend, just not believable at all from here.0 -
I try to follow the discussions as they go along, usually with a number of simultaneous contributors. As I said, I often copy what I consider useful items, with references, but try to keep them as short as possible and go for content, not length. Junking in willy-nilly is very like obstructive tactics and certainly slows or blocks open discussion.IrishTonyO wrote: »If you find posts 'too long' or too full of facts you can always ignore them
But I really don't see a need to complain that someone is posting too much detail0 -
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Back again.
You may appreciate that there is a difference between blaring or shouting and actual communicating.
Junking such volumes on posts looks like either junking to bore people away or blaring to block sensible discussion.
No-one with any intention of really communicating, as you allege that you wish to, would engage in either behaviour, at the rate you do. No, friend, just not believable at all from here.
As I said, I provided links. He was entitled to read them. He asked for a summary, I posted what the sources said. I was not "junking" as you put it. Also, if you're taking those last two posts as indicitive of my previous posting record on the topic, I'd suggest you look a bit further back in my posting history. Frankly I'm not too bothered by what you believe.0 -
I suspect that you are not bothered by what a lot of people believe, friend, with that approach to communication. You admitted yourself; "The last one is very long so and won't open for me now but I suggest you read the executive summary to get an idea of what it says." A summary of each or a seperate post for each would perhaps allow readers not already familiar with the issues to absorb a hell of a lot of detail. I can blind you with a lopad of very relevant research and science about androgogy, that certainly proves my point here, if you have time to read, as follows,As I said, I provided links. He was entitled to read them. He asked for a summary, I posted what the sources said. I was not "junking" as you put it. Also, if you're taking those last two posts as indicitive of my previous posting record on the topic, I'd suggest you look a bit further back in my posting history. Frankly I'm not too bothered by what you believe.
"Information Processing Theory (G. Miller)
Overview:
George A. Miller has provided two theoretical ideas that are fundamental to cognitive psychology and the information processing framework.
The first concept is "chunking" and the capacity of short term memory. Miller (1956) presented the idea that short-term memory could only hold 5-9 chunks of information (seven plus or minus two) where a chunk is any meaningful unit. A chunk could refer to digits, words, chess positions, or people's faces. The concept of chunking and the limited capacity of short term memory became a basic element of all subsequent theories of memory.
The second concept is TOTE (Test-Operate-Test-Exit) proposed by Miller, Galanter & Pribram (1960). Miller et al. suggested that TOTE should replace the stimulus-response as the basic unit of behavior. In a TOTE unit, a goal is tested to see if it has been achieved and if not an operation is performed to achieve the goal; this cycle of test-operate is repeated until the goal is eventually achieved or abandoned. The TOTE concept provided the basis of many subsequent theories of problem solving (e.g., GPS) and production systems.
Scope/Application:
Information processing theory has become a general theory of human cognition; the phenomenon of chunking has been verified at all levels of cognitive processing.
Example:
The classic example of chunks is the ability to remember long sequences of binary numbers because they can be coded into decimal form. For example, the sequence 0010 1000 1001 1100 1101 1010 could easily be remembered as 2 8 9 C D A. Of course, this would only work for someone who can convert binary to hexadecimal numbers (i.e., the chunks are "meaningful").
The classic example of a TOTE is a plan for hammering a nail. The Exit Test is whether the nail is flush with the surface. If the nail sticks up, then the hammer is tested to see if it is up (otherwise it is raised) and the hammer is allowed to hit the nail.
Principles:
1. Short term memory (or attention span) is limited to seven chunks of information.
2. Planning (in the form of TOTE units) is a fundamental cognitive process.
3. Behavior is hierarchially organized (e.g., chunks, TOTE units).
References:
Miller, G.A. (1956). The magical number seven, plus or minus two: Some limits on our capacity for processing information. Psychological Review, 63, 81-97.
Miller, G.A., Galanter, E., & Pribram, K.H. (1960). Plans and the Structure of Behavior. New York: Holt, Rinehart & Winston. "
Or, to continue, we should also consider the evidence about Cognitive overload, as I was trying to tell you about:
"Cognitive Load Theory (J. Sweller)
Overview:
This theory suggests that learning happens best under conditions that are aligned with human cognitive architecture. The structure of human cognitive architecture, while not known precisely, is discernible through the results of experimental research. Recognizing George Miller's research showing that short term memory is limited in the number of elements it can contain simultaneously, Sweller builds a theory that treats schemas, or combinations of elements, as the cognitive structures that make up an individual's knowledge base. (Sweller, 1988)
The contents of long term memory are "sophisticated structures that permit us to perceive, think, and solve problems," rather than a group of rote learned facts. These structures, known as schemas, are what permit us to treat multiple elements as a single element. They are the cognitive structures that make up the knowledge base (Sweller, 1988). Schemas are acquired over a lifetime of learning, and may have other schemas contained within themselves.
The difference between an expert and a novice is that a novice hasn't acquired the schemas of an expert. Learning requires a change in the schematic structures of long term memory and is demonstrated by performance that progresses from clumsy, error-prone, slow and difficult to smooth and effortless. The change in performance occurs because as the learner becomes increasingly familiar with the material, the cognitive characteristics associated with the material are altered so that it can be handled more efficiently by working memory.
From an instructional perspective, information contained in instructional material must first be processed by working memory. For schema acquisition to occur, instruction should be designed to reduce working memory load. Cognitive load theory is concerned with techniques for reducing working memory load in order to facilitate the changes in long term memory associated with schema acquisition.
Scope/Application:
Sweller's theories are best applied in the area of instructional design of cognitively complex or technically challenging material. His concentration is on the reasons that people have difficulty learning material of this nature. Cognitive load theory has many implications in the design of learning materials which must, if they are to be effective, keep cognitive load of learners at a minimum during the learning process. While in the past the theory has been applied primarily to technical areas, it is now being applied to more language-based discursive areas.
Example:
In combining an illustration of blood flow through the heart with text and labels, the separation of the text from the illustration forces the learner to look back and forth between the specified parts of the illustration and the text. If the diagram is self-explanatory, research data indicates that processing the text unnecessarily increases working memory load. If the information could be replaced with numbered arrows in the labeled illustration, the learner could concentrate better on learning the content from the illustration alone. Alternatively, if the text is essential to intelligibility, placing it on the diagram rather than separated will reduce cognitive load associated with searching for relations between the text and the diagram (Sweller, 1999).
Principles:
Specific recommendations relative to the design of instructional material include:
1. Change problem solving methods to avoid means-ends approaches that impose a heavy working memory load, by using goal-free problems or worked examples.
2. Eliminate the working memory load associated with having to mentally integrate several sources of information by physically integrating those sources of information.
3. Eliminate the working memory load associated with unnecessarily processing repetitive information by reducing redundancy.
4. Increase working memory capacity by using auditory as well as visual information under conditions where both sources of information are essential (i.e. non-redundant) to understanding.
References:
Sweller, J., Cognitive load during problem solving: Effects on learning, Cognitive Science, 12, 257-285 (1988).
Sweller, J., Instructional Design in Technical Areas, (Camberwell, Victoria, Australia: Australian Council for Educational Research (1999).
Acknowledgement:
This article was provided by Howard Soloman."
________________________________________0 -
What ? No thanks from " IrishTonyO, meditraitor, wes" ?I suspect that you are not bothered by what a lot of people believe, friend, with that approach to communication. You admitted yourself; "The last one is very long so and won't open for me now but I suggest you read the executive summary to get an idea of what it says." A summary of each or a seperate post for each would perhaps allow readers not already familiar with the issues to absorb a hell of a lot of detail. I can blind you with a lopad of very relevant research and science about androgogy, that certainly proves my point here, if you have time to read, as follows,
"Information Processing Theory (G. Miller)
Overview:
George A. Miller has provided two theoretical ideas that are fundamental to cognitive psychology and the information processing framework.
The first concept is "chunking" and the capacity of short term memory. Miller (1956) presented the idea that short-term memory could only hold 5-9 chunks of information (seven plus or minus two) where a chunk is any meaningful unit. A chunk could refer to digits, words, chess positions, or people's faces. The concept of chunking and the limited capacity of short term memory became a basic element of all subsequent theories of memory.
The second concept is TOTE (Test-Operate-Test-Exit) proposed by Miller, Galanter & Pribram (1960). Miller et al. suggested that TOTE should replace the stimulus-response as the basic unit of behavior. In a TOTE unit, a goal is tested to see if it has been achieved and if not an operation is performed to achieve the goal; this cycle of test-operate is repeated until the goal is eventually achieved or abandoned. The TOTE concept provided the basis of many subsequent theories of problem solving (e.g., GPS) and production systems.
Scope/Application:
Information processing theory has become a general theory of human cognition; the phenomenon of chunking has been verified at all levels of cognitive processing.
Example:
The classic example of chunks is the ability to remember long sequences of binary numbers because they can be coded into decimal form. For example, the sequence 0010 1000 1001 1100 1101 1010 could easily be remembered as 2 8 9 C D A. Of course, this would only work for someone who can convert binary to hexadecimal numbers (i.e., the chunks are "meaningful").
The classic example of a TOTE is a plan for hammering a nail. The Exit Test is whether the nail is flush with the surface. If the nail sticks up, then the hammer is tested to see if it is up (otherwise it is raised) and the hammer is allowed to hit the nail.
Principles:
1. Short term memory (or attention span) is limited to seven chunks of information.
2. Planning (in the form of TOTE units) is a fundamental cognitive process.
3. Behavior is hierarchially organized (e.g., chunks, TOTE units).
References:
Miller, G.A. (1956). The magical number seven, plus or minus two: Some limits on our capacity for processing information. Psychological Review, 63, 81-97.
Miller, G.A., Galanter, E., & Pribram, K.H. (1960). Plans and the Structure of Behavior. New York: Holt, Rinehart & Winston. "
Or, to continue, we should also consider the evidence about Cognitive overload, as I was trying to tell you about:
"Cognitive Load Theory (J. Sweller)
Overview:
This theory suggests that learning happens best under conditions that are aligned with human cognitive architecture. The structure of human cognitive architecture, while not known precisely, is discernible through the results of experimental research. Recognizing George Miller's research showing that short term memory is limited in the number of elements it can contain simultaneously, Sweller builds a theory that treats schemas, or combinations of elements, as the cognitive structures that make up an individual's knowledge base. (Sweller, 1988)
The contents of long term memory are "sophisticated structures that permit us to perceive, think, and solve problems," rather than a group of rote learned facts. These structures, known as schemas, are what permit us to treat multiple elements as a single element. They are the cognitive structures that make up the knowledge base (Sweller, 1988). Schemas are acquired over a lifetime of learning, and may have other schemas contained within themselves.
The difference between an expert and a novice is that a novice hasn't acquired the schemas of an expert. Learning requires a change in the schematic structures of long term memory and is demonstrated by performance that progresses from clumsy, error-prone, slow and difficult to smooth and effortless. The change in performance occurs because as the learner becomes increasingly familiar with the material, the cognitive characteristics associated with the material are altered so that it can be handled more efficiently by working memory.
From an instructional perspective, information contained in instructional material must first be processed by working memory. For schema acquisition to occur, instruction should be designed to reduce working memory load. Cognitive load theory is concerned with techniques for reducing working memory load in order to facilitate the changes in long term memory associated with schema acquisition.
Scope/Application:
Sweller's theories are best applied in the area of instructional design of cognitively complex or technically challenging material. His concentration is on the reasons that people have difficulty learning material of this nature. Cognitive load theory has many implications in the design of learning materials which must, if they are to be effective, keep cognitive load of learners at a minimum during the learning process. While in the past the theory has been applied primarily to technical areas, it is now being applied to more language-based discursive areas.
Example:
In combining an illustration of blood flow through the heart with text and labels, the separation of the text from the illustration forces the learner to look back and forth between the specified parts of the illustration and the text. If the diagram is self-explanatory, research data indicates that processing the text unnecessarily increases working memory load. If the information could be replaced with numbered arrows in the labeled illustration, the learner could concentrate better on learning the content from the illustration alone. Alternatively, if the text is essential to intelligibility, placing it on the diagram rather than separated will reduce cognitive load associated with searching for relations between the text and the diagram (Sweller, 1999).
Principles:
Specific recommendations relative to the design of instructional material include:
1. Change problem solving methods to avoid means-ends approaches that impose a heavy working memory load, by using goal-free problems or worked examples.
2. Eliminate the working memory load associated with having to mentally integrate several sources of information by physically integrating those sources of information.
3. Eliminate the working memory load associated with unnecessarily processing repetitive information by reducing redundancy.
4. Increase working memory capacity by using auditory as well as visual information under conditions where both sources of information are essential (i.e. non-redundant) to understanding.
References:
Sweller, J., Cognitive load during problem solving: Effects on learning, Cognitive Science, 12, 257-285 (1988).
Sweller, J., Instructional Design in Technical Areas, (Camberwell, Victoria, Australia: Australian Council for Educational Research (1999).
Acknowledgement:
This article was provided by Howard Soloman."
________________________________________
I am surprised, especially when I gave the references from my notes as opposed to my relevant M.Sc. Thesis. Ah, sure, one can lead the old horse to water, but, it should never get in the way of a good old anti-Israeli gripe, eh?
Any humour left out there?
It always comes in handy in tense negotiations, along with wisdom, balance, honesty and good judgement0 -
I suspect that you are not bothered by what a lot of people believe, friend, with that approach to communication. You admitted yourself; "The last one is very long so and won't open for me now but I suggest you read the executive summary to get an idea of what it says." A summary of each or a seperate post for each would perhaps allow readers not already familiar with the issues to absorb a hell of a lot of detail. I can blind you with a lopad of very relevant research and science about androgogy, that certainly proves my point here, if you have time to read, as follows,
"Information Processing Theory (G. Miller)
As I said, I provided the sources. They are freely available. I'm not going to spoon feed them to people.
If you're post was relevant to the thread I would have read it. See, I'm not lazy like that. I'm perfectly capable of reading and absorbing information more than a paragraph long. I'm not exceptional. Most people can do it if they can be arsed.
Anyway, this thread isn't about me.0 -
Sorry, friend, it is a technical assessment when I tell you that your performance as a would-be-communicator identifies you as a person who needs to spend a week or two examining and trying to understand those sections in detail.As I said, I provided the sources. They are freely available. I'm not going to spoon feed them to people.
If you're post was relevant to the thread I would have read it. See, I'm not lazy like that. I'm perfectly capable of reading and absorbing information more than a paragraph long. I'm not exceptional. Most people can do it if they can be arsed.
Anyway, this thread isn't about me.
There are none so blind....etc. etc.0 -
What ? No thanks from " IrishTonyO, meditraitor, wes" ?
I am surprised, especially when I gave the references from my notes as opposed to my relevant M.Sc. Thesis. Ah, sure, one can lead the old horse to water, but, it should never get in the way of a good old anti-Israeli gripe, eh?
Any humour left out there?
It always comes in handy in tense negotiations, along with wisdom, balance, honesty and good judgement
I think you'll find that they didn't thank my long post either. If you're post or masters thesis was relevant to the arguement then it might have gotten a response. Mine was.
Also, I'd challenge you find some humour after talking to a woman living in a shed with her family who had her house torn down in which 18 people lived.
And please don't call me anti-Israeli. It's rediculous.
And that would have what to do with the topic?Sorry, friend, it is a technical assessment when I tell you that your performance as a would-be-communicator identifies you as a person who needs to spend a week or two examining and trying to understand those sections in detail.
There are none so blind....etc. etc.0 -
What ? No thanks from " IrishTonyO, meditraitor, wes" ?
I am surprised, especially when I gave the references from my notes as opposed to my relevant M.Sc. Thesis. Ah, sure, one can lead the old horse to water, but, it should never get in the way of a good old anti-Israeli gripe, eh?
Any humour left out there?
It always comes in handy in tense negotiations, along with wisdom, balance, honesty and good judgement
I still trying to digest, give me a minute
0 -
What ? No thanks from " IrishTonyO, meditraitor, wes" ?
I am surprised, especially when I gave the references from my notes as opposed to my relevant M.Sc. Thesis. Ah, sure, one can lead the old horse to water, but, it should never get in the way of a good old anti-Israeli gripe, eh?
Any humour left out there?
It always comes in handy in tense negotiations, along with wisdom, balance, honesty and good judgement
Your posts are nothing to do with the topic of the thread and it is clearly you that is trying to derail the thread!0 -
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No friend, I was showing you in as relevant but deliberately simple a way possible just what I was trying to get across to you guys. The thread needs protecting from angry demonstrations of bias and closed ears. I actually argued quite forcefully with anymore just a few pages back, but recent events and some deep conversations have made me change my mind about a lot of issues in the ME. That is the value of these threads, not an opportunity to demonstrate a rabid dislike for one or bother side of a conflict.IrishTonyO wrote: »Your posts are nothing to do with the topic of the thread and it is clearly you that is trying to derail the thread!
Get a coffee and come back with a straight approach and read it all again. Go on, just try it.0
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