Dunphy:Rooney the best player since Pele

Mr Alan

Archimedez wrote: »

Serious lack of Giggs.

LOL, no no no. I like Giggs, and as good as he has been, he's never hit the heights of the above players

Peyton Manning

Also add Van Basten.

JPA

m@cc@ wrote: »

I'm surprised given your choices, that you didn't include Cruyff.

And Platini and Van Basten,

Mr Alan

ha ha Cantona! ha ha

Peyton Manning

Mr Alan wrote: »

LOL, no no no. I like Giggs, and as good as he has been, he's never hit the heights of the above players

He's far surpassed anything Henry, Cafu, Laudrup, Ronaldinho and Rivaldo have achieved

Edit: Actually scratch Cafu, didnt mean to mention him there.

m@cc@

JPA wrote: »

And Platini and Van Basten,

I deleted my post as further analysis should Pele and Cruyff played around the same time. Platini is another one. Lothar Matthäus deserves an honourable mention at least.

Mr Alan

archi-but he was never as good as they were.

Bodhisopha

Archimedez wrote: »

He's far surpassed anything Henry, Cafu, Laudrup, Ronaldinho and Rivaldo have achieved.

But he's never been at any time considered one of the best 3 players in the world. Doubt Cafu was either to be honest.

Was Giggs even ever one of the best 10 players in the world at any one time? Doubtful.

Peyton Manning

Mr Alan wrote: »

but he was never as good as they were.

Rivaldo....better than Giggs...? Are you off your f*cking head?

m@cc@

Archimedez wrote: »

Serious lack of Giggs and Cantona, or does the EPL not count?

Ah man, I love Cantona as much as the next person. But football legend? No chance.

Mr Alan

archi-yes, for a few years, he was.

eZe^

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'd add Portugeese fella Ronaldo too.

Disagree, hasn't made legend status yet. He's approaching it though, along with the likes of Messi/ Xavi.

Archimedez wrote: »

Also add Van Basten.

Agreed 100%

JPA wrote: »

And Platini and Van Basten,

Indeed.

I knew I'd forget some serious contenders. There's no way Cantona is going on that list, but Giggs could definitely be a contender, as well Del Piero, and even Shearer. I'm sorry if the list is heavily biased towards Italy/ Spain.

Peyton Manning

m@cc@ wrote: »

Ah man, I love Cantona as much as the next person. But football legend? No chance.

Ok, so maybe Cantona was not the best candidate, but if the list that eze posted is to be taken as correct, then Giggs is definitely up there without a shadow of a doubt.

m@cc@

Mr Alan wrote: »

archi-yes, for a few years, he was.

Rivaldo had a few great seasons but doesn't belong on a legends list as far as I'm concerned.

Mr Alan

eZe^ wrote: »

Disagree, hasn't made legend status yet. He's approaching it though, along with the likes of Messi/ Xavi.

In fairness, i've never really seen anything like his last 3 seasons, he's a freak.

SlickRic

right now, he's playing the best stuff i'm seeing in the world. at this moment in time.

a couple of things though...

1) people belittling Ronaldo's achievements in that 40+ season are being ridiculous. Rooney played his part, but he wasn't the reason. i'd hazard a guess that Ronaldo would have scored at least 30-35 whether Rooney was there or not.

Rooney is the better all-round player though, at this moment. he's not as skilful, or quite the goal threat, but all-round he is superior.

2) Dunphy is a genius. He knows Rooney's not near the standard he's suggesting. and no right thinking football fan would think he is. he has the ability to become 'a great' alright, but he's surpassed none of the games greats yet.

3) arguing that Rooney is better than Messi. because he's carrying Utd is just ludicrous. if a non-utd fan ever claimed that they'd have the head bitten off.

Messi's achieved more, and if both men retired tomorrow he's be called the greater player. end of.

but once again...

kudos to Dunphy.

Rob113

Rooney has been incredible for the past few months but he has a way to go to be considered an all time great. He would be my first name in any team, but i think he needs another couple of seasons like this one before he can be labelled the best in the world. Yes he sacrificed himself for Ronaldo but if he was so superior then Ronaldo would have been the one sacrificed for the sake of the brilliance of Rooney. If united had had a stronger midfield then both could have played in their best positions and that would have been incredible.

leninbenjamin

Bodhisopha wrote: »

You are misrepresenting me.

Funny that you should make that a key component of your dismissal of my argument. I seem to remember you mentioning me has having implied a certain JOS was better than Rooney earlier. :rolleyes:

Bodhisopha wrote: »

I never said Rooney didn't do good things that Ronaldo benefited from, that would be ridiculous. A lot of what he did do was what you don't want from one of your most attacking minded players, and it neutered him to a large extent at times. But, because he's english and he did it well, it's praised.

So a forward dragging defenders out of position is bad? A forward holding up the ball is bad? Pressing defenders is bad all of a sudden? Jesus, that counter argument is ridiculous. And 20 goals a season is neutered?

Bodhisopha wrote: »

I never said it doesn't matter who you play for, jesus christ! I said it's stupid to say player A is better than player B because player A is playing very well in a poorer team. That is stupid logic and could be used to discredit pretty much any great player of the last 20 years.

That's a bit rich. Since we were judging Ronaldo by the goals he scored I made the point that United haven't as creative a team as Real when it comes to creating chances. I was merely pointing out how it's not comparing like for like. You're the one doing the misrepresenting.

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Applying your logic Villa is better than Rooney. But Villa hasn't tested himself in the Champions League? I know! Isn't he great!

Poor example, as i do think Villa is better than Rooney.

What the ****? How does Villa come into our discussion? What 'example'? There is no point having a debate unless you are willing to develop your arguments a bit.

And for what it's worth, Villa plays on a team with pretty creative players such as Mata, Silva and a payer with an unreal ability to hold up the ball in Zigic. So he gets his share of opportunities.

Peyton Manning

eZe^ wrote: »

Disagree, hasn't made legend status yet. He's approaching it though, along with the likes of Messi/ Xavi.

Cristiano Ronaldo is more deserving of a place on that list than Ronaldinho.

eZe^

Oliver Kahn, Figo, Schmeichel, Raul, are all debatable too. Beckenbauer was around the same time as Pele, so we'll leave him out. We're definitely forgetting somebody really obvious.

davyjose

SlickRic wrote: »

3) arguing that Rooney is better than Messi. because he's carrying Utd is just ludicrous. if a non-utd fan ever claimed that they'd have the head bitten off.

Messi's achieved more, and if both men retired tomorrow he's be called the greater player. end of.

In fairness, I think anyone claiming Rooney was the best in the world - myself included - were talking about the last couple of months. Maybe, at a stretch, the season.

davyjose

eZe^ wrote: »

I knew I'd forget some serious contenders. There's no way Cantona is going on that list, but Giggs could definitely be a contender, as well Del Piero, and even Shearer. I'm sorry if the list is heavily biased towards Italy/ Spain.

Definitely not Cantona, but maybe Shearer???

You've made a mistake in your calculations there.

SlickRic

Archimedez wrote: »

Cristiano Ronaldo is more deserving of a place on that list than Ronaldinho.

are you serious?

did i dream up the seasons Ronaldinho was voted the best player in the world, while being Barcelona's icon, much like Messi is at this moment?

i don't think he's the elite of the elite or anything, but he's more deserving of the Portuguese fella; as much as i believe he's a freak of nature himself.

m@cc@

Maradona
Ronaldo
Zidane
Henry
Laudrup
Romario
Ronaldinho
Platini


Honourable mentions: Matthäus, Van Basten, Rummenigge

Bodhisopha

leninbenjamin wrote: »

Funny that you should make that a key component of your dismissal of my argument. I seem to remember you mentioning me has having implied a certain JOS was better than Rooney earlier. :rolleyes:



So a forward dragging defenders out of position is bad? A forward holding up the ball is bad? Pressing defenders is bad all of a sudden? Jesus, that counter argument is ridiculous. And 20 goals a season is neutered?




That's a bit rich. Since we were judging Ronaldo by the goals he scored I made the point that United haven't as creative a team as Real when it comes to creating chances. I was merely pointing out how it's not comparing like for like. You're the one doing the misrepresenting.



What the ****? How does Villa come into our discussion? What 'example'? There is no point having a debate unless you are willing to develop your arguments a bit.

And for what it's worth, Villa plays on a team with pretty creative players such as Mata, Silva and a payer with an unreal ability to hold up the ball in Zigic. So he gets his share of opportunities.

Ok, your comprehension skills are clearly a little off so this will be my last response to you as it is pointless.

My JOS comment wasn't me misrepresting you, it was me applying your logic. Understand the difference?

Regarding Rooney dragging defenders out of position? I clearly said he did a good job on that but quite often he was doing work where you wouldn't want one of your most attack minded players to be doing "donkey work", unless of course he was dragging defenders all the way back to his teams box. A lot of what he did he did well, but he shouldn't have been doing it. If he wasn't english we'd be asking ourselves what the hell is this guy up to?

Villa came into it as i was, again, providing an example using logic i have seen you apply, in all seriousness i might add.

eZe^

Archimedez wrote: »

Cristiano Ronaldo is more deserving of a place on that list than Ronaldinho.

I really disagree. Ronaldinho for 2 seasons was THE most incredible player I've seen in my lifetime. Better than Zidane in any of his best seasons, better than Ronaldo, better than anyone since Maradona. I included him mainly because of the fact that he made football entertaining for everyone. \

My Gran would enjoy watching football if Ronnie was playing from 2004 to 2006. I did say he was arguable, because he wasn't as consistent as a Giggs, but he has more talent than any player on that list (bar Diego). That's my rational anyway, he saw football as an art, and was effective as well as entertaining for any spectator. I can't really express how I feel properly right now, so I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across. If I can do so later I'll write more on his inclusion.

Peyton Manning

SlickRic wrote: »

are you serious?

did i dream up the seasons Ronaldinho was voted the best player in the world, while being Barcelona's icon, much like Messi is at this moment?

i don't think he's the elite of the elite or anything, but he's more deserving of the Portuguese fella; as much as i believe he's a freak of nature himself.

Ronaldos previous 3/4 years have been at a higher level than what Ronadinho played at his best 3/4 season peak. Ronaldo's 42 goal season was the best season I have ever seen by a player in my life. Thats my reason for picking him over Ronaldinho. Its my opinion.

Mr.Nice Guy

The lack of Bergkamp on this thread saddens me.

JPA

Well done dunphy. This is the fastest growing thread (apart from match threads) I've seen in a while.

SlickRic

Archimedez wrote: »

Ronaldos previous 3/4 years have been at a higher level than anything Ronaldinho played at.

i know it's your opinion but i just think that's not true.

and is slightly disrespectful to how sensational Ronaldinho was.

and again, i think Ronaldo is phenomenal.

see eZe's post above yours; no point in me repeating!

eZe^

Archimedez wrote: »

Ronaldos previous 3/4 years have been at a higher level than anything Ronaldinho played at.

Couldn't disagree more, see above.

davyjose wrote: »

Definitely not Cantona, but maybe Shearer???

You've made a mistake in your calculations there.

Well, I'm not going to lie, I watched fcuk all EPL in the 90's, but any player that has 380 goals at a very high level deserves a mention no? Any knowledgeable premier league fans seem to rave about him non stop, whereas it's really only United supporters who would elevate Cantona to legend status.

eZe^

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The lack of Bergkamp on this thread saddens me.

Good shout.

Bodhisopha

eZe^ wrote: »

Couldn't disagree more, see above.




Well, I'm not going to lie, I watched fcuk all EPL in the 90's, but any player that 380 goals at a very high level deserves a mention no? Any knowledgeable premier league fans seem to rave about him non stop, whereas it's really only United supporters who would elevate Cantona to legend status.

Shearers lack of impact in the worlds premier club competition rules him out. Which is a shame, really.

Melion

Can we ban the first person to mention Henrik Larsson?

Peyton Manning

eZe^ wrote: »

Couldn't disagree more, see above.

Eze, I think you're a great poster and all that, but dont pull that "see above" malarky. You only said in the previous post that you thought he was the best, and that your gran would have enjoyed watching him play. The Ronaldino phenomenom was huge, but the Ronaldo phenomenom was even bigger. He entertained people to the same degree as Ronaldinho, achieving far more silverware while doing so, and amassing a far greater number of goals. Everyone was claiming that United were a one man team at that stage, lets not forget that man was Ronaldo, and he won damn near everything in sight.

MisterAnarchy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The lack of Bergkamp on this thread saddens me.

And the lack of almost any player from 1970-1985

m@cc@

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

And the lack of almost any player from 1970-1985

When do you think Pele retired?

d22ontour

eZe^ wrote: »

We're definitely forgetting somebody really obvious.

A handful of Milan players imo.

Melion

Archimedez wrote: »

Eze, I think you're a great poster and all that, but dont pull that "see above" malarky. You only said in the previous post that you thought he was the best, and that your gran would have enjoyed watching him play. The Ronaldino phenomenom was huge, but the Ronaldo phenomenom was even bigger. He entertained people to the same degree as Ronaldinho, achieving far more silverware while doing so, and amassing a far greater number of goals. Everyone was claiming that United were a one man team at that stage, lets not forget that man was Ronaldo, and he won damn near everything in sight.

Have you considered that maybe the Ronaldo phenomenon was only big in the UK and Ireland?

MisterAnarchy

m@cc@ wrote: »

When do you think Pele retired?

I know well what year he retired from club football but he gave up international football in 71.
Perhaps I should have said 1977-87 so.

Mr Alan

i love Bergkamp, probably my favourite ever non-liverpool player, but if you're talking about an exclusive list of the best player since Pele, he shouldn't be near it. If he is then it opens it up for the likes of gerrard, scholes, keane, pires, lampard etc.

JPA

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Shearers lack of impact in the worlds premier club competition rules him out. Which is a shame, really.

While Cantona... oh wait.

Peyton Manning

Melion wrote: »

Have you considered that maybe the Ronaldo phenomenon was only big in the UK and Ireland?

lol are you serious?

m@cc@

Melion wrote: »

Have you considered that maybe the Ronaldo phenomenon was only big in the UK and Ireland?

That'll be why 80,000 fans packed the Bernabeu to greet his signing and he was voted World Player of the Year.

m@cc@

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

I know well what year he retired from club football but he gave up international football in 71.
Perhaps I should have said 1977-87 so.

In which case Platini, Cruyff and Maradona have been mentioned.

Melion

m@cc@ wrote: »

That'll be why 80,000 fans packed the Bernabeu to greet his signing and he was voted World Player of the Year.

10'000 - 20'000 showed up at St. James' to welcome Michael Owen to Newcastle.

Peyton Manning

Melion wrote: »

10'000 - 20'000 showed up at St. James' to welcome Michael Owen to Newcastle.

Amazing what people do when theyre desperate.

eZe^

Roy Keane is definitely an arguable inclusion.

Archimedez wrote: »

Eze, I think you're a great poster and all that, but dont pull that "see above" malarky. You only said in the previous post that you thought he was the best, and that your gran would have enjoyed watching him play. The Ronaldino phenomenom was huge, but the Ronaldo phenomenom was even bigger. He entertained people to the same degree as Ronaldinho, achieving far more silverware while doing so, and amassing a far greater number of goals. Everyone was claiming that United were a one man team at that stage, lets not forget that man was Ronaldo, and he won damn near everything in sight.

Ok, where to begin. Sorry if I didn't go into enough detail. As I said, Ronaldinho had more natural talent than any player who has ever played football since Diego Maradona (imo). While Ronaldo entertains, Ronaldinho was on another planet. It's really not fair to bring Ronaldo's goal scoring record into the equation, because that's not what this is about. Ronaldinho had everything, passing ability better than Xavi, an ability to beat players at will with ridiculously audacious skill. Do you actually remember the things he did? Ronaldo hardly won 'far more silverware', he has one more league titles, but doesn't have a world cup medal.

Wait a second... I'm arguing about C. Ronaldo vs Ronaldinho here... Are you talking about Ronaldo De Lima. Haha, if that's the case then I'm very sorry. If that's the case then I'd agree that Ronaldo was a bigger legend then Ronaldinho. (although I'll stand by the natural talent statement)

m@cc@ wrote: »

Cruyff

Ding ding motherfcuking ding. HOWWWW did I leave out arguably one of the top 5 players ever to play the beautiful game.... I'm actually ashamed.. haha

m@cc@

Melion wrote: »

10'000 - 20'000 showed up at St. James' to welcome Michael Owen to Newcastle.

Newcastle is in the UK.

MisterAnarchy

m@cc@ wrote: »

In which case Platini, Cruyff and Maradona have been mentioned.

Fair enough,I'll throw in Zico too.