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Israeli apartheid

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    #212
    The Saint
    Registered Users Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    anymore wrote: »
    So how many dvds showing palesinians murdering palestinians have to be posted in return ?
    Be honest, without Israel, Palestine would probably erupt into an orgy of mass killing just as Iraq has with Sunnis and ****es trying to out do each other in slaughter.
    You can take Israel out of the middle east, but you cant take genocidal murder out.
    I'm not quite sure whether I think this is racist or not. Given your expansive knowledge of the situation, can you please tell me why you think that Palestine would erupt into an orgy of mass killing. Don't get me wrong, if handled badly, another civil war could break out, but this would likely be at the hastening of outsiders.
    anymore wrote: »
    I dont necessarily disagree with you about the Isreal State, but, for example, Iran is funding a large part of the military campaign against Israel, just as much of the war against Israel has been provoked and funded by arab states down the decades. If these is to be disengagement by Israel, there must be disengagement by all others.
    it is true that Iran and Syria have been funding militant groups in Palestine. However, all Arab states, including Syria, have since 2002 offered Israel a comprehensive peace deal which Israel has ignored. As part of a such a peace agreement, the likelihood is that Syria would have to stop funding militant groups there. Anyway, most, if not all militant groups also support the 2002 initiative. Iran is another story. However, most Arab states, particularly Egypt and the Saudis, would be delighted to have Israel as an ally as they would help counter Iran's hegemonic ambitions in the region which might destabilise Arab states with large Shi'ite populations, eg. Saudi Arabia.
    anymore wrote: »
    Also for the record, Israel was forced out of its own borders by the wars of aggression waged against by ioo million Arabs or their States. Israel won , tough ! Spare me the lectures on International laws & human rights the middle east has little respect of internaional law of human rights; something Bush was able to exploit when handing over Muslims to the torture chambers of the middle east.
    It wasn't forced out of its own borders by the Palestinians. Also, if you don't think international law and human rights have a place in this arguement, I don't feel there is much point talking to you as the alternative is moral relativist vacuousness.


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    #213
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    The Saint wrote: »
    it is true that Iran and Syria have been funding militant groups in Palestine. However, all Arab states, including Syria, have since 2002 offered Israel a comprehensive peace deal which Israel has ignored.

    Iran is not an Arab state and Iranians are not Arabs. Their premier's administration has also never offered a peace deal with Israel


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    #214
    The Saint
    Registered Users Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    The jordanians certainly did nothing positive for the Palestinians either, they de facto controlled the west bank from 1948-67 and did nothing to help establish a palestinian state and went on to persecute the palestinians during Black September yet they get a remarkably easy ride for their role in the middle east.
    While part of this is accurate, it is not wholly so. After the Jordanian annexation of the West Bank, Palestinians were given full citizenship and voting rights and were treated equally as Jordanian citizens. Therefore the nature of the Jordanian occupation and the Israeli occupation have been very different.

    Trouble arose with the clashes between the PLO and King Hussein. The PLO fcuked themselves over by their actions in Jordan. King Hussain ****ed himself over by not accepting the separation of the West Bank from Jordan when most other Arab states did so. However, overall, the Palestinian experience has not been that bad in Jordan when compared to places like Lebanon.


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    #215
    The Saint
    Registered Users Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Iran is not an Arab state and Iranians are not Arabs.

    Please point out where I stated that Iran was an Arab state or that they offered a peace agreement to Israel. Re-read the paragraph again.


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    #216
    paulaa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    anymore wrote: »
    Since when has eight years of rocket attacks against civilians been regarded as ' protest' ?
    Has the UN charter been altered to accomodate this version of ' peace full protest ?
    The Palestinian leadership brought on the blockade and they are making enormous fortunes of it - just as Saddam made a fortume from the UN sanctions against Iraq. But hey, profiteering is outside the scope of the thread, right ?

    What are they supposed to do ? Lie down and take whatever havoc Israel decides to wreak on them. Would you take what they have had to put up with for the last few years ?

    Israel chose to imprison 1.5 million people in a ghetto as a way to divide the Palestinian people. Israel had strengthened Hamas as a foil to the PLO, then like the US did with Bin Laden, they didn't like it when Hamas started to think for themselves.

    As to profiteering, who is making fortunes from building on stolen land? Where is the money for reparation from Germany gone ? It certainly didn't go to all the holocaust survivors it was meant for.

    How many of Israel's top politicians are under investigation for dodgy dealings atm?

    When it comes to corruption and lining pockets, those in glasshouses....


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    #217
    beat root
    Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭beat root


    The tragedy of the people of Palestine is that their country was "given" by a foreign power to another people for the creation of a new state. The result was that many hundreds of thousands of innocent people were made permanently homeless. With every new conflict their numbers increased. How much longer is the world willing to endure this spectacle of wanton cruelty? It is abundantly clear that the refugees have every right to the homeland from which they were driven, and the denial of this right is at the heart of the continuing conflict. No people anywhere in the world would accept being expelled in masses from their own country; how can anyone require the people of Palestine to accept a punishment which nobody else would tolerate? A permanent just settlement of the refugees in their homeland is an essential ingredient of any genuine settlement in the Middle East. We are frequently told that we must sympathise with Israel because of the suffering of the Jews in Europe at the hands of the Nazis. What Israel is doing today cannot be condoned, and to invoke the horrors of the past to justify those of the present is gross hypocrisy.
    —Bertrand Russell, 31 January 1970




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    #218
    The Saint
    Registered Users Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    paulaa wrote: »
    What are they supposed to do ? Lie down and take whatever havoc Israel decides to wreak on them. Would you take what they have had to put up with for the last few years ?
    They should not be launching rockets into Israel as it is a warcrime. Using violations of international law by one side does not excuse violations by another. That is like others comparing abuses in Saudi Arabia to excuse Israel's behaviour in the oPt. It's a counterproductive arguement. Neither side should be engaging in war crimes, even though admittedly the breaches are greater on one side than the other.


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    #219
    paulaa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    anymore wrote: »
    So how many dvds showing palesinians murdering palestinians have to be posted in return ?
    Be honest, without Israel, Palestine would probably erupt into an orgy of mass killing just as Iraq has with Sunnis and ****es trying to out do each other in slaughter.
    You can take Israel out of the middle east, but you cant take genocidal murder out.

    The Palestinians managed just fine together before "The State of Israel" was foisted on them.

    At this stage Israel is almost indistinguishable from her neighbours in some respects, particularly where " genocidal murder " and civil rights are concerned.


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    #220
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    The Saint wrote: »
    While part of this is accurate, it is not wholly so. After the Jordanian annexation of the West Bank, Palestinians were given full citizenship and voting rights and were treated equally as Jordanian citizens. Therefore the nature of the Jordanian occupation and the Israeli occupation have been very different.

    Trouble arose with the clashes between the PLO and King Hussein. The PLO fcuked themselves over by their actions in Jordan. King Hussain ****ed himself over by not accepting the separation of the West Bank from Jordan when most other Arab states did so. However, overall, the Palestinian experience has not been that bad in Jordan when compared to places like Lebanon.

    Irish people were part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and given the vote and representation at westminster but that didn't stop Irish people from wanting a state of their own.

    Jordan gave up their claim to the West Bank post 67, I wonder did they realise that the palestinians were more trouble than having that land. just as Egypt gave up its claim on the gaza strip in 76, the palestinians get used by their arab neighbours as and when they want but they cast them aside when they get to be too much trouble.


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    #221
    The Saint
    Registered Users Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    Irish people were part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and given the vote and representation at westminster but that didn't stop Irish people from wanting a state of their own.
    I'm aware of this. I was just explaining the different natures of the Israeli and Jordanian occupations.
    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    Jordan gave up their claim to the West Bank post 67, I wonder did they realise that the palestinians were more trouble than having that land. just as Egypt gave up its claim on the gaza strip in 76, the palestinians get used by their arab neighbours as and when they want but they cast them aside when they get to be too much trouble.
    Jordan only gave up its claims to the West Bank in 1988, even though the Arab League stated that the PLO was the sole representatives for the Palestinian people in 1974. King Hussein was quite reluctant to cede its claims to the West Bank. I agree that many Arab states have used Palestinians in a very shameful way.


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    #222
    paulaa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    The Saint wrote: »
    They should not be launching rockets into Israel as it is a warcrime. Using violations of international law by one side does not excuse violations by another. That is like others comparing abuses in Saudi Arabia to excuse Israel's behaviour in the oPt. It's a counterproductive arguement. Neither side should be engaging in war crimes, even though admittedly the breaches are greater on one side than the other.

    Yes I agree with you, but I can see why they do it. For years they were ignored by the world and Israel was given free reign to do whatever they wished aided and abetted by their welfare donor, the US.

    No one would talk to Hamas because they were deemed a proscribed organisation the minute they were democratically elected. What would you suggest they do in Gaza to get attention and try to get the seige lifted ?


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    #223
    beat root
    Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭beat root


    For 80 years the Palestinians have watched from their refugee camps while their villages and homes are bulldozed and transformed into Jewish settlements. Why would they hate Israel?

    Israel is armed to the teeth with American weapons, even possesing nuclear weapons they developed illegally. Yet they would have the world believe that their state is in danger of imminent destruction from a rag tag militia whose last act of desperate resistance is home made rockets and suicide bombers.

    Maybe Israel will stop expanding when all the Palestinians are in the sea.


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    #224
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    beat root wrote: »
    For 80 years the Palestinians have watched from their refugee camps while their villages and homes are bulldozed and transformed into Jewish settlements. Why would they hate Israel?

    Israel is armed to the teeth with American weapons, even possesing nuclear weapons they developed illegally. Yet they would have the world believe that their state is in danger of imminent destruction from a rag tag militia whose last act of desperate resistance is home made rockets and suicide bombers.

    Maybe Israel will stop expanding when all the Palestinians are in the sea.

    You're not one for hyperbole are you?


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    #225
    beat root
    Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭beat root


    At times I am, especially when I'm watching the Dubs dissappointing me, but in this case, all things considered, probably not


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    #226
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    beat root wrote: »
    At times I am, especially when I'm watching the Dubs dissappointing me, but in this case, all things considered, probably not

    warning, potential fault with sarcasm detector :/


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    #227
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    paulaa wrote: »
    What would you suggest they do in Gaza to get attention and try to get the seige lifted ?
    Demand that the political party in power there allow an opposition party also in Gaza.


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    #228
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    anymore wrote: »
    For (.....)east.

    I never said that you did. You're evading the question. Now, try again
    Lets - just for the sake of argument - say that last month, every Palestinian male who ever gave a woman a haircut was taken out and shot by Hamas, and those previously dead were disinterred and their bodies hung.

    With that in mind, how would that make the 43 year long occupation and settlement of the occupied territories and its associated activities, by Israel, any more legitimate?


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    #229
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Demand that the political party in power there allow an opposition party also in Gaza.

    Presumably once that party could be guaranteed not to receive training and funds to launch a coup against Hamas, that could be arranged. Fatah would also have to stop the crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.


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    #230
    paulaa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Demand that the political party in power there allow an opposition party also in Gaza.

    Ok and then what, taking into consideration that these people have been left to rot for the last few years by the international community ?


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    #231
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Nodin wrote: »
    Presumably once that party could be guaranteed not to receive training and funds to launch a coup against Hamas, that could be arranged. Fatah would also have to stop the crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

    None of that justifies the way Hamas rule Gaza as they do.
    Its a three-way problem and is eons from solution.
    I doubt very much Hamas ceding any ground "could be arranged" either.


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    #232
    beat root
    Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭beat root


    JustinDee wrote: »
    None of that justifies the way Hamas rule Gaza as they do.
    Its a three-way problem and is eons from solution.
    I doubt very much Hamas ceding any ground "could be arranged" either.

     In January 2006, Hamas was successful in the democratic Palestinian parliamentary elections, taking 76 of the 132 seats in the chamber, while the previous ruling Fatah party took 43.After Hamas's election victory, violent and non-violent conflicts arose between Hamas and Fatah. Following the Battle of Gaza in June 2007, elected Hamas officials were ousted from their positions in the Palestinian National Authority government in the West Bank and replaced by rival Fatah members and independents. Hamas retained control of Gaza which it has an elected right to. Fatah has the west bank which it seized in a coup. On June 18, 2007, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas (Fatah) issued a decree outlawing the Hamas. Israel then immediately imposed an economic blockade on Gaza. America branded Hamas terrorists because they didn’t like the initial elections results, but wants to see Fatah in power who have no democratic mandate.

    So this begs the following questions

    • Who has followed the path of democrarcy to achieve power and who has not?
    • Why have Fatah outlawed Hamas in the West Bank and who will cede ground?
    • Why did the Palestinians vote in an extremist group like Hamas?


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    #233
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    Nodin wrote: »
    I never said that you did. You're evading the question. Now, try again

    Dont you think the situation is complicated enought without introducing hypothetical situations ?
    Trying using any of the many innocent Hama murder victims.


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    #234
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    beat root wrote: »
    Who has followed the path of democrarcy to achieve power and who has not?
    Neither party. Thats why there is no opposition in Gaza and how Hamas rule it, not run it.
    beat root wrote: »
    Why have Fatah outlawed Hamas in the West Bank and who will cede ground?
    The same reasons for the other doing the same.
    Neither will cede ground. This is part of the problem.
    beat root wrote: »
    Why did the Palestinians vote in an extremist group like Hamas?
    Not even half of the Palestinians did. People tend to take sides in a civil war, by the way.


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    #235
    joesoap007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 152 ✭✭joesoap007


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Demand that the political party in power there allow an opposition party also in Gaza.



    who the plo Fatah they sold out to the us thats why their was a civil war..
    road map for peace was a sell out


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    #236
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    wes wrote: »
    The situations are hardly the same. For one thing, I doubt we would give up Dublin, if Unionists suddendly decided to start colonising it.

    Let me put it to you simple. Under international law, East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza belong to the Palestinians. The sooner Zionists adn there apologists accept this reality, the sooner there will be peace. The constant ongoing land theft is making a 2 state solution impossible. It is the Zionists that need to give up there delusions of a greater Israel, and not the Palestinians, who have already given up there claim to the majority of there stolen home.


    Try to look on it as Compulsory Land Acquisition ! You know every State operates this type of land grab. It is for the greater good ;)


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    #237
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    anymore wrote: »
    Dont you (....)victims.

    I'm asking you to follow through on the thinking displayed in your posts on this thread, including that one. Try again -

    Lets - just for the sake of argument - say that last month, every Palestinian male who ever gave a woman a haircut was taken out and shot by Hamas, and those previously dead were disinterred and their bodies hung.

    With that in mind, how would that make the 43 year long occupation and settlement of the occupied territories and its associated activities, by Israel, any more legitimate?


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    #238
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    anymore wrote: »
    Try to look on it as Compulsory Land Acquisition ! You know every State operates this type of land grab. It is for the greater good ;)

    These are areas that aren't part of the Israeli state.


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    #239
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    beat root wrote: »

     In January 2006, Hamas was successful in the democratic Palestinian parliamentary elections, taking 76 of the 132 seats in the chamber, while the previous ruling Fatah party took 43.After Hamas's election victory, violent and non-violent conflicts arose between Hamas and Fatah. Following the Battle of Gaza in June 2007, elected Hamas officials were ousted from their positions in the Palestinian National Authority government in the West Bank and replaced by rival Fatah members and independents. Hamas retained control of Gaza which it has an elected right to. Fatah has the west bank which it seized in a coup. On June 18, 2007, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas (Fatah) issued a decree outlawing the Hamas. Israel then immediately imposed an economic blockade on Gaza. America branded Hamas terrorists because they didn’t like the initial elections results, but wants to see Fatah in power who have no democratic mandate.

    So this begs the following questions

    • Who has followed the path of democrarcy to achieve power and who has not?
    • Why have Fatah outlawed Hamas in the West Bank and who will cede ground?
    • Why did the Palestinians vote in an extremist group like Hamas?

    Yeah Fatah seized the west bank...after Hamas seized the Gaza strip. They are both violent organizations more interested in power than their peoples welfare. Trying to make one out to be "good" and one out to be "bad" is foolish.


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    #240
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    Nodin wrote: »
    I'm asking you to follow through on the thinking displayed in your posts on this thread, including that one. Try again -

    Well you asked for ' follow through thinking in relation to Israel, so here goes......

    Morocco's occupation of the Western Sahara and the acceptance of it by their fellow Muslim States in the Middle East, makes Israel's present, and of course temporary, security led occupation of a small part of Jerusalem, seem like the norm rather than the exception.
    The manner in which both Sunni and Shiite militants have forced thousands of fellow Iraqis from their traditional homes and the huge numbers of innocents( Up to one hundred thousand) who have been slaughtered by these militants, make the Israelis seem quite restrained in comparision.

    Let me anticipate your answer :
    • That not the question I asked ! (meaning that is not the answer I want)
    • Thats off topic -
    • Thats irrelevant ....etc


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    #241
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    Nodin wrote: »
    These are areas that aren't part of the Israeli state.
    Belfast and Derry are not part of the Republic, but we have accepted it and got on with life.


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