Israeli apartheid

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

Theres nothing temporary or security led about it. They annexed it with a vote in the Knessit years ago....You also seem to be deliberately ignoring the West Bank building, and the building in Arab East Jerusalem thats been constantly mentioned in the news this week.

Do you have any clue about the subject at all?




Correct on the last two, and the first part of the first.



....that makes no sense whatsoever.....

Millions of people were forcibly uprooted from their traditional homes at the end of the last war and forced to new lands. The Palestinian situation is not unique. So lets stop making Palestine the epicentre of the world. It is not. Their situation is not unique - they will have to accept compromise - most people do.

IrishTonyO

anymore wrote: »

Well you asked for ' follow through thinking in relation to Israel, so here goes......

Morocco's occupation of the Western Sahara and the acceptance of it by their fellow Muslim States in the Middle East, makes Israel's present, and of course temporary, security led occupation of a small part of Jerusalem, seem like the norm rather than the exception.
The manner in which both Sunni and Shiite militants have forced thousands of fellow Iraqis from their traditional homes and the huge numbers of innocents( Up to one hundred thousand) who have been slaughtered by these militants, make the Israelis seem quite restrained in comparision.

Let me anticipate your answer :

• That not the question I asked ! (meaning that is not the answer I want)
• Thats off topic -
• Thats irrelevant ....etc

Of course they are the answers you will get this thread is about Israeli apartheid and you consistently bring in Western Sahara when you can't back you your points, derailing the thread

anymore

wes wrote: »

You seem to constantly want to derail this thread, so due to this, I have to repeat that you are being off topic, and suggest that if you really want to discuss the topic then you could of course start a new thread, and not derail this one.



You have not provided analogous situations, and you have rejected International law, and as such what you are saying makes no sense what so ever.

Why is the Western Sahara different from Palestine ? Or Tibet, or Kosovo or Chechnya or .....

The Saint

anymore wrote: »

Ridiculous ?
Until recently we had a constitutional claim to the six counties. From our point of view, we had a legal right to the six counties. The UK had internationally recognised title to all of of Ireland for centuries. Internatinal recognition is very fickle. What is International law doing about Tibet ?

Ireland's constutional claim had no basis internationally nor was not recognised internationally and therefore had no legitimate claim to Northern Ireland under international law. Unfortunately there is not much that can be done internationally about Tibet as China has a veto on the Security Council.

IrishTonyO

anymore wrote: »

Ridiculous ?
Until recently we had a constitutional claim to the six counties. From our point of view, we had a legal right to the six counties. The UK had internationally recognised title to all of of Ireland for centuries. Internatinal recognition is very fickle. What is International law doing about Tibet ?

Now you bring in Tibet will you please stick to the thread or create new ones

wes

anymore wrote: »

Why is the Western Sahara different from Palestine ? Or Tibet, or Kosovo or Chechnya or .....

Start a new thread, if you wish to discuss those countries. I won't be dragged into the whataboutery nonsense.

IrishTonyO

anymore wrote: »

Why is the Western Sahara different from Palestine ? Or Tibet, or Kosovo or Chechnya or .....

They are not the subject of this thread. It is very simple look at the title!!!!

wes

Anyway to get back on topic, another example from peacenow.org of the Apartheid that exists in Israel:

Setting the Record Straight: Palestinians Can't Really Live in West Jerusalem

BlaasForRafa

wes wrote: »

Start a new thread, if you wish to discuss those countries. I won't be dragged into the whataboutery nonsense.

Its never stopped you in the past.

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

What is International law doing about Tibet ?

Nothing, as China can veto any motion in much the same way as the US vetoes motions on the Occupation, despite the fact its clearly illegal.

The expression "two wrongs don't make a right" is new to you, I take it?

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

Nothing, as China can veto any motion in much the same way as the US vetoes motions on the Occupation, despite the fact its clearly illegal.

The expression "two wrongs don't make a right" is new to you, I take it?

This topic is pretty much played out at this stage. I've said just about all I want to say in any case, I don't need to clarify any of the statements I've already made.

However if this just turns into a "random slag off Israel" thread then it'll say more about the participants than it does about Israel.

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Its never stopped you in the past.

Yes, and hence why I am trying not to do so now. Secondly, I could easily say various things about your contributions, but I don't see any reason to get personal.

BlaasForRafa

wes wrote: »

Yes, and hence why I am trying not to do so now. Secondly, I could easily say various things about your contributions, but I don't see any reason to get personal.

Theres a number of things I could say about your contributions too.

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Theres a number of things I could say about your contributions too.

Well, you already have in this thread........

Anyway, the thread isn't about either of us, so best to move on.

joesoap007

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Yeah Fatah seized the west bank...after Hamas seized the Gaza strip. They are both violent organizations more interested in power than their peoples welfare. Trying to make one out to be "good" and one out to be "bad" is foolish.

power of what? they have nothing..hamas are doing the best they can do.remember idf targeted palestine police men with their first shells and air strikes wich is a war crime i think, they hit everything of importants.hamas are trying to rebuild homes schools and stuff like that.they have bad people to but everyone has that same problem EVERYWERE..at lest hamas didn sell out their own people and fill them full of sh1te..robert fisk book explains it well..fatah sold out..thats why hamas took power..thats why israel want to crush them because they cant be bought and sold like fatah arafat was..

anymore

wes wrote: »

Anyway to get back on topic, another example from peacenow.org of the Apartheid that exists in Israel:

Setting the Record Straight: Palestinians Can't Really Live in West Jerusalem

Thank you for that. Clearly all citizens of israel shoul havethe right to buy land in East Jerusalem and not just rent it.. The sooner East Jerusalem is fully integrated into the rest of Jerusalem, the better for all. Though it is reassuring to see Ethnic palestinians seeking to rent property there. Presumably if they had ideological objections, they wouldnt be seeking the right to buy off of the State of Israel. :rolleyes:
Long live the free market !

wes

anymore wrote: »

Thank you for that. Clearly all citizens of israel shoul havethe right to buy land in East Jerusalem and not just rent it.. The sooner East Jerusalem is fully integrated into the rest of Jerusalem, the better for all. Though it is reassuring to see Ethnic palestinians seeking to rent property there. Presumably if they had ideological objections, they wouldnt be seeking the right to buy off of the State of Israel. :rolleyes:
Long live the free market !

So, you have decided to ignore the entire thurst of the article, and the clear and unambigous inequality between Israeli's and Palestinians in the city.

Well, I can't say I am surprised, and once again you show support for the illegal annexation of East Jerusalem, which isn't recognised by any other country on the planet, as it is a clear violation of International law, and surefire way to ensure the conflict is never resolved.

Also, the reason Palestinians are renting property, is that there is a desperate shortage of housing for them, which is clearly explained in the link article from Peace Now.

IrishTonyO

don't bother wes, anymore just sees and hears what he wants to, God forbid the facts might get in the way

anymore

wes wrote: »

So, you have decided to ignore the entire thurst of the article, and the clear and unambigous inequality between Israeli's and Palestinians in the city.

Well, I can't say I am surprised, and once again you show support for the illegal annexation of East Jerusalem, which isn't recognised by any other country on the planet, as it is a clear violation of International law, and surefire way to ensure the conflict is never resolved.

Also, the reason Palestinians are renting property, is that there is a desperate shortage of housing for them, which is clearly explained in the link article from Peace Now.

Well the site can hadly be regarded as detached and unbiased !

wes

anymore wrote: »

Well the site can hadly be regarded as detached and unbiased !

Yes, your right, they are biased towards peace. Still, everything they say is true in this instance, and imho what Israel does in Jerusalem is indefensible and is further evidence of the existence of apartheid.

Nodin

Presumably these three reports are some ones bias and imagination as well.

The international Red Cross has privately accused Israel of reshaping Jerusalem to further its own interests, in violation of international law
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6658799.stm

A confidential report written for European Union foreign ministers has criticised Israel's policy on East Jerusalem, newspaper reports say.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4470118.stm

A confidential EU report accuses the Israeli government of using settlement expansion, house demolitions, discriminatory housing policies and the West Bank barrier as a way of "actively pursuing the illegal annexation" of East Jerusalem.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/07/israel-palestine-eu-report-jerusalem

Nick_oliveri

^^
Whats with all the privately and confidentially? Pussies.

The Saint

anymore wrote: »

Thank you for that. Clearly all citizens of israel shoul havethe right to buy land in East Jerusalem and not just rent it.. The sooner East Jerusalem is fully integrated into the rest of Jerusalem, the better for all. Though it is reassuring to see Ethnic palestinians seeking to rent property there. Presumably if they had ideological objections, they wouldnt be seeking the right to buy off of the State of Israel. :rolleyes:
Long live the free market !

Well I think there is little to argue about here. You have shown what you would like to happen even though this is rejected by every single country in the world. Your views fall at the extremist end of the spectrum in relation to this issue and you have shown your absolute disregard for international law. From what you have stated here I wouls assume that you also approve of the Chinese occupation of Tibet, the Russia's policy in Chechnya and all of the other cases that you have cited.

I really don't think there's any point in arguing with you anymore given your disregard of the universal international consensus and total disregard for international law. However, regarding housing and planning in East Jerusalem I would urge you to read this report from UNOCHA. I'm not sure if this is an acceptable source for you and I'm sure it won't change your mind but it might help inform your arguements which seem to lack any form of informed opinion.

anymore

The Saint wrote: »

Well I think there is little to argue about here. You have shown what you would like to happen even though this is rejected by every single country in the world. Your views fall at the extremist end of the spectrum in relation to this issue and you have shown your absolute disregard for international law. From what you have stated here I wouls assume that you also approve of the Chinese occupation of Tibet, the Russia's policy in Chechnya and all of the other cases that you have cited.

I really don't think there's any point in arguing with you anymore given your disregard of the universal international consensus and total disregard for international law. However, regarding housing and planning in East Jerusalem I would urge you to read this report from UNOCHA. I'm not sure if this is an acceptable source for you and I'm sure it won't change your mind but it might help inform your arguements which seem to lack any form of informed opinion.

Why not integrate East Jerusalem into Jerusalem at this stage ?
What are the alternatives ? Palestine no longer exists ! We now have, for want of better descriptions, Hamasland and Fatahland. The former is dedicated to wiping Israel out totally and I am not too sure what the other stands for. If many of the posters here are to believed, their aim is to liquidate Hamas.
So what is to be done with East Jerusalem. Have a shoot out to decide who controls ? Toss a coin or maybe divide East Jerusalem in two and give a portion to each of the warring factions ?
Or maybe commission a report from the UN, the Red Cross or any of the other agencies who are active there.
You people are great for criticising others but very slow to recognise reality.

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

Presumably these three reports are some ones bias and imagination as well.

The international Red Cross has privately accused Israel of reshaping Jerusalem to further its own interests, in violation of international law
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6658799.stm

A confidential report written for European Union foreign ministers has criticised Israel's policy on East Jerusalem, newspaper reports say.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4470118.stm

A confidential EU report accuses the Israeli government of using settlement expansion, house demolitions, discriminatory housing policies and the West Bank barrier as a way of "actively pursuing the illegal annexation" of East Jerusalem.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/07/israel-palestine-eu-report-jerusalem

Is this the same EU which has a member the UK, the country who operating with the US has killed over 100 totally innocent afghan/Pakistani civilians by means of unmanned Predator launched rockets in the first three months of this year alone ? The same UK which supplied bilogical materials to Saddam which used in manufacturing the poison gases used against innocent civilians ? The same EU which includes Germany whose industrial firms supplied strategic materials to the same Saddam ?

It is ? Yeah their confidential reports are really impressive !

anymore

wes wrote: »

Yes, your right, they are biased towards peace. Still, everything they say is true in this instance, and imho what Israel does in Jerusalem is indefensible and is further evidence of the existence of apartheid.

As I have repeatedly said, by the standards of the region, Israeli apartheid, is quite unremarkable. I am happy to condemn all apartheid in the region, are you ?
By the way,is it still a crime to own a bible in Saudi Arabia ?

IrishTonyO

anymore wrote: »

Is this the same EU which has a member the UK, the country who operating with the US has killed over 100 totally innocent afghan/Pakistani civilians by means of unmanned Predator launched rockets in the first three months of this year alone ? The same UK which supplied bilogical materials to Saddam which used in manufacturing the poison gases used against innocent civilians ? The same EU which includes Germany whose industrial firms supplied strategic materials to the same Saddam ?

It is ? Yeah their confidential reports are really impressive !

Again trying to derail the thread

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

Is this the same EU which has a member the UK, the country who operating with the US has killed over 100 totally innocent afghan/Pakistani civilians by means of unmanned Predator launched rockets in the first three months of this year alone ? The same UK which supplied bilogical materials to Saddam which used in manufacturing the poison gases used against innocent civilians ? The same EU which includes Germany whose industrial firms supplied strategic materials to the same Saddam ?

It is ? Yeah their confidential reports are really impressive !

What did the evil Red Cross do? You left them out there.

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

Why not integrate East Jerusalem into Jerusalem at this stage ?

....because the people there don't want to be in an Israeli state. Seeing how they've been treated, thats not that suprising either.

wes

anymore wrote: »

As I have repeatedly said, by the standards of the region, Israeli apartheid, is quite unremarkable. I am happy to condemn all apartheid in the region, are you ?
By the way,is it still a crime to own a bible in Saudi Arabia ?

You have made it very clear that you support Israels violation of International law, so your condemnation would ring rather hollow.

Secondly, still trying to derail the thread I see.

Finally, once again ignoring points brought up as per usual, and respond with predictable whataboutery.

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

....because the people there don't want to be in an Israeli state. Seeing how they've been treated, thats not that suprising either.

So where do they go ?
Into a 'state' controlled by hamas or the one controlled by Fatah ?

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

So where do they go ?
Into a 'state' controlled by hamas or the one controlled by Fatah ?

As its linked to the West Bank, its fairly obvious.

Why didn't you address the Red Cross report I linked? You yourself stated

Toss a coin or maybe divide East Jerusalem in two and give a portion to each of the warring factions ?
Or maybe commission a report from the UN, the Red Cross or any of the other agencies who are active there.
You people are great for criticising others but very slow to recognise reality.

The Saint

anymore wrote: »

So where do they go ?
Into a 'state' controlled by hamas or the one controlled by Fatah ?

It is clear that before the foundation of a Palestinian state there will need to reconcilliation between the two regimes in Gaza and the West Bank and democratic elections.

rowanh

anymore wrote: »

As I have repeatedly said, by the standards of the region, Israeli apartheid, is quite unremarkable. I am happy to condemn all apartheid in the region, are you ?
By the way,is it still a crime to own a bible in Saudi Arabia ?

Definitions of unremarkable on the Web:

* everyday: found in the ordinary course of events; "a placid everyday scene"; "it was a routine day"; "there's nothing quite like a real... ...
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

You think Israeli apartheid is a placid everyday scene?

You are happy to condem aparthied yet you support israels actions, ie aparthied.

Reading your comments through this thread discusts me, how would you feel about someone comparing you to a person justifying the nazis actions during ww2?

Irlandese

karma_ wrote: »

Are both Jews and the Palestinians not semitic peoples? I would imagine both have been there as long as each other.

Actually, all palestinians are semites but the majority of Israelis are european and soviet bloc non-semite immigrants.
It is important in as far as undermining the appalling con-job practiced by Zionists who routinely mask racist zionist policies by labelling anyone calling for an honest review as an anti-semite. It is a useful piece of untruthful propoganda that too many people allow to go un-challenged.

Irlandese

anymore wrote: »

Why not integrate East Jerusalem into Jerusalem at this stage ?
What are the alternatives ? Palestine no longer exists ! We now have, for want of better descriptions, Hamasland and Fatahland. The former is dedicated to wiping Israel out totally and I am not too sure what the other stands for. If many of the posters here are to believed, their aim is to liquidate Hamas.
So what is to be done with East Jerusalem. Have a shoot out to decide who controls ? Toss a coin or maybe divide East Jerusalem in two and give a portion to each of the warring factions ?
Or maybe commission a report from the UN, the Red Cross or any of the other agencies who are active there.
You people are great for criticising others but very slow to recognise reality.

So "Palestine" no longer exists? You seem to like this result of the zionist inspired Israeli holocaust being perpetrated on Palestinians without pause, since 1948? Did you also enjoy the four day extermination of thousands of palestinian women, children and elderly, in Sabra and Shatillah refugee camps in Lebanon by Israeli mercenaries using hand grenades and buldozing houses packed with still living victims, while Ariel Sharon got in a little pistol practice on palestinian children? yes, it must really be great sport watching your favourite team of racist war-mongers tackle sling-shots with helicopter gunships. My compliments on your strong stomach.

cyberhog

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Israel is a democracy, non-jews have the vote just the same as jews.

Israel prevents it's Arab citizens from full participation through a variety of laws and institutions so while Israel may have democratic structures it certainly doesn't have equality for all.
Here's a short film that captures what it means to be an Arab citizen of Israel --to be "physically present, with rights absent"

http://vimeo.com/user3417283

http://adalah.org/eng/index.php

Irlandese

cyberhog wrote: »

Israel prevents it's Arab citizens from full participation through a variety of laws and institutions so while Israel may have democratic structures it certainly doesn't have equality for all.
Here's a short film that captures what it means to be an Arab citizen of Israel --to be "physically present, with rights absent"

http://vimeo.com/user3417283

http://adalah.org/eng/index.php

Thank you, friend. Viewing both films should be a requirement for participation in debates about Israel and it's treatment of it's arab hostage-semi-citizens.
For the record, I am in favour of the Israeli peace movement and wish to see a free, independant, democratic and rights respeting Israel living peacefully with it's arab neighbours. I also wish to see a nuclear weapon free middle-east with respect for the rights of all, irrespective of race, religion or sex !
Yes, I am an idealist and a dreamer.
But it could happen, if the USA decided to step back from it's un-conditional guarantee to defend all Israeli actions, if Israel and Iran both decided, together, to hand over all nuclear weapons and materials capable of use in nukes to an idependant de-commissioning agency, if Israel stapped back to pre-1967 boidres, if Israel abolished apartheid laws denying arab citizens basic rights and if an international monitoring force went in to all of the territories of Israel and Palestine for an initial period of five years to effect and police the changes.
Ok, I am as mad as the very very brave Israeli peace activists, who I salute and thank with all my heart for their brave, thankless and largely un-supported work, in the face of the terrible aggression and inhumanity of US-backed settlers and other zionist terrorists.

anymore

Irlandese wrote: »

Thank you, friend. Viewing both films should be a requirement for participation in debates about Israel and it's treatment of it's arab hostage-semi-citizens.
For the record, I am in favour of the Israeli peace movement and wish to see a free, independant, democratic and rights respeting Israel living peacefully with it's arab neighbours. I also wish to see a nuclear weapon free middle-east with respect for the rights of all, irrespective of race, religion or sex !
Yes, I am an idealist and a dreamer.
But it could happen, if the USA decided to step back from it's un-conditional guarantee to defend all Israeli actions, if Israel and Iran both decided, together, to hand over all nuclear weapons and materials capable of use in nukes to an idependant de-commissioning agency, if Israel stapped back to pre-1967 boidres, if Israel abolished apartheid laws denying arab citizens basic rights and if an international monitoring force went in to all of the territories of Israel and Palestine for an initial period of five years to effect and police the changes.
Ok, I am as mad as the very very brave Israeli peace activists, who I salute and thank with all my heart for their brave, thankless and largely un-supported work, in the face of the terrible aggression and inhumanity of US-backed settlers and other zionist terrorists.

I see that for all your indignation, for all your protests, for all the melodrama in your protests, you seem interested in condemning only one set of terrorists - to use your own words ' I compliment you on your strong stomach.'.
I condemn all murderers without discriminating between them. And I am not so shy in identfying that the evil of religion fundamentalism is behind much if not most of the blood letting in this part of the world. But of course such as sentiment is " off thread". Indignation is simply self indulgence if one isnt prepared to be detached and look at all the facts.
I see the brave Hamas fighters have been active again trying to provoke Israel into a response - who will pay for it ? Innocent Palestinians.

Irlandese

anymore wrote: »

I see that for all your indignation, for all your protests, for all the melodrama in your protests, you seem interested in condemning only one set of terrorists - to use your own words ' I compliment you on your strong stomach.'.
I condemn all murderers without discriminating between them. And I am not so shy in identfying that the evil of religion fundamentalism is behind much if not most of the blood letting in this part of the world. But of course such as sentiment is " off thread". Indignation is simply self indulgence if one isnt prepared to be detached and look at all the facts.
I see the brave Hamas fighters have been active again trying to provoke Israel into a response - who will pay for it ? Innocent Palestinians.

Hi friend. How do you come up with your assumptions about my views here?
I am against all religious fundamentalism, catholic, islamic, jewish or whatever and racist fundamentalism like zionism. I tend to believe that as far as most commentators in politics and their servants the main media, a terrorist is normally understood to mean someone with a bomb but without a helicopter gunship.
The list and perpetrators of deaths caused by state as well as individual group terrorist actions leaves one in no doubt where the major source of innocent deaths comes from, ie the Israeli army and it's paramilitary police and mercenaries. I agree that Hamas have crimes to answer for, but lets get real here. Their crimes are miniscule in relation to the holocaust visited daily on palestinians since the zionist pogroms of 1948 that drove them from their homes in hundreds of thousands.
Israel is a terrorist state, daily practicing apartheid against it's own arab citizens, starving and brutalising hundreds of thousands of women, children and men in their concentration-camp enclaves on the West Bank and Cisgordania and murdering civil rights activists working to promote civil rights there, on a regular basis. Their murder campaigns against anyone helping palestinians to secure rights or arms to defend themselves is a continuing affront to any civilised society. They should and could stop this now and work for a peaceful solution with their arab neighbours, but never will. Why? Because they are damn good at black propoganda and selling their indefensible side of the story to people like you.
Join me in studying behind the propoganda and work to support those brave Israeli Peace Activists.

anymore

Irlandese wrote: »

Hi friend. How do you come up with your assumptions about my views here?
I am against all religious fundamentalism, catholic, islamic, jewish or whatever and racist fundamentalism like zionism. I tend to believe that as far as most commentators in politics and their servants the main media, a terrorist is normally understood to mean someone with a bomb but without a helicopter gunship.
The list and perpetrators of deaths caused by state as well as individual group terrorist actions leaves one in no doubt where the major source of innocent deaths comes from, ie the Israeli army and it's paramilitary police and mercenaries. I agree that Hamas have crimes to answer for, but lets get real here. Their crimes are miniscule in relation to the holocaust visited daily on palestinians since the zionist pogroms of 1948 that drove them from their homes in hundreds of thousands.
Israel is a terrorist state, daily practicing apartheid against it's own arab citizens, starving and brutalising hundreds of thousands of women, children and men in their concentration-camp enclaves on the West Bank and Cisgordania and murdering civil rights activists working to promote civil rights there, on a regular basis. Their murder campaigns against anyone helping palestinians to secure rights or arms to defend themselves is a continuing affront to any civilised society. They should and could stop this now and work for a peaceful solution with their arab neighbours, but never will. Why? Because they are damn good at black propoganda and selling their indefensible side of the story to people like you.
Join me in studying behind the propoganda and work to support those brave Israeli Peace Activists.

Well my friend I am happy to look behind all propoganda including the " All the evil in the middle east derives from Zionist Israel". Unfortunately there seems to a very strong objection on thases threads to look at anything evil other than Israel. For the record, Sunni and Shiite militias have killed more civilians than Israel ever has.

wes

anymore wrote: »

Well my friend I am happy to look behind all propoganda including the " All the evil in the middle east derives from Zionist Israel". Unfortunately there seems to a very strong objection on thases threads to look at anything evil other than Israel. For the record, Sunni and Shiite militias have killed more civilians than Israel ever has.

Trying to derail the thread again? You see people here want to discuss the topic at hand, and if you really want to discuss your other topic, you would start a thread as opposed to constant attempts at derailment. So why don't you start a new thread then?

Also, I don't remember a single person saying all the evil from the ME is due to Israel, but nice attempt at a straw man there.

IrishTonyO

anymore wrote: »

Well my friend I am happy to look behind all propoganda including the " All the evil in the middle east derives from Zionist Israel". Unfortunately there seems to a very strong objection on thases threads to look at anything evil other than Israel. For the record, Sunni and Shiite militias have killed more civilians than Israel ever has.

Then create threads to discuss them the reason people here are discussing Israel, is because that is what this thread is about get it????

Irlandese

anymore wrote: »

Well my friend I am happy to look behind all propoganda including the " All the evil in the middle east derives from Zionist Israel". Unfortunately there seems to a very strong objection on thases threads to look at anything evil other than Israel. For the record, Sunni and Shiite militias have killed more civilians than Israel ever has.

What record, friend?
I have to disappoint you and cite Sabra and Shatilah massacres as just one recent history example of mass genocidal slaughter of thousands of mostly palestinian women, children and elderly in the most bestial way, by Israel's paid mercenaries, the Druze Militia.
For three days the world's press watched while families were forced into houses, grenades thrown in after them and the houses bulldozed with people crying for aid inside. This happened in Lebanon and prompted a famous Israeli peace activist and poet to write the following haunting words:
" My mother and father who died in the nazi holocaust were killed again last night in our own".
Try not to invent or repeat propoganda lies designed to allow that kind of thing to happen, again and again. We have a responsibility to not support racism or genocide, from any quarter. I support peace in the middle-east and justice for all, including, in particular, Israelis. But I denounce genocide and concentration camps and state murder. Oh, sorry, does that make me a terrorist, friend?

I note you seem to be following me across threads a bit and arguing agains my points re the Pope as well. welcome. It is good to see open debate without resorting to putting plastic explosive in the hand-piece of my phone !

joesoap007

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JglKSFrhjec

anymore

Irlandese wrote: »

What record, friend?
I have to disappoint you and cite Sabra and Shatilah massacres as just one recent history example of mass genocidal slaughter of thousands of mostly palestinian women, children and elderly in the most bestial way, by Israel's paid mercenaries, the Druze Militia.
For three days the world's press watched while families were forced into houses, grenades thrown in after them and the houses bulldozed with people crying for aid inside. This happened in Lebanon and prompted a famous Israeli peace activist and poet to write the following haunting words:
" My mother and father who died in the nazi holocaust were killed again last night in our own".
Try not to invent or repeat propoganda lies designed to allow that kind of thing to happen, again and again. We have a responsibility to not support racism or genocide, from any quarter. I support peace in the middle-east and justice for all, including, in particular, Israelis. But I denounce genocide and concentration camps and state murder. Oh, sorry, does that make me a terrorist, friend?

I note you seem to be following me across threads a bit and arguing agains my points re the Pope as well. welcome. It is good to see open debate without resorting to putting plastic explosive in the hand-piece of my phone !

When you say ' recent' I thought you were going to use an example from this century and there are may to choose from.. And correct me if I am wrong, but I thought this massacre was carried out by Lebanonese Christians ? Yes israel did facilitate it :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

The Sabra and Shatila massacre (Arabic: مذبحة صبرا وشاتيلا‎ Maḏbaḥat Ṣabrā wa Shātīlā) — or Sabra and Chatila massacre — was a massacre of Palestinian and Lebanese Muslim civilians carried out between 16 and 18 September 1982 by the Kataeb Party a ChristianLebanese Forces militia group, following the assassination of Phalangist leader and president-elect Bachir Gemayel. The Israeli Defense Force (IDF), who surrounded Beirut's Palestinian refugee camps after having invaded Lebanon, allowed the Lebanese Forces militia to enter two of these refugee camps, Sabra and Shatila (33°51′40.47″N 35°30′01.50″E / 33.8612417°N 35.500417°E / 33.8612417; 35.500417). The exact number killed by the Lebanese Forces militia is disputed, with estimations running from 800 according to international sources to 3,500 according to Palestinian sources (the red cross body count was around 400, but is likely not to include all or even most of the dead bodies).URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed"][COLOR=#002bb8]citation needed[/COLOR][/URL
Regarded as a reprisal for the Damour massacre by IslamicPalestinians & Syrians a few years earlier [2], which personally impacted Elie Hobeika [3]. The view of the Sabra and Shatila killing as a revenge for the Damour massacre was asserted by the prominent writer Samir Khalaf[4], by New York Times writer Thomas Friedman [5] [6], and by author B. Gabriel who wrote that "Palestinian militiamen started the killings in 1975, long before the 1982 Sabra and Shatila massacres. Beit Mellat, Deir Achache, Damour."[7]
And could you compare the numbers killed in the Lebanin massacre with the number of those slaughtered by the Islamic Shiite and Sunni militias in the last six years in Iraq. Yes I know someone will say ' stick to the thread' but as you raised a massacre in Lebanon in the 20th century, it is fair and relevant to point out the ongoing massacres in Iraq.

I am happy to condemn all massacres regardless of who carried them and regardless of the motivation. As we speak there are Islamic suicicde bombers killing innocents in Moscow so as I suggested at the start, lets not just confine our condemnation to one party.

wes

anymore wrote: »

I am happy to condemn all massacres regardless of who carried them and regardless of the motivation. As we speak there are Islamic suicicde bombers killing innocents in Moscow so as I suggested at the start, lets not just confine our condemnation to one party.

Well, you see the thread title reads: "Israeli Apartheid", so banging on about the recent Moscow Suicide attacks would be off topic, and hence why people aren't talking about it, in this thread, which is about "Israeli Apartheid". The whole whataboutery hasn't worked the many other times you have tried it, I don't see it working this time either.

anymore

Sykes wrote: »

With the exception of 1929-1967, Hebron has had a Jewish presence for centuries/millennia. Long before Islam and long before 'Palestinians' were created.

Hebron was the scene of a massacre of Jews by 'palestinians' in 1929, long before the reestablishment of Israel or any 'occupation'.

Here is the most important part for you and propagandists like you - under the 1997 agreement (the Hebron protocol) with the 'palestinians', Israel would keep a Jewish presence in Hebron.

Perhaps you should devote more time to fact-finding.

This is the crux of the matter, whose claims to East jerusalem should have precedent and what should be the basis of adjudication ?
And why should anyone tradition have exclusive rights ? On the basis of longevity, then the Jewish ones clearly have precedence.

The Saint

anymore wrote: »

This is the crux of the matter, whose claims to East jerusalem should have precedent and what should be the basis of adjudication ?
And why should anyone tradition have exclusive rights ? On the basis of longevity, then the Jewish ones clearly have precedence.

International law and the international consensus on the resolution of the conflict overwhelming supported every year in the General Assembly should be the basis of adjudication. Also, your logic that the status of land should be determined by longevity doesn't really stand up as if this was applied to all of historic mandate Palestine then most of what is now Israel would be part of a Palestinian state.

wes

anymore wrote: »

This is the crux of the matter, whose claims to East jerusalem should have precedent and what should be the basis of adjudication ?
And why should anyone tradition have exclusive rights ? On the basis of longevity, then the Jewish ones clearly have precedence.

The post you quote talks about Hebron, and not Jerusalem. So I think you conclusion is an interesting one.

Secondly, if you read the numerous replies to that post, you would know that the Palestinian are the indigenous population, who are descended from the various people who lived there. So your whole longevity arguement kind of falls apart, as the Palestinians were there longer, than European colonists. However, that isn't basis for Palestinian claims to East Jerusalem, there claims are based in International law.

Finally, there are various UN resolutions and the International concensus for resolution of the conflict, which all say that East Jerusalem is occupied and belongs to the Palestinians.