[US/IRL] 6x04 - "The Substitute" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

tony1kenobi

abelard wrote: »

Locke: "John Locke, substitute."

Now you've highlighted it that line appears far more significant!

rpo wrote: »

A young Jacob ?

Is Kate the only one Jacob appears to in the flashbacks that doesn't seem to be a candidate ?

I think so...and probably cos she is a thieving bast*rd.

I think the kid is Jacob too......or Matt Damon.

recylingbin

7

tony1kenobi wrote: »

I think so...and probably cos she is a thieving bast*rd.

Well, Sayid & Sawyer have killed people as has Kate. I don't think their criminal records come into it.

I'm still trying to get to grips with a theory I'm attempting to formulate to connect the keying in of the numbers and their repective connections to the numbers assigned to the characters.

And failing miserably, I might add.

[-0-]

7

I thought that was great. Waaaaaaaaaaaay better than the last episode. I love this show.

tony1kenobi

recylingbin wrote: »

Well, Sayid & Sawyer have killed people as has Kate. I don't think their criminal records come into it.

I'm still trying to get to grips with a theory I'm attempting to formulate to connect the keying in of the numbers and their repective connections to the numbers assigned to the characters.

And failing miserably, I might add.

Didn't Locke tell Sawyer that Jacob manipulated their lives to get them to the island?So Jacob assigns them numbers(for whatever reason) and everything else is based on that.Because Jacob just has that kind of power?Plus he is sh*t cool.

The Kate/bast*rd comment was a throwaway jokey one....probably not best placed in a Lost thread.

recylingbin

7

tony1kenobi wrote: »

Didn't Locke tell Sawyer that Jacob manipulated their lives to get them to the island?So Jacob assigns them numbers(for whatever reason) and everything else is based on that.Because Jacob just has that kind of power?Plus he is sh*t cool.
.

I get that he has assigned them numbers. But why are these the same numbers typed into the computer to diffuse the electromagnetic energy?
Why did they win Hurley the lottery?
etc.

edit: I hate Kate. She adds nothing.

MiketheMechanic

7

Interesting that they buried Locke beside the remains of his old sweat lodge.

I took this photo in August as filming was restarting - great to see it feature again in S6! The mounds of earth were there allright - no crosses that time though.

MtM

the_monkey

4

tok9 wrote: »

i kinda wish i gave it a 10 now... been thinking about it all day.. I'm seriously going to miss this show.
QUOTE]

Don't worry ... there will be plenty of spin offs....

like Star Trek there will be new seasons with new characters....

cooker3

That was awesome. I could have predicted as much just going by the previous on Lost alone.

I loved the panning scene from Smokeys pov. I think SP is right, there is definitely elements of Locke coming through. The numbers reveal is interesting to say the least. What about those such as Kate who isn't on the list. How did Dharma know about them?
Oh, I also loved the scene with the stones, "inside joke" lol nice.

On the alternative timeline. They are still aren't really doing it for me. I know Darlton hate the alt word as they don't want any idea that this timeline is any less important, but of course it absolutely is. We have spent 5 years dedicated to one timeline and 3-4 episodes on the other. It just not going to matter as much. Now, in saying this I did enjoy this one much more but I just wanted to go back to Esau. It was very poignant seeing Locke smiling in staff room while getting buried. He thought he would be happy on the island, if only he knew.

1 other point. I'm really pissed about the lack of Desmond. He has had about 5 scenes in the last 12 episodes, so criminally underused. I am not quite sure how he can be used in the main story either.

Still, despite complaints. It's well worthy of a 9.

Sad Professor

9

cooker3 wrote: »

1 other point. I'm really pissed about the lack of Desmond. He has had about 5 scenes in the last 12 episodes, so criminally underused. I am not quite sure how he can be used in the main story either.

Yeah, Cusick is no longer a series regular, so we are probably going to see even less of him than we did last season. He was technically a guest star in the premiere.

Snake Plisken

8

Solid 9 from me, I like the Flash sideways bits as we still have the original Locke that we all loved, I suppose we will see how he ended up in the wheelchair in a future episode and he will hook up with Jack.

Basq

8

Now THAT'S more like it!

With regards to the scrawled names & numbers - of the original survivors, why Jack, Sayid, Sawyer, Locke, (Sun/Jin) Kwon and Hugo, and not Claire or Kate? Seeing as it's a candidate to server as protector of the Island.. and not to sound sexist.. but it might just suggest Jacob's replacement should be male and was always meant to be male. But could be wrong!

Couple of fantastic lines and moments such as Locke throwing the light stone into the sea and saying "in-joke" and the "John Locke, substitute" line was magnificent too.

Locke's episodes are always very good, and this was no exception!

Oh.. I sincerally hope that the Flash Sideways do continue with how a storyline set out in one. As in when we see's Ben Flash Sideways, we get more interaction with Locke. What I mean is I hope they're not a flash in the pan moment just to demonstrate how these characters would have interacted if things played out off the island.

Deserved of a 9.

silsean

7

I was thinking today about the parallel timelines (they aren't "alternate" as the writers have said). I was wondering why i seem to think the onisland timeline is the primary timeline and the offisland is a secondary timeline. We still don't know which way Jacks bomb went. They're both supposed to be of equal value for the moment until we're told what the deal is.

You know how "They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt; it always ends the same."
"It only ends once, anything that happens before that is just progress."
So i'm going to have a guess that the onisland action will come to an end by the end of the first third (as the writers have said one timeline would) by way of "it always ends the same" (whatever that means) and we see the offisland through to the end of the season where an attempt at ending it differently is made (by Jack and an atom bomb!). So what i mean is that the onislanders will die or blow themselves off the face of the planet (they're story basically finishes) and the offislanders will find their way onto the island to complete season 6.


I'm loving the Jacob theme music from last years finale in this episode. The music overall is feeling like a movie for S6.

Oh and perhaps that kid isn't Aaron or Jacob. I'm going to give a wild guess that it's a new character..

tony1kenobi

recylingbin wrote: »

I get that he has assigned them numbers. But why are these the same numbers typed into the computer to diffuse the electromagnetic energy?
Why did they win Hurley the lottery?
etc.

edit: I hate Kate. She adds nothing.

Hurley won the lottery to get him to the island.Numbers in the computer bla bla...Desmond on the island?.....missing a vital point I feel but ya get the idea?

recylingbin

7

I do.
All I'm saying is that the numbers being assigned to each character isn't an explanation as far as I'm concerned.
We've learnt something more about them. But not their 'magic' for want of a better word.

AnonoBoy

I'm on Smokey's side from here on out.

Let him off the damn island!

Sad Professor

9

My interpretation of the numbers and of the significance of their reveal in this episode is that their continuous reoccurrence throughout the character's pre-island lives was all evidence of Jacob's manipulation. Dharma were probably brought to the island by Jacob as well, hence their use of the numbers. Although I reckon there's still more to be revealed on this front.

The complete absence of the numbers in the parallel timeline was noted by many people in the premiere. I think the fact that the characters are still meeting and interacting despite the absence of Jacob and the island suggests that UnLocke is not telling the whole truth.

I don't think the "magic" of the numbers will be explained. Nor does it need to be.

silsean

7

recylingbin wrote: »

I do.
All I'm saying is that the numbers being assigned to each character isn't an explanation as far as I'm concerned.
We've learnt something more about them. But not their 'magic' for want of a better word.

I'm with you on this one. It's great to get some information on the numbers but nothing has yet being explained. I bet Claire is 69. Because she had a bun in the oven..

silsean

7

Sorry... But how the F**k did Lockes father, Cooper, go from driving down a road to being in a room on an island. What's the magic box thing!?

I'm done whining.

Sad Professor

9

People are still deciphering them and probably will be for a while, but here's the best list of the numbers/names on the wall I could find.

4 - Locke (John)
8 - Reyes (Hurley)
10 - Mattingley - Other
15 - Ford (James)
16 - Jarrah (Sayid)
23 - Shephard (Jack)
31 - Rutherford (Shannon)
42 - Kwon (Jin or Sun)
56 - Burke - (Juliet)
64 - Goodspeed (Ethan Horace Olivia or Amy)
70 - Faraday (Daniel)
73 - Costa - ?
90 - Troupe - ?
115 - Bargas - ?
117 - Linus (Ben, Roger)
119 - Almeida - ?
142 - Lewis (Charlotte)
171 - Straume (Miles)
195 - Pace (Charlie)
222 - O'Toole - U.S. Military
233 - Jones - U.S. Military
291 - Domingo - U.S. Military
313 - Littleton (Claire or Aaron)
317 - Cunningham - U.S. Military
337 - Martin (Karl) - Other
346 - Grant - U.S. Military

Partial
20 - Rous (Possibly Rousseau)
25 - ___
30 - ___
33 - ___
49 - Cha (Possibly Chang)
62 - ___
251 - ___
260 - ___
272 - ___
285 - Jen (Possibly Jenkins)
__ - Reynolds
__ - Sullivan
__ - Lacombe

Sad Professor

9

silsean wrote: »

Sorry... But how the F**k did Lockes father, Cooper, go from driving down a road to being in a room on an island. What's the magic box thing!?

Cooper - the Others captured him and brought him there apparently so Ben could play mind games with Locke. I was always underwhelmed by this explanation though.

The magic box - it was a metaphor for the island.

recylingbin

7

AnonoBoy wrote: »

I'm on Smokey's side from here on out.

Let him off the damn island!

What if he's a Zod (from superman) type character and the island is his prism prison?
*scared*

recylingbin

7

Sad Professor wrote: »

The complete absence of the numbers in the parallel timeline was noted by many people in the premiere. I think the fact that the characters are still meeting and interacting despite the absence of Jacob and the island suggests that UnLocke is not telling the whole truth.

We don't know that to be true. If the island is underwater, it happened before Jacob was killed. Maybe he's still alive, off the island.

I don't think the "magic" of the numbers will be explained. Nor does it need to be.

It better be. They did nothing but bombard us with the numbers for 5 series. I think we deserve an explanation.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Just to go back to the blonde kid theory: my impression was that it was Zach (one of the kids from the tail section who got kidnapped)? He'd still be an other at this stage, havign spent three years with them, and he did look like he was wearing temple-garb. He could be the overlooked secret in all this.

Any takers?

recylingbin

7

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Just to go back to the blonde kid theory: my impression was that it was Zach (one of the kids from the tail section who got kidnapped)? He'd still be an other at this stage, havign spent three years with them, and he did look like he was wearing temple-garb. He could be the overlooked secret in all this.

Any takers?

Zach (and Emma) were in LA X episode and, as far as I can recall, he didn't look like that.

Mr. Incognito

9

I bet Claire is 69. Because she had a bun in the oven..

I don't think you understand what a 69 is

anyway, it looks like in one reality the island is out of commission somehow,

i can't really think what would put it at the bottom of the ocean unless someone was spinning the wheel and put it there.

Is that the destiny of the crowd left on the island? when it looks like smokey is escaping the noble suicide drowning pact

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

recylingbin wrote: »

Zach (and Emma) were in LA X episode and, as far as I can recall, he didn't look like that.

Which one? The island one or the airport one?

EDIT - scratch it, see what you mean!

recylingbin

7

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Which one? The island one or the airport one? And on-island people will look different from off-island people - example, Claire.

on island. in the background of one of the temple scenes.

Soby

8

lol'ed when lapidus said "This is one crazy ass show" or something like that ..brilliant eppisode

Basq

8

Sad Professor wrote: »

People are still deciphering them and probably will be for a while, but here's the best list of the numbers/names on the wall I could find.

119 - Almeida - ?

So that's where he's been...

Hyzepher

For me the whole numbers reveal was a bit of a cop out. Are we to believe that Jacob wrote all the names/numbers up on a cave, brought those people to the island to see if they were worthy of replacing him? Over how many years?

Don't forget that the beacon was broadcasting the numbers years ago before Rousseau changed it. I would believe it more if those numbers were the only ones Jacob used but it doesn't make sense that these 6 numbers were more important than the others - if so then why bother with the other ones.

I think the 23 - Sheppard is not Jack but Christian. Initially I was surprised that the names were represented by surnames only. Each time Jacobs list was referenced the whole name was used. This surname only thing looks like a big clue. If it is Christian then it would mean that both Jack and Kate are not candidates.

In fact I think I remember an episode were Jack was told that we wasn't on the initial list - must check that.

I think the biggest reveal is the fact that neither Jacob or fake Locke are the guys in charge. There are rules and these rules were set down by someone else. If the boy was jacob then I don't think fake Locke would be so willinging to throw the white stone into the sea as a joke.

Necronomicon

8

Terrific episode.

It was very different seeing so much of 'Flocke' and I think it pointed to something that has been debated here in the past: his connection to Christian Shepherd. It may not have explicitly answered the question, but I felt after watching it that there isn't actually a connection.

Firstly, he was so taken aback by the appearance of the kid, which undermines the theory that he was in fact responsible for all the apiritions on the island. Secondly, in his conversation with Sawyer in the cave, he sounded like somewhat of a skeptic - "It's just an island" (paraphrased, that was the gist though). This doesn't sound like the Christian that told Locke that he 'had' to get off the island. Though of course, that may have been part of some end-game so who knows. EDIT: Can't believe I forgot about this when posting first, but the comment from Ilana that he is 'stuck' in the form of Locke should give us confirmation sooner rather than later.

It was also interesting to hear him say he wanted off the island - a lot of people (myself included) thought that when he referred to 'home' in last week's episode, he meant the temple.

I liked the few bits of humour (major LOL at Ben's eulogy and Lapidus' comment, and the 'in-joke' in the cave). My one reservation about the episode is the 'flash-sideways' - like a few others I'm still not sold on them. I'm open to the idea, but IMO this week's one felt very contrived with the appearances of Hurley, Rose and Ben.

Still, fantastic episode.

Basq

8

Necronomicon wrote: »

My one reservation about the episode is the 'flash-sideways' - like a few others I'm still not sold on them. I'm open to the idea, but IMO this week's one felt very contrived with the appearances of Hurley, Rose and Ben.

Yeah, I have a few problems with the flash-sideways. Like I said last week, some of the appearances just don't appear to serve a purpose other than "well.. imagine that!"

Hurley was somewhat to be expected.. but Rose and Ben just felt out-of-place.

But as I said earlier in the thread.. as long as they form a consistent timeline and are not just flash-in-the-pain appearances, I don't mind!

Penn

basquille wrote: »

Yeah, I have a few problems with the flash-sideways. Like I said last week, some of the appearances just don't appear to serve a purpose other than "well.. imagine that!"

Hurley was somewhat to be expected.. but Rose and Ben just felt out-of-place.

But as I said earlier in the thread.. as long as they form a consistent timeline and are not just flash-in-the-pain appearances, I don't mind!

It wasn't just Rose, Ben and Hurley. The woman who was asking Locke what animal he'd be or whatever was

the fortune teller that Hurley's father brought him to.

Sad Professor

9

Hyzepher wrote: »

For me the whole numbers reveal was a bit of a cop out. Are we to believe that Jacob wrote all the names/numbers up on a cave, brought those people to the island to see if they were worthy of replacing him? Over how many years?

I don't see a problem with this. Jacob met many of the Losties when they were still children. He is obviously somewhat all knowing and had knowledge of the future. The implication, however, is that he was manipulating them.

Don't forget that the beacon was broadcasting the numbers years ago before Rousseau changed it.

We don't actually know this. Leonard and his navy buddy heard the numbers around the same time that Rousseau did - 1988 - and she changed them very shortly after arriving. I'm assuming they weren't broadcasting during 70s. They may have only been transmitting for a very short time.

I would believe it more if those numbers were the only ones Jacob used but it doesn't make sense that these 6 numbers were more important than the others - if so then why bother with the other ones.

Yeah but there's obviously more to be revealed about this.

I think the 23 - Sheppard is not Jack but Christian. Initially I was surprised that the names were represented by surnames only. Each time Jacobs list was referenced the whole name was used. This surname only thing looks like a big clue. If it is Christian then it would mean that both Jack and Kate are not candidates.

Jack was in seat 23 on the plane though. But yeah the use of last names does make it ambiguous. It's also possible that some of the names refer to the Losties children - Ji-Yeon Kwon for example.

In fact I think I remember an episode were Jack was told that we wasn't on the initial list - must check that.

Pickett said in season 3. Patchy also said Sayid and Locke weren't on the list. There's been quite a few lists however. There's nothing to say the list we saw in this episode was the same one the Others were referring to. They may not even have known about the cave.

Hyzepher

Sad Professor wrote: »

We don't actually know this. Leonard and his navy buddy heard the numbers around the same time that Rousseau did - 1988 - and she changed them very shortly after arriving. I'm assuming they weren't broadcasting during 70s. They may have only been transmitting for a very short time.

The point here is that the cave show loads of numbers against possible candidates. Some of which were apparently "tested" over the last few years. Why then broadcast those 6 specific numbers over 20 years ago.

Rabidlamb

8

Solid 9/10 for me, big improvement on last week.

When it begun with Richard in tow I thought yes!!, finally the backstory & then he got away, bugger.

Al Bundy's wife was believable as they loving fiancee but this "what could have been" alternate future doesn't serve much of a purpose in my eyes.
Sawyer on the bottle was funny & I'm happy to see him looking for answers.
I wonder if that's the last we'll hear of the numbers or do they have a deeper explanation.

nitrogen

The sooner one comes to the conclusion that this television series is an amalgamation of many writers building on a previous script, adding an extra level with no blueprint in sight, then you can spare yourself a lot of time trying to decipher a code that doesn't exist.

Edit: I'm still a huge fan, although not of the religious fanboy type who can't criticize things they like. And also, I'd love to be proven wrong, but I'm so skeptical.

umpsfar

9

@nitrogen
Yup .
but its good for the imagination.

On the sheppard surname, it could about lineage..
Clare is a direct descendant of christian, therfore her son, b-tard as he is could also assume the sheppard name, (but that confuses clares surname on the wall )
all the other people who's names have number linked to them , (only child of their family?) last of the lineage?

whos to say its not flocks cave? was my initial thought(+ no one built him a big statue to hide under),
i liked the way the scales where tipped towards black & i thought it was a huge significance that he stroked off james name.
+ i was expecting that the final LOST title would still come up in white no black.

Hyzepher

umpsfar wrote: »

i liked the way the scales where tipped towards black & i thought it was a huge significance that he stroked off james name.

It was Locke's name that he crossed off.

umpsfar

9

Hyzepher wrote: »

It was Locke's name that he crossed off.

ops.(now THAT makes more sense)
Played this straight after lost last night to keep the creepy feeling i got going. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFeftM8kGCo&feature=related

JesseCuster

8

Excellent episode, my favourite since "The Constant"!

Loved the numbers reveal in the cave - I had a feeling something big was about to happen.

Maybe the kid is Jacob reincarnated in Aaron's body (or is that just too confusing?!!)

Interesting that Kate was not one of the numbers, maybe she was always meant for a different role, i.e. Aaron's protector or "guardian angel"

heebusjeebus

8

The numbers is people....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sp-VFBbjpE

the_monkey

4

just thinking ... Ilana said he can't (MIB/Smoky/Flocke) change his appearance now ....

but he appeared as Alex to Ben in "Dead is Dead" ??

Penn

the_monkey wrote: »

just thinking ... Ilana said he can't (MIB/Smoky/Flocke) change his appearance now ....

but he appeared as Alex to Ben in "Dead is Dead" ??

Unless she meant that he can't change now that Jacob is dead. But yeah I was wondering about this too

mcgooch

8

the_monkey wrote: »

just thinking ... Ilana said he can't (MIB/Smoky/Flocke) change his appearance now ....

but he appeared as Alex to Ben in "Dead is Dead" ??

he appeared as alex before jacob was killed. jacob's death must have changed the rules of whatever game it is they're playing imo.

Dymo

6

We need an Ilana flash back, she knows so much but how?

c0rk3r

For me this is a season too far

I enjoyed the reference to of mice and men, some of hurleys lines and the pilots one liner at the burial but its just not enough. At this point the revealation of what the numbers mean do nothing for me. Each number corresponding to a candidate to replace jacob at this stage i just dont care. I've no investment / interest in any of the characters anymore. Like sawyer i dont care if lock is dead, travelled in time, travelled back in time, is someone else, or the island is under water, in the sky, if jin finds sun etc etc

Like sawyer i just want this to end, get off the island and live a life without the drama or the frustrations that go with it. This whole thing could of been solved in season 3 if they just asked each other questions. For me this has gone on too long

homerun_homer

9

Username-in-use wrote: »

For me this is a season too far

For me this has gone on too long

Goodbye, good luck, Adios, sayonara, smell ya later, see you in the funny pages, yadda yadda

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

7

Username-in-use wrote: »

For me this is a season too far

I enjoyed the reference to of mice and men, some of hurleys lines and the pilots one liner at the burial but its just not enough. At this point the revealation of what the numbers mean do nothing for me. Each number corresponding to a candidate to replace jacob at this stage i just dont care. I've no investment / interest in any of the characters anymore. Like sawyer i dont care if lock is dead, travelled in time, travelled back in time, is someone else, or the island is under water, in the sky, if jin finds sun etc etc

Like sawyer i just want this to end, get off the island and live a life without the drama or the frustrations that go with it. This whole thing could of been solved in season 3 if they just asked each other questions. For me this has gone on too long

pretty much, there's still the chance of some quality tv being thrown in this season but the only reason I watch any more is because of how the show made me feel for the first couple of seasons. I'll be glad when it's over, although I may have to throw things at people who come out with 'best tv show evur' after the finale

uggy

8

I liked this episode. Unlike that droll we saw last week. Finally we are getting to the point where they're giving us some answers.

"Locke" is the smoke monster / man in black. He was being held captive on the island by Jacob and now with him out of the picture he can leave.

Couple of thoughts about the episode:

1. Smokey Locke was all about using the phrase "Don't tell me what I can't do" in front of that kid. But then when real Locke was talking to Rose about the getting a construction job, no matter how many times she set him up to use that line he never did. This concretes my theory that Locke wasn't always Locke but was Smokey Locke alot (if not all) of the time. Would like to see a list of people Locke said "Dont tell me what I can't do" to.

2. Blonde Kid - Arronn? Or little Jacob? Or the same people... I have to say I didnt notice the bleeding hand, wonder what thats about.

3. Sawyer is warming to Smokey Locke, big time. Wonder if he's gonna con him. The only other people you've seen him warm to are people he is trying to con (and Kate and Juliet I guess). Sawyer is most deff the type to only do something if it suits him. And he seemed to go along fairly easy. I know there was the line about Smokey Locke "not looking afraid", but still.

I like this side to whats going on at the moment. Really dugg on the cave scene at the end and the number, prob my favorite part of Lost and something to theorise on there. Hopefully some boffin can figure them out from here. Prob gonna have to wait 2 or 3 episodes before this story arch continues though