What causes broadband to drop?

P. Breathnach

I used to have reliable broadband with BT, albeit at a slow 1mbps because of distance from the exchange. The service dropped occasionally, perhaps once a week on average, and usually not for long.

Then I got sold to Vodafone, and have been experiencing lots of drops. Since 1 January I think the only days that I did not experience drops were days when I was not here. Most days I experience more than one interruption. The outages have lasted varying amounts of time, from a couple of minutes to three hours. It's a bit worrying if I want to transact business online, such as booking flights; what happens if the connection is dropped in the middle of a transaction?

I have been on to Vodafone tech support a good deal. They have tested the line several times, and found nothing wrong. One technician (who, to be fair, sounded knowledgeable and seemed keen to get things right for me) said that line tests suggested that my router might be underperforming, and asked if I had another one available. As it happened, I had -- still in its box. I set it up under his direction, and away we went.

And I am still getting dropped connections, but reconnection seems, on average, a bit faster.

Hence my question: if the line is okay, the router is okay, my PC setup is okay (unchanged since the good old days when things worked satisfactorily), then what is the likely explanation for the drops? Is it something at the Vodafone end?

The reason I ask is that I am now considering changing my ISP, but the main options available to me do the same as Vodafone: they are effectively resellers. My fear is that migrating to another ISP might leave me no better off.

Thoughts on the problem welcome. [How paranoid I have become: I look at the router lights before hitting "submit".]

dub45

Line stats?

P. Breathnach

dub45 wrote: »

Line stats?

Max Allowed Speed (kbps) 1024 128
SN Margin (dB) 11.50 21.00
Line Attenuation (dB) 54.00 31.50
CRC Errors 7382 318

anoble66

thats why your line is dropping, your getting errors on the line. Once you get to a certain amount of errors the dslam will drop the connection.

You need to ring your provider and get them to do a line check

cpu.dude

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Max Allowed Speed (kbps) 1024 128
SN Margin (dB) 11.50 21.00
Line Attenuation (dB) 54.00 31.50
CRC Errors 7382 318

CRC errors are usually caused by internal setup issues.

Disconnect everything off your sockets in the house (including phones, faxes, filters, sky, alarms etc.) and connect only the router to the main telephone point in the house and check the stats again.

Cabaal

Op based on amount of errors do this before you even bother ringing your ISP

Basic Troubleshoot for ADSL Broadband Issues
If you find your you've experiencing any of the issues on the list below then this is recommended reading:
- Total loss of ADSL service
- Experiencing a intermittent ADSL service
- Phone doesn't work right with Broadband equipment connected
- Broadband stopped working when you got Sky installed
- Broadband disconnects when your phone rings
- Both your phone and/or broadband fails to works when Broadband equipment is connected

Here are some basic steps you should do before calling your Internet Service Provider or creating a thread on boards.ie regarding your problem .

These steps apply regardless of your ADSL provider, so weather your using Eircom, BT, Smart or Imagine its recommended you follow these steps to save yourself time and possibly money!

I can't stress enough that its VERY IMPORTANT, that any phones, fax, sky digital boxes, credit card machines, monitored alarms that use your phone line or any device connected to your phone line MUST be corrected filtered with a ADSL microfilter.


Step 1. Disconnect everything from the phoneline, I mean everything...all phones, sky digibox box's, fax machine, modem and filters.


Step 2. Unplug the ADSL modem or router from the power and connect it directly into the Eircom master socket, without a filter, then power it up. Check the sync speed again for any improvement.

If its a disconnection problem you may need to test your connection for awhile.

If you experienced a total loss of sync and you've regained sync by following the above then its recommended you reconnect everything one at a time using ADSL filters correctly so you can identify the cause of the connection problem.


Step 3. If there is still no improvement, try a different phone cable from the modem to the phone socket.


Step 4. If you can try a different phone socket in your home.


Step 5. If you can try a different ADSL modem or router.


Step 6. Finally disconnect all extension sockets in the house, if possible, and check internal phone wiring.


What to do now?
Thats really as much as you can do yourself. If the problem still persists it's most likely a line fault of an exchange fault and as such you should call your ISP and explain what you have already tested, they can then test the line and raise a fault ticket to investigate the issue.


Why am I doing this?
The reason for checking at the main socket and disconnecting all non ADSL equipment (eg: phones, fax's, sky etc) is so you can rule out any cause of your problem that are not classed as a fault by your ISP.

Should an engineer be dispatched to your home and find that for example you have a Sky Digital box connected to your phone line without an ADSL filter and this was the cause of your connection/disconnection problem could result in a engineer callout charge that you are liable to pay!

Its also a good idea to check all of the above so you don't waste time calling your ISP's support line while they talk you through checking basic things, as such this will also save your money on your phone bill


How to deal with your ISP:
So you have a tech or billing issue with your ISP and want it resolved, don't loose the head!
Instead I'd recommend reading some tips here - http://consumerist.com/341815/how-to-mind-control-customer-service-reps

P. Breathnach

anoble66 wrote: »

thats why your line is dropping, your getting errors on the line. Once you get to a certain amount of errors the dslam will drop the connection.

You need to ring your provider and get them to do a line check

Hah! So I have a bad quality line, is that it? How bad? [My connection has been up for less than 3 hours, and I have 10,578 CRC errors downstream.]

Is the diagnosis supported by the fact that I experience a lot of static on the phone?

Vodafone tech support people have run several tests on the line (sometimes with everything at my end unplugged, sometimes not) and failed to find a problem other than pointing to questionable router performance.

Should I make a log of CRC Errors? Does the error counter reset to zero when the connection drops?

It's beginning to look as if I will need to escalate things with Vodafone. I appreciate that tech support staff need to look first at the possibility that problems are caused by users, because that is often the case, but they seem to me to be unduly slow to accept the possibility that the problem might lie elsewhere.

[What is DSLAM? DSL something, I suppose.]

Thank you for your input.

[While I was composing this, answering the phone, and making coffee, cpu.dude's and Cabaal's posts arrived. I'll read and act on them before going anywhere else. Thank you, people.]

P. Breathnach

Okay, I did most of what was recommended.

Unplugged everything. Put a new telehone lead directly into the only phone socket in the house and the router, and used a new Ethernet cable to link the router to the PC. I didn't check any wiring, because I don't know about wiring phone sockets.

After about 12 minutes I had 678 CRC errors downstream and 7 upstream (not much actual stuff happening, just refreshed this page). Is it pointing towards a bad phone line?

anoble66

If your getting static on the line then I am pretty confident it is a line fault, but could be worth checking your adsl filters and following the advice posted by cabaal and cpu.dude.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Hah! So I have a bad quality line, is that it? How bad? [My connection has been up for less than 3 hours, and I have 10,578 CRC errors downstream.]

Is the diagnosis supported by the fact that I experience a lot of static on the phone?

Vodafone tech support people have run several tests on the line (sometimes with everything at my end unplugged, sometimes not) and failed to find a problem other than pointing to questionable router performance.

Should I make a log of CRC Errors? Does the error counter reset to zero when the connection drops?

It's beginning to look as if I will need to escalate things with Vodafone. I appreciate that tech support staff need to look first at the possibility that problems are caused by users, because that is often the case, but they seem to me to be unduly slow to accept the possibility that the problem might lie elsewhere.

[What is DSLAM? DSL something, I suppose.]

Thank you for your input.

[While I was composing this, answering the phone, and making coffee, cpu.dude's and Cabaal's posts arrived. I'll read and act on them before going anywhere else. Thank you, people.]

cpu.dude

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Okay, I did most of what was recommended.

Unplugged everything. Put a new telehone lead directly into the only phone socket in the house and the router, and used a new Ethernet cable to link the router to the PC. I didn't check any wiring, because I don't know about wiring phone sockets.

After about 12 minutes I had 678 CRC errors downstream and 7 upstream (not much actual stuff happening, just refreshed this page). Is it pointing towards a bad phone line?

You need to disconnect absolutely everything, make sure especially that no Sky boxes are connected (the engineers have a tendancy to hard wire them into the back of the phone sockets) and if that is the case, disconnect them on the Sky box end.

If your still getting all those errors, it could be a PSTN issue (telephone line) because with an attenuation of 54dB (although high), a stable 1MB line is still possible. After you do this troubleshooting, connected only a cabled phone (not cordless) and listen at high volume and see if you get any static, interferrence, lines crossing or noise on the line, this can affect the BB in which a PSTN fault will need to be logged by VF.

P. Breathnach

anoble66 wrote: »

If your getting static on the line then I am pretty confident it is a line fault, but could be worth checking your adsl filters and following the advice posted by cabaal and cpu.dude.

My setup was simple: one telephone socket, splitter/filter. I have restored my original setup with a different splitter/filter. Still getting lots of errors.

I presume that a number of CRC errors is not a serious problem, that data is re-sent, and that the effect is a slowing down of my effective communication. The question is what level of error counts as normal or acceptable.

About eight minutes of a 1024/128 connection, and I get downstream CRC Errors of 492, upstream 7. How bad is that?

anoble66

On a healthy line / setup you will have zero CRC errors. Ring VF and tell them about the static on the line

P. Breathnach wrote: »

My setup was simple: one telephone socket, splitter/filter. I have restored my original setup with a different splitter/filter. Still getting lots of errors.

I presume that a number of CRC errors is not a serious problem, that data is re-sent, and that the effect is a slowing down of my effective communication. The question is what level of error counts as normal or acceptable.

About eight minutes of a 1024/128 connection, and I get downstream CRC Errors of 492, upstream 7. How bad is that?

cpu.dude

anoble66 wrote: »

On a healthy line / setup you will have zero CRC errors. Ring VF and tell them about the static on the line

Exactly, they will log a fault to Eircom which will be resolved most likely in about 2 days.

It is possible that it's an internal issue and you may be charged if Eircom have to come to your house but this is all theoritical for now, hopefully it's just a dodgy exposed cable somewhere.

OP, may I suggest you ask your neighbour about their line stats and see if they get many CRC errors as well because if that's the case, it's most likely Eircoms lines outside the house.

P. Breathnach

This discussion is going faster than I am! I am really grateful for all the advice.

cpu.dude wrote: »

You need to disconnect absolutely everything, make sure especially that no Sky boxes are connected (the engineers have a tendancy to hard wire them into the back of the phone sockets) and if that is the case, disconnect them on the Sky box end.

If your still getting all those errors, it could be a PSTN issue (telephone line) because with an attenuation of 54dB (although high), a stable 1MB line is still possible. After you do this troubleshooting, connected only a cabled phone (not cordless) and listen at high volume and see if you get any static, interferrence, lines crossing or noise on the line, this can affect the BB in which a PSTN fault will need to be logged by VF.

No Sky or Homewatch or anything of that nature. There is a lower level of static on the cabled phone on the cordless I was using, but the line still does not sound clean. In any event, I go back to the fact that my setup used to work acceptably well: I changed nothing, and it no longer works properly.

anoble66 wrote: »

On a healthy line / setup you will have zero CRC errors. Ring VF and tell them about the static on the line

So I should hope for zero errors, and I suppose that a small number can be ignored on the basis that little glitches can happen.

I have told Vodafone about the static, and they have told me that they checked the line and it shows green.

This whole thing of CRC errors is new to me; I think the Voyager 2110 that I was using did not report them (or I didn't see where they were reported). It does seem like a useful weapon in my armoury.

I have the impression that Vodafone are fairly reluctant to refer line quality questions to Eircom. I suppose that is because of complicated relationships because Eircom is a supplier and a competitor at the same time. I think that I might need to escalate things with Vodafone.

dub45

What is the state of your internal wiring? Old new?

Remember too line stats are not constant and can be affected by weather etc snr can vary over the course of the day.

cpu.dude

P. Breathnach wrote: »

This discussion is going faster than I am! I am really grateful for all the advice.



No Sky or Homewatch or anything of that nature. There is a lower level of static on the cabled phone on the cordless I was using, but the line still does not sound clean. In any event, I go back to the fact that my setup used to work acceptably well: I changed nothing, and it no longer works properly.



So I should hope for zero errors, and I suppose that a small number can be ignored on the basis that little glitches can happen.

I have told Vodafone about the static, and they have told me that they checked the line and it shows green.

This whole thing of CRC errors is new to me; I think the Voyager 2110 that I was using did not report them (or I didn't see where they were reported). It does seem like a useful weapon in my armoury.

I have the impression that Vodafone are fairly reluctant to refer line quality questions to Eircom. I suppose that is because of complicated relationships because Eircom is a supplier and a competitor at the same time. I think that I might need to escalate things with Vodafone.

Since the line is testing green, it doesn't mean it's not faulty - it just means that you could be susceptible to pay a small fee for the repairs if they are internal (if it's necessary, so be it). Just request that the fault be logged anyway and that you understand that there may be costs to it.

The Voyager does show CRC errors, you just need to click "More Information". Theoretically, your line should have absolutely no CRC erros, double figures are ok but yours are going into the 100's quite quickly so there is definately an issue lying there somewhere - it's up to Eircom to find it now. Report static on the line when talking to VF.

P. Breathnach

dub45 wrote: »

What is the state of your internal wiring? Old new?

Remember too line stats are not constant and can be affected by weather etc snr can vary over the course of the day.

The wiring has been there a long time, and never touched by anybody other than Eircom staff. I had ISDN at one time, and my socket is in the ISDN box. I have tried to spot patterns, and cannot relate breaks to anything in particular, like weather conditions or time of day. [It just dropped as I was typing this, and I used the "Restart Connection" button to get it going again.]

cpu.dude wrote: »

Since the line is testing green, it doesn't mean it's not faulty - it just means that you could be susceptible to pay a small fee for the repairs if they are internal (if it's necessary, so be it). Just request that the fault be logged anyway and that you understand that there may be costs to it.

That's worth knowing. I thought that testing green meant that the line was free of faults. Some tech support people certainly speak as if that is the case. I take it now that all it might mean is that it is not obviously faulty. Yes, I agree it is fair that if the fault is on my side of the Eircom connection I should pay for repairs, and I don't mind that. I happen to be convinced that it is on their side, and today's researches add to that belief.

The Voyager does show CRC errors, you just need to click "More Information".

That shows how little I know (and why I am asking questions here)! Perhaps tech support staff should have talked me to that point when trying to identify where the fault lay. One nice lady spent the best part of an hour checking through a range of settings in my PC. It could have saved us both some time had we checked for CRC errors first!

Theoretically, your line should have absolutely no CRC erros, double figures are ok but yours are going into the 100's quite quickly so there is definately an issue lying there somewhere - it's up to Eircom to find it now. Report static on the line when talking to VF.

At this stage, I want things in some recorded form. No more phone calls to tech support. It's email now.

Thanks, everybody, for the help. I'll let you know how I get on, in the hope that a report back might help the next unfortunate.

the_law

It certainly used be the case that Eircom weren't obligated to improve lines for DSL... When my home failed the line checker for broadband (8 years ago or more) and everyone on my street passed, I tried complaining about this - no luck.

I then took advice from a family member who works for Eircom, and logged a fault with the voice service saying that speech was not clear and of low volume.

Two weeks later someone had clearly tightened a connection somewhere, and broadband was miraculously available. It remained rock solid for years after...

joanmul

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Max Allowed Speed (kbps) 1024 128
SN Margin (dB) 11.50 21.00
Line Attenuation (dB) 54.00 31.50
CRC Errors 7382 318

Hi P Breathnach. How do you get the stats up? I'm having trouble with dropped connections too.

P. Breathnach

joanmul wrote: »

Hi P Breathnach. How do you get the stats up? I'm having trouble with dropped connections too.

Don't consult me as if I were an expert! I'm scrabbling with my fingertips.

For a Netopia router:
enter 192.168.1.254 in the address bar of your browser. This is the address of the router, so basically you are talking to it.
On the left of the screen you have a menu: select "Expert Mode" [yeah, overstating things a bit, I know] and confirm your choice.
On the next menu, select "Statistics". That gives you sub-menus. Select "DSL" and there you are.

If it's a different router, it will be a different challenge. For example, for the Voyager 2110 the address would be 192.168.1.1, and the options are a bit different.

P. Breathnach

P. Breathnach wrote: »

... At this stage, I want things in some recorded form. No more phone calls to tech support. It's email now.

Thanks, everybody, for the help. I'll let you know how I get on, in the hope that a report back might help the next unfortunate.

Progress report: sent email yesterday about 8.30 pm; it went into a black hole, not even an auto-response.

anoble66

you want to be ringing them.....emails are useless...too easy to just ignore. You can always follow up with an email once you have a fault ref number or something

dub45

joanmul wrote: »

Hi P Breathnach. How do you get the stats up? I'm having trouble with dropped connections too.

Fair few makes listed here:

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats.htm#how_linestats

P. Breathnach

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Progress report: sent email yesterday about 8.30 pm; it went into a black hole, not even an auto-response.

Next progress report:
- I caused a delay in VF's reaction because of a typo -- I got my own phone number wrong, so we had an extra exchange of emails.
- An Eircom technician called to the house on Saturday, cast his eye over the internal wiring (Eircom's bit of it), said it looked a bit untidy, and renewed bits of it, ending with a new connector box with both phone and data sockets and with microfilter incorporated; he also checked connections where the line entered the house and at the pole outside; he even trimmed a branch off a tree that might brush against the line on a windy day. Line attenuation and S/NR improved marginally. CRC errors are still happening at the rate of 50-60 per minute. There have been fewer dropped connections (but, of course, one happened in the middle of a financial transaction -- alarming, but no damage done).
- I had a phone call from Perlico Tech Support (I have been passed from BT to Vodafone, the work on the connection is done by Eircom, and the follow-up call is from Perlico: I am waiting for Aer Lingus to get involved in this saga). They will make another report to Eircom, suggesting that the problem is between to pole outside the house and the exchange.

Despite all the problems, the speed of my connection is remarkably constant. On about 20 tests, I have got between 0.85 and 0.88 mbps on a 1mbps connection; ping tests are .81 to .83 ms. So when it works, it's fine. My only problem is those damn breaks in connection.

makeorbrake

P. Breathnach - I hope you don't mind if I bail in here - as i'm having (sort of ) similar issues.
I'm with Smart - having been a relatively happy BT customer (of 3+ years) and a temporary vodafone customer previously. Have a few disconnects per day. However, don't see any CRC errors. Then again not sure what i'm looking at. Can anyone make any sense out of this?:
Line Mode G.DMT
Line State Show Time
Latency Type Interleave
Line Up Time 00:00:42:00
Line Coding Trellis On
Line Up Count 1

Statistics Downstream / Upstream
Line Rate 3072 Kbps 384 Kbps
Noise Margin 20.6 dB 15.0 dB
Line Attenuation 21.0 dB 13.0 dB
Output Power 1.9 dBm 8.1 dBm
K (number of bytes in DMT frame) 97 13
R (number of check bytes in RS code word) 0 0
S (RS code word size in DMT frame) 1 1
D (interleaver depth) 1 1
Super Frames 148207 148205
Super Frame Errors 0 0
RS Words 0 0
RS Correctable Errors 0 0
RS Uncorrectable Errors 0 0
HEC Errors 0 0
OCD Errors 0 0
LCD Errors 0 0
ES Errors 0 0
I only have the router plugged in - had phone connected to other slot in filter - but have even removed that now to see if it makes any difference over the next 24 hours. No alarams, skybox, etc connected.

colmcc2

Has there been any updates on either makeorbreak or P Breathnach's problems around intermittent broadband? I was a BT broadband customer with a good Netgear wireless router with N speed. Soon after the 'forced' swtich to Vodafone, my broadband fell over overnight and I couldn't get it going. Folloiwng some calls with VF support, I was able to configure the settings and got my connection back (mid March)
Since then, my connection dies almost every night, and I have to pug the modem on and off a few times to resurrect the connection.
VF support are saying the phone line is fine and the problem is with the router.
This makes no sense as it never died the before the switch from BT to VF. I am convinced that VF have tweaked something and the all of us users are crawling around blind, fixing this, tweaking that and to no avail.
There is no way the router suddenly has started to fall over on it's own, without some help from VF.

makeorbrake

colmcc2 wrote: »

Has there been any updates on either makeorbreak or P Breathnach's problems around intermittent broadband? .

Sorry mate - I've only come across your post now. My smart connection went fine when they switched me back to the original profile I was on for 3 weeks solid. Then, it started to spass out again. That was it - simply couldn't work with it anymore - so all the details went in to UTV yesterday for the switchover. If it was a line issue, we will see soon enough.

jay93

Downstream Upstream Max Allowed Speed (kbps) 672 128 SN Margin (dB) 4.60 21.00 Line Attenuation (dB) 56.50 31.50 CRC Errors 6864 31
this is a very bad line and it never drops out at all the SN Margin is moving up and down every second its a 1mb eircom line and its muck at the moment downstream is at 672kbps its only because of the distance to the exchange nothing can be done its my mates internet my line has great stats can support eircoms 24mb service no problem max of 19mb id say