[US/IRL] 6x04 - "The Substitute" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

c0rk3r

homerun_homer wrote: »

Goodbye, good luck, Adios, sayonara, smell ya later, see you in the funny pages, yadda yadda

ehh ive watched this show religiously since the beginning im not going to stop watching it now. Im an addict, a hopeless addict that just wants closure.

Sad Professor

9

I thought we got an interesting insight into the Jacob/MIB conflict in this episode. And it seems pretty similar to the Jack/Locke conflict:

For 5 seasons, Locke has said (paraphrase): "This island is special, it is a place where miracles happen, we need to protect it. It was destiny that we came here, there's something we are supposed to do," etc.

While Jack has said: "It's just an island, and I'm sick of it, we need to get off it. There's no such thing as destiny, you're a fool, John, pressing the button is a joke", etc

Now listen to what the MIB has to say in this episode: "I'm trapped here. Jacob manipulated you like a puppet, your choices were never really your own. It's just a damn island, lets get the hell off it," etc.

Sounds just like Jack, doesn't it? Or how Jack used to be. I think Jack is now the new Locke and will fight on the side of Jacob against UnLocke, who ironically represents his old views. Unless that whole business with the bomb has caused Jack return to his old ways.

missingtime

7

Good episode. Interesting to see Ben admit he murdered him.

Liked how they portrayed the names and numbers.

I hope "Lockes'" outburst isn't a an answer the question "What is the island?". He kept saying it was just an island.

Psychedelic

7

Necronomicon wrote: »

It was also interesting to hear him say he wanted off the island - a lot of people (myself included) thought that when he referred to 'home' in last week's episode, he meant the temple.

I thought that fake Locke might have been talking about 'home' as off island alright, but I think he is just trying to trick Sawyer, but who knows.

uggy wrote: »

Would like to see a list of people Locke said "Dont tell me what I can't do" to.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Don%27t_Tell_Me_What_I_Can%27t_Do#.22Don.27t_tell_me_what_I_can.27t_do.22

uggy wrote: »

Sawyer is warming to Smokey Locke, big time. Wonder if he's gonna con him. The only other people you've seen him warm to are people he is trying to con (and Kate and Juliet I guess). Sawyer is most deff the type to only do something if it suits him. And he seemed to go along fairly easy. I know there was the line about Smokey Locke "not looking afraid", but still.

I love the idea that Sawyer could be setting up a long con on fake Locke. I think fake Locke is trying to con Sawyer to do whatever, so it would be a nice setup for Sawyer to con him instead.

homerun_homer

9

Username-in-use wrote: »

at this stage i just dont care. I've no investment / interest in any of the characters anymore.

Username-in-use wrote: »

ehh ive watched this show religiously since the beginning im not going to stop watching it now. Im an addict, a hopeless addict that just wants closure.

When I started watching Heroes it was entertaining nonsense but after a while I got sick of it and gave up (don't get me started on how stupid that show is). On the other hand I've a friend who continues to watch it, like you do with Lost because as long as it's on tv he has to see how it pans out, for good or bad because he invested the time in watching it so far.

I didn't tell you to stop watching the show, I'm just saying goodbye to you in this thread or bid you adieu to the "Whine about Lost thread" because we're not here to listen to people who have given up.

Nothing wrong with anyone announcing that they're throwing in the towel & don't care but you clearly have given up on the show and future feedback from this point will be redundant IMO. I come here to listen to fellow fans opinions and theories, those who haven't given up - whether it's a good review or bad, but if you've lost complete interest in the characters, situations and answers then who cares what you add here from now on.

If the show ends up disappointing me in the end then I'll be chatting to you in the Whine About Lost thread in a few months time.

Mr.Nice Guy

7

Meh. Wasn't a classic episode by any means. They answered a lot which I'll give credit for but for an episode centred around Locke I expected better and it was probably the weakest Locke-centric one. Very little drama and this 'ALT timeline' hasn't impressed me I must say.

The stuff with the boy Jacob (I'm assuming it was him) was a bit hokey.

What is looking likely is that Lost is in fact a game between two opposing sides.

Basq

8

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

What is looking likely is that Lost is in fact a game between two opposing sides.

Ah to be fair.. that's hardly a revelation!

It's been looking like that since season 1, episode 2 to be honest!

Two players. Two sides. One is light, one is dark.

Mr.Nice Guy

7

basquille wrote: »

Ah to be fair.. that's hardly a revelation!

It's been looking like that since season 1, episode 2 to be honest!

Well yes there were clues in season 1 and 2 but I think most people only copped on to it last season.

blue_steel

7

SIX WORDS: THE SHOW I LOVE IS BACK.
The tone of subtle menace that ran through this episode was spine-chilling... Terry O'Quinn and Josh Holloway with their best scenes together ever in the show... The numbers associated with the names on the roof of the cave... Definately a ten out of ten... Am going to watch again straight away.

ziggyman17

I think sawyer could be setting fake locke up for a long con..

I_am_LOST

Thought it was a great episode. My favourite since The Constant. Have read the whole thread and people have pretty much commented exactly what I was going to say.

The pieces are starting to come together, and there's still a lot of questions, and more questions are created each episode but I have faith they'll be answered.

I wonder, however, will they explain how Jacob and MIB got to the island?

Why does MIB want to leave so bad? He said "It's just an island. It doesn't need protecting" MIB has been on the island so long. Surely he can see it's not just an island but to quote Locke "a place where miracles happen"

That said, if I was a regular Lostie, I would probably be on MIB's side

Sad Professor

9

I love the Sawyer long con idea as well.

Also, does anyone have any thoughts on the idea that the island is basically a prison for MIB? He talked about being trapped. Given the negative view of humanity he espoused to Jacob in front of the statue, him getting loose on the world might uh, bad.

That's not to say he was lying about once being a man, but that's clearly not the case anymore. Whatever he is now he's dangerous.

Maybe Jacob is like the warden. So "protecting" the island may be about keeping MIB on it.

Just a possibility.

ToTheSea:

7

VolvicMinerial wrote: »

Liked they way they answered the question why they were carrying around Locke's body, simple but accurate.

I must have missed this. what was said?

I_am_LOST

Oh, and I know I should know this...but can somebody clarify what year the two timelines are in?

On island - still trying to get my head around this....?

Off island - Bomb goes off. Prevents Oceanic 815 ever crashing = ALT timeline. 2007?

Sad Professor

9

I_am_LOST wrote: »

Oh, and I know I should know this...but can somebody clarify what year the two timelines are in?

On island - still trying to get my head around this....?

Off island - Bomb goes off. Prevents Oceanic 815 ever crashing = ALT timeline. 2007?

On island - 2007

Off island - "alternate" 2004, but this may move around.

the_monkey

4

I watched it again, enjoyed it a lot more this time ... I would retract my original vote if i could !!!


anyway .... wondering, if John Locke does meet up with Jack in the
Alt. timeline, they would want to get a moveon with it ... since i believe
this is gonna dissapear soon.....

Also , I mentioned before regarding smokeys appearence ,
since he is stuck as John Lock now, what about Christian ??
or maybe he never was smokey ????

if not ... then what ????


JAcob ???? --- hmmmm just remembered that line Christian said in the Cabin "I can speak on JAcobs behalf...."


it's the mystery that makes this show great !!!

I_am_LOST

Sad Professor wrote: »

On island - 2007

Off island - "alternate" 2004, but this may move around.

Thanks, but what happened on island to transport them from 1977 to 2007. Did the bomb go off or not?

the_monkey

4

I_am_LOST wrote: »

Thanks, but what happened on island to transport them from 1977 to 2007. Did the bomb go off or not?

Seems it did and it didn't ... in the Alt timeline ... yes, as the island is "destroyed" and under the sea..... plane never crashes etc...

in the 2007 timeline, bomb didn't go off back in 1977 ... but something happened to dump 'em all conviently back to 2007

tok9

8

the_monkey wrote: »

it's the mystery that makes this show great !!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ2AHDmSI_g

Mr.Nice Guy

7

I want to know where Eloise and Widmore fit into all this.

Carroller16

7

thought the guy that delivered the lost luggage was gona be walt

redpanda26

well I for one thoroughly enjoyed that episode. loved the lapeidus line of " this is the weirdest damn funeral I've ever been to". great stuff. I also really enjoyed the "alt timeline" or what i like to call opposite world.

I also really liked the scene where richard comes running towards sawyer in the jungle all scared and shook up and then goes scampering off again as soon as he hears flocke. makes me wonder how truely dangerous flocke really is?

not really sure what to make of the story to do with the numbers and names scratched on the wall of the cave yet, wil just have to wait and see. anyway I look forward to next weeks episode.

Artfully Dodgin

6

the young boy was Aaron and the number was neither jin or sun, its their child.

Artfully Dodgin

6

ziggyman17 wrote: »

I think sawyer could be setting fake locke up for a long con..

I think your right. Grieving or not he's way to cute to walk into a trap

tok9

8

Artfully Dodgin wrote: »

the young boy was Aaron and the number was neither jin or sun, it was for their unborn child.

unborn?

Ji Yeon is born and with Sun's mother

mackthefinger

7

Loved it. Only gave it an eight because I'm leaving my nines and tens for the rest of the season.

Nothing really to add to the discussion, but I love the little touches
in the show. When Locke was lying on the lawn and the sprinkler
came on; wasn't there another episode with Locke standing on
the island just enjoying the rain?

And the music for the smokie cam and when Locke calls to see Sawyer -
Search and Destroy by Iggy Pop and the Stooges. Which is what Smokie
usually does, and I presume what Esau is planning to do to the Island and
the inhabitants of the temple.

the_monkey

4

tok9 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ2AHDmSI_g

nice one !!

popebenny16

6

mackthefinger wrote: »

Loved it. Only gave it an eight because I'm leaving my nines and tens for the rest of the season.

Nothing really to add to the discussion, but I love the little touches
in the show. When Locke was lying on the lawn and the sprinkler
came on; wasn't there another episode with Locke standing on
the island just enjoying the rain?

And the music for the smokie cam and when Locke calls to see Sawyer -
Search and Destroy by Iggy Pop and the Stooges. Which is what Smokie
usually does, and I presume what Esau is planning to do to the Island and
the inhabitants of the temple.

I agree, but I have to add the shot of the crab running off Lockes head and also Ben as a Teacher as being good touches, not to mention Bens short eulogy at the graveside, acted with true emotion form Michael Emerson.

I like the side flashes ( I know there is a thread) because you can look at the life Locke, for example, should have had, compared to the rotting corpse on the beach. Years ago I posted here that he was my favourite character because I felt here was a broken man who would find some answers to his life. We we expecting to find that he was brought to the Island for a reason, and that the sadness and frustration and the sheer arbitrary meanness of fates role in his life would come to something. But, it did not. Maybe flocke is right, maybe Locke was manipulated all his life by the man we always perhaps thought was the good guy -Jacob. But in the end, he ended up a rotting crab abode. This makes his alternative time line all the more interesting, the one without Jacob, and makes Jacob perhaps more black than white all along.

Now.... why is flocke basically trapped on the island, we know Jacob can get off of it. Why not him. Was Jacob his jailer??

Its getting better isnt it...:):)

Dman001

qz wrote: »

Just remembered there, the noise of AR Locke's alarm clock is the exact same as the noise of the hatch countdown alarm when the numbers weren't entered in time!

I believe the time on the clock was 8:15 too but I could be worng.

murpho999

9

Is this the first episode thread were noone has said 'was just a filler episode' or 'the writers are making it up as they go along'.

I gave it a solid 10. It was brilliant in everyway.

The acting was fantastic.

Loved both the island and alt timeline scenes.

In typical Lost fashion we got answers but left with so many questions.

Biggest one is who is the boy. I don't think it's Jacob as he's already reappeared to Hurley as himself. Could be Aarron but I doubt it.

Really wondering about the blood on his arms, and the 'What Kid?' comment from MIB was strange.

All great stuff, and I really love Lost....will miss it when it's gone!

ashyle

6

I wasn't expecting the numbers in the cave. It seems too simple!

Penn

One thing confused me though. Randy said that Locke was saving his weeks vacation for October, for his wedding. But last week, when Claire had the ultrasound done, the date was October 22nd. But the time between Kate, Claire and Locke getting off the plane and Claire having the ultrasound taken seemed pretty short. Production error or something else?

Sad Professor

9

Production error. This was confirmed by Greg Nations during the week.

Draupnir

Sad Professor wrote: »

Maybe Jacob is like the warden. So "protecting" the island may be about keeping MIB on it.

I like this idea, so basically when MIB says that "it's just an island" he's not lying, essentially what makes the island special is the game between MIB and Jacob. What makes the island special is that it's the only place that MIB can be kept to protect the world?

Penn

Sad Professor wrote: »

Production error. This was confirmed by Greg Nations during the week.

Wow. And after so much being read into it since it was spotted

Draupnir

One other thing, when the boy told MIB "you can't kill him". I thought that he was talking about Sawyer, so I personally feel that MIB/Smoke monster can't kill candidates.

From that, I'm thinking that the times we saw him appear to people and "judge" them he was checking to see if they were candidates, going back to their most vulnerable times and checking to see if they had met Jacob. Once he had figured out if they were candidates or not, he could kill them or not, seems to fit for Eko maybe?

Would explain why he killed the pilot but not Charlie, Jack or Kate in the Pilot episode. Would also explain why he let Locke live too.

Hyzepher

i noticed that smokey doesn't seem to be able to travel from one location to another. he seems to project himself around the island but is anchored to where he initially turns into the monster. An example of this is when we see him search the Dharma village for Sawyer yet he returns to where he left his blade only to reform as Locke and head off to the village himself. Another example is when he kills the guys in the statue. The smoke monster somes out from a passage way, does the killing and then returns to the passageway before Locke can reappear.

if this is the case then i would imagine that where ever this "anchor" is at the time he turns into smokey is in fact his most vunerable point and may be exploited in the future.

AnonoBoy

I think the kid saying you can't kill him was referring to Jacob - as in he couldn't just kill Jacob and that would be the end of it.

Of course this implies that they are bound by rules laid down by someone else.

It seems like a God/Devil type scenario in some ways. Jacob trying to prove that there are good people out there, people capable of taking over his role and Smokey trying to prove him wrong.

But Smokey doesn't seem to want part of it anymore. If Jacob found a suitable candidtate would he and Smokey be released? Smokey thought this would never happen and looked for the loophole to end the game prematurely.

Now he seems to need recruits to help him off the island? Or is he merely lying and using them for something else.

Is Smokey actually evil or is it Jacob that's been destroying people for his own gain?

In Locke's ALT timeline he's a much happier, more accepting man. Has he forgiven his father for pushing him out the window? Did this even happen? Jacob visited him right after he fell from the window but if there were no visits from Richard in his youth did Locke's life pan out the same way.

So, is Jacob's quest to find a suitable candidate laying waste to people's lives as Smokey suggested? Or, is there a greater good that he is trying to serve?

Interesting that when the Others made their lists and took survivors, none of them were candidates. What did they base their list on?

Penn

Draupnir wrote: »

One other thing, when the boy told MIB "you can't kill him". I thought that he was talking about Sawyer, so I personally feel that MIB/Smoke monster can't kill candidates.

From that, I'm thinking that the times we saw him appear to people and "judge" them he was checking to see if they were candidates, going back to their most vulnerable times and checking to see if they had met Jacob. Once he had figured out if they were candidates or not, he could kill them or not, seems to fit for Eko maybe?

Would explain why he killed the pilot but not Charlie, Jack or Kate in the Pilot episode. Would also explain why he let Locke live too.

I was thinking the same about Eko. After Eko refused to ask forgiveness (for whatever it was Yemi was talking about, can't really remember), Jacob must have decided that Eko was not a suitable candidate. So Smokey was then allowed to kill him

Penn

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Interesting that when the Others made their lists and took survivors, none of them were candidates. What did they base their list on?

I guess those people were deemed to not be suitable to replace Jacob, so Jacob gave the list of their names to Richard/The Others so those people would be protected from Smokey.

I don't think you actually have to die to be crossed off the candidate list, just if they don't think you're worthy of replacing Jacob

AnonoBoy

Draupnir wrote: »

One other thing, when the boy told MIB "you can't kill him". I thought that he was talking about Sawyer, so I personally feel that MIB/Smoke monster can't kill candidates.

From that, I'm thinking that the times we saw him appear to people and "judge" them he was checking to see if they were candidates, going back to their most vulnerable times and checking to see if they had met Jacob. Once he had figured out if they were candidates or not, he could kill them or not, seems to fit for Eko maybe?

Would explain why he killed the pilot but not Charlie, Jack or Kate in the Pilot episode. Would also explain why he let Locke live too.

Interesting point. I didn't realise Charlie had been a candidate. I still think the kid was referring to Jacob when he said "you can't kill him". Although perhaps Smokey thought now with Jacob gone he could kill candidates.

Hyzepher wrote: »

i noticed that smokey doesn't seem to be able to travel from one location to another. he seems to project himself around the island but is anchored to where he initially turns into the monster. An example of this is when we see him search the Dharma village for Sawyer yet he returns to where he left his blade only to reform as Locke and head off to the village himself. Another example is when he kills the guys in the statue. The smoke monster somes out from a passage way, does the killing and then returns to the passageway before Locke can reappear.

if this is the case then i would imagine that where ever this "anchor" is at the time he turns into smokey is in fact his most vunerable point and may be exploited in the future.

Another interesting point. Perhaps why Smokey seemed to 'live' in or under the Temple.

I'm wondering how Ben 'summoned' Smokey to clear out the mercenaries. How did he know he could do that?

Sad Professor

9

Hyzepher wrote: »

i noticed that smokey doesn't seem to be able to travel from one location to another. he seems to project himself around the island but is anchored to where he initially turns into the monster. An example of this is when we see him search the Dharma village for Sawyer yet he returns to where he left his blade only to reform as Locke and head off to the village himself. Another example is when he kills the guys in the statue. The smoke monster somes out from a passage way, does the killing and then returns to the passageway before Locke can reappear.

if this is the case then i would imagine that where ever this "anchor" is at the time he turns into smokey is in fact his most vunerable point and may be exploited in the future.

Very interesting. This would explain why he didn't turn into smoke to chase after the kid. Might also add some credence to the idea that he was once held captive in the cabin while still being able to roam the island as the smoke monster.

Draupnir wrote: »

One other thing, when the boy told MIB "you can't kill him". I thought that he was talking about Sawyer, so I personally feel that MIB/Smoke monster can't kill candidates.
...
Would explain why he killed the pilot but not Charlie, Jack or Kate in the Pilot episode. Would also explain why he let Locke live too.

I like this. I was thinking something similar.

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Interesting that when the Others made their lists and took survivors, none of them were candidates. What did they base their list on?

If what Draupnir said about Smokey not being able to kill candidates is correct, then perhaps the initial "lists" of people which the Others captured were non-candidates - people not safe from Smokey. The Others took them to the Temple to protect them.

AnonoBoy

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

I was thinking the same about Eko. After Eko refused to ask forgiveness (for whatever it was Yemi was talking about, can't really remember), Jacob must have decided that Eko was not a suitable candidate. So Smokey was then allowed to kill him

It's all about choice. Smokey couldn't make Richard come with him last week, and couldn't/wouldn't kill him (although I don't think Richard is a candidate) and had to talk Sawyer into it. He essentially tricks or forces candidates hands and if they fail he is then permitted to kill them.

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

I guess those people were deemed to not be suitable to replace Jacob, so Jacob gave the list of their names to Richard/The Others so those people would be protected from Smokey.

I don't think you actually have to die to be crossed off the candidate list, just if they don't think you're worthy of replacing Jacob

Interesting. I never thought of it that way. Although the Others seemed to enjoy an odd relationship with Smokey. They needed to be protected from him but Ben used him too.

leggo

8

Some very solid-sounding theories here. I especially like the one about Smokey having to use Sawyer to kill off the candidates before he can return home.

The whole angle of Jacob manipulating everyone's lives to get them to the island also gives so much more meaning, in hindsight, to the flashbacks of earlier series. From the time he met them, everything that occured was a ploy to land them all on Oceanic 815. This would fly in the face of Jacob's 'free will' philosophy and hint at him not being everything that he claims to stand for.

Great episode.

Sad Professor

9

leggo wrote: »

The whole angle of Jacob manipulating everyone's lives to get them to the island also gives so much more meaning, in hindsight, to the flashbacks of earlier series. From the time he met them, everything that occured was a ploy to land them all on Oceanic 815. This would fly in the face of Jacob's 'free will' philosophy and hint at him not being everything that he claims to stand for.

Yeah, Jacob's dodgy notion of free will also fits very well with the Others' behaviour over the seasons. Ben always wanted people to choose/want to do something, even though the idea to do it usually originated with him. As Alex said, you think it's your idea but it's really his. Juliet seemed to have some understanding of this when she complained about free will in 3x01.

Tbh while I think Jacob still essentially represents good, him and MIB are probably as bad as each other. The series will probably end with our characters telling them both to f**k off.

trishw78

5

ok go with me here what if the 'kid' is like a game/rule keeper. He appears as a kid 'cause this is what flocke recognises, and kids generally stick to the rules of a game(if you can remember back to your youth). I'm assuming that Sawyer saw him 'cause he is a candidate, possible the other candidates will see him in future episodes.

As for an Ilana or Richard fashback. I wouldn't expect them till nearer the end of the season. As I'm sure they may be used as a BIG reveal.

I'm wondering why Smokie didn't materialise as Locke at the Dhrama Camp?

Draupnir

Sad Professor wrote: »

If what Draupnir said about Smokey not being able to kill candidates is correct, then perhaps the initial "lists" of people which the Others captured were non-candidates - people not safe from Smokey. The Others took them to the Temple to protect them.

I think we could really be on to something here, what a fantastic storyline that would be too.

the_monkey

4

IF it's just an island how does it move ?

it seems to move physically as well as through time ? correct ??

Closed ac

Just watched the episode this morning, very interesting. Although I didn't find the flash sideways to be as interesting as Kate's.

I'm glad Lost has gotten back to being great, I personally found season four and five very disappointing, but I'm hooked again!

Penn

the_monkey wrote: »

IF it's just an island how does it move ?

it seems to move physically as well as through time ? correct ??

It could be something to do with the electromagnetism, but on a show with time travel and smoke monsters, you have to suspend your belief a fair bit. While the producers try to explain lots of things, there will be some things that you just have to go with