Israeli apartheid

meditraitor

Irlandese wrote: »

Sorry, friend, it is a technical assessment when I tell you that your performance as a would-be-communicator identifies you as a person who needs to spend a week or two examining and trying to understand those sections in detail.
There are none so blind....etc. etc.

To answer your little attempt at derailing a perfectly good thread, I firmly believe that you do not understand Swellers THEORY (because that is what it is)
He is proposing keeping cognitive load to a minimum help with the digestion of information.... but basically the information he is talking about is very complex designed and has nothing whatsoever to do with a simple half page reply which you so obviously cant grasp more because of your inate desire to defend the indefensible. This is your problem not Saints

I am by no means clever or even educated but I followed the posts easily and was able to digest them, if you cant it nothing got to do with cognitive overload and more got to do with arrogant, self rightous beliefs that were probably ground into you by a narrow minded peer.

IrishTonyO

Irlandese wrote: »

No friend, I was showing you in as relevant but deliberately simple a way possible just what I was trying to get across to you guys. The thread needs protecting from angry demonstrations of bias and closed ears. I actually argued quite forcefully with anymore just a few pages back, but recent events and some deep conversations have made me change my mind about a lot of issues in the ME. That is the value of these threads, not an opportunity to demonstrate a rabid dislike for one or bother side of a conflict.
Get a coffee and come back with a straight approach and read it all again. Go on, just try it.

Well what have those posts got to do with Israeli Apartheid??? They are irrelevant to this thread unlike the saints who are on topic

Irlandese

meditraitor wrote: »

I still trying to digest, give me a minute

Sorry, I know, it's a tough one.
We were taught to limit ourselves to about 7 new pieces of information at one sitting.
saint and myself have perhaps jammed in over a hundred in those offending posts.
Just trying to make a point, in a simple and inoffensive way. We all have to learn, me very much, as shown over the past couple of weeks. I owe anymore an apology if I came across as one-sided as I was convinced I was in some recent discussions on the issues in the ME.

Irlandese

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Well what have those posts got to do with Israeli Apartheid??? They are irrelevant to this thread unlike the saints who are on topic

Are you having memory problems?
You were the one who posted defending long posts, as copied here;
"If you find posts 'too long' or too full of facts you can always ignore them
But I really don't see a need to complain that someone is posting too much detail "

I was merely replying to you pointing out how the literature says you are wrong and trying to improve discussion modalities here.
Too complicated for you? No worries and no arguaments, thanks.

Ok, back on thread, but briefer and more relevant, and especially more balanced, please

The Saint

Irlandese wrote: »

Ok, back on thread, but briefer and more relevant, and especially more balanced, please

Glad to hear it. Now care to address the issues raised in the sources that I provided?

IrishTonyO

Irlandese wrote: »

Are you having memory problems?
You were the one who posted defending long posts, as copied here;
"If you find posts 'too long' or too full of facts you can always ignore them
But I really don't see a need to complain that someone is posting too much detail "

I was merely replying to you pointing out how the literature says you are wrong and trying to improve discussion modalities here.
Too complicated for you? No worries and no arguaments, thanks.

Ok, back on thread, but briefer and more relevant, and especially more balanced, please

And none of what you say has anything to do with this topic. And in future please do not be so condescending, I am very capable of understanding, and it has nothing to do with this thread.

Irlandese

meditraitor wrote: »

To answer your little attempt at derailing a perfectly good thread, I firmly believe that you do not understand Swellers THEORY (because that is what it is)
He is proposing keeping cognitive load to a minimum help with the digestion of information.... but basically the information he is talking about is very complex designed and has nothing whatsoever to do with a simple half page reply which you so obviously cant grasp more because of your inate desire to defend the indefensible. This is your problem not Saints

I am by no means clever or even educated but I followed the posts easily and was able to digest them, if you cant it nothing got to do with cognitive overload and more got to do with arrogant, self rightous beliefs that were probably ground into you by a narrow minded peer.

Hi Friend,
I do not wish to derail an important and potentially useful thread.
Nor do I agree that you "are not clever or educated".
You are doing well enough here, but I am asking for more balance and perhaps a constructive approach.
There are clearly various levels of apartheid in Israel.
There was too in South Africa.
A lot of generosity and faith and sacrifice were needed before it was defeated and changed in South Africa. I am sure you agree that similar generosity and wisdom will be required in this even more intransigent conflict, with so many interested external actors.
Just listing defects and crimes, without proposing strategies to hopefully test possible solutions is only winding up for more trouble out there, don't you think?

Irlandese

The Saint wrote: »

Glad to hear it. Now care to address the issues raised in the sources that I provided?

Ok, Good start. Hope we can put the argy bargy behind us? Lets perhaps look at a major one of the many lost opportunities by pro-peace activists on the palestinian supporters side, where I have been for many years (and which obviously, by extension, also included me, up until recently, as one of the opportunity losers.)
The extreme right in Israel is often very un-popular indeed with a large part of the rest of the electorate. The religious orthodox zealots are often accused of being overly-fertile, lazy parasites who contribute nothing to Israeli society but feed off the work of others and support extreme right-wing politicians who, in turn, protect their parasitic life-styles ( the words of an Israeli army officer friend) . This is an important part of the extreme-right's hold on power in Israel. This situation provides an opportunity for those who seek to put a more humane and intelligent government in charge of the IDF and to control settler violence, just for starters.
However, before building an alliance with anyone, those secular Israelis who want the same things as me and others, the security situation on the ground has to be stabilised, obviously with the external assistance of the UN, US, EU, others?
Thats what should also be a main and pivotal focus of an anti-apartheid movement for Israel. Realpolitic is the only way we will see peace there in time for this generation of young people, not praying or crying or feeling solidarity, no matter how justified or understandable. I am not going to drop names or details, but, Saint, you others, I have my own share of relevant field experience and have deep friendships and losses to remind me that this is about people, not getting angry, no matter how understandable, on a blog site far from the dirt and hunger and despair of the camps or the feelings of helplessness of good Israelis who are appalled at what is happening but are powerless to act while continuing futile and even pathetic and certainly counter-productive attacks by badly armed angry young men and continuing one-sided critiscism as I have seen here on this thread convince the hard right and the wavering middle in Israel that they have no choice but to continue to show futile but damaging strength and even counter-productive bloodymindedness to the world, to continue to be safe.
Do you see what I am saying?
I am talking about being responsible and being pro-active for peace, not just following the old student-ra-ra stuff that admittedly got me into the struggle in the first place, before I learned, too slowly, just what it was all about. Yasser Arafat and co then. Who now??

Irlandese

IrishTonyO wrote: »

And none of what you say has anything to do with this topic. And in future please do not be so condescending, I am very capable of understanding, and it has nothing to do with this thread.

Apologies if I appeared condescending. Not intended.
I appreciate you guys are truly concerned for the welfare of the palestinians.
I am too, but maybe have had some useful kicks in the transome recently,
to help me appreciate that the reality of changing things for the better for the young people in the camps, in particular, is too important to allow this shouting game to take the place of real progress.
The extreme right in Israel and New York are quite happy to see the debate degrade to this safe standard that will not threaten their control of the Israeli parliment.
However, if an alliance was built and worked, ( two big "ifs" ) it would threaten much more than the settlers and the apartheid system we want to defeat.

The Saint

Irlandese wrote: »

Just listing defects and crimes, without proposing strategies to hopefully test possible solutions is only winding up for more trouble out there, don't you think?

The issue was that some didn't acknowledge the discriminatory policies being carried out in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Therefore it was necessary for the argument to provide that this was taking place.

There are plenty of things that could be done to stop this that would have no detrimental impact on Israel's security. On the contrary, they would likely be benificial to their security.

Stop discriminatory zoning of land in East Jerusalem.
Invest in infrastructure in East Jerusalem proportionate to the population size and taxes paid.
Stop discriminatory residency rights and revocation of Jerusalem IDs.
Stop Israeli/settler only roads in the West Bank that fragment the territory.
Stop house demolitions and evictions in East Jerusalem and Area C.
Allow Palestinians to build in Area C.
Distribute water equitably.
Punish setters for violence committed against Palestinians.
Remove outposts.
Stop building settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank that absorb Palestinian land.
Remove/re-route the Barrier where it is built to incorporate settlements while cutting Palestinians off from their land.
Stop the displacement of Palestinians in Jerusalem, Area C and the Seam Zones.

That's just a start.

Irlandese

The Saint wrote: »

The issue was that some didn't acknowledge the discriminatory policies being carried out in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Therefore it was necessary for the argument to provide that this was taking place.

There are plenty of things that could be done to stop this that would have no detrimental impact on Israel's security. On the contrary, they would likely be benificial to their security.

Stop discriminatory zoning of land in East Jerusalem.
Invest in infrastructure in East Jerusalem proportionate to the population size and taxes paid.
Stop discriminatory residency rights and revocation of Jerusalem IDs.
Stop Israeli/settler only roads in the West Bank that fragment the territory.
Stop house demolitions and evictions in East Jerusalem and Area C.
Allow Palestinians to build in Area C.
Distribute water equitably.
Punish setters for violence committed against Palestinians.
Remove outposts.
Stop building settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank that absorb Palestinian land.
Remove/re-route the Barrier where it is built to incorporate settlements while cutting Palestinians off from their land.
Stop the displacement of Palestinians in Jerusalem, Area C and the Seam Zones.

That's just a start.

Ok, but, it is how we get to that position that counts. Armies follow politicians and laws and policies. We will not reverse this situation without the prospect of an internal political change in Israel, assisted by external pressure from Obama and others. You will no doubt have been watching the recent spats between netanyahu and obama and reading the articles in the Jerusalem Post on-line to see how fragile things might be if there were a concerted alliance between respective peace movements to get to the final decisions you suggest.

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

Building settlements is not an act of agression, .

It is, as is the taking of land for that purpose.

You still haven't answered
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65399820&postcount=382

The Saint

Irlandese wrote: »

The extreme right in Israel is often very un-popular indeed with a large part of the rest of the electorate. The religious orthodox zealots are often accused of being overly-fertile, lazy parasites who contribute nothing to Israeli society but feed off the work of others and support extreme right-wing politicians who, in turn, protect their parasitic life-styles ( the words of an Israeli army officer friend) .

This appears to be a widespread opinion amongst Israelis.

Irlandese wrote: »

However, before building an alliance with anyone, those secular Israelis who want the same things as me and others, the security situation on the ground has to be stabilised, obviously with the external assistance of the UN, US, EU, others?

The security situation in the West Bank is actually quite good already. It can't really be used as an excuse for a lack of movement by the Israelis. Also, if the measures that I listed above were implemented the security situation would likely improve further.

Irlandese wrote: »

I am not going to drop names or details, but, Saint, you others, I have my own share of relevant field experience and have deep friendships and losses to remind me that this is about people, not getting angry, no matter how understandable, on a blog site far from the dirt and hunger and despair of the camps or the feelings of helplessness of good Israelis who are appalled at what is happening but are powerless to act while continuing futile and even pathetic and certainly counter-productive attacks by badly armed angry young men and continuing one-sided critiscism as I have seen here on this thread convince the hard right and the wavering middle in Israel that they have no choice but to continue to show futile but damaging strength and even counter-productive bloodymindedness to the world, to continue to be safe.
Do you see what I am saying?

I too am aware of the situation and understand that getting angry, while often understandibly and natural, does not do anything constructive. However, I think it would be a good thing for Israelis to get angry about this and show their government their anger in order to force policy changes. Unfortunately, most Israelis don't know what it's like in the West Bank. They don't understand what Palestinians have to go through on a daily basis. If they did, I'd imagine that they would be far more mobilised than they currently are. I think it would be very instructive to bring Israelis into the West Bank to show them what is really like there. This, I believe, would do a lot to strengthen the peace movement in Israel. However, I have found that as long as there is no threat coming from there, there tends to be little interest.

Irlandese

The Saint wrote: »

This appears to be a widespread opinion amongst Israelis.


The security situation in the West Bank is actually quite good already. It can't really be used as an excuse for a lack of movement by the Israelis. Also, if the measures that I listed above were implemented the security situation would likely improve further.


I too am aware of the situation and understand that getting angry, while often understandibly and natural, does not do anything constructive. However, I think it would be a good thing for Israelis to get angry about this and show their government their anger in order to force policy changes. Unfortunately, most Israelis don't know what it's like in the West Bank. They don't understand what Palestinians have to go through on a daily basis. If they did, I'd imagine that they would be far more mobilised than they currently are. I think it would be very instructive to bring Israelis into the West Bank to show them what is really like there. This, I believe, would do a lot to strengthen the peace movement in Israel. However, I have found that as long as there is no threat coming from there, there tends to be little interest.

I think the situation there is still considered too dangerous for and by most Israelis, although this kind of meeting certainly has to happen to advance understanding. I can see off-site hosted joint youth projects helping, like the joint cultural and music activities we used between Northern Irish Catholics and Protestants, that can do much to bridge misunderstandings. There is a definite role for the EU here, without too much additional beaurocracy, particularly under the EU MEDA Programme.
Joint working groups in various community sectors are also an excellent pathway, if extra, ring-fenced funding was available and new innovative political-administrative support structures could be agreed between Israel, the Palestinian Authorities and a viable network of support structures as with MEDA and some of the less contentious and specialist International Agencies.
Sorry if I seem too much the beaurocrat/technocrat, but that is where I am coming from, as opposed to being a politician, re how to change things under stressful socio-political conditions.
I see a lot of potential working models that I and colleagues would have worked with, with varying degrees of success, having scope to play a part in a new set of beginings here, that could start to shape a new Israel/Palestine partnership, with perhaps integration into the quietly discussed "outer-EU " Ring, down the road, that might include Turkey, Serbia-Kosovo-Montenegro etc. There are lots of possibles and it could take less than many might imagine, if the will grows.

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

It is, as is the taking of land for that purpose.

You still haven't answered
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65399820&postcount=382

Well Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams decided that hopping into bed with the enemy, so to speak, was preferable to achieving the All Ireland Repubic they wanted. Politcial power and prestige was preferable to them even though the six counties still remained a Britiish possession, still part of the colonies.
does that make it any clearer. Obivousily I dont wish palestine to be an Israeli possession but to be self governing and independent. I expext Plaestinians will not settle for what Gerry and Mart settled for !

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

Well (.....)for !

Your original quote was clearly not referring to the Good Friday agreement.

anymore wrote: »

Sounds a bit like Cromwell in Ireland doesnt it ?
Of course we at some point decided that having three green fileds was an option we could live with and accepted the Fourth green field had to stay under the rule of the Brits ! Guess that is why ireland desoite the recession is still not a third world country. And we even changed our constitution to reflect the reality of life.

"we at some point decided that having three green fileds was an option we could live with " - what are the "three green fileds(sic)" in the Palestinian context?

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

Your original quote was clearly not referring to the Good Friday agreement.



"we at some point decided that having three green fileds was an option we could live with " - what are the "three green fileds(sic)" in the Palestinian context?

Well help me out here; which are the areas Israel wants to hold on to ?

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

Well help me out here; which are the areas Israel wants to hold on to ?

Help you out with your own analogy.....

Why don't you just say what you meant and be done with it?

wes

Interesting article from the BBC, where Netenyahu once again, says Israel won't stop building illegal settlements in occupied East Jerusalem:

Netanyahu says East Jerusalem demands 'prevent peace'

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said he will not accept demands that Israel stop building in occupied East Jerusalem.

Demands to halt building in the part of the city that Palestinians want as the capital of their future capital "prevented peace", he told ABC news.

The comments by Israel's prime minister come just days after the US pressed Israel to do more to pursue peace.

Relations have been strained between the two allies recently, reports say.

Click here for full article

I do find Netanyahu comments to be pretty hilarious. How exactly can the Palestinians engage in a peace process, when the land they are negotiating over is being stolen by Israel, to create "facts on the ground" so that they can claim more land. Why wouldn't that be a pre-requisite to talks?

How can they possibly negotiate over land, that if Israel feels is settled enough, that they will keep it? The Palestinians know full well, the intention of Israel colonization is to grab as much land as possible, and that when they didn't call for a settlement freeze last time, the colonies kept on expanding.

Nodin

wes wrote: »

Interesting article from the BBC, where Netenyahu once again, says Israel won't stop building illegal settlements in occupied East Jerusalem:



I do find Netanyahu comments to be pretty hilarious. How exactly can the Palestinians engage in a peace process, when the land they are negotiating over is being stolen by Israel, to create "facts on the ground" so that they can claim more land. Why wouldn't that be a pre-requisite to talks?

How can they possibly negotiate over land, that if Israel feels is settled enough, that they will keep it? The Palestinians know full well, the intention of Israel colonization is to grab as much land as possible, and that when they didn't call for a settlement freeze last time, the colonies kept on expanding.

Indeedy. Oslo saw a veritable property boom of Anglo proportions in the OT. They don't want to make the same mistakes Arafat did.

johnnyskeleton

I always find it strange that Irish people get so partisan about a conflict thousands of miles away, just as I find it strange that they can express such clear cut opinions on a conflict that has taxed some of the greatest political minds of the 20th century without being resolved.

The Israelis have a right to a homeland, but they have to stop their human rights abuses. The Palestinians have a right to a homeland, but they have to police the criminal/terrorist elements.

Is that such a hard principle to grasp?

IrishTonyO

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I always find it strange that Irish people get so partisan about a conflict thousands of miles away, just as I find it strange that they can express such clear cut opinions on a conflict that has taxed some of the greatest political minds of the 20th century without being resolved.

The Israelis have a right to a homeland, but they have to stop their human rights abuses. The Palestinians have a right to a homeland, but they have to police the criminal/terrorist elements.

Is that such a hard principle to grasp?

you find it strange people can express clear cut opinions and then you express a clear cut opinion

wes

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The Israelis have a right to a homeland, but they have to stop their human rights abuses. The Palestinians have a right to a homeland, but they have to police the criminal/terrorist elements.

The Palestinians are doing this in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and the Israeli occupation and colonization continues unabated. I would think there would be more movement with Fatah at least, but we have Netanyahu, once again torpedoing any change of peace.

You are right both sides need to cut the crap, and Hamas should join Fatah in a national unity government and renounce attacking Israeli civiians, but I don't see that making much progress with Israel tbh, as evidence there reaction to Fatah in the West Bank.

Irlandese

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I always find it strange that Irish people get so partisan about a conflict thousands of miles away, just as I find it strange that they can express such clear cut opinions on a conflict that has taxed some of the greatest political minds of the 20th century without being resolved.

The Israelis have a right to a homeland, but they have to stop their human rights abuses. The Palestinians have a right to a homeland, but they have to police the criminal/terrorist elements.

Is that such a hard principle to grasp?

Thanks, Johnny.
You seem to be the lone flame-carrier here today!
No offense, you other guys, but, it is time to wake up and smell the coffee or whatever analogy lights your candle:
Today's Irish Times story shows the USA may be actually moving the goal-posts.
"Israel may come under new pressure next month at a UN meeting on atomic weapons as the United States, Britain and France consider backing Egypt's call for a zone in the Middle East free of nuclear arms, envoys said."

Now go and read the Jerusalem post article "62 , under a US Cloud" at ;
http://www.jpost.com/ArtsAndCulture/Entertainment/Article.aspx?id=173461
and read that site as often as you post here, to see what is really happening on a wider front.

Now, lets just hope the "usual crazies" do not make the US Administration regret their long over-due shift in blind support !

My quote:
It is actually not that hard to avoid working for peace, if you were never all that interested in it in the first place................

wes

Irlandese wrote: »

Now, lets just hope the "usual crazies" do not make the US Administration regret their long over-due shift in blind support !

I think a wait and see approach would make more sense, after all the whole settlement freeze demand was meant to signify a great change, but kind of fizzled out.

FlutterinBantam

Irlandese wrote: »

Thanks, Johnny.
You seem to be the lone flame-carrier here today!
No offense, you other guys, but, it is time to wake up and smell the coffee or whatever analogy lights your candle:
Today's Irish Times story shows the USA may be actually moving the goal-posts.
"Israel may come under new pressure next month at a UN meeting on atomic weapons as the United States, Britain and France consider backing Egypt's call for a zone in the Middle East free of nuclear arms, envoys said."

Now go and read the Jerusalem post article "62 , under a US Cloud" at ;
http://www.jpost.com/ArtsAndCulture/Entertainment/Article.aspx?id=173461
and read that site as often as you post here, to see what is really happening on a wider front.

Now, lets just hope the "usual crazies" do not make the US Administration regret their long over-due shift in blind support !

My quote:
It is actually not that hard to avoid working for peace, if you were never all that interested in it in the first place................

Usual crazies? can you perhaps elaborate on that rather inflammatory description Sir?

IrishTonyO

Here is the link to the story in the Times

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0420/breaking8.html

Nodin

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Usual crazies? can you perhaps elaborate on that rather inflammatory description Sir?

Pat Robertson and the 'evangelical right', I'd imagine.

ShayMurphy459

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Hey, I'm not defending the settlements. I don't think the IDF should be wasting resources on protecting settlers.

My point still stands though that rocks vs soldiers = dumb as a bag of hammers.

I've been there and I seen this first hand. The profile of the average soldier guarding these micro settlements is a young Israeli conscript that hates the religious right wing groups that they are forced to protect.

Don't think of the conflict as Israeli's versus Palestinians - think of it as moderates on both sides struggling to control fanatics on their own side while making peace.

It's moderates versus fanatics.

And the fanatics on both sides are pure evil.

cyberhog

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

if someone goes out and starts attacking armed soldiers then they are retards.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Its easily apparent to see that if you attack soldiers then sh-t can happen, they must be absolutely thick if they don't realise that.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

rocks vs soldiers = dumb as a bag of hammers.

What about Jews that throw stones at the IDF? Do you feel the same way about them?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1164189.html