'Baby blues aren't just for women'

Tabnabs

THAT'S MEN: New arrival puts pressure on relationships, writes PADRAIG O'MORAIN

POST-NATAL depression in women is accepted without argument. But fathers can also become depressed following the birth of a child and this fact needs more recognition than it gets.

As with depression in mothers, depression in fathers can have an adverse effect on children’s emotional and psychological development. That’s why mothers and fathers should be willing to seek help if they are depressed.

Such research as there has been into paternal depression suggests that anything from

1 per cent to 25 per cent of fathers may become depressed. The variations in these figures highlight how little research has taken place, according to Prof James F Paulson of the Eastern Virginia Medical School, writing in Psychiatric Times.

This might be due to the belief that post-natal depression in women is caused by hormonal changes and such changes don’t occur in the fathers. Prof Paulson is unimpressed by the quality of the research behind this theory. If other factors – stress, previous depression, a poor relationship with the other parent for instance – are behind depression in mothers, then the same factors could explain depression in fathers.

Key to the presence of post-natal depression in fathers is the quality of the relationship between the parents. If this relationship is poor, the chances of depression in the father (and, I imagine, in the mother, rise).

Unfortunately, there is evidence that the experience of love and intimacy between parents is less satisfactory in the three years after the beginning of parenthood than before. Conflict increases as does ambivalence about the relationship.

The fall in the quality of the relationship is especially high in first-time parents. Many marriage counsellors regard the birth of the first child as a crisis point in the marriage. If the mother is depressed, the father may also be more likely to be depressed.

Depression in a parent means less cuddling and interaction for the baby. Babies need intense interaction to get through their developmental stages and the absence of that makes it harder for them.

What all this means is that new parents need to pay plenty of attention to their relationship as a couple and not to let that relationship get lost in the intensity of minding baby.

If one parent is depressed, the other should take care not to get drawn into that mood. And family, doctors, nurses and others in the vicinity of the couple need to be aware that depression can affect the new father as well as the new mother.

source

I don't know about depression, I can only remember the fatigue!

nesf

Conversely, in parents with bipolar the birth can trigger a mania (followed afterwards by a depression). I'm wary myself of overdiagnosis of depression, fatigue due to sleep loss at the beginning of parenthood isn't depression, it's a perfectly normal reaction to a disturbed sleep pattern and so on.

Khannie

Dyflin wrote: »

I can only remember the fatigue!

Jaysus....I can't remember anything right now. I'm a flippin' MESS.

llester

what a load of poppy cock!

PND in women is caused from lowering hormone levels, the trauma of childbirth, the stress of dealing with a newborn and trying to recover from childbirth.

Men suffer tiredness, nowt more. Get over it!

Sleepy

Men suffer tiredness, trying to placate a cranky partner, a lack of sex for a couple of months and if it's the first child a complete change of lifestyle and coming to terms with the fact that they've completely given up their freedom. Not saying that women don't have to deal with all this (and more) too, but attitudes like that llester, no matter how flippantly meant, don't help.

I agree with nesf that it's a natural reaction to changing circumstances rather than clinical depression but I do feel that the difficulties a man goes through at this time are completely swept aside in order not to take from the martyrdom some women like to promote of the female experience of a new child.

metrovelvet

Martyrdom? That's not nice. It's extremely hard going. Its torture.

littlebug

I have to say that bar the actual physical pain of childbirth my husband suffered from the exhaustion and stress just as much as I did. In fact, first time round I would say he suffered more. However, neither of us were clinically depressed and the world became a better place (eventually) when sleep resumed.


ETA: I'm not sure that "suffered" is the right word.... maybe "struggled with" is better.

Sleepy

metrovelvet wrote: »

Martyrdom? That's not nice. It's extremely hard going. Its torture.

I did state in my post that I understand that women go through more than men in childbirth, it'd be pretty facetious to suggest they don't.

In the case of an unusually difficult pregnancy / labour e.g. an emergency c-section or protracted delivery I can sympathise but a normal pregnancy and delivery, is let's face it, exactly the fundamental purpose the female body has evolved to carry out. Some women seem to expect the world to stop turning because they've had an elective c-section or a normal delivery and think the fact they're having a difficulties invalidates any difficulties their partner may be having adjusting to life with a newborn. I see this as being over-dramatic and selfish so I labeled it martyrdom...

Do you disagree that some women behave like this? or is it just my use of the word martyrdom in this context? Because I could take issue with your use of the word 'torture' here too

cbyrd

I would be more of the mindset that its more lack of sleep and change of lifestyle that causes this "depression" although its a common mis-diagnosis that a sad mood is depression,by doctors aswell. i think we're all too quick to put a label on something we don't understand. go a few months baby settled sleeping well and i wonder if the symptoms would be the same?? I've suffered 'depression' been medicated for 3 years and then found out it was the contraceptive pill that caused it,so its not always straight forward.

llester

Sleepy wrote: »

Men suffer tiredness, trying to placate a cranky partner, a lack of sex for a couple of months and if it's the first child a complete change of lifestyle and coming to terms with the fact that they've completely given up their freedom. Not saying that women don't have to deal with all this (and more) too, but attitudes like that llester, no matter how flippantly meant, don't help.

I agree with nesf that it's a natural reaction to changing circumstances rather than clinical depression but I do feel that the difficulties a man goes through at this time are completely swept aside in order not to take from the martyrdom some women like to promote of the female experience of a new child.

Martyrdom? lol No wonder your o/h is cranky :D

You said it right when you said women have to deal with everything a man has to deal with, plus a whole lot more. Physical recovery, hormonal changes. If your o/h swept your needs under the carpet that is unfortunate, but that doesn't even compare to what she's had to face. But martyrdom it ain't, it is fact, so deal with it.

llester

Sleepy wrote: »

I did state in my post that I understand that women go through more than men in childbirth, it'd be pretty facetious to suggest they don't.

In the case of an unusually difficult pregnancy / labour e.g. an emergency c-section or protracted delivery I can sympathise but a normal pregnancy and delivery, is let's face it, exactly the fundamental purpose the female body has evolved to carry out. Some women seem to expect the world to stop turning because they've had an elective c-section or a normal delivery and think the fact they're having a difficulties invalidates any difficulties their partner may be having adjusting to life with a newborn. I see this as being over-dramatic and selfish so I labeled it martyrdom...

Do you disagree that some women behave like this? or is it just my use of the word martyrdom in this context? Because I could take issue with your use of the word 'torture' here too

who is invalidating anything? We're not talking about invalidating anything a man goes through, we're talking about defining it as something which it is not. Difficulties, yes. Tiredness, yes. Stress, yes. Baby blues, no.

metrovelvet

Sleepy wrote: »

I did state in my post that I understand that women go through more than men in childbirth, it'd be pretty facetious to suggest they don't.

In the case of an unusually difficult pregnancy / labour e.g. an emergency c-section or protracted delivery I can sympathise but a normal pregnancy and delivery, is let's face it, exactly the fundamental purpose the female body has evolved to carry out. Some women seem to expect the world to stop turning because they've had an elective c-section or a normal delivery and think the fact they're having a difficulties invalidates any difficulties their partner may be having adjusting to life with a newborn. I see this as being over-dramatic and selfish so I labeled it martyrdom...

Do you disagree that some women behave like this? or is it just my use of the word martyrdom in this context? Because I could take issue with your use of the word 'torture' here too

The hormonal crash, the physical toll, the anemia and blood loss,combined with chronic sleep deprivation and very little time to eat anything over an extended period of time are similar to methods employed in torture. Maybe its impossible to understand until you have been through it yourself. But try to be a little more understanding.

cbyrd

Ah Sleepy no disrespect, and i'm surprised you have gotten away with it:D but there is no such thing as a 'normal pregnancy or delivery' from a medical point of view no complications is described as normal, but when a womans body is being taken over by what is essentially a parasite for 9-10 months the immune system is compromised the heart lungs are working twice as hard and you can't eat for indigestion and sickness, then you've the physial and mental trauma of pushing watermelon out the space of a nasal cavity, i wouldn't call it normal:D it's still fresh in my mind!!

my wonderful son is sleeping all night from 12 days old, he's 6 weeks old today, i cannot tell you how different we feel compared to our first who didn't sleep the night through til she was 3..:eek: the rows and stress we suffered for the first year nearly ruined us, we sleep more now and we laugh more now, and i do think the first child is so different to the rest..you're more relaxed with a second or third baby..

Sleepy

llester wrote: »

Martyrdom? lol No wonder your o/h is cranky :D

You said it right when you said women have to deal with everything a man has to deal with, plus a whole lot more. Physical recovery, hormonal changes. If your o/h swept your needs under the carpet that is unfortunate, but that doesn't even compare to what she's had to face. But martyrdom it ain't, it is fact, so deal with it.

My o/h was waited on hand and foot during her pregnancy and actually had quite an easy delivery. We had some rows in baby's first few months from both of us suffering from sleep exhaustion but she never swept the fact that I was having difficulties too under the carpet. It was your 'tiredness - nowt else' nonsense in your first post in this thread that I was referring to as ignoring the difficulties a man goes through at the time.

The definition of Martyrdom is dying for a cause not going through childbirth. Saying something is a fact doesn't make it so.

llester wrote: »

who is invalidating anything? We're not talking about invalidating anything a man goes through, we're talking about defining it as something which it is not. Difficulties, yes. Tiredness, yes. Stress, yes. Baby blues, no.

You were in your first post tbh.

In general, 'Baby blues', seems to me to refer to all the difficulties both parents go through with a new baby as much as it does to post natal recovery etc.

metrovelvet wrote: »

The hormonal crash, the physical toll, the anemia and blood loss,combined with chronic sleep deprivation and very little time to eat anything over an extended period of time are similar to methods employed in torture. Maybe its impossible to understand until you have been through it yourself. But try to be a little more understanding.

I wasn't trying to demean it in the least. My issue with the word 'torture' was one of intent, it makes it sound like a woman's partner has gotten her pregnant in order in order to cause pain rather than to bring a new life into the world. Nowhere have I said that childbirth is a pleasant experience for a woman. I've been present in a delivery room and regularly took my partner's "night" for the night feeds because I knew she needed the sleep more than I did. It just pisses me off when women play the 'we have it so hard, you men got off easy' card to dismiss any difficulties men have in life.

cbyrd wrote: »

Ah Sleepy no disrespect, and i'm surprised you have gotten away with it:D but there is no such thing as a 'normal pregnancy or delivery' from a medical point of view no complications is described as normal, but when a womans body is being taken over by what is essentially a parasite for 9-10 months the immune system is compromised the heart lungs are working twice as hard and you can't eat for indigestion and sickness, then you've the physial and mental trauma of pushing watermelon out the space of a nasal cavity, i wouldn't call it normal:D it's still fresh in my mind!!

Sounds like a normal pregnancy to me: aside from the size comparisons - it'd be hard to get pregnant with a "space" the size of a nasal cavity and a baby with a head the size of a watermelon would be somewhat disturbing! Stick with the classic "melon out of a hole the size of an orange" it's rather closer!

my wonderful son is sleeping all night from 12 days old, he's 6 weeks old today, i cannot tell you how different we feel compared to our first who didn't sleep the night through til she was 3..:eek: the rows and stress we suffered for the first year nearly ruined us, we sleep more now and we laugh more now, and i do think the first child is so different to the rest..you're more relaxed with a second or third baby..

Congrats on the new arrival! My partner's first was like your son. Our daughter together was somewhere inbetween, she slept all night for the first week then unleashed hell for the next 6 months! Sleeps right through nowadays though

metrovelvet

No, thats not what I meant, re torture.

I'm sure men get baby blues. But the hard core crash, is reserved for the women imo. I had an emergency c section, a piece of cake compared to the year that followed; a relentless dreamless hell, during which my mental and physical health was compromised, to the point it became impossible to enjoy motherhood. It was beyond the blues, it was the heart and nadar of despair.

I have no doubt a full night sleep once a month or so would have made all the difference. My first five consecutive hours came when he was 18 mos old. It was dark.

Sleepy

TBH, metrovelvet, I think the hard core crash you talk about there is reserved for single parents of a new born who don't have someone else to take their share of the night-feeds etc.

I'm pretty sure only a very small minority of these are male and I don't like to think how I'd have coped with it. I was bad enough when I was at least getting six or seven hours sleep every second night and our little lady only woke during the night regularly for her first six months.

metrovelvet

I think the article in the op is misleading. Baby blues and pnd are not the same thing. Try coping with no sleep for a year, after the bad sleeping during pregnancy, on top of the hormonal crash post partum,on top of the baby taking all your nutrients through your breast, while not having much nutritional intake yourself. That is what many mothers go through, the single ones and the ones with selfish partners.

nesf

Sleepy wrote: »

TBH, metrovelvet, I think the hard core crash you talk about there is reserved for single parents of a new born who don't have someone else to take their share of the night-feeds etc.

You're forgetting that not all of us formula feed our babies.

llester

cbyrd wrote: »

Ah Sleepy no disrespect, and i'm surprised you have gotten away with it:D but there is no such thing as a 'normal pregnancy or delivery' from a medical point of view no complications is described as normal, but when a womans body is being taken over by what is essentially a parasite for 9-10 months the immune system is compromised the heart lungs are working twice as hard and you can't eat for indigestion and sickness, then you've the physial and mental trauma of pushing watermelon out the space of a nasal cavity, i wouldn't call it normal:D it's still fresh in my mind!!

I was going to point it out, but thought it a waste of time doing so to anyone who deemed a woman's perception of it all as martyrdom, yet expects the woman to feel sorry for him.

And Sleepy, it is tiredness and nowt else. It is not baby blues and to try and label it so is insulting to those who have genuinely gone through it. I'm lucky, I never suffered from PND, but I would feel sorry for anyone who has gone through it, particularly as men are now trying to muscle in on the action! You've jumped in here and gone off on a ridiculous tangent, boohooing about your experience, which is not what the thread was about.

metrovelvet

There is an industry in pathology and money to be made from its invention. Im sure men get baby blues, the anti climax, fatigue, but they dont get pnd. And it is offensive to call it martyrdom.

littlebug

Okay the whole martyrdom thing is a bit extreme and is going to raise reactive comments sleepy.
However from my own experience I wouldn't discount the effects it can all have on a man. I'm not talking about pnd "proper" that is hormone related but I could actually take most of your post metrovelvet and apply it to us...

"a relentless dreamless hell, during which my mental and physical health was compromised, to the point it became impossible to enjoy (parenthood). It was beyond the blues, it was the heart and nadar of despair.

I have no doubt a full night sleep once a month or so would have made all the difference. My first five consecutive hours came when he was 18 mos old. It was dark."

All of the above would apply equally to my husband and I after our first. Okay our baby was at the very extreme end of bad sleepers and screamers and I'm not saying that it's like this for every man and certainly a few weeks of tiredness or doing night feeds every second night is not comparable but I wouldn't discount the impact the more extreme and prolonged situations can have on both parents.

Nevyn

There is more and more researching being done about the bio chemical processes in men when thier partners are pregnant and thier bio chemical processes when the baby is born.
New baby smell has proven to have an effect on adults and if a new Dad has been bonding with the baby and is hands on and has been invovled in the pregnancy then his bio chemicals change.

Not as much as a new mother but enough to have a measurable effect and as new Dad try and share more of the hands on with a new baby rahter then leaving it to the new mother this will be come more previlant and tbh it's one of the many reason's we need proper paternity leave in this country.

Sleepy

nesf wrote: »

You're forgetting that not all of us formula feed our babies.

You're forgetting that breast pumps aren't exactly a new inovation...

llester wrote: »

I was going to point it out, but thought it a waste of time doing so to anyone who deemed a woman's perception of it all as martyrdom, yet expects the woman to feel sorry for him.

And Sleepy, it is tiredness and nowt else. It is not baby blues and to try and label it so is insulting to those who have genuinely gone through it. I'm lucky, I never suffered from PND, but I would feel sorry for anyone who has gone through it, particularly as men are now trying to muscle in on the action! You've jumped in here and gone off on a ridiculous tangent, boohooing about your experience, which is not what the thread was about.

I'm not boohooing about my experience at all, just looking for some objectivity. PND is, imho, very different to what most women refer to as 'the baby blues'. I'd also suggest that PND is often mis-diagnosed due to the frequency at which Irish doctors seem to dole out anti-depressants to people who are simply going through a hard time rather than being clinically depressed.

I'm not suggesting men go through post-natal depression, simply that they go through a lot of the hardships of a new baby that women do too. It's not 'muscling in on the action', it's attempting to balance out this notion that women have a monopoly on having a hard time coming to terms with parenthood.

metrovelvet wrote: »

There is an industry in pathology and money to be made from its invention. Im sure men get baby blues, the anti climax, fatigue, but they dont get pnd. And it is offensive to call it martyrdom.

Again, I'm not referring to those genuinely suffering from post-natal depression as playing at martyrdom. I think that some women expect to be the only one's thought of when considering the difficulties that new parents go through. This is what I was referring to as martyrdom: self-pity to the point that it excludes consideration of any hardships experienced by others.

littlebug wrote: »

Okay the whole martyrdom thing is a bit extreme and is going to raise reactive comments sleepy.
However from my own experience I wouldn't discount the effects it can all have on a man. I'm not talking about pnd "proper" that is hormone related but I could actually take most of your post metrovelvet and apply it to us...

"a relentless dreamless hell, during which my mental and physical health was compromised, to the point it became impossible to enjoy (parenthood). It was beyond the blues, it was the heart and nadar of despair.

I have no doubt a full night sleep once a month or so would have made all the difference. My first five consecutive hours came when he was 18 mos old. It was dark."

All of the above would apply equally to my husband and I after our first. Okay our baby was at the very extreme end of bad sleepers and screamers and I'm not saying that it's like this for every man and certainly a few weeks of tiredness or doing night feeds every second night is not comparable but I wouldn't discount the impact the more extreme and prolonged situations can have on both parents.

I think you see the distinction I'm making and outline it better here littlebug. I've every sympathy for a woman experiencing "PND proper" as you term it here. I'd also sympathize with her partner, however, as I'm sure trying to support a partner suffering from PND is a difficult thing to do when dealing with all the other things new parents have to go through. I'm not saying I'd see them as dealing with equal burdens, just recognising that they're both dealing with difficult circumstances.

Nevyn

"Baby Blues" refers to the resetting of a new mothers fertility cycle and the effect those hormones coming into play for the first time in 9 and half month can have, combined with
the after effects of the pregnancy and then the tiredness of dealing with a new born.
It tends to kick in around 4/6 weeks and can last 6 to 8 weeks.

If it lasts a lot longer then that then it could be moving into the realms of post natal depression, if by 6 months a new mother is still experiencing 'baby blues'. It is when the body has failed to reset it's self due to a phyical factor or the struggles a new mother is not coping with and they should see their dr asap.

Both parents may fall foul of parenthood related depression which is seperate again.
That is often brought on my the stress and strain of an infant esp if the child is not sleeping or is sick or premie and the fact that thier life as they new it has changed so much. As well prepared as you may be this can still come as a shock for some new parents.

Also parents these days can often have a lot less support and be isolated.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/02/060207233108.htm

Parents who are married also have fewer symptoms of depression than those who are unmarried, a finding that surprised neither researcher. But they were surprised - shocked, actually - to find that the effects of parenthood on depression were the same for men and women. These findings are inconsistent with some earlier studies and with the assumption that parenthood is more consequential for the emotional well-being of women, Simon said.

The findings do not mean that parents don't find any pleasure in their roles; it's just that the emotional costs can outweigh the psychological benefits. That's because,as the saying goes, it takes a village to raise a child, but in the United States, parents don't necessarily have community support or help from extended family.

"It's how we do parenting in this society," Simon said. "We do it in a very isolated way and the onus is on us as individuals to get it right. Our successes are our own, but so are our failures. It's emotionally draining."

The value of a study like this is that it presents a realistic view of the difficulties associated with parenthood and encourages parents to seek greater social support, Simon said.

With people living further away from family, in housing estates which are empty for most of the day and not having enough support for the first tough year of a baby's life is having a negative impact on new parents.

Parents who are also separated from their child and don't get to see them or seldom see them can fall foul of parenthood related depression and we see cases of non custodial parents who loose themselves in depression and tragically take their own life's.

When you become a new parent you have to bring the lifeguard principle into play.
If you don't look after yourself then there will come a time you can't look after those in your care. Get help, try to make life easier, look to build support structures, let people help, don't be afraid of asking for help you are not superparents, your parents didn't do it all on their own they had help.

llester

Sleepy not one person suggested that women have a monopoly on issues after birth. But what men grow through doesn't compare to what women go through, regardless of the kind of delivery.

I'll say it again, martyrdom it isn't, fact it is.

Sleepy

Repeating something doesn't make it a fact llester.