[US/IRL] 6x04 - "The Substitute" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

Psychedelic

7

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I want to know where Eloise and Widmore fit into all this.

Yeah I wonder what the story is with Eloise. In the season 5 finale, Richard knocked her out and took her somewhere (probably the temple). When the bomb went off how come she wasn't transported to 2007 along with Richard and everyone else on the island? Maybe he got her on the sub somehow, and she goes off the island to give birth to Faraday. I don't know how Widmore will fit in to this again, he seemed really important in the grand scheme of things but not so much lately, same with Ben.

Carroller16 wrote: »

thought the guy that delivered the lost luggage was gona be walt

I thought it really sounded like Michael delivering the luggage. Was his name in the credits?

mackthefinger wrote: »

Nothing really to add to the discussion, but I love the little touches in the show. When Locke was lying on the lawn and the sprinkler came on; wasn't there another episode with Locke standing on the island just enjoying the rain?

Yeah I liked that too. In season 1 Locke and Boone were out in the jungle somewhere and Locke stopped to say it would rain in one minute, and it did, and he just smiled up at the rain.

Penn

Psychedelic wrote: »

Yeah I wonder what the story is with Eloise. In the season 5 finale, Richard knocked her out and took her somewhere (probably the temple). When the bomb went off how come she wasn't transported to 2007 along with Richard and everyone else on the island? Maybe he got her on the sub somehow, and she goes off the island to give birth to Faraday. I don't know how Widmore will fit in to this again, he seemed really important in the grand scheme of things but not so much lately, same with Ben.

Richard wasn't transported to 2007. Neither was anyone else except Jack, Juliet, Kate, Hurley, Sawyer, Jin, Miles and Sayid (ie. the people who actually went back in time).

Richard is ageless, as shown how he was in 1954 and looked the same, but he didn't know John Locke, even though he had met him in 2004 before the time flashes started. For some reason, he doesn't get any older. Eloise does, so after The Incident in 1977 when Richard knocks her out, she leaves the island somehow and raises Daniel. And she gets older as time goes on.

So after The Incident, only the people who went back in time were transported to 2007. Richard, Eloise etc stayed in their own time and lived for about another 25 years before Oceanic 815 crashed on the island

Woddle

7

Not to sure on the Saywer con man idea as I think the reason he saw the kid and Richard didn't is because he is on Flockes side were as Richard clearly isn't.

uncleoswald

7

If anything that episode makes the numbers more mysterious, but thankfully people seem to think thats answered so hopefully we can all move on.

The Hurley scene was kind of cool but the Rose one really seemed tacked on, I hope there is a point to these coincidences and they are not just excuses to revisit all the old characters. As I'm really liking the flashsideways for the most part.

But it was Bens scene that was really interesting. This confirms the island did not end up at the bottom of the ocean as a result of the bomb. It happened sometime later, as Ben was still been held by the Others in the Temple. And Ben seemed alright in the flashsideways despite Richards warning that he would never be the same after they took him. So what did happen to Ben as a result of been healed? What is the real reason he became a psycho if he is indeed normal in the flashsideways? And what event happened on the island to force someone to move the island to the bottom of the ocean or for it to sink?

Lapidus was funny as usual but I really don't see the point of him as a character unless, unfortunatly, its for cannon fodder reasons. Jin and Sun have been so marginalised for the last two seasons it'll be hard to care for their big reunion, shame.

Penn

uncleoswald wrote: »

But it was Bens scene that was really interesting. This confirms the island did not end up at the bottom of the ocean as a result of the bomb. It happened sometime later, as Ben was still been held by the Others in the Temple. And Ben seemed alright in the flashsideways despite Richards warning that he would never be the same after they took him. So what did happen to Ben as a result of been healed? What is the real reason he became a psycho if he is indeed normal in the flashsideways? And what event happened on the island to force someone to move the island to the bottom of the ocean or for it to sink?

But if Sayid never went to the island, then he never shot Ben to begin with.

The island underwater scene showed the Dharma Barracks. Perhaps, since Faraday never went to the island in this timeline, Jughead exploded some time before Ben got to the island, perhaps shortly after the Dharma folk built the barracks. This could explain why Ben is relatively normal (apart from seeming like the guy everyone in work hates )

Sad Professor

9

Re: the island being underwater

Does anyone else think there's some connection between this and the fact that Dharma used a submarine to get to/from the island? In "One of Us" Richard/Ethan described the trip as being "bumpy" and "intense" and insisted that Juliet be asleep for the ride. I always thought there was something to this.

Later on, we saw people came to/from the island quite easily using rafts, helicopters, etc. Why a submarine?

uncleoswald

7

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

But if Sayid never went to the island, then he never shot Ben to begin with.

I know what you're saying......but.......
For the first time in 6 seasons I can truly say I'm really confused.

Surly for the alt timeline to exist the Losties would have had to detonate the bomb? Therefore they were on the island and Ben was shot etc... Its only different after 1977. No....

Edit. Okay I think I've got it. The losties always went back in time but in this alt timeline the losties were never on the island to go back in time in the first place so you are right, Ben never would have got shot. Right....? Lost broke my brain there for a sec.

Psychedelic

7

Sad Professor wrote: »

Re: the island being underwater

Does anyone else think there's some connection between this and the fact that Dharma used a submarine to get to/from the island? In "One of Us" Richard/Ethan described the trip as being "bumpy" and "intense" and insisted that Juliet be asleep for the ride. I always thought there was something to this.

Later on, we saw people came to/from the island quite easily using rafts, helicopters, etc. Why a submarine?

i thought it could be something to do with the time bearing, like in the Constant? or it might be something to do with stealth too, the submarine would get into the island unseen, whereas a boat or plane wouldn't.

joyle

7

Did anybody find it weird that Ben was in Locke's flashsideways?
Ben would have been on the island regardless of weather the plane crashed or not!
So is there no "island" in the flashsideways?
just a little observation i had!:)

Sad Professor

9

joyle wrote: »

So is there no "island" in the flashsideways?

There is, you just need to hold your breath on it.

joyle

7

Sad Professor wrote: »

There is, you just need to hold your breath on it.

ah sure ive been holding my breath for 6 seasons.. i think i can hold on i lil longer!!

Dman001

Draupnir wrote: »

One other thing, when the boy told MIB "you can't kill him". I thought that he was talking about Sawyer, so I personally feel that MIB/Smoke monster can't kill candidates.

From that, I'm thinking that the times we saw him appear to people and "judge" them he was checking to see if they were candidates, going back to their most vulnerable times and checking to see if they had met Jacob. Once he had figured out if they were candidates or not, he could kill them or not, seems to fit for Eko maybe?

Would explain why he killed the pilot but not Charlie, Jack or Kate in the Pilot episode. Would also explain why he let Locke live too.

I really like this theory. Would really explain why Smokie didnt kill them.

Im not one to complain when we get answers, but I thought that the whole numbers relating to the candidates was just an easy way for the producers to explain the numbers. Saying that, Id rather them being explained and I really like it, even if it was just the producers taking the easy route.

recylingbin

7

I'm starting to come around to this line of thinking

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PG5PCd284o

also, chooooooooooooon!

cooker3

Sad Professor wrote: »

Very interesting. This would explain why he didn't turn into smoke to chase after the kid. Might also add some credence to the idea that he was once held captive in the cabin while still being able to roam the island as the smoke monster.


I like this. I was thinking something similar.


If what Draupnir said about Smokey not being able to kill candidates is correct, then perhaps the initial "lists" of people which the Others captured were non-candidates - people not safe from Smokey. The Others took them to the Temple to protect them.

I really like all this.

I have this warm fuzzy feeling inside that the show is really starting to come together. There is a sense that all 6 seasons have a purpose. Flocke said the most important question is why are they on the island. Of course to us it's are they making it up as they go along. I am really hopeful now about that.

Amazing the difference 1 episode makes hey.

youngblood

joyle wrote: »

So is there no "island" in the flashsideways?
just a little observation i had!:)

there is an island in the flash sideways
its just underwater thats all

sprinkles

6

Good episode, not amazing though.

My first problem is with the numbers. They didn't explain them they just designated a name to them. What I want to know is how are those numbers the most important when there were clearly dozens up on the wall of the cave, yet the 6 numbers were the ones that Hurley won the lottery with, that were part of the beacon, hatch numbers etc... why not the other ones?

Secondly, the flash sideways all seems to be a little contrived imo. It's as if the writers are just shoe horning characters into roles in the alt reality to take away from the fact that the story is going no where (or at least appears to be going no where). Perhaps they are looking at the possibility of a spin off alternate reality show... :rolleyes: cause at the rate they are travelling they have a lot to tie up in both dimensions!

Really looking forward to seeing what Richard does... he's becoming one of my favorite characters and I hope he has a bigger role in things to come - kill off Kate if needs be!!!

Dman001

Sad Professor wrote: »

Re: the island being underwater

Does anyone else think there's some connection between this and the fact that Dharma used a submarine to get to/from the island? In "One of Us" Richard/Ethan described the trip as being "bumpy" and "intense" and insisted that Juliet be asleep for the ride. I always thought there was something to this.

Later on, we saw people came to/from the island quite easily using rafts, helicopters, etc. Why a submarine?

I never really thought of the Submarine having a connection to the island being underwater but I did think that there was some connection with the underwater station (where Charlie died).

Sad Professor

9

Dman001 wrote: »

I never really thought of the Submarine having a connection to the island being underwater but I did think that there was some connection with the underwater station (where Charlie died).

Yeah I meant to mention that as well. The underwater station was called the "The Looking Glass", which my if memory is correct is a reference to the portal Alice used to get to Wonderland. The station had a sub dock as well. I always thought there was something significant about this place.

Dubs

9

How does Jacob get to and from the island? Is it because he's magic or does he have his own personal yacht or something?

Dman001

Dubs wrote: »

How does Jacob get to and from the island? Is it because he's magic or does he have his own personal yacht or something?

Well when Ben turned the wheel he was "teleported" to the real world so Im sure Jacob has some telepoter on the island.

the_monkey

4

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

It could be something to do with the electromagnetism, but on a show with time travel and smoke monsters, you have to suspend your belief a fair bit. While the producers try to explain lots of things, there will be some things that you just have to go with

Absolutely, i have no problem with the suspension of disbelief , but does
the island move physically as well as through time ??

I always had a thought about this since season 1/2 when the plane from
Nigeria was found .... way out of range, I always though the island
was in the Indian ocean and not the pacific...

seems if it does move physically at one stage it was in the indian, as well as the far far north (since Polar bears are on it ... )

Sad Professor

9

the_monkey wrote: »

Absolutely, i have no problem with the suspension of disbelief , but does
the island move physically as well as through time ??

Yeah, "the island" is physically moving all the time. We learned this from Miss Hawking last season. It seems the wheel just gives some (unpredictable) control over that movement.

I'm not sure the island if moves in time though. Or least we've never seen it do so. Ben moved it in 2004. Ajira 316 lands on it in 2007. 3 years had passed both on island and off. Richard confirmed this. We still don't really know what was the story with the shifts through time that the survivors experienced.

As for why the island moves: the wormhole theory provided the perfect explanation imo. However, I think the island being underwater in the ALT kinda messes that theory up now.

the_monkey wrote: »

, as well as the far far north (since Polar bears are on it ... )

No, Dharma brought the bears to the island. The implication (which is unlikely to be expanded on) is that they used them to turn the wheel.

Dman001

Just thinking about the end of Season 4 when Ben turned the Wheel and they all went back in time. The island disappeared. Could it be that the island didn't disappear but is just underwater as we have seen in the Season 6 opener.

Ben turned the wheel, which brought the Losties back to 1973, who then brought the bomb to The Swan, which (I belive) blew up and somehow caused the island to "sink".

Fastforward to 2004 when the kate, Jack and Hurley are on the plane they look back and the island "disappears" but it is actually a underwater.

cooker3

Sad Professor wrote: »

Yeah, Cusick is no longer a series regular, so we are probably going to see even less of him than we did last season. He was technically a guest star in the premiere.

But how come he is still listed as a series regular in the credits?

blue_steel

7

Having watched the episode for a third time it is definitely in my top 5 of all time if only because it has the eeriest atmosphere since "the man behind the curtain".
However, I do think it’s amusing that so many people have taken the allocation of the numbers to six random characters as an "explanation" of anything.
Don't get me wrong, I loved the scene (imho a nod to Plato's essay about reality being as ephemeral the flickering of a fire on the walls of a cave) but it presents so many problems:
1. Jacob gives Kate a lunchbox and Sawyer a pen and somehow that is enough to guide them to the island 20 years later?
2. Jacob didn't even visit Hugo until after he'd left the island so how does that bring him to the island?
3. Even if Jacob's allocation of the numbers to the candidates is valid why are they later (or earlier?) used by Dharma as the code to dissipate the electro-magnetic energy?
But at least now I have hope that we will get satisfaction on all of this. After the first three episodes I was starting to panic a bit but I'm now looking forward to the rest of the season with gusto

Ian_K

9

Imo, assigning names to the numbers has confused things further rather than providing any kind of answer whatsoever!

Sad Professor

9

cooker3 wrote: »

But how come he is still listed as a series regular in the credits?

I don't really know why tbh. But they've often listed people in the main credits who technically weren't regulars. Davies and Leung were listed as "staring" in the credits of season 4 despite the fact that they were both actually guest stars at the time. (They didn't get regular status until season 5).

It was the same with Nikki and Paulo in season 3. In fact the perception that they were regulars was what provoked a lot of the controversy around them. They were always guest stars.

The press releases are a more accurate indicator of who is a regular and who isn't. And Cusick isn't listed on any of them this season. All this really means though is that he's only getting paid for the episodes he appears in.

Dempsey

6

The current explanation of the numbers is very weak imo

I hope that there is a deeper meaning than any of the characters ever thought.

Smoke Monster being anchored onto transformation is a very good point and so is the point about Sawyer being played just like Ben.

Jacob and MiB seem to want to stand to their beliefs (black and white theme) but in the current artistic climate I feel that it will come down to, one set of ideals vs. another set of ideals, both which the audience will agree with but cannot decide which they'd want more.

cooker3

Just thinking. I wonder are they following the template of season 1. The pilot was 2 hours long and flashbacks for everyone. Episode 3 was Kate centric and of course Episode 4 was Walkabout.
If they are then next up would be a Jack centric episode.

NukaCola

5

If there was no Alternative Timeline in this seasons episodes i would be much happier TBH. One thing about the flash backs was how the characters were linked in certain ways is carried into the Alt timeline where there seems to be IMO either no island or no jacob to influence them to come to it, but is looking more and more like "fan" episodes were we are supposed to get a kick out of Ben being a teacher and Ethan being a doctor etc etc. The numbers explanation was fairly poor but overall a good episode (apart from the alt timeline storyline which is mostly filler and going absolutely nowhere).

sapper

I may be stating the obvious here, but after this episode the name of the pirate ship in the middle of the island takes on a new meaning...ie The Black Rock

Further proof that the writers were going this way all along?

tony1kenobi

Dubs wrote: »

How does Jacob get to and from the island? Is it because he's magic or does he have his own personal yacht or something?

Bluetooth.

youngblood

sapper wrote: »

I may be stating the obvious here, but after this episode the name of the pirate ship in the middle of the island takes on a new meaning...ie The Black Rock

Further proof that the writers were going this way all along?

Please state the obvious
Cos its lost after all!
And I havent a clue what this new meaning is!!

blue_steel

7

I think the suggestion is The Black Rock ship has some connection with the black rock on the scales in the cave and thus the Man in Black. Nice idea actually

Mr.Nice Guy

7

I saw someone mention this on another site and found it intriguing...

What if the number for Shephard that MiB showed Sawyer wasn't referring to Jack but actually to Christian? Remember that Other guy Danny in one of the early seasons angrily remarked that Jack wasn't on Jacob's list.

Sad Professor

9

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I saw someone mention this on another site and found it intriguing...

What if the number for Shephard that MiB showed Sawyer wasn't referring to Jack but actually to Christian? Remember that Other guy Danny in one of the early seasons angrily remarked that Jack wasn't on Jacob's list.

Possible. But according to Patchy, Locke and Sayid weren't on the list either. I think we just have to assume the Others were referring to another list. That cave was pretty well hidden. I doubt the Others even knew about it. Richard seemed ignorant about "candidates".

purcela

8

sprinkles wrote: »

My first problem is with the numbers. They didn't explain them they just designated a name to them. What I want to know is how are those numbers the most important when there were clearly dozens up on the wall of the cave, yet the 6 numbers were the ones that Hurley won the lottery with, that were part of the beacon, hatch numbers etc... why not the other ones?

I totally agree with this. I don't understand why everyone thinks that the numbers are now explained. We have no idea why Lenny knew them and gave them to Hurley which he then won the lottery with. We have no explanation as to why they were on the transmission that Rousseau's team heard when they arrived to the island. We don't know why Dharma had those 6 particular numbers printed on the hatch, or why they were the numbers that had to be entered into the computer.

If the explanation is simply that the 6 people who those numbers correspond to in the cave are the 6 best candidates to replace Jacob, then in my opinion this is an extremely weak explanation, as all it serves to do is show that the producers intended on having 6 important people towards the end of the show, and wanted to be able to prove that they had known all along that those 6 were crucial to the end result. But up until this episode, the people assigned each number were interchangeable. And it still doesn't explain how or why Lenny and the Dharma Initiative used those numbers!

purcela

8

A couple of people have touched on the fact that Ben previously summoned the smoke monster to kill the mercenaries after Keamy murdered Alex. This would suggest that Ben has some kind of relationship with the smoke monster. Further corroborating this theory is the fact that in LA X, when the smoke monster killed Bram and the men with him, Ben was in the room (FLocke was clearly aware of this), yet smoke monster/FLocke didn't go near Ben. Also in season 5, Dead is Dead, a similar thing happened where Locke disappeared into the jungle and the smoke monster came out and left Ben unharmed.

Given that some people believe that smoke monster can't kill candidates, perhaps Ben Linus is a candidate, although his name wasn't on the cave wall and he clearly wasn't on Oceanic 815. Or is it because he was healed in The Temple as a child, and now has a major connection with Jacob or the island.

AnonoBoy

purcela wrote: »

Given that some people believe that smoke monster can't kill candidates, perhaps Ben Linus is a candidate, although his name wasn't on the cave wall and he clearly wasn't on Oceanic 815. Or is it because he was healed in The Temple as a child, and now has a major connection with Jacob or the island.

Smokey was using Ben as part of his loophole plot so while Ben might have thought he could summon Smokey he was really just being used, just as Locke and Richard were.

I'm really liking this Smokey guy I have to say. And Terry O'Quinn in brilliant in the role.

Dman001

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I saw someone mention this on another site and found it intriguing...

What if the number for Shephard that MiB showed Sawyer wasn't referring to Jack but actually to Christian? Remember that Other guy Danny in one of the early seasons angrily remarked that Jack wasn't on Jacob's list.

Since the Season 5 finale, I thought that Christian was more on Esau's side rather than Jacob's. He was seen in the cabin where we believe Esau was and he told Locke that he would have to move the island, which but Esau's Loophole plan into action.

umpsfar

9

on jacobs death.. ur wan took some of the ash, maybe for his resurrection, flock may have been told he can't kill him (jacob) but he can put him out of action for 3 days (the bible, on jesus's death) maybe maybe,,,

totally unrelated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60T_6ubNFp4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t8cpH6AbwQ&feature=related
maybe Flock is god and enjoys killing jesus/jacob

Spiritoftheseventies

7

yes a good episode. Wonder how many were on Jacobs list if it was his list.

me-skywalker

6

Im really liking MIB's contrats to Locke in respect to the fact that Locke loved the island, he thought it was magical and didnt want to leave.. while MIB hates it, calls it a prison and wants out.... althought Sad Profs idea that him calling it a prison is not metaphorical rather literal as he if he was let loose on the world he could cause some pain to people?

Hyzepher wrote: »

I think the 23 - Sheppard is not Jack but Christian...... If it is Christian then it would mean that both Jack and Kate are not candidates.
.

maybe these two are the skeletons in the cave from s1...

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Well yes there were clues in season 1 and 2 but I think most people only copped on to it last season.

http://www.lostisagame.com/

Sad Professor wrote: »

I love the Sawyer long con idea as well.

yea he might pretend to go along with MIB then kill him so that he himself can become the MIB? maaaybe.. its a strectch but would involve him learnign the source of MIB's powers and how to control them and also how to kill him.

Sad Professor wrote: »

Also, does anyone have any thoughts on the idea that the island is basically a prison for MIB? He talked about being trapped. Given the negative view of humanity he espoused to Jacob in front of the statue, him getting loose on the world might uh, bad.

That's not to say he was lying about once being a man, but that's clearly not the case anymore. Whatever he is now he's dangerous.

Maybe Jacob is like the warden. So "protecting" the island may be about keeping MIB on it.

Just a possibility.

Yea i have always thought this since the 'candidates' thing was mention about Lapidus first as most of the characters are strong willed and independant.

Richard not knowing would be to protect the 'candidate' themselves from knowing they were being tested.

sprinkles wrote: »

Good episode, not amazing though.
Secondly, the flash sideways all seems to be a little contrived imo. It's as if the writers are just shoe horning characters into roles in the alt reality...

But if you watch it properly you will see the subtle differences in the characters personality and attitutes that reflect everything we have learned about them for 5seasons. its intriguing to see were they are going with it.

Spiritoftheseventies

7

what seems to be a recurring them is Locke and the case of the knives and this mysterious hunting expedition. There is some significance to them in terms of the central plot

homerun_homer

9

purcela wrote: »

I don't understand why everyone thinks that the numbers are now explained.

If the explanation is simply that the 6 people who those numbers correspond to in the cave are the 6 best candidates to replace Jacob, then in my opinion this is an extremely weak explanation, as all it serves to do is show that the producers intended on having 6 important people towards the end of the show, and wanted to be able to prove that they had known all along that those 6 were crucial to the end result. But up until this episode, the people assigned each number were interchangeable. And it still doesn't explain how or why Lenny and the Dharma Initiative used those numbers!

It's not that people think they've now been explained, the numbers have become more relevant and have more significance since they are directly related to the 815ers. from this point on who knows how well they will be explained but it would be like trying to explain magic. Once you know how something is done it looses mystique and less interesting.

Mr.Nice Guy

7

me-skywalker wrote: »

http://www.lostisagame.com/.

Yes it seems this guy was right about quite a lot but do you not remember how most people on this board dismissed his ideas when they were first mooted? I do.

As I said most people only started to pick up on the game references last season.

popebenny16

6

i am starting to think that there is some similarity between the relationship that Sheppard and Locke have had and that between Jacob and Smokeman. Perhaps they are replacements, it has been suggested that Smokeman is showing signs that Lockes personality is somehow coming through.

Perhaps this will end with Jack on the beach and Locke walking towards him and they seeing a ship, plane or flying saucer is coming towards the island and followed by the sideways view of how their lives could have ended up off the island.

uncleoswald

7

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Yes it seems this guy was right about quite a lot but do you not remember how most people on this board dismissed his ideas when they were first mooted? I do.

As I said most people only started to pick up on the game references last season.

Yeah that was me and its still batsh*t mental. Not in the comparing Lost to a game part (although for me the game is only a metaphor, oh god I hope its only a metaphor) which has been mentioned by many people, but in the other 99.99% of the site. Yes he predicted some correct deaths but when you look at how he predicted those deaths it becomes nothing more then a curiositly fanboy site.

jimbling

9

I had been a bit disappointed up to this point with season 6, but this episode was absolutely brilliant. Pure quality.
I wont bother going into details as we're on the 5th page and it's been done to death. But exceptional. Here's hoping for more of the same tonight.

homerun_homer wrote: »

It's not that people think they've now been explained, the numbers have become more relevant and have more significance since they are directly related to the 815ers. from this point on who knows how well they will be explained but it would be like trying to explain magic. Once you know how something is done it looses mystique and less interesting.

Agreed.... I mean the numbers are explained to a certain extent really. We know the main numbers are allocated to the main "candidates" or some such. That could be arbitrary, or it could be the seat numbering on the plane etc.
How this correlates to the rest of the numbers mystique is pretty easy to explain. I'm not going to try, but lets just say you have demi-gods of some sort in Jacob and MIB, and you have a Time-Travelling Island. Not that hard to imagine scenarios that can explain how they kept popping up. I'm sure those details will come up in time.

Psychedelic

7

The writers said in the latest podcast that the numbers will

make an appearance again soon.