Try before you buy

daragh8008

Hi Folks,
hope someone could help me here. I always wanted to take up shooting and am now in a position to do so. However before racking up the expense and hassle I'd like to give it a try a few times, to make sure that its not just a passing fancy etc. Does anyone know a good club or range where I could take a few lessons in range shooting (at a reasonable cost) first. Better still if they are still taking members should I go the next step! Dublin area or surrounding counties would be best. Thanks

greenpeter

www.courthlough.com Its not a bad spot, they would help you get started.

daragh8008

Thanks. This looks good. Do they have a club there too or is it just for lessons and group trips?

greenpeter

As far as i know they are open for membership, give them a call and see what the crack is.
They should let you take out a gun and try it under super vision or if you join, i bought a few guns there and the chap there was very helpful (Liam) i think. He let me out to try them on a few clays which is a good thing. Anyway good luck let us know how you get on.

dCorbus

If you'd like to try out rifle shooting, head on up to Hilltop Shooting Club near Newtownmountkennedy in Wicklow.

That's how I got started myself.

http://www.pcquad.com/rifle.htm

They also do clays - so whether your interest lies in rifles or shotguns (or both), Hilltop is a good place to start and to get a "taster".

After that, contact some of the clubs and ranges around the country and ask to visit and be shown the facilities on offer. Chat to the shooters (Most, not all, but the vast majority, will be extremely helpful and welcoming and will point you in the right direction).

Hope that's of some help and Best of luck.

daragh8008

Thanks for the tips. Going to give these two a call tomorrow. Courtlough is closer to me but hilltop is cheaper! That said won't know exactly what you get untill I phone em as hilltop doesn't seem to define what a session is. Either way they both seem to be exactly what I'm looking for in terms of having a go first.

pullandbang

Also have a look at the ICPSA coaches - any of them will take you under their wing as beginner and give you a good session and advice regarding the different disciplines, gun fit etc.

daragh8008

well it only took a year! but at last I'm off to give shooting my first try in Courtlough. Looking forward to this!

homerhop

Hope the bug takes hold, hope you have a good day.

Thomasofmel

Enjoy, Courtlough is a good place to shoot

daragh8008

Great fun! Really enjoyed my time in Courtlough. The atmosphere was very relaxed and enjoyable. The staff there were great. They took the time to give you a fighting chance of hitting the clays and targets. I appreciated the way they let lots of clays go so as to show you where they were going to go and where to aim. Mind you still didn't manage to hit that many of them but sure I suppose thats par for the course. Then again with the rifle shooting after I managed to hit nothing with the first clips, they gave me a new rifle and an extra shots. (maybe because it wasn't aligned?) but still no penny pinching making or rushing you through. Great time had by all. Think I'll certainly be back to give it a few more goes. Couldn't figure out which I enjoyed more. The clays were great crack and very satisfying when you hit one spot on a shatter it to bits, but that said I enjoyed the preciseness of the rifle shooting. hmmmmmm things to think about!

the drifter

Hi all

Im in a similar position myself... where id like to try before i buy..im based in limerick though. Is there anywhere in the munster area like Courtlough?

sorry for the thread hi jack...

Thomasofmel

daragh8008 wrote: »

Great fun! Really enjoyed my time in Courtlough. The atmosphere was very relaxed and enjoyable. The staff there were great. They took the time to give you a fighting chance of hitting the clays and targets. I appreciated the way they let lots of clays go so as to show you where they were going to go and where to aim. Mind you still didn't manage to hit that many of them but sure I suppose thats par for the course. Then again with the rifle shooting after I managed to hit nothing with the first clips, they gave me a new rifle and an extra shots. (maybe because it wasn't aligned?) but still no penny pinching making or rushing you through. Great time had by all. Think I'll certainly be back to give it a few more goes. Couldn't figure out which I enjoyed more. The clays were great crack and very satisfying when you hit one spot on a shatter it to bits, but that said I enjoyed the preciseness of the rifle shooting. hmmmmmm things to think about!

Good to hear you enjoyed. I bought a .22 and a shotgun from Courtlough - and have found the staff (Liam etc) to be always very helpful. Take your time, go back few times and see what you enjoy. Practice is what you need and to get familiar with handling guns

fitzy700

drifter if your looking for some where to shoot in limerick
you could ring the lazy dog in knocklong co limerick they do clay shooting
06253563

bullets

daragh8008 wrote: »

Then again with the rifle shooting after I managed to hit nothing with the first clips, they gave me a new rifle and an extra shots. (maybe because it wasn't aligned?) but still no penny pinching making or rushing you through. Great time had by all. Think I'll certainly be back to give it a few more goes.

This is how I started out, I visited a range/club and I was allowed to hire a club gun and shoot!
but this was a few years ago and I'm not sure now if the Laws have changed.

I'm curious to know whats is the legal situation in doing this? is it a stereotypical grey area in Irish Law?

if someone does not have a license for a firearm and turn's up to a club or range can they legally be allowed to fire a Club/range firearm not licensed to them?

I have several people I know that
would love to actually Try Rifle Shooting BEFORE they apply for a license to see if they actually like it.
Some of them may have an interest in taking up a sport
but are not sure, others only want to fire a gun for the experience of being able to do it and to see what its like as a once off. ( I would hate to think I would have to resort to do the whole nudge nudge wink wink have a shot off of this while nobody is looking approach to things)

Clay pigeon grounds are advertised in hotels and outdoor activity centers
sometimes for Tourists coming to hotels where people can try clays for the day so people from other countries or from withing Ireland are already coming into Ireland and
using firearms without a license or club membership, but are there different regulations for specifically Rifle ??

it would seem pretty stupid if someone has to do a safety course that may not be officially recognized, apply for a license, buy a rifle, join a club without
ever firing a shot!!! or not knowing if they like the sport or if they dont fancy it.

I had got the impression with new laws/regulations etc
that clubs/ranges were not allowed offer walk in pay to shoot or day only memberships etc.

Could someone explain in what circumstance someone legally that has not applied for a license, or is not a firearms owner can actually try and shoot a few rounds to
see if they like it ?

ie If I bring a guest with me to a range such as a Girlfriend/Friend/Co-worker/brother/sister how would they within the law and all "above board" legally be able to fire a gun or my gun under my supervision ?

~B

Sparks

bullets wrote: »

I'm curious to know whats is the legal situation in doing this? is it a stereotypical grey area in Irish Law?

Current state is that for rifle and pistol, you are not permitted to have day memberships in clubs; so walking in and shooting isn't allowed under the Firearms Acts. Since the Range licences are still being taken up and the Club licences haven't been rolled out yet, it's all a bit hazy; but that's from the state of implementation, not the state of the law.
Shotgun's unaffected by all this though because shotgun shooting isn't target shooting under the law...

if someone does not have a license for a firearm and turn's up to a club or range can they legally be allowed to fire a Club/range firearm not licensed to them?

Short answer is yes, if they have to be a full member of the club. There are more details because that's coming off two or three different sections, not one specific section, but that's what it ends up as.

Clay pigeon grounds are advertised in hotels and outdoor activity centers
sometimes for Tourists coming to hotels where people can try clays for the day so people from other countries or from withing Ireland are already coming into Ireland and
using firearms without a license or club membership, but are there different regulations for specifically Rifle ??

Yes.

it would seem pretty stupid if someone has to do a safety course that may not be officially recognized, apply for a license, buy a rifle, join a club without
ever firing a shot!!! or not knowing if they like the sport or if they dont fancy it.

Well, here's one for you - how do you do the safety course if you can't fire the firearm?

Right now, WTSC gets around this by having provisional memberships during its beginners courses and then allowing those who pass to move off provisional membership; but that provisional membership isn't a day membership, it's full membership but without certain privileges (ie. being allowed shoot on the range without being under instruction during a course). It's an awkward stretch, but it fulfills the requirements. I'm not sure how other clubs do it, but there must be a workaround if they're charging for safety courses for rifles...

Could someone explain in what circumstance someone legally that has not applied for a license, or is not a firearms owner can actually try and shoot a few rounds to
see if they like it ?[/qutoe]
If (a) they're full members of the club, or (b) it's a clay pigeon shooting ground.

bullets

Sparks wrote: »

Right now, WTSC gets around this by having provisional memberships during its beginners courses and then allowing those who pass to move off provisional membership; but that provisional membership isn't a day membership, it's full membership but without certain privileges (ie. being allowed shoot on the range without being under instruction during a course). It's an awkward stretch, but it fulfills the requirements. I'm not sure how other clubs do it,

Cheers Sparks thanks for that.
Shotgun = Fine bring along the friends and relations
Rifle = some form of evil dangerous yoke

Fairly restrictive for people that may not know if they will like the sport or not! if they have to become a member of a club first.
I'd like my Mrs. to try shooting rifle to see if she would like it, but
would hate to think I'd waste a few hundred euro's joining her upto a club
if she just turned around after a few shots and said Nah! tis boring.

The provisional membership sounds like a good idea but it would still
mean someone would have to pay a club membership fee which could run expensive unless a club would not charge full whack until the provisional member passed the beginners course or decided they did not like shooting afterall.

Sparks wrote:

Short answer is yes, if they have to be a full member of the club. There are more details because that's coming off two or three different sections, not one specific section, but that's what it ends up as.

This is interesting as if a full member could fire a rifle that does not belong to them it could mean that this would cover two members of a club/range
being able to try each others firearms while at the club/range or for a member that does not own a firearm to be allowed to fire someones rifle while at the range.

~B

Sparks

bullets wrote: »

Cheers Sparks thanks for that.
Shotgun = Fine bring along the friends and relations
Rifle = some form of evil dangerous yoke

Yup, though I think it was the rumours of walk-in-and-shoot operations at pistol ranges that wound the PTB up, rather then rifle ranges.

The provisional membership sounds like a good idea but it would still
mean someone would have to pay a club membership fee which could run expensive unless a club would not charge full whack until the provisional member passed the beginners course.

Which is how we run it. You charge enough to run the course, pay their insurance, and maybe 10% more to kick into the club's capital expenditure fund (which is fair enough, if they join the club, they benefit); and if they go on to complete membership, then you charge them the "top-up fee" that covers their insurance for the rest of the year, the membership fee for the NGB and so forth.

This is interesting as if a full member could fire a rifle that does not belong to them it could mean that this would cover two members of a club/range
being able to try each others firearms while at the club/range or for a member that does not own a firearm to be allowed to fire someones rifle while at the range.

Covered under section 2(4)(d) since time immemorial (well, then 1960s anyway). Still covered today. But that does depend on the wording of your 2(5) authorisation, so it doesn't hold for all clubs automatically; and it's easy to write an authorisation to cover only club members and competitors to block that. Once the Range and Club licences are fully rolled out, expect to see that as a standard approach

daragh8008

Sparks wrote: »

Right now, WTSC gets around this by having provisional memberships during its beginners courses and then allowing those who pass to move off provisional membership; but that provisional membership isn't a day membership, it's full membership but without certain privileges (ie. being allowed shoot on the range without being under instruction during a course). It's an awkward stretch, but it fulfills the requirements. I'm not sure how other clubs do it, but there must be a workaround if they're charging for safety courses for rifles...

Just on this. I assume that most clubs would offer some sort of training/ safety induction? Is there a standard "recognised" course for rifle/shotgun shooting? Also one other question, which type of shooting has a good total beginner competition scene, airgun, .22, clays or all of the above?

Sparks

daragh8008 wrote: »

Just on this. I assume that most clubs would offer some sort of training/ safety induction?

Yes, with varying degrees of formality.

Is there a standard "recognised" course for rifle/shotgun shooting?

No. There are no courses at all in Ireland that are officially recognised by Irish authorities. There are some courses and instructors who are recognised by international shooting bodies, but none are recognised officially by the Irish PTB.

Also one other question, which type of shooting has a good total beginner competition scene, airgun, .22, clays or all of the above?

All of the above.

Bananaman

daragh8008 wrote: »

which type of shooting has a good total beginner competition scene, airgun, .22, clays or all of the above?

As Sparks said there is a fair bit of competition in all disciplines these days - the best place to start out in competition is in your own or other club shoots - the upcoming competitions thread in target shooting shows some of them - ask around - even on here to see what clubs have matches on to suit you

the NASRPC (www.NASRPC.ie) run competitions (across a wide range of disciplines that can be summarized as sporting rifle, benchrest rifle, gallery rifle, WA1500, centrefire pistol & smallbore pistol) on a National basis and classify all competitors based on their score and the are then only competing with other competitors of the same standard

this means that after someone has shot for a while and hopefully shot in a few club matches and decides they would like to progress to the interclub/national competition scene that they will only be compeiting with others of the same standard

as your score improves you progress through the classifications (no going back) until you reach X class - you wanna be up early to win a match there

the only exception to that is benchrest rifle where the firearms are classified, rather than the competitors and this is defined by the world body

B'Man

Bananaman

daragh8008 wrote: »

which type of shooting has a good total beginner competition scene, airgun, .22, clays or all of the above?

Bananaman wrote: »

As Sparks said there is a fair bit of competition in all disciplines these days - the best place to start out in competition is in your own or other club shoots

For example - I know my club - Hilltop (www.hilltopshootingsports.com) - has a multi discipline shoot Saturday week with shotgun, rifle & pistol events.

It depends what you shoot as to whether or not it will suit you and f course it depends where you are as to what would suit you

B'Man

Sparks

And it's not just the NASRPC either; there's the NTSA (there's an airgun match next weekend in UCD if you'd like to see airgun shot on electronic targets, and a .22 match the following weekend in Rathdrum, again on electronic targets); there's the ICPSA (with clay shoots run pretty much all over the place, all year round - they're the largest of the shooting sports bodies); there's the NRAI (who do all the long-range fullbore shooting stuff); and there are many other groups who look after different disciplines.

Probably the best advice though, might be to find your local club (whatever it happens to shoot) and go to them to take a quick look about and see what it's like. You might eventually join another club (it's not unusual to travel quite a distance to get to the club that suits you best - WTSC had people coming from Kerry and Cork and the North for quite a while because we were very active with competition and coaching at the time, and the MNSCI has members from all over the country because they're the best fullbore facility in the country right now), but it's still a good idea to see what's local, especially for just a casual look-see and maybe a bit of a chat.

daragh8008

Sparks wrote: »

.No. There are no courses at all in Ireland that are officially recognised by Irish authorities. There are some courses and instructors who are recognised by international shooting bodies, but none are recognised officially by the Irish PTB. All of the above.

That’s a bit odd. For a country that seems to want to hammer the S**t out of shooting sports you would think that they would have the meanest toughest training courses. You have to do driving lessons and a test. Why not shooting lessons & a test? I suppose that would mean the gov would have to invest money and recognise shooting as a legitimate pastime.

Bananaman

If run by the state it would be from the wrong perspective.
The purpose of the test would be to try to deny you the license as opposed to ensure you were ready for it.

There are many courses available - all with various pedigrees - talk to people in your club - find out who did what course and whether they found it useful.
The important thing is that you learn from it.

Personally, I have done most courses available - right up to instructor level - you learn from them all.

B'Man

daragh8008

Good point. I didn't think about it from that stance. I suppose if we had a fair goverment it might be worth while, but now that I think about it could easily be a usefull tool to deny people entrance to the sport of their choosing. Point taken.

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

If run by the state it would be from the wrong perspective.
The purpose of the test would be to try to deny you the license as opposed to ensure you were ready for it.

[sarcasm]Yes, the same way the driving licence test, pilot's licence test, ham radio licence test, and every other state licencing test is run.
Same way the one state-recognised course, the HCAP is run. All we ever hear about that test is how it fails everybody.[/sarcasm]
:rolleyes:

Yes, B'man, there are people in the PTB that dislike private ownership of firearms. Not many though, most just don't give a darn. Our problem in the last few years has been that because we had one or two extraordinarily incompetent people "representing" us to the PTB, we pissed off the uncommitted people in the PTB and then there was no support for us when the Minister decided to use us to look good in the media.

Could the state run a proper licencing test? Yes, if they put enough resources into it. There are established structures and standards that could be used to do this.

But, it's never going to happen because it would take resources that aren't there. And that's not likely to change while the IMF run things...

And by the way, the folk who'd be running a central test are far more sympathetic to us than the superintendents who are currently having to be taken to court by applicants - and those superintendents have far more authority to obstruct applications than any standard test ever would.

Bananaman

That is fine and is - of course - your opinion.

Bottom line is that there are courses out there that people can do if they wish. Many people have gone to seek a license, been told to do a course, done one or more of these courses, returned to the Gardai and gotten their license.

There is, and never will be, tacit approval of any course in particular but individual Gardai want the clubs involved in the vetting because if a club wont have you then they definitely wont.

Making you do a club course is one way of doing that - now they have mandated you must have club membership for some forms of license.


B'Man

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

Bottom line is that there are courses out there that people can do if they wish. Many people have gone to seek a license, been told to do a course, done one or more of these courses, returned to the Gardai and gotten their license.

Indeed, but -- and it's an important but -- doing such a course in order to fulfill the competency requirement for a licence application carries absolutely no guarantee. You can't do course X and then demand it be accepted as proof of competency - it's completely down to the whim of the Garda involved.

There is, and never will be, tacit approval of any course in particular

You're correct that there is no approval, even tacit, of any course - you are not correct that there never will be.
But to say it's a delicate thing to decide upon is understating the matter. You can't have a mandatory course run by a private group because of the financial issues surrounding a state-sanctioned monopoly; but you also can't have a requirement in law with no definition as to what can meet it. So it will eventually happen - but it is in everybody's interests to make sure it's done right, thought through correctly and not rushed.

For example, right now rrpc is perfectly correct - you don't have to do a course to satisfy the competency requirement at all, there are several other means by which it can be satisfied, from prior ownership of firearms, to applying for a training licence in order to learn. But we do tend to repeatedly push courses because that makes the most sense reading the legislation; but you have to ask, is that right just because it makes sense given our own personal biases?

but individual Gardai want the clubs involved in the vetting because if a club wont have you then they definitely wont.
Making you do a club course is one way of doing that - now they have mandated you must have club membership for some forms of license.

They have not. The Firearms Act has - you cannot get a firearms certificate for a pistol except for target shooting, and you cannot take part in target shooting except on a licenced range in a licenced club, and you cannot apply for the licence without listing a club, and that club has to keep mandatory attendance records for you. The wishes of the individual Garda have nothing to do with any of that.